Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Is this a guarantee that we will not suffer calamity if we follow God's will via repentance?
Paul
I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.
God's blessing, James.
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
peacemaker
I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.
Quote from: jabcat on April 09, 2009, 06:55:43 AM
I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.
God's blessing, James.
Please expound upon that.
Paul
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
peacemaker
So are you saying they suffered this because they didn't repent? If not, then why did they suffer it?
Paul
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 04:00:47 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
peacemaker
I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.
I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this. But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).
I'm trying to understand your position more. Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them?
Paul
Hi Paul
He that brings the calamity..also delivers from it
Isaaih 65;20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child
shall die a hundred years old;but the sinner being a hundred
years old,shall be accursed.
This is talking about the regeneration...the child is referring
to the child of God...and the old man of sin is just that. As long
as these two seeds dwell in the earth[human] for the totality of
the man's life on earth. The sinner [old man] whether the
human lives to be a hundred is still considered accursed.
And any 'infant' or babe in Christ will not fail to finish out his
days[eternal life] even though he die at a hundred years of age.
wheat and tare in same vessel
Quote from: sheila on April 09, 2009, 04:59:21 PM
Hi Paul
He that brings the calamity..also delivers from it
Isaaih 65;20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
nor an old man that hath not filled his days, for the child
shall die a hundred years old;but the sinner being a hundred
years old,shall be accursed.
This is talking about the regeneration...the child is referring
to the child of God...and the old man of sin is just that. As long
as these two seeds dwell in the earth[human] for the totality of
the man's life on earth. The sinner [old man] whether the
human lives to be a hundred is still considered accursed.
And any 'infant' or babe in Christ will not fail to finish out his
days[eternal life] even though he die at a hundred years of age.
wheat and tare in same vessel
Sheila, then tell me why did Jesus say UNLESS you repent you shall LIKEWISE perish? Is He not implying that if we DO repent that we shall NOT likewise perish?
Paul
Hi Paul
we can perish as a 'babe/infant in our understading of Christ.
Perish as the 'old man' of sin...die like the beast.Or we can
repent and die for the Glory of God..putting the old man
of sin to death. But it is appointed for all men to die once.
Now did the apostles/disciples repent? Yes, did they die?
according to the flesh..though they have the gift of eternal life
by the spirit.
Perish IN THE SAME MANNER...these men of Israel were in
open revolt against the authorities over them, let none of you
suffer as an evil doer.Better to suffer for righteousness sake
They were in open revolt against Pilate..Pilate sought to
release Jesus,didn't want his blood on his hands,judged him as
unworthy of death
TIME AND UNFORSEEN OCCURANCE BEFALLS US ALL
is all I have to reply to about the tower that fell
:cloud9: Good posts, Sheila :thumbsup: I never caught that about the infant before. I love Him and His Word. It still thrills me 23 years later. Blessings...
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:06:12 PM
I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this. But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).
I'm trying to understand your position more. Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them? Paul
:cloud9: Hi Paul; if I may interject something here, the rain (His Spirit that raises up) falls on the just (wheat/Christ) and unjust (tares/man of sin) equally. He does this to present us with a choice EVERY single time, ie. choose ye this day whom ye will serve.
Now if you look at this being IN people controlling their actions, the same is also true; "good" people have calamities come upon them (just ask Job), and "bad" people get blessed sometimes (Moses was a murderer).
God works things out according to His good pleasure, seeing the end from the beginning. There is another level beyond choosing the outward good according to the appearance realm/law, which is why Jesus broke the law (worked on Sabbath, disciples ate with unwashed hands, ect.), yet fulfilled in perfectly in the Spirit.
It is all designed to get our focus off the natural and onto the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, or as He told Abraham, walk before Me and be thou perfect. Blessings...
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:01:54 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 09, 2009, 06:55:43 AM
I haven't looked at all the specific contexts of those scriptures, but I would consider, primarily, who Jesus was talking to and about what.
God's blessing, James.
Please expound upon that.
Paul
Because, as I've said before, I believe we often take things out of context and try to apply them directly and exactly to other situations. At the very least,
many things Jesus said were primarily directed to the Jewish nation who were about to lose their place of privilege; He was about to die, rise again, and then the gospel would go to the nations...Israel would be set aside for a season, us, the gentiles, would be given the privilege of being grafted in because of Israel's (temporary) blindness...until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved... :dontknow:, it's scripture, I just haven't exactly quoted or listed the chapters/verses.
IMO, we often take those statements, made primarily to certain individuals/groups, and try to make them primarily apply to us, to whom they may or may not be primarily intended. I won't get into another big struggle about this, because some will apparently continue to do it...but hopefully someone reading this and other threads will remember to place things in proper context, and we will have an increase in properly cutting the Word of truth. Trying to do that myself...I'm sure I miss it sometimes.
Like I said, I haven't explored these particular scriptures in detail, for this particular discussion. My point is, before I started trying to draw conclusions from a few verses Jesus said, I think it would be necessary to take all this into consideration...that's for me...if others wish to discuss it without doing so, then IMO, we can get into apples and oranges and just perpetuate doctrinal confusion. MAYBE NOT IN THIS CASE, but I
am trying to raise an awareness of the need for context and properly cutting scripture as we discuss.
Carry on as desired, I'll get out. Responding to your request to elaborate.
I'll say one more quick thing :mblush:. I like Card's post and approach (not saying others haven't made points I like, but illustrating).. in that, perhaps there's often a spiritual principle/another layer/a lesson to learn, even if something's primarily directed at another group or individual...I just think we need to look at the whole context before we jump in up to our eyeballs. I especially need to, because I'm not the best swimmer :help:.
:cloud9: Thanks, Jab.....there's a spiritual understanding of EVERY WORD and LETTER in there. How could there not be, seeing how it all CAME from a Spirit? :laughing7: Blessings...
Thanks for the comments. So how do we overcome fear?
Paul
:cloud9: He "supernaturally" delivers us of it. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind. Man is in bondage to fear of death (of dying to self) all of His days. Perfected love casts out all fear; no greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends. Abraham was called God's friend because he laid down his "life" (promise) on the altar. Blessings....
Eyes on Jesus. Absorbing all He is, all He's done and does for us. There's "wonder-working power in the blood".
Quote from: jabcat on April 09, 2009, 09:04:14 PMIMO, we often take those statements, made primarily to certain individuals/groups, and try to make them primarily apply to us, to whom they may or may not be primarily intended. I won't get into another big struggle about this, because some will apparently continue to do it...
jab some of us have a different view of scripture than what you've just described and so we do not do what you are saying haphazardly, it is done conciously.
I was taught the same kinds of things you talked about above. Things like:
- OT is to Israel but for our learning.
- The 4 Gospels are to Israel but for our learning.
- Paul epistles are to the church and not Israel.
- Different gospels for Jews and Gentiles.
- Pay attention to whom it is written.
It is not for unawareness of these things that some of us (me) do that. It is due to disagreement them altogether.
Quotebut hopefully someone reading this and other threads will remember to place things in proper context, and we will have an increase in properly cutting the Word of truth. Trying to do that myself...I'm sure I miss it sometimes.
I don't find that NT writers followed these rules of "context" and "to whom it's written" when quoting and applying scripture. I believe they understood and interpreted scripture by the Spirit of God and routinely broke these rules of "good" hermeneutics.
Well, Brother Bob, thanks for being so clear. This particular thread is not the place to continue pursuing this discussion, we're getting close to hijacking Paul's thread :spank:. Briefly, I believe we need to rightly handle the Word of God whether in this thread, or other areas of our life. Probably none of us has that completely figured out. However, IMO, not doing so causes and adds to confusion. I have a thread called "Context of Scripture" if any of us would like to pursue this particular topic further, or of course, please feel free to start your own.
Quote from: jabcat on April 10, 2009, 04:15:20 AM
Well, Brother Bob, thanks for being so clear. This particular thread is not the place to continue pursuing this discussion, we're getting close to hijacking Paul's thread :spank:. Briefly, I believe we need to rightly handle the Word of God whether in this thread, or other areas of our life. Probably none of us has that completely figured out. However, IMO, not doing so causes and adds to confusion. I have a thread called "Context of Scripture" if any of us would like to pursue this particular topic further, or of course, please feel free to start your own.
I responded in your thread jab.
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:06:12 PM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 04:00:47 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
peacemaker
I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.
I believe the "rain falling" reference that you made is to a scripture that speaks of this. But rain falling is considered GOOD as opposed to it not falling (drought).
I'm trying to understand your position more. Are you saying that those that are GOOD can suffer calamities such as those that had the tower fall upon them?
Paul
I'm saying that this is a fallen world that we live in... no matter how "good" we are, no matter how loving or how much love we try to put into the world, bad things are STILL going to happen to us. If they didn't, then people would only try to seek love and live in love... JUST SO bad things wouldn't happen to them. The lesson of love would be completely lost.
Their seeking out love and putting love in the world would be as rags, it would be fake and fueled by fear.
But if we love DESPITE what happens to us... then we are learning. The struggle is a good struggle. Although, it doesn't feel like it at times... it is "GOOD" at it's core because it is teaching us.
Kinda like... people who believe in and worship God because they don't want to go to an eternal hell.
That smacks of false love. There is no fear in love. If there's fear, it ain't love. sorry.
Love is not just a word. Love is everything.
I hope that made sense.
If it didn't... just say so..
At times, I think I might talk slightly in circles.. :laughing7:
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 09, 2009, 08:39:16 AM
Italy's deadliest earthquake in almost three decades killed at least 150, plus left tens of thousands without shelter, as it leveled buildings that stood for centuries. Do you think that these Italians were worse sinners than all the other Italians, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you!
So are you saying they suffered this because they didn't repent? If not, then why did they suffer it?
No, but are you?
There are random variables (time and chance) that are at work, causing the rain to fall on the just and unjust in similar manner, although, it may not rain, today.
"I again saw under the sun that the race is not to the swift and the battle is not to the warriors, neither is bread to the wise, nor wealth to the discerning, or favor to men of ability; for time and chance overtake them all." (Ecclesiastes 9:11)
All our earthly labors are vain strivings, often times, grasping for the wind!
But ...
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the same comfort which we ourselves are comforted ..." (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
There are mountains we must climb, as not all mountains will be removed in our lives, thus, let us not linger in the wilderness of despair.
peacemaker
Quote from: Sparrow
I agree.
The rain falls on ALL.
If buildings fell only on those who were doing evil at the time, then this world would be pointless. People would go around doing good just so buildings wouldn't fall on them. The struggle to learn the meaning of love would not be a real struggle. It would be false. We might as well have remained incorruptible and never put on corruptible. We would have been just as robot-ey, not understanding and not realizing and not knowing real TRUTH.
EGG-ZACTLY. :icon_jokercolor:
Anne
Quote from: trettep on April 09, 2009, 06:35:09 AM
Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Is this a guarantee that we will not suffer calamity if we follow God's will via repentance?
Paul
Still looking for the Spiritual message here. The tower reference seems to be a reference to a tower that is associated potentially with the the fountain water to me that was used to fill the pool of Solomon. Read here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lightfoot/talmud.ii.iii.html?highlight=tower,in,siloam#highlight
Paul
Verse 4 and verse 11 of luke Chapter 13 both use the word "eighteen". That is telling us something but not sure what. My studys have lead me to believe that an ancient calendar day had 18 parts to it in total (night and day).
Paul
:cloud9: Thanks for the site link; it looks interesting. Blessings..
Quote from: trettep on April 11, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
Verse 4 and verse 11 of luke Chapter 13 both use the word "eighteen". That is telling us something but not sure what. My studys have lead me to believe that an ancient calendar day had 18 parts to it in total (night and day).
It appears that Jesus was using the number eighteen, repetitiously, indicating that the woman's infirmity was not her fault, nor should it be interpreted as a form of punishment. Apparently, following the same line of thought as in the eighteen whom the tower in Siloam fell upon, or even those in Italy who recently died for that matter.
However, it is interesting that Jesus called to her in the presence of those who socially through their own religiosity, devalued the life of others while at the same time, exalted themselves and their animals.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on April 13, 2009, 02:34:11 AM
Quote from: trettep on April 11, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
Verse 4 and verse 11 of luke Chapter 13 both use the word "eighteen". That is telling us something but not sure what. My studys have lead me to believe that an ancient calendar day had 18 parts to it in total (night and day).
It appears that Jesus was using the number eighteen, repetitiously, indicating that the woman's infirmity was not her fault, nor should it be interpreted as a form of punishment. Apparently, following the same line of thought as in the eighteen whom the tower in Siloam fell upon, or even those in Italy who recently died for that matter.
However, it is interesting that Jesus called to her in the presence of those who socially through their own religiosity, devalued the life of others while at the same time, exalted themselves and their animals.
peacemaker
I assume we are talking now about the woman who had an "issue of blood" for 12 years. I've often mused on that story. She had AN ISSUE OF BLOOD. In my church days, I was always told that she had a menstruation problem, but I have never settled that for myself. I think in the bigger picture, the entire "woman of God" has a bleeding problem, and has had a bleeding problem since Adam was lowered into mortality. I appreciate the explanations about the number eighteen. Sheila's post was very thought-provoking... 'do we want to die ignorant' or do we want to 'get an understanding first' ? Either way, we are still appointed to pass through the valley of the shadow of death. The scriptures point out that that woman, 'BEING A DAUGHTER OF GOD' ought to be loosed from such bondage. Almost every place I looked this up on the internet was a teaching concerned with gaining a physical healing and or focusing on a literal interpretation.
Mark 5:25-34 (King James Version)
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
:cloud9: Another way to look at 18; 6+6+6, the mark of the beast, imperfect spirit, soul and body....Blessings...
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 13, 2009, 07:55:36 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 13, 2009, 02:34:11 AM
Quote from: trettep on April 11, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
Verse 4 and verse 11 of luke Chapter 13 both use the word "eighteen". That is telling us something but not sure what. My studys have lead me to believe that an ancient calendar day had 18 parts to it in total (night and day).
It appears that Jesus was using the number eighteen, repetitiously, indicating that the woman's infirmity was not her fault, nor should it be interpreted as a form of punishment. Apparently, following the same line of thought as in the eighteen whom the tower in Siloam fell upon, or even those in Italy who recently died for that matter.
However, it is interesting that Jesus called to her in the presence of those who socially through their own religiosity, devalued the life of others while at the same time, exalted themselves and their animals.
peacemaker
I assume we are talking now about the woman who had an "issue of blood" for 12 years. I've often mused on that story. She had AN ISSUE OF BLOOD. In my church days, I was always told that she had a menstruation problem, but I have never settled that for myself. I think in the bigger picture, the entire "woman of God" has a bleeding problem, and has had a bleeding problem since Adam was lowered into mortality. I appreciate the explanations about the number eighteen. Sheila's post was very thought-provoking... 'do we want to die ignorant' or do we want to 'get an understanding first' ? Either way, we are still appointed to pass through the valley of the shadow of death. The scriptures point out that that woman, 'BEING A DAUGHTER OF GOD' ought to be loosed from such bondage. Almost every place I looked this up on the internet was a teaching concerned with gaining a physical healing and or focusing on a literal interpretation.
Mark 5:25-34 (King James Version)
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
What do you mean by saying that Adam was lowered into mortality? That would seem to imply that at one time Adam was immortal. What is immortal can never become mortal - that defeats the meaning of the name immortal - does it not? After all if the gift we receive in Christ is immortality then it isn't much of a gift it it means we can still become mortal.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on April 13, 2009, 03:41:23 PM
What do you mean by saying that Adam was lowered into mortality? That would seem to imply that at one time Adam was immortal. What is immortal can never become mortal - that defeats the meaning of the name immortal - does it not?
So it's beyond the power of God to turn an immortal in a mortal?
He can only turn mortals into immortals?
QuoteAfter all if the gift we receive in Christ is immortality then it isn't much of a gift it it means we can still become mortal.
I see the gift as a promise from God that He will forever sustain our life. He doesn't break that promise (but has the power to do so)
So the question is this: Did God make the same promise to Adam? If nothing is promised nothing can broken.
trettep...
regarding mortal/immortal.
Maybe try thinking of it this way..
Adam is immortal (at his core.)
However, he is mortal (meaning he would die) once he "stepped" onto this earth.
He was only mortal when he was outside of the garden of eden.
Once he physically died from this realm, then he put back on immortality.
And it's a good thing! If he were immortal while on earth, then we'd all be in trouble.
does that make sense?
It's like only PART of Adam BECAME mortal.
The reason being, that part of Adam that became mortal was SUPPOSED to die.
It was created... TO die.
To NOT last forever, but just for a season.
To learn something he otherwise could not have learned.
As soon as we are born, we are dying.
(Thank God.)
I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words. :laughing7:
Wouldn't Jesus, at least in a sense, His earthly being, have become mortal for 33 years? :Chinscratch:. May be just another heretical view to some, but I believe our spirit (immortal) have always been so, as upon death they RE-turn to God, from "whence it came"...so IMO, those immortal spirits (little pieces of God?) were indeed lowered into these bodies of flesh, sin, and death...for a season...to be reunited and to "put on immortality". I could be wrong, thinking out loud here...I'll get back out :laughing7:.
:cloud9: Then I'm a heretic with you, Jabcat. :thumbsup:
Yeah Cardinal and Jabcat. Global warming is the least of your worries :sigh:
That's the way I currently see it too; Jab and Card. Yet it also seems that the immortality of our spirit is still "conditional" in that it has its source in God. He can give it and remove it. Part of the confusion for me is the interplay between our bodies, souls and spirits. If we have an "immortal" part of us, then it is clearly the spirit, as that seems to come directly from God, but our physical bodies are clearly not, and our souls are perhaps not immortal either? I'm still confused with respect to the scriptural witness on this.
I'm curious as to what your responses to this article would be: http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm
This guy is UR, and some of the articles he has are right on and others I sense wander off into left field...So I'm curious as to the group's critique of his use of the scriptures on this. He seems very much in what one would call the "conditional immortality camp".
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 09:38:45 PM
Yeah Cardinal and Jabcat. Global warming is the least of your worries :sigh:
Are you condemning me again? :punish: :prankster: That's White Wings in the middle, and me on the ends..before and after.
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 12:04:09 AM
Are you condemning me again? :punish: :prankster: That's White Wings in the middle, and me on the ends..before and after.
:eek: WhiteWings wasn't condemning you. :beerburp: :rocker :bdaycake:
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 12:04:09 AM:prankster:
You were that way before WhiteWings came along! Don't feel bad about that. I'm not far behind. :gamer:
Nah, you're right. You know, no matter all the bad things the newspapers report about that White Wings, he's a pretty nice fella :hihat:.
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 02:02:06 AM
Nah, you're right. You know, no matter all the bad things the newspapers report about that White Wings, he's a pretty nice fella :hihat:.
Newspapers? I'll have to show him sometime how to stay out of the press if he flew into the offices of the Washington Post and the New York Times carrying Lois Lane with an (S) on his back. There's a way of doing it, where you can avoid media coverage
even if you flew across nbc studios in your underwear to where it was abundantly clear that there were no support wires or studio effects pulling that stunt off.
And I did not wander from the focus of this thread 'cause the media is conceited enough to think that they report on
all things newsworthy, but
all in that instance definitely doesn't mean
all because of the UFOs, government cover ups of the Vice President profanely asserting in front of everybody that Obama didn't kick the new family dog, and government cover ups of Obama saying he did, but it was during the campaign when he was
running for President. :icon_jokercolor:
I stand by what I originally said that in a narrative we're not required to understand that
all would mean
all in every single instance, while in the plainly written doctrinal parts of the Scriptures, if
all doesn't mean
all, then we're at a loss for what any of it is talking about!
Good point (not the underwear part, the doctrinal "all" part).
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: trettep on April 13, 2009, 03:41:23 PM
What do you mean by saying that Adam was lowered into mortality? That would seem to imply that at one time Adam was immortal. What is immortal can never become mortal - that defeats the meaning of the name immortal - does it not?
So it's beyond the power of God to turn an immortal in a mortal?
He can only turn mortals into immortals?
QuoteAfter all if the gift we receive in Christ is immortality then it isn't much of a gift it it means we can still become mortal.
I see the gift as a promise from God that He will forever sustain our life. He doesn't break that promise (but has the power to do so)
So the question is this: Did God make the same promise to Adam? If nothing is promised nothing can broken.
If you want to believe that immortality means the ability to become mortal then go ahead. I will continue to believe contrarywise.
Paul
Quote from: sparrow on April 13, 2009, 06:16:19 PM
trettep...
regarding mortal/immortal.
Maybe try thinking of it this way..
Adam is immortal (at his core.)
However, he is mortal (meaning he would die) once he "stepped" onto this earth.
He was only mortal when he was outside of the garden of eden.
Once he physically died from this realm, then he put back on immortality.
And it's a good thing! If he were immortal while on earth, then we'd all be in trouble.
does that make sense?
It's like only PART of Adam BECAME mortal.
The reason being, that part of Adam that became mortal was SUPPOSED to die.
It was created... TO die.
To NOT last forever, but just for a season.
To learn something he otherwise could not have learned.
As soon as we are born, we are dying.
(Thank God.)
I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words. :laughing7:
No, as I don't believe Adam ever had immortality. Why need a Tree of Life if you have immortality? Yet Adam was given the choice to choose from it.
Paul
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 02:54:19 AM
Good point (not the underwear part, the doctrinal "all" part).
Does "All" mean "all", all the time? ...isn't that another thread?
:hijacked: ...by
all Superheroes wearing underwear :mshock: ...no commando's?
Do you like to fly?
Do you like to wear a cape?
Are you somewhat reserved and easy going?
Are you accident prone?
Do you like hi-tech gadgets?
Did you have a bad childhood?
Do you have a dark personality?
Do you wear thongs?
Do you ever wear a pushup bra?
Are you good at reading people?
Do you like to be in the limelight?
Are you good at acrobatics?
Are you a little naive?
Are you easily angered?
Do you have hidden strength?
Are you a loner?
Do you often hurt people without realizing it?
Do you move a lot?
Are you athletic?
Are you a fast runner?
Are you extremely talented in only one area?
Will you sometimes go too far to get your way?
Are you interested in space travel?
Do you get in many physical fights with girls?
Do you like animals?
Are you much of a drinker?
"No fear or calamity, only an unanticipated relapse."
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 13, 2009, 07:55:36 AM
Quote from: peacemaker on April 13, 2009, 02:34:11 AM
Quote from: trettep on April 11, 2009, 07:37:01 AM
Verse 4 and verse 11 of luke Chapter 13 both use the word "eighteen". That is telling us something but not sure what. My studys have lead me to believe that an ancient calendar day had 18 parts to it in total (night and day).
It appears that Jesus was using the number eighteen, repetitiously, indicating that the woman's infirmity was not her fault, nor should it be interpreted as a form of punishment. Apparently, following the same line of thought as in the eighteen whom the tower in Siloam fell upon, or even those in Italy who recently died for that matter.
However, it is interesting that Jesus called to her in the presence of those who socially through their own religiosity, devalued the life of others while at the same time, exalted themselves and their animals.
peacemaker
I assume we are talking now about the woman who had an "issue of blood" for 12 years. I've often mused on that story. She had AN ISSUE OF BLOOD. In my church days, I was always told that she had a menstruation problem, but I have never settled that for myself. I think in the bigger picture, the entire "woman of God" has a bleeding problem, and has had a bleeding problem since Adam was lowered into mortality. I appreciate the explanations about the number eighteen. Sheila's post was very thought-provoking... 'do we want to die ignorant' or do we want to 'get an understanding first' ? Either way, we are still appointed to pass through the valley of the shadow of death. The scriptures point out that that woman, 'BEING A DAUGHTER OF GOD' ought to be loosed from such bondage. Almost every place I looked this up on the internet was a teaching concerned with gaining a physical healing and or focusing on a literal interpretation.
Mark 5:25-34 (King James Version)
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Healing on the Sabbath (Luke chapter 13:10-17)
And He (Jesus) was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
And there was
a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit [i.e. (human) the rational and immortal soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.; to breath hard; properly a forcible respiration]; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her,
"Woman, you are freed from your sickness." And He laid His hands on her;
and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response,
"There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day." But the Lord answered him and said,
"You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him? And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan (an adversary) has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?" As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental, or social well being; not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."peacemaker
Funny and nobody's participating yet. Hmmm....
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you like to fly?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you like to wear a cape?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you somewhat reserved and easy going?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you accident prone?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you like hi-tech gadgets?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDid you have a bad childhood?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you have a dark personality?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you wear thongs?
Hey, I stopped smoking that a long time ago. No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you ever wear a pushup bra?
Hey, I quit drinking that a long time ago. No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you good at reading people?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you like to be in the limelight?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you good at acrobatics
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you a little naive?
Everybody's a little naive about something. Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you easily angered?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you have hidden strength?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you a loner?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you often hurt people without realizing it?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you move a lot?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you athletic?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you a fast runner?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you extremely talented in only one area?
No, I'm a polymath. "THE Doctor"
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMWill you sometimes go too far to get your way?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you interested in space travel?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you get in many physical fights with girls?
No
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMDo you like animals?
Yes
Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you much of a drinker?
No, never
Quote from: martincisneros on April 14, 2009, 05:20:03 AM
Funny and nobody's participating yet. Hmmm.... "It is very strange?" Didn't God create humor too?Quote from: peacemaker on April 14, 2009, 03:57:56 AMAre you extremely talented in only one area?
No, I'm a polymath. "THE Doctor"
PLEASE DON'T DRINK AND DERIVE, as Math and Alcohol don't mix ... from one Polyhistor to another, and a Mathematician against drunk deriving!
peacemaker
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 12:04:09 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 09:38:45 PM
Yeah Cardinal and Jabcat. Global warming is the least of your worries :sigh:
Are you condemning me again? :punish: :prankster: That's White Wings in the middle, and me on the ends..before and after.
I see 2 icons with a space between them. So I'm that space. I'm blotted out :btantrum:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2009, 12:04:09 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2009, 09:38:45 PM
Yeah Cardinal and Jabcat. Global warming is the least of your worries :sigh:
Are you condemning me again? :punish: :prankster: That's White Wings in the middle, and me on the ends..before and after.
I see 2 icons with a space between them. So I'm that space. I'm blotted out :btantrum:
That's weird. I wonder if some of the emoticons don't show up on every browser 'cause I still see the one in the middle smacking Jabcat in the back of the head even in your quote of his post, WhiteWings.
As well as in my quote of your post that I just made after having posted my post.
Martin,
I see 2 smilies.
1 on the right.
2 of the left. But that's 1 icon (code) -> moderation icon
So I see
User - moderator - Jabcat :laughing7:
That's all. (no limiter here)
I knew what the wascal was saying...he's too observant for my own good :laughing7:....