More fun thoughts from our Calvinist friends:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_jKudID3k&feature=channel
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
Many a person who holds to the notion that they save themselves which would be the only reason that God saves them say that Calvinism would make God unjust because everyone *deserves* a chance for salvation. Think about this for a second. What they are saying is that the One you have sinned against is *obligated* to offer you complete pardon or He is not just. Does this make any sense? Of course it doesn't. All He is obligated to give us seeing that we are guilty before Him is hell if He certainly is just.
When you press the opposition on this issue, what they are essentially objecting to is very often the notion that everyone is born guilty in Adam (original sin). They don't understand what *guilty* is, and they want to make God into less of a just being than we would expect our normal traffic court judge to be. This notion that people *deserve* a chance to be pardoned would be much like someone who has been declared guilty by a court of murdering someone and sentenced to the death penalty. The person who is claiming that God would be unjust if He didn't give the person who's sinned against Him an option for pardon would have to hold that the judge who sentenced the man who was clearly guilty of murder would be unjust by not giving the man the option to walk free if the man wanted to. It boggles the mind that there are people out there who would hold that the latter situation doesn't make sense yet they hold the Creator of the judge to a lower standard regarding justice than they do the human judge in our scenario!
The above speaker is making the case for why God is not obligated to save anyone - because we are all sinners. Even though God created us this way. Even though God knew we would all be sinners. Even though God intended it all to work out this way. And this is fair and just because God is fair and just.
This cuts right to the heart of the matter - we are all sinners, God created the world so that we would sin, yet God hates sin. Why would the world be in this state if God did not intend it? And why would God then blame us and hold us responsible? Truthfully, we will be accountable for what we will do. We must repent from our sins. Yet God set it all up this way. I would suggest it is a giant training lesson. We are still in school, and no where near graduating yet.
Discuss.
God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:
QuoteMany a person who holds to the notion that they save themselves which would be the only reason that God saves them say that Calvinism would make God unjust because everyone *deserves* a chance for salvation. Think about this for a second. What they are saying is that the One you have sinned against is *obligated* to offer you complete pardon or He is not just. Does this make any sense? Of course it doesn't.
Indeed it doesn't make sense mr. Sadinism.
God is no respector of persons. That means He makes no difference between anyone in His creation.
Maybe I'm nitpicking a little here but choosing a few people for eternal bliss in heaven and other for eternal torture does sound slightly unequal to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 07:52:05 PM
God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:
Good points as always WW. God has given us promises:
- He is Love
- He loves His entire creation
- He is willing to save the world
- He does not lie
- He will not fail
We can all imagine some kind of an evil tyrant God that purposely creates humanity, puts them in a world similar to this one, and then sends almost every single human to eternal torment in fire upon death. (Hey this sounds like the God of mainstream Christianity) If God did not give the above promises, then we could expect nothing of him. He would not be obligated to save anyone. But because He has given us these promises, He has made the obligation Himself!
QuoteThe person who is claiming that God would be unjust if He didn't give the person who's sinned against Him
All sinned.
Quotean option for pardon would have to hold that the judge who sentenced the man who was clearly guilty of murder would be unjust by not giving the man the option to walk free if the man wanted to.
Same crime, same time.
But you probebly where a Sout African judge in the old days. The darker the skin the higher the degree of punishment for the same crime.
QuoteIt boggles the mind that there are people out there who would hold that the latter situation doesn't make sense yet they hold the Creator of the judge to a lower standard regarding justice than they do the human judge in our scenario!
You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 08:09:18 PM
You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...
Agreed... I don't know why but this kind of silly illogical argument gets me in a slightly angered state... it motivates me to spread the UR message more - but I just don't know how to effectively. So many people are misled and are eating this gobbly-gook up. Yet they struggle with it - its so sad.
Side question - is there anything special you need to do to add a comment to a youtube video? For some reason I can't add one, to most any video. I've tried firefox and IE.
Peace...
Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 08:09:18 PM
You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...
Agreed... I don't know why but this kind of silly illogical argument gets me in a slightly angered state...
If I would put on a Christian hat I would say the HS inside of you stirs Himself...
Quoteit motivates me to spread the UR message more - but I just don't know how to effectively.
I fear it's of not much use.
Most people that believe that stuff are very dedicated. Their knowledge is lightyears ahead of mine. But still they don't see the conflicts. I see some conflicts. I guess I'm not hindred by any knowledge :laughing7:
I think the most effective would be to have some clear to-the-point hard hitting verses and proves for the doubters that are a little open to it. When there is a small breach in the defences.....
You already know what their questions will be. -> The top 10 fire verses.
QuoteSo many people are misled and are eating this gobbly-gook up.
Hitler said the bigger the lie the easier it's to believe. It seems he was at least right once in his life...
QuoteSide question - is there anything special you need to do to add a comment to a youtube video? For some reason I can't add one, to most any video. I've tried firefox and IE.
The w
Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:12:44 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 08:09:18 PM
You can't base a correct conclusion on faulty logic...
The whole basis for their argument is that God did not mean for the fall of man to happen; yet in the same breath say that God ordained all things and who will be saved and who will not. The contradictions are endless in christendom
Grace and peace
WW already said it. God obligated himself by making the promise.
Haven't looked at the rest of the responses yet. Just an immediate knee jerk reaction to the title of the thread: So, because God is bigger, wiser, and richer, and let's not forget the Sovereign, we're to understand from the Calvinist that different laws of parenting apply to God? A Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own?? Show me the philosophy professor that wouldn't flunk someone's rear end on that kind of logic! as well as walk away thanking God that they're not a Christian with such twisted thinking that's supposed to be sanctified reasoning and a renewed mind.
They'll rejoice and thank God for their supposed reprobation as they go from there to care for others and to write another book on the rational of unbelief. What ever happened to the Scriptures in their thinking of being conformed to the image of Christ and being an imitator, or in the KJV vernacular, follower of God? If we're to follow St. Paul as St. Paul follows Christ, does this mean that St. Paul taught irresponsibility for one's own? Sovereignty multiplies the responsibility rather than diminishes it. Even if God weren't love, but were merely a God of love as the Calvinist has always twisted the Scriptures into saying, to the degree that He had any access to love whatsoever there would be the pressure to do all within His own power to satiate that love in the well being of those cared about.
Ah, but then there's the occasional twisting of Scripture that some will try to get into with John 17 and their ideas of an elect that everlastingly excludes everyone else, but without getting into the nausiating details of that, the important factor is that John 17 says that with the glory of God in the Church through Christ Jesus throughout all ages, as the book of Ephesians will likewise include this concept brought out in John's Gospel, the purpose told to us in John 17 is so that the world will believe. Now, if the world believes, are we to conclude that it's the faith of demons in the Calvinist paradigm and what the Calvinists think of that in their paradigm? If we go there, then whose to say the very Calvinist talking with us isn't speaking with the faith of a demon since they're from this world?
If they are, does something not scream in their hearts that they would hope that God would be better than their theology at least to them and their loved ones? And if to them, then why not to others and to the whole world? Thankfully, the Scriptures are abundantly clear that because the Blood was shed for all, and because Jesus is the covenantal ransom for all, therefore all must come under the yoke of Christ in the fullness of time and we're assured in the Scriptures that His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He always leads us in triumph in Christ Jesus! The Calvinist's view of eschatology when it enters into their view of eternity necessarily makes Christ Jesus a liar Who said He was meek and lowly of heart, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and that we would have rest for our souls. It necessarily requires the modern Calvinistic invention of God lobotomizing everyone in heaven to keep them from ever remembering how far grace didn't reach.
On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account. And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments. Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos. So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet. I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly. Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software. I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted. And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later. YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that. I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby. When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s. You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far. Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 23, 2009, 11:37:13 PM
Haven't looked at the rest of the responses yet. Just an immediate knee jerk reaction to the title of the thread: So, because God is bigger, wiser, and richer, and let's not forget the Sovereign, we're to understand from the Calvinist that different laws of parenting apply to God? A Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own?? Show me the philosophy professor that wouldn't flunk someone's rear end on that kind of logic! as well as walk away thanking God that they're not a Christian with such twisted thinking that's supposed to be sanctified reasoning and a renewed mind.
They'll rejoice and thank God for their supposed reprobation as they go from there to care for others and to write another book on the rational of unbelief. What ever happened to the Scriptures in their thinking of being conformed to the image of Christ and being an imitator, or in the KJV vernacular, follower of God? If we're to follow St. Paul as St. Paul follows Christ, does this mean that St. Paul taught irresponsibility for one's own? Sovereignty multiplies the responsibility rather than diminishes it. Even if God weren't love, but were merely a God of love as the Calvinist has always twisted the Scriptures into saying, to the degree that He had any access to love whatsoever there would be the pressure to do all within His own power to satiate that love in the well being of those cared about.
Ah, but then there's the occasional twisting of Scripture that some will try to get into with John 17 and their ideas of an elect that everlastingly excludes everyone else, but without getting into the nausiating details of that, the important factor is that John 17 says that with the glory of God in the Church through Christ Jesus throughout all ages, as the book of Ephesians will likewise include this concept brought out in John's Gospel, the purpose told to us in John 17 is so that the world will believe. Now, if the world believes, are we to conclude that it's the faith of demons in the Calvinist paradigm and what the Calvinists think of that in their paradigm? If we go there, then whose to say the very Calvinist talking with us isn't speaking with the faith of a demon since they're from this world?
If they are, does something not scream in their hearts that they would hope that God would be better than their theology at least to them and their loved ones? And if to them, then why not to others and to the whole world? Thankfully, the Scriptures are abundantly clear that because the Blood was shed for all, and because Jesus is the covenantal ransom for all, therefore all must come under the yoke of Christ in the fullness of time and we're assured in the Scriptures that His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. He always leads us in triumph in Christ Jesus! The Calvinist's view of eschatology when it enters into their view of eternity necessarily makes Christ Jesus a liar Who said He was meek and lowly of heart, that His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and that we would have rest for our souls. It necessarily requires the modern Calvinistic invention of God lobotomizing everyone in heaven to keep them from ever remembering how far grace didn't reach.
I like your initial knee-jerk response! :happy3:
Here is my initial knee-jerk response: He created us didn't he? Why on earth would he
not save us? This is assuming he is GOOD, ALL-POWERFUL and SOVEREIGN. If He is those things, then he will save us. Seems pretty straight-forward.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 12:00:07 AM
On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account. And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments. Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos. So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet. I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly. Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software. I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted. And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later. YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that. I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby. When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s. You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far. Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.
Thanks Martin. I have an account and I am logged in. I didn't realize that the video owner had the option to reject your comments. I will have to go back to several video's I attempted to leave comments for. From other comments I've read, it looked like you could just post anything. But perhaps not...
So far it seems like I've only successfully posted 1 comment in about 20 attempts or so, but I will have to double check.
Quote from: martincisneros on April 23, 2009, 11:37:13 PMA Christian is worse than an infidel if he doesn't care for his own at any cost to his/her own personal comfort, but God's somehow not worse than a devil if He doesn't take care of His own??
This really gets me. Apparently humans are more loving than our infinite God because no human father would torment their own child for a week let alone eternity. Yet when it comes to God the father of all, they have no problem attributing the worst torture mankind can think of to him.
Are humans more loving than God?
No no you are using "human logic" they will say. Human logic is not God's way. It doesn't apply to God, His ways are higher than ours, so even though ET may not make sense, it is still right for God to do it.
ARGHH! :BangHead:
You better believe God's ways are higher than man's ways!... they have no idea.
Peace.
Quote from: legoman on April 24, 2009, 01:45:39 AM
Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 12:00:07 AM
On the question about adding comments to a YouTube video, first you've got to have an account. And then you've got to add a comment to a video that's still accepting comments. Sometimes the page doesn't immediately post the comment, presumably the person who uploaded the video reserving the right to moderate comments posted to their videos. So, if you've got an account at YouTube and have tried to leave a few comments that wouldn't necessarily have been declined, then go back and see if your comments were approved yet. I'm not sure if it's a limitation or an automatic on someone having to approve additional comments, but I'm thinking multiple comments from me haven't been accepted on some videos if I tried to post the second one too quickly. Some time between comments rule or whatever with their antispam software. I was being goofy in response to one poster, but then wanted to seriously answer the question posed in the video, but had to move on when the second comment wasn't accepted. And then try to remember of the dozens of folks I've subscribed to there exactly where that particular video's at for trying again later. YouTube's got whole movies if anybody's got the broadband and wasn't aware of that. I watched The Incredible Hulk Returns a few evenings back with Bill Bixby. When I have a chance I'm going back to see StarMan with Jeff Bridges from the 80s. You just click on the Shows tab and select the movie option on the left and it'll take you to the limited selection they have so far. Just found it this week and am not sure if it's a building collection or an alternating collection.
Thanks Martin. I have an account and I am logged in. I didn't realize that the video owner had the option to reject your comments. I will have to go back to several video's I attempted to leave comments for. From other comments I've read, it looked like you could just post anything. But perhaps not...
So far it seems like I've only successfully posted 1 comment in about 20 attempts or so, but I will have to double check.
Haha I figured it out! Apparently youtube comments doesn't like it when you include a web page address. Without the web address my comments work fine.
Youtube hell videos, look out, here I come... :bigGrin:
Quote from: legoman on April 24, 2009, 01:50:38 AM
No no you are using "human logic" they will say. Human logic is not God's way. It doesn't apply to God, His ways are higher than ours, so even though ET may not make sense, it is still right for God to do it.
ARGHH! :BangHead:
I have heard that response also. And it makes no sense. Didn't God create us to be in relationship with him? And to be able to understand God better than that? And didn't God say to us, "come let us reason together" ?
If we are not capable of understanding how God reasons, then why that verse? I think we are capable of thinking the way God thinks about things, and of understanding or knowing what God thinks about this or that. To include doctrines.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on April 25, 2009, 12:16:36 PM
I have heard that response also. And it makes no sense. Didn't God create us to be in relationship with him? And to be able to understand God better than that? And didn't God say to us, "come let us reason together" ?
If we are not capable of understanding how God reasons, then why that verse? I think we are capable of thinking the way God thinks about things, and of understanding or knowing what God thinks about this or that. To include doctrines.
Exactly.
Isaiah 55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
This verse is meaning there are things about God's plan that we don't understand because He is omniscient and we are not. For example...
If God is working all things for the ultimate good:
- why are their evil men who abuse and murder little children?
- why did Hitler have to torture and kill millions of people?
etc.
What the above verse is telling us, even though we can't see it right now, that good will even come from the most evil acts that have occured.
The above verse should
not be used to justify something obviously cruel to us (ie. infinite punishment/torment), and instead to call that something "good", just because God "apparently does it". Woe to those that call evil good and good evil. Those that call hell "good" are deceived.
Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 01:59:55 PM
Isaiah 55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But
we have the mind of Christ.
Believe it, and walk in victory. What we believe is our reality.
If you believe you don't have the mind of Christ, and don't know HIS thoughts (I and the father are one), your belief will manifest your reality. A life of defeat, not measuring up.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass;
he shall have whatsoever he saith. Pro 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall
eat the fruit thereof.
I AM has no "i'm not".
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the
heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?
If you are a firefighter,, are you obligated to save those victims burning in buildings?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 07:08:05 AM
If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?
Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.
Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.
And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.
And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 29, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 07:08:05 AM
If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?
Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.
Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.
And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.
And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??
Whoops...
I was being sarcastic, thinking that the answer you gave was already evident. Thanks for your thoughts, though.
I just read this morning and it is a perfect answer for this statement/ post to me , the Word sure does keep us in line with Gods desire for us that are trying to live in Christ image and likeness .
For me ,and my own :2c: I believe that is what is wrong with mankind , they do not want to read the Bible much less obey it , if they stay ignorant of GODS law they do not have to change but keep the best of both worlds and that is not possible the scriptures says , we will love one and hate the other , we basically will love evil and hate the good or love the good and hate the evil , but we first have to know what the evil GOD hates is first in order to want to change for the better ,and be like the Lord and have a heavenly Father to honor .
Colossians 3 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
3 If then you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.
3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.
5 So kill (deaden, [a]deprive of power) the evil desire lurking in your members [those animal impulses and all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]: sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites, unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness, for that is idolatry (the deifying of self and other created things instead of God).
6 It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will),
7 Among whom you also once walked, when you were living in and addicted to [such practices].
8 But now put away and rid yourselves [completely] of all these things: anger, rage, bad feeling toward others, curses and slander, and foulmouthed abuse and shameful utterances from your lips!
9 Do not lie to one another, for you have stripped off the old (unregenerate) self with its evil practices,
10 And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it.
11 [In this new creation all distinctions vanish.] There [c]is no room for and there can be neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, [nor difference between nations whether alien] barbarians or Scythians [[d]who are the most savage of all], nor slave or free man; but Christ is all and in all [[e]everything and everywhere, to all men, without distinction of person].
12 Clothe yourselves therefore, as God's own chosen ones (His own picked representatives), [who are] purified and holy and well-beloved [by God Himself, by putting on behavior marked by] tenderhearted pity and mercy, kind feeling, a lowly opinion of yourselves, gentle ways, [and] patience [which is tireless and long-suffering, and has the power to endure whatever comes, with good temper].
13 Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive].
14 And above all these [put on] love and enfold yourselves with the bond of perfectness [which binds everything together completely in ideal harmony].
15 And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].
16 Let the word [spoken by] Christ (the Messiah) have its home [in your hearts and minds] and dwell in you in [all its] richness, as you teach and admonish and train one another in all insight and intelligence and wisdom [in spiritual things, and as you sing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody to God with [His] grace in your hearts.
17 And whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in [dependence upon] His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him.
18 Wives, be subject to your husbands [subordinate and adapt yourselves to them], as is right and fitting and your proper duty in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives [be affectionate and sympathetic with them] and do not be harsh or bitter or resentful toward them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this is pleasing to the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not provoke or irritate or fret your children [do not be hard on them or harass them], lest they become discouraged and sullen and morose and feel inferior and frustrated. [Do not break their spirit.]
22 Servants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not only when their eyes are on you as pleasers of men, but in simplicity of purpose [with all your heart] because of your reverence for the Lord and as a sincere expression of your devotion to Him.
23 Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily (from the soul), as [something done] for the Lord and not for men,
24 Knowing [with all certainty] that it is from the Lord [and not from men] that you will receive the inheritance which is your [real] reward. [The One Whom] you are actually serving [is] the Lord Christ (the Messiah).
25 For he who deals wrongfully will [reap the fruit of his folly and] be punished for his wrongdoing. And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what a person's position may be, whether he is the slave or the master].
My logic. I apologize for only skimming the rest of the replies.
God made us in His image and likeness. He tells us through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit, through nature, that He loves us.
We read in the Bible that Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8
If we are told that He counts every hair on our head; that we are worth much more than the sparrows and the lilies; that even if our mother and father forsake us, that He will never forsake us; that He will leave the 99 and look for the one that is lost....
We all have sinned and deserve death.....yet, Jesus came to conquer death...that will be the last thing that is brought under His submission. He came to save us, and died a horrible death to do so.
As I see it, love and truth bind us together. No, He does not have to save anyone, but by His nature, by His Word, and by His great Love, He will save us. That is what Grace is....our undeserved gift of grace. Given, though we do not deserve it.
Romans 5:
...7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!...
D.
Psalms 102;19,20 [16-22] THE LORD LOOKED DOWN FROM HIS SANCTUARY ON HIGH FROM HEAVEN HE VIEWED THE EARTH
TO HEAR THE GROANS OF THE PRISONERS AND RELEASE THOSE CONDEMNED TO DEATH. :2c:
On the image of God, I read that it is actually it is the Greek aorist tense. Essentially it would actually say God is making and not has made. Apparently the same way I AM is used. The same for John 3:16...
16for God did so love(Should be loves as He STILL loves us) the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing(Notice it is PRESENT tense, still going on, and not Past. Regarding these verses as PAST tense is incorrect, apparently) in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Same for Hebrews 4:10(got Concordant version online site somewhere)
10 For he who is entering into His stopping(Should be thought of as PRESENT tense apparently. Same for when most translations have past tensed words like rested, believed, stretched, shall be as current, etc. These should be more better written as: is restING, is believING, is stretchING, WILL be saved as a future event - Kingdom and not now. That is what faith is for right now, I think, but need more studying on it to be more conclusive.) he also stops from his works even as God from His own.
We are also on that seventh day right now. As God IS ceasing His works(physically) we are also CEASING our works, and having peace/rest in Him, guarded by Him with the mind of Christ, which surpasses all understanding( I am thinking worldly wisdom)(Phil 4:6)
Hebrews 10:1
1For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near
This is why we are not to do things like the sabbath, physical religious rituals, religious junk stuff, etc. Why? Because these things are a mere SHADOW of things to COME! We fulfill the sabbath SPIRITUALLY. How? By RESTING our own works, and doing HIS in us! How much greater are the things of now a mere shadow of Heavenly things to come?
God's my 2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 29, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 07:08:05 AM
If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?
Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.
Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.
And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.
And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??
:iagree:
Quote from: Dandelion on April 29, 2018, 07:04:52 PM
My logic. I apologize for only skimming the rest of the replies.
God made us in His image and likeness. He tells us through the Bible, through the Holy Spirit, through nature, that He loves us.
We read in the Bible that Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8
If we are told that He counts every hair on our head; that we are worth much more than the sparrows and the lilies; that even if our mother and father forsake us, that He will never forsake us; that He will leave the 99 and look for the one that is lost....
We all have sinned and deserve death.....yet, Jesus came to conquer death...that will be the last thing that is brought under His submission. He came to save us, and died a horrible death to do so.
As I see it, love and truth bind us together. No, He does not have to save anyone, but by His nature, by His Word, and by His great Love, He will save us. That is what Grace is....our undeserved gift of grace. Given, though we do not deserve it.
Romans 5:
...7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!...
D.
:iagree: Salvation is of God ,
Some were made already , some are made now and all will be made to know the salvation of God
Many examples are for everyone's learning the ways of God
Quote from: sheila on April 29, 2018, 07:39:14 PM
Psalms 102;19,20 [16-22] THE LORD LOOKED DOWN FROM HIS SANCTUARY ON HIGH FROM HEAVEN HE VIEWED THE EARTH
TO HEAR THE GROANS OF THE PRISONERS AND RELEASE THOSE CONDEMNED TO DEATH. :2c:
16 When the Lord builds up Zion, He will appear in His glory;
17 He will regard the plea of the destitute and will not despise their prayer.
18 Let this be recorded for the generation yet unborn, that a people yet to be created shall praise the Lord.
19 For He looked down from the height of His sanctuary, from heaven did the Lord behold the earth,
20 To hear the sighing and groaning of the prisoner, to loose those who are appointed to death,
21 So that men may declare the name of the Lord in Zion and His praise in Jerusalem
22 When peoples are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to worship and serve the Lord.
23 He has afflicted and weakened my strength, humbling and bringing me low [with sorrow] in the way; He has shortened my days [aging me prematurely].
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days, You Whose years continue throughout all generations.
25 At the beginning You existed and laid the foundations of the earth; the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 They shall perish, but You shall remain and endure; yes, all of them shall wear out and become old like a garment. Like clothing You shall change them, and they shall be changed and pass away.
27 But You remain the same, and Your years shall have no end.
28 The children of Your servants shall dwell safely and continue, and their descendants shall be established before You.
:iagree: Amen , the bigger picture
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 09:05:52 PM
On the image of God, I read that it is actually it is the Greek aorist tense. Essentially it would actually say God is making and not has made. Apparently the same way I AM is used. The same for John 3:16...
16for God did so love(Should be loves as He STILL loves us) the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing(Notice it is PRESENT tense, still going on, and not Past. Regarding these verses as PAST tense is incorrect, apparently) in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Same for Hebrews 4:10(got Concordant version online site somewhere)
10 For he who is entering into His stopping(Should be thought of as PRESENT tense apparently. Same for when most translations have past tensed words like rested, believed, stretched, shall be as current, etc. These should be more better written as: is restING, is believING, is stretchING, WILL be saved as a future event - Kingdom and not now. That is what faith is for right now, I think, but need more studying on it to be more conclusive.) he also stops from his works even as God from His own.
We are also on that seventh day right now. As God IS ceasing His works(physically) we are also CEASING our works, and having peace/rest in Him, guarded by Him with the mind of Christ, which surpasses all understanding( I am thinking worldly wisdom)(Phil 4:6)
Hebrews 10:1
1For the law having a shadow of the coming good things--not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near
This is why we are not to do things like the sabbath, physical religious rituals, religious junk stuff, etc. Why? Because these things are a mere SHADOW of things to COME! We fulfill the sabbath SPIRITUALLY. How? By RESTING our own works, and doing HIS in us! How much greater are the things of now a mere shadow of Heavenly things to come?
God's my 2c:
Yes , we wait on the Lord to show us all , as we learn of Him and His ways :dsunny:
Everyone is being subjected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil first , after we learn not to touch it no more .
Our hope is in the tree of Life that being Jesus Christ
Day One
Just as the light was hidden by the darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God hidden by the flesh of man
but then ...
just as the darkness is now hidden by the light ..... so is the flesh of man now hidden by the Spirit of God
but then ...
just as the light is separated from darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God separated from the flesh of man
and it is not until this is understood in our mind and believed in our heart that this separation has taken place in us ... (before we actually do physically die, have that separation take place) "because it first took place at the cross" ... can we be moved into Day Two,
moved into the firmament to understand that all of mankind, from the beginning to now, have been, are being and will be ..... moved/removed from darkness into light ..... moved/removed from the flesh of man to the Spirit of God ..... moved/removed from the spirit of man into the Spirit of God
The Glory of God ... I believe ... is His work in us ... and it is because of that work in me/us can I/we rejoice and have hope that it will be accomplished
I believe the six days of creation is the creation of the first Adam (mankind) into the last Adam (the body of Christ) and being in God's seventh day, His Day of rest, is to understand His process in us (His plan in us) that it will be accomplished, it is in His accomplishments that He rests in and we are to do the same ..... be still and know I am God ..... know the "I am" ..... know God
my :2c:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 04:28:26 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 29, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 29, 2018, 07:08:05 AM
If your own children are drowning, are you obligated to save them?
Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him?
I think earthly parental love can show us a lot about God's Love.
Only someone very disturbed or evil would harm or kill their own child, and we all abhor the idea of it.
And if on earth we would make laws that would charge the parents with neglect or worse, murder if they were to stand by and not save their child from drowning or another life threatening situation, then God, whose ways are higher than ours, who gives better gifts that loving parents on earth, and who IS love (isn't just loving, but is pure sacrificial love) would certainly go above and beyond what the most loving human parent would do for their child. I'm certain I would die for my children and many parents probably would or have for theirs.
And earthly parents suffer alongside their children when their children suffer, how much more so would God suffer if any of his children were tortured forever, at His hands no less??
Whoops...
I was being sarcastic, thinking that the answer you gave was already evident. Thanks for your thoughts, though.
Hi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.
:gimmefive:
QuoteHi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.
:gimmefive:
:gimmefive: :bump:
Quote from: jugghead on April 29, 2018, 10:10:32 PM
Day One
Just as the light was hidden by the darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God hidden by the flesh of man
but then ...
just as the darkness is now hidden by the light ..... so is the flesh of man now hidden by the Spirit of God
but then ...
just as the light is separated from darkness ..... so is the Spirit of God separated from the flesh of man
and it is not until this is understood in our mind and believed in our heart that this separation has taken place in us ... (before we actually do physically die, have that separation take place) "because it first took place at the cross" ... can we be moved into Day Two,
moved into the firmament to understand that all of mankind, from the beginning to now, have been, are being and will be ..... moved/removed from darkness into light ..... moved/removed from the flesh of man to the Spirit of God ..... moved/removed from the spirit of man into the Spirit of God
The Glory of God ... I believe ... is His work in us ... and it is because of that work in me/us can I/we rejoice and have hope that it will be accomplished
I believe the six days of creation is the creation of the first Adam (mankind) into the last Adam (the body of Christ) and being in God's seventh day, His Day of rest, is to understand His process in us (His plan in us) that it will be accomplished, it is in His accomplishments that He rests in and we are to do the same ..... be still and know I am God ..... know the "I am" ..... know God
my :2c:
:iagree:
I do not believe many are thinking like this bro :2c: just a few , like you and I and have known a few also .
There are not to many internatizers , the Word to be eaten and ingested and made to sustain the inner man of the heart
The kingdom of God is near and within you , you are the temple of the Living God and Eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life within you , The Christ in you the hope of glory , lots many are not able to consider as real
Many believe it is to be outwardly :dontknow: Some other time and place and peoples , not nows ..timing is off ect :2c:
We can only believe as to what we are given by the Holy Spirit witness ,,, Just believing , in the Salvation of all , has its persecutions
I believe the Sabbath Day rest is the 1000 year reign of our Lord Jesus Christ by His greater and finished work of fulfilling all things completely and perfectly within the parameters of HIS WORD BY HIS SPIRIT [ His own body Holds everything dead & alive within Himself ,promise /covenant ] Making everything living and new .Till GOD BE ALL IN ALL. He alone absolves death with His own Life ..Only God can give the increase :HeartThrob:
a numerical or other measurable factor forming one of a set that defines a system or sets the conditions of its operation.
"the transmission will not let you downshift unless your speed is within the lower gear's parameters"
MATHEMATICS
a quantity whose value is selected for the particular circumstances and in relation to which other variable quantities may be expressed.
STATISTICS
a numerical characteristic of a population, as distinct from a statistic of a sample.
God never changes , he just changes us all :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on April 30, 2018, 07:08:32 AM
QuoteHi ML! I was just agreeing to your post and adding to it—I knew you didn't really mean it as a question to be answered, it was rhetorical.
:gimmefive:
:gimmefive: :bump:
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: awe :grouppray:
I love the being in the Holy Spirit & fire for God as you share and it sets us all ablaze :dsunny: ALIVE It is the best place ever ... I wonder if the hot /zealous /passionate is to make us more aware ? , being cold /lazy and lack empathy is just miserable like dead in our sinful state maybe ?
My thoughts about the two different fires :2c: , one of idolatry that praise God and curse mankind and only concerned about their own salvation and their own kind but care little about anyone else :sigh: the Holy Spirit and fire is of Gods love and jealousy to save everyone every where all the time even now to have the good of God working in them all and though them all , hopeful and thrilled about the salvation of God ...
Maybe the spirits are like fires that does set the whole world ablaze , one is evil the other is good ? and to know what manner of spirit we are of ?
The Lord would rather ,,we be HOT/zeal OR COLD /inert , because the lukewarm state is the puke warm / halfheartedness metaph. of the condition of the soul wretchedly fluctuating between a torpor and a fervour of love = spue out of His mouth rejection :2c:
Rev 3
13 He who can hear, let him listen to and heed what the Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).
14 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea/ write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation:
15 I know your [record of] works and what you are doing; you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot!
16 So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!
17
For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I am in need of nothing; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.18 Therefore I counsel you to purchase from Me gold refined an
d tested by fire, that you may be [truly] wealthy, and white clothes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nudity from being seen, and salve to put on your eyes, that you may see.
19 Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten [I discipline and instruct them]. So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude].20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears and listens to and heeds My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will eat with him, and he [will eat] with Me.21 He who overcomes (is victorious), I will grant him to sit beside Me on My throne, as I Myself overcame (was victorious) and sat down beside My Father on His throne.
22 He who is able to hear, let him listen to and heed what the [Holy] Spirit says to the assemblies (churches).
It sounds like the last day church is stuck in the middle and have not overcome the world or tongue as yet :sigh:
James 3 this fire and tongue is of gehenna judgment , only GOD can tame , God help us all :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:
Quote from: darryl on May 01, 2018, 03:36:53 PM
he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:
Thanks Darryl , That is what amazing grace is all about eh? ... GOD IS LOVE ,So He gives of His self :HeartThrob:
The word 'grace' (CHEN in Hebrew, CHARIS in Greek), as it is used in the scriptures, literally means 'favour', to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior. ... His grace has been termed 'Unearned kindness' but it is more than an attitude of favour or mercy.
:dsunny: :banana:
Quote from: rosered on May 01, 2018, 04:19:00 PM
Quote from: darryl on May 01, 2018, 03:36:53 PM
he is not obligated but He's love so He does save all... :dsunny:
Thanks Darryl , That is what amazing grace is all about eh? ... GOD IS LOVE ,So He gives of His self :HeartThrob:
The word 'grace' (CHEN in Hebrew, CHARIS in Greek), as it is used in the scriptures, literally means 'favour', to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior. ... His grace has been termed 'Unearned kindness' but it is more than an attitude of favour or mercy.
Love this thread - there's a very good George Macdonald sermon related to this, specifically on Job, http://www.online-literature.com/george-macdonald/unspoken-sermons/22/ . A few portions below - the point being that there is nothing wrong with obligation, and in truth, it's something perfectly father-like. Saying that God is under no obligation to his creatures/children is just another pharisaical attempt to distance ourselves from God because we have a sinful inclination to flatter God, in the same way we would an awful tyrant - treating him like a man to be flattered and who cares about the praise of men.
"The grandeur of the poem is that Job pleads his cause with God against all the remonstrance of religious authority, recognizing no one but God, and justified therein. And the grandest of all is this, that he implies, if he does not actually say, that God owes something to his creature. This is the beginning of the greatest discovery of all--that God owes himself to the creature he has made in his image, for so he has made him incapable of living without him. This, his creatures' highest claim upon him, is his divinest gift to them. For the fulfilling of this their claim he has sent his son, that he may himself, the father of him and of us, follow into our hearts. Perhaps the worst thing in a theology constructed out of man's dull possible, and not out of the being and deeds and words of Jesus Christ, is the impression it conveys throughout that God acknowledges no such obligation. Are not we the clay, and he the potter? how can the clay claim from the potter? We are the clay, it is true, but his clay, but spiritual clay, live clay, with needs and desires--and rights; we are clay, but clay worth the Son of God's dying for, that it might learn to consent to be shaped unto honour. We can have no merits--a merit is a thing impossible; but God has given us rights. Out of him we have nothing; but, created by him, come forth from him, we have even rights towards him--ah, never, never against him! his whole desire and labour is to make us capable of claiming, and induce us to claim of him the things whose rights he bestowed in creating us. No claim had we to be created: that involves an absurdity; but, being made, we have claims on him who made us: our needs are our claims. A man who will not provide for the hunger of his child, is condemned by the whole world."
"He is not a God to accept the flattery which declares him above obligation to his creatures; a God to demand of them a righteousness different from his own; a God to deal ungenerously with his poverty-stricken children; a God to make severest demands upon his little ones! Job is confident of receiving justice. There is a strange but most natural conflict of feeling in him. His faith is in truth profound, yet is he always complaining. It is but the form his faith takes in his trouble. Even while he declares the hardness and unfitness of the usage he is receiving, he yet seems assured that, to get things set right, all he needs is admission to the presence of God--an interview with the Most High. To be heard must be to have justice. He uses language which, used by any living man, would horrify the religious of the present day, in proportion to the lack of truth in them, just as it horrified his three friends, the honest pharisees of the time, whose religion was 'doctrine' and rebuke. God speaks not a word of rebuke to Job for the freedom of his speech:--he has always been seeking such as Job to worship him. It is those who know only and respect the outsides of religion, such as never speak or think of God but as the Almighty or Providence, who will say of the man who would go close up to God, and speak to him out of the deepest in the nature he has made, 'he is irreverent.' To utter the name of God in the drama--highest of human arts, is with such men blasphemy. They pay court to God, not love him; they treat him as one far away, not as the one whose bosom is the only home. They accept God's person. 'Shall not his excellency'--another thing quite than that you admire--'make you afraid? Shall not his dread'--another thing quite than that to which you show your pagan respect--'fall upon you?'"
Thanks for the post itivino, was interesting to read. When I get back home from work I'm going to read the rest of the sermon.
Pat
Thanks itivino :HeartThrob:
For sharing George Macdonald , that was so interesting , for Him to be writing in the Spirit over 120 years ago what he understood !
It still applies to this day .... I love it when they consider the new creatures in Christ , I have always wondered if by the same nature as to being little lambs of GOD following the good shepherd Our Lord Jesus Christ ,
knowing He come as a little lamb in to the world to be rejected of mans wisdom , of the serpents mind , but come as a gentle creature led to the slaughter , to take away the sins of the whole world ,
as we also are born again of the Spirit to a new and living way as gentle doves / spirits / and lambs need to be raised by an authority over them to survive , alone become prey for the wolves as the Good Shepherd seeks them by their innocent cries , the wolves nature of a beast that is very carnal and runs on threat and instinct and hunger , they can appear to be so tame at times and yet can turn in a instant on anything that threatens their pack mentality as they run in groups and always roaming to rise up kill and eat . They can even be cruel to one another over food sources ..
I have also considered everything is purposed in God , the anointing to be as God sees fit to bring about His Word being fulfilled , no creature born can say , God why did you make me like this ?
All are made weak in the sense that they cannot survive without God giving them sustenance and a drive to survive .
Everything works together for the good of those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose , God is the way and truth and Life in what ever way these creatures new and old come to an end will finally know for what purpose they were created for GODS GLORY To be made known on earth as it is in heaven .
I also thought of Peters dream when he was withholding mercy on the gentiles [nations ] other than his own kind and was not Gods will .
According to the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 10, Saint Peter had a vision of a vessel (Greek: σκεῦός, skeuos; "a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners")
full of animals being lowered from heaven (Acts 10:11).
A voice from heaven told Peter to kill and eat, but since the vessel (or sheet, ὀθόνη, othonē) contained unclean animals,
Peter declined. The command was repeated two more times, along with the voice saying, "What God hath made clean, that call not thou common" (verse 15) and then the vessel was taken back to heaven (verse 16).
At this point in the narrative, messengers sent from Cornelius the Centurion arrive and urge Peter to go with them.
He does so, and mentions the vision as he speaks to Cornelius, saying "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28). Peter related the vision again in Acts 11:4-9.
ALL of God creatures great and small glorify God , cruel or innocent in nature , made by God Himself , whom is the ONE and ONLY ONE that can purpose them according to His own desires , For me :2c: I have certainly changed my mind about what God can and cannot do with His own things and in this process of changing have finally accepted by faith to wait on the Lord to show us in His timing what is , and what was and what will be .
The blood of the lamb has made what all life , red blood stained by sin nature , as gathered up in a brilliant white covering /sheet / vessel to be gathered into heaven , in my own judgement / opinion , and learning not to fret and sweat the silly things that can and does divide us all as adversaries and enemies of Jesus Cross . as we take up our own cross and follow the Lamb where ever He goes if that is also our course ....
the rev 14
3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.
And no one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins.
They follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
For me it is because those firstfruits of the increase of Gods grace [ head /authority to lay down and form the body of Christ as a living thing in the earth and good ground , that the seeds of heaven , were scattered in the earth and made even more fruit to God in a number that cannot be even be measured by a number by anyone !!! :banana: :dsunny:
Rev 7
9 After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
10 In loud voice they cried, saying, [Our] salvation is due to our God, Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb [to Them we owe our deliverance]!
11 And all the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders [of the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures, and they fell prostrate before the throne and worshiped God.
12 Amen! (So be it!) they cried. Blessing and glory and majesty and splendor and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and might [be ascribed] to our God to the ages and ages (forever and ever, throughout the eternities of the eternities)! Amen! (So be it!)
13 Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come?
14 I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are [now] before the [very] throne of God and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary (temple); and He Who is sitting upon the throne will protect and spread His tabernacle over and shelter them with His presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun smite them, nor any [d]scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to the springs of the waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Itivino and Rose,
Good posts!
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 07:52:05 PM
God was never obligated to save even one. He wasn't obligated to create us either.
But now He is obligated because He made a promise.
Not living up to that promise would be a lie.
Suggesting that is more of a heresy than UR in my little book. :dbook:
Yeah, God not being true to himself is impossible.