Fear and Calamity

[trettep]

Luk 13:1  There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Is this a guarantee that we will not suffer calamity if we follow God's will via repentance?

Paul

[jabcat]

I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.

God's blessing, James.

[peacemaker]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

peacemaker

[sparrow]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

peacemaker

I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.

[trettep]

I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.

God's blessing, James.

Please expound upon that.

Paul

[trettep]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

peacemaker

So are you saying they suffered this because they didn't repent? If not, then why did they suffer it?

Paul

[trettep]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

peacemaker

I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.

I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this.  But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).

I'm trying to understand your position more.  Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them?

Paul

[sheila]

 Hi Paul

  He that brings the calamity..also delivers from it


   Isaaih 65;20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days,

   nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child

shall die a hundred years old;but the sinner being a hundred

years old,shall be accursed.

   This is talking about the regeneration...the child is referring

to the child of God...and the old man of sin is just that. As long

as these two seeds dwell in the earth[human] for the totality of

  the man's life on earth. The sinner [old man] whether the

human lives to be a hundred is still considered accursed.

And any 'infant' or babe in Christ will not fail to finish out his

days[eternal life] even though he die at a hundred years of age.

  wheat and tare in same vessel

[trettep]

Hi Paul

  He that brings the calamity..also delivers from it


   Isaaih 65;20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days,

   nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child

shall die a hundred years old;but the sinner being a hundred

years old,shall be accursed.

   This is talking about the regeneration...the child is referring

to the child of God...and the old man of sin is just that. As long

as these two seeds dwell in the earth[human] for the totality of

  the man's life on earth. The sinner [old man] whether the

human lives to be a hundred is still considered accursed.

And any 'infant' or babe in Christ will not fail to finish out his

days[eternal life] even though he die at a hundred years of age.

  wheat and tare in same vessel

Sheila, then tell me why did Jesus say UNLESS you repent you shall LIKEWISE perish?  Is He not implying that if we DO repent that we shall NOT likewise perish?

Paul

[sheila]

 Hi Paul

  we can perish as a 'babe/infant in our understading of  Christ.

  Perish as the 'old man' of sin...die like the beast.Or we can

  repent and die for the Glory of God..putting the old man

  of sin to death. But it is appointed for all men to die once.


   Now did the apostles/disciples repent? Yes, did they die?

  according to the flesh..though they have the gift of eternal life

   by the spirit.


   Perish IN THE SAME MANNER...these men of Israel were in

  open revolt against the authorities over them, let none of you

  suffer as an evil doer.Better to suffer for righteousness sake

  They were in open revolt against Pilate..Pilate sought to

release Jesus,didn't want his blood on his hands,judged him as

unworthy of death


   TIME AND UNFORSEEN OCCURANCE BEFALLS US ALL

  is all I  have to reply to  about the tower that fell

   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts, Sheila  :thumbsup: I never caught that about the infant before. I love Him and His Word. It still thrills me 23 years later. Blessings...

[Cardinal]

I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this.  But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).

I'm trying to understand your position more.  Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them? Paul

:cloud9: Hi Paul; if I may interject something here, the rain (His Spirit that raises up) falls on the just (wheat/Christ) and unjust (tares/man of sin) equally. He does this to present us with a choice EVERY single time, ie. choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

Now if you look at this being IN people controlling their actions, the same is also true; "good" people have calamities come upon them (just ask Job), and "bad" people get blessed sometimes (Moses was a murderer).

God works things out according to His good pleasure, seeing the end from the beginning. There is another level beyond choosing the outward good according to the appearance realm/law, which is why Jesus broke the law (worked on Sabbath, disciples ate with unwashed hands, ect.), yet fulfilled in perfectly in the Spirit.

It is all designed to get our focus off the natural and onto the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, or as He told Abraham, walk before Me and be thou perfect. Blessings...

[jabcat]

I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.

God's blessing, James.

Please expound upon that.

Paul

Because, as I've said before, I believe we often take things out of context and try to apply them directly and exactly to other situations.  At the very least, many things Jesus said were primarily directed to the Jewish nation who were about to lose their place of privilege;  He was about to die, rise again, and then the gospel would go to the nations...Israel would be set aside for a season, us, the gentiles, would be given the privilege of being grafted in because of Israel's (temporary) blindness...until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved... :dontknow:, it's scripture, I just haven't exactly quoted or listed the chapters/verses. 

IMO, we often take those statements, made primarily to certain individuals/groups, and try to make them primarily apply to us, to whom they may or may not be primarily intended.  I won't get into another big struggle about this, because some will apparently continue to do it...but hopefully someone reading this and other threads will remember to place things in proper context, and we will have an increase in properly cutting the Word of truth.  Trying to do that myself...I'm sure I miss it sometimes.

Like I said, I haven't explored these particular scriptures in detail, for this particular discussion.  My point is, before I started trying to draw conclusions from a few verses Jesus said, I think it would be necessary to take all this into consideration...that's for me...if others wish to discuss it without doing so, then IMO, we can get into apples and oranges and just perpetuate doctrinal confusion.  MAYBE NOT IN THIS CASE, but I am trying to raise an awareness of the need for context and properly cutting scripture as we discuss. 

Carry on as desired, I'll get out.  Responding to your request to elaborate.

[jabcat]

I'll say one more quick thing  :mblush:.  I like Card's post and approach (not saying others haven't made points I like, but illustrating).. in that, perhaps there's often a spiritual principle/another layer/a lesson to learn, even if something's primarily directed at another group or individual...I just think we need to look at the whole context before we jump in up to our eyeballs.  I especially need to, because I'm not the best swimmer :help:. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks, Jab.....there's a spiritual understanding of EVERY WORD and LETTER in there. How could there not be, seeing how it all CAME from a Spirit?  :laughing7: Blessings...

[trettep]

Thanks for the comments.  So how do we overcome fear? 

Paul

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He "supernaturally" delivers us of it. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. Man is in bondage to fear of death (of dying to self) all of His days. Perfected love casts out all fear; no greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends. Abraham was called God's friend because he laid down his "life" (promise) on the altar. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Eyes on Jesus.  Absorbing all He is, all He's done and does for us.  There's "wonder-working power in the blood".

[bobf]

IMO, we often take those statements, made primarily to certain individuals/groups, and try to make them primarily apply to us, to whom they may or may not be primarily intended.  I won't get into another big struggle about this, because some will apparently continue to do it...

jab some of us have a different view of scripture than what you've just described and so we do not do what you are saying haphazardly, it is done conciously.

I was taught the same kinds of things you talked about above.  Things like:

• OT is to Israel but for our learning. 

• The 4 Gospels are to Israel but for our learning.

• Paul epistles are to the church and not Israel.

• Different dispensations. 

• Different gospels for Jews and Gentiles.

• Pay attention to whom it is written.

• Context, Context. etc.

It is not for unawareness of these things that some of us (me) do that.  It is due to disagreement them altogether.

but hopefully someone reading this and other threads will remember to place things in proper context, and we will have an increase in properly cutting the Word of truth.  Trying to do that myself...I'm sure I miss it sometimes.

I don't find that NT writers followed these rules of "context" and "to whom it's written" when quoting and applying scripture.  I believe they understood and interpreted scripture by the Spirit of God and routinely broke these rules of "good" hermeneutics.

[jabcat]

Well, Brother Bob, thanks for being so clear.  This particular thread is not the place to continue pursuing this discussion, we're getting close to hijacking Paul's thread  :spank:.  Briefly, I believe we need to rightly handle the Word of God whether in this thread, or other areas of our life.  Probably none of us has that completely figured out.  However, IMO, not doing so causes and adds to confusion.  I have a thread called "Context of Scripture" if any of us would like to pursue this particular topic further, or of course, please feel free to start your own. 

[bobf]

Well, Brother Bob, thanks for being so clear.  This particular thread is not the place to continue pursuing this discussion, we're getting close to hijacking Paul's thread  :spank:.  Briefly, I believe we need to rightly handle the Word of God whether in this thread, or other areas of our life.  Probably none of us has that completely figured out.  However, IMO, not doing so causes and adds to confusion.  I have a thread called "Context of Scripture" if any of us would like to pursue this particular topic further, or of course, please feel free to start your own. 

I responded in your thread jab.

[sparrow]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

peacemaker

I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.

I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this.  But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).

I'm trying to understand your position more.  Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them?

Paul

I'm saying that this is a fallen world that we live in... no matter how "good" we are, no matter how loving or how much love we try to put into the world, bad things are STILL going to happen to us. If they didn't, then people would only try to seek love and live in love... JUST SO bad things wouldn't happen to them. The lesson of love would be completely lost.
Their seeking out love and putting love in the world would be as rags, it would be fake and fueled by fear.

But if we love DESPITE what happens to us... then we are learning. The struggle is a good struggle. Although, it doesn't feel like it at times... it is "GOOD" at it's core because it is teaching us.

Kinda like... people who believe in and worship God because they don't want to go to an eternal hell.
That smacks of false love. There is no fear in love. If there's fear, it ain't love. sorry.
Love is not just a word. Love is everything.

I hope that made sense.
If it didn't... just say so..
At times, I think I might talk slightly in circles.. :laughing7:

[peacemaker]

Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?

No, I tell you!

So are you saying they suffered this because they didn't repent? If not, then why did they suffer it?

No, but are you?

There are random variables (time and chance) that are at work, causing the rain to fall on the just and unjust in similar manner, although, it may not rain, today.

"I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, neither is bread to the wise, nor wealth to the discerning, or favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all." (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

All our earthly labors are vain strivings, often times, grasping for the wind!

But ...

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the same comfort which we ourselves are comforted ..." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)

There are mountains we must climb, as not all mountains will be removed in our lives, thus, let us not linger in the wilderness of despair.

peacemaker

[Raggedy Anne]

I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.

EGG-ZACTLY.     :icon_jokercolor:

Anne

[trettep]

Luk 13:1  There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Is this a guarantee that we will not suffer calamity if we follow God's will via repentance?

Paul

Still looking for the Spiritual message here.  The tower reference seems to be a reference to a tower that is associated potentially with the the fountain water to me that was used to fill the pool of Solomon.   Read here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lightfoot/talmud.ii.iii.html?highlight=tower,in,siloam#highlight

Paul