UR believers, how long did it take...

[Nathan]

A few months after the start of my Freshman year in college, I was reading an article about a seminar Rob Bell did and in it, he asked several questions which challenged some of the common conceptions regarding salvation.  This got me asking questions about it myself and one of the subjects I came across was universalism.  I had heard of it before but never really studied it indepth.  I first began to read articles on Eric Stetson's site and it really challenged what I had always been taught concerning salvation and hell.  The more I studied and prayed, the more convinced I became the universalism was true.  I kind of straddled the fence for about two more years, saying that I hoped UR was true, and thought there was good evidence for it, but I wasn't quite ready to say for 100% sure that I believed it. Then, in my Junior year of school, I took a class on Romans, which was taught from the UR perspective (The professor is an open universalist.)  After studying in that class and doing more studying and praying on my own, I can now say that I am a convinced universalist and it has completely changed my entire perspective on everything I thought I knew about God. 

Another thing I didn't know!!  I didn't know Rob Bell was a universalist.  I love Rob Bell!  I bought a DVD of his called Everything is Spiritual . . .PHENOMINAL!!!  I played it's entirety during one of our services.  I love this guy!!.  His stuff on this dvd is a great segue into dimensional perspectives.  I especially liked his take on God's reply on whether something is square or round (his answer is "yup".)

If you open up your Utube and type in "Rob Bell, everything is spritual" you can see some of his clips . .very good stuff.  I tried to copy and paste the address . but I'm not sure if that works or not.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rob+bell+everything+is+spiritual&search_type=&aq=2&oq=rob+be

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yeah, it was interesting when a church I was in started using Rob bell's stuff, then mysteriously no one spoke about him any more.  Finding out he was a universalist explained it.  Not dissing Rob bell, some of his ideas I do not agree with.   However, watching one of his DVD's (don't remember the name) but a person was shoveling snow all through his message.  He kept glancing over, all the time I was waiting for him to go and get a shovel and go help,  he never did, then I absolutely loved it when the lady shoveling snow was done and then went home to a different house.

All I could think upon seeing that, no matter what I didn't like about some of the other stuff he said was,  "thats how I want to be"

[Nathan]

Yeah, it was interesting when a church I was in started using Rob bell's stuff, then mysteriously no one spoke about him any more.  Finding out he was a universalist explained it.  Not dissing Rob bell, some of his ideas I do not agree with.   However, watching one of his DVD's (don't remember the name) but a person was shoveling snow all through his message.  He kept glancing over, all the time I was waiting for him to go and get a shovel and go help,  he never did, then I absolutely loved it when the lady shoveling snow was done and then went home to a different house.

All I could think upon seeing that, no matter what I didn't like about some of the other stuff he said was,  "thats how I want to be"

Yeah, other than Everything is Spiritual video, I really don't know much about his base.  We ended up ordering like a dozen more of that DVD as those who saw the original one were really lit up by it as well.  Can't say I disagree with anything he says . .as I don't know what else he says.

[Doc]

:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.

I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL?  :laughing7:  Blessings....

Can you share that in any more detail?  About the tabernacle..

Molly, there is a link from the savior-of-all.com site that goes to an excellent e-book on the tabernacle/ OT imagery. I can't remember if trying to go directly to the link instead of going through his site works or not, but I'll provide what I can here to try and make it easy for you to find. First, we'll try the direct link: http://www.savior-of-all.com/Creation%27s%20Jubilee.pdf

If that doesn't work, go to www.savior-of-all.com and click on the link that says "free downloads". This should take you to a page of .pdf books. Click on the one titled "Creation's Jubilee". Enjoy! There are many other great books and articles on that page and other link pages from Ken Eckerty's site as well.

[martincisneros]

Coming into the Scriptural revelation of UR was actually quite a bit easier than some of the deeper things that I've learned of God's Word since then.  I've gained a real respect over the last 8 years for how complexly woven together the whole Bible is.  Some things can't be "proven" in under a couple thousand passages.  I wouldn't have believed in UR with under that.  Postmillenialism and maybe 500 other things are about the same. 

I've got one Bible devoted to UR with every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to Postmillenialism and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to the Hosea 2:18 covenant and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to faith and words and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to prosperity theology and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to studying the Amen and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to studying Light and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to studying the Anointing and every passage highlighted.  One Bible devoted to studying evil and every passage highlighted.  And on the selection goes, with each Bible labeled as to what it's about and accompanied with a 3 inch binder for notes. 

I've started half a dozen new Bibles in the last couple of weeks in that way on stuff that very likely nobody's ever heard of.  I'm genuinely not even sure what to call some things right now 'cause I'm so new to recognizing these new patterns I'm finding in the Scriptures.  I get the feeling sometimes that Christ Jesus Himself is still learning from that Book.  I've been stunned with finally knowing what to do with minor inconsistencies that I'd previously blown off as the most minor of textual errors as it was being copied during the dark ages by hand, but that once I knew what subject they belonged with, I'm starting to wander again towards a rigid Scriptural inerrancy 'cause I'm seeing why certain things are deliberately playful with the details.  I'm starting to lean again towards "The Book's perfect.  Anything you don't understand, you simply don't understand.  Any kind of perceived errors is deeper layers you've not yet crossed the bridge on into." 

I've never really wandered very far away from that, but I've totally bent over backwards previously with people that didn't quite see it that way 'cause I didn't know how to answer them about a few things that I'm about to corner in the Bible on how to answer such and such.  Not every perceived problem that's been raised with the text so far, but some stunning ones that I hope to say much more about soon, somewhere online.  But when I go there about some stuff, I'll have my outlines, word studies, and obscene number of texts ready to back it up. LOL!  What I've been seeing recently is incredible!  I'm not looking to corner anyone in particular, so I'm not getting into specifics and polarizing the boards before what I've got in the oven is even done.  I'm just coming to a place of deep relief about finally knowing what's been behind certain alleged inconsistencies.  I might be teetering on finding another type of Bible code that's not previously been discussed in all of the books that have previously debated the skip letter sequence and other forms of espionage secret patterns in the Bible about various stuff.

I don't see the type of evangelistic whatever out of what I'm starting to see that to me is a bunch of hype that people have tried to associate with the types of patterns in the Bible that they've previously looked at.  The Bible already tells you about 75% of what any scientist would tell you as far as the rotation of the earth and of the galaxies, multiple demensions of space and time, etc., etc., etc. and if the obscene numbers of books, articles, and websites devoted to that kind of apologetics has only been minimally beneficial, then what I'm researching right now is going to wind up being more for believers than for unbelievers.  As far as I'm concerned, just one more proof of it's divine inspiration isn't going to be very helpful for someone embalmed in unbelief, unless the Holy Spirit's already really talking with them.  No one proof is the death of atheism, deism, skepticism, evolution, speciesism, chauvinism, etc., etc., etc.

I think that a lot of apologists get really over inflated about the value of any particular handful of consistencies that they're able to draw together about anything.  It's a heart issue regarding anything that anyone would ever want to convince anyone of.  Things that conclusively proved things to previous generations aren't necessarily going to do it for this and the next generation.  St. Paul said that if you prayed in tongues enough and became skillful in the interpretation, then you could tell a sinner all of the secrets of their hearts, lifestyle, etc., etc. and they'd fall on their knees convinced that God was speaking through you.  These days, many folks would think of satellite technology, computer worms, and tons and tons of other things, including alien or government implants, to try to get away from something staring them in the face of that nature.  If they don't want to be accountable, then all you can do is alienate people by having all of the answers if the Holy Spirit isn't nearly finished with cornering them.

Supernatural and intellectual, or theological proofs will only go so far in a culture that's not God-fearing.  And I won't get into anything stupid with anyone over semantics in how I put that.  Of course I'm talking about respect, obedience, honor, submission, subjection, mindfulness, and all of the other things related to fear as it relates to God in the KJV.  In a culture that's not God-fearing, then we must return to prayer for them with all of our hearts rather than to try to sharpen any number of apologetic tools conceivably at our disposal, whether supernatural, subjective, intellectual, theological, or whatever.  1Timothy 2 and 2Chronicles 7:14 must become the most important passages to us from here on out if we honestly want to reach anyone with any aspect of God's plan for their lives in Christ Jesus as it relates to any and every aspect of destiny that He has for their lives: spirit, soul, body, financially, and relationally.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know Martin, that is a very good idea about highlighting different bibles like that. I used to do legal pads on specific topics until I just gave up as there was too much that led to too much that led to too much, and my handwriting got worse and worse, LOL. I think I might do that. Blessings....

[Zero7]

sscoulter,

It took me about 3-4 months to finally accept it as fact after first hearing about it. No doubt in my mind now.

I no longer fear death. (for me or family/friends)

Funny how I came to the conclusion...I was obsessed with books about NDE's, esp. the negative ones. I read every 'hellish' NDE I could find. I think I was trying to get a picture of what hell was going to be like since I was 90% sure I was headed there.

One common theme with these hellish stories was that they all had happy endings. Howard Storm's book "My Descent into Death" started it all. (I wrote him multiple times asking him questions about his experience. I think he is an annihillst by the way, at lease he was when I corresponded with him)

I then found an article about some preacher speculating that maybe God does give a second chance after death. That got me thinking more. I then found some tentmaker articles and even called Gary Armirault on the phone and spoke with him for awhile.

So it was baby step after baby step that finally got me there.

I guess I have to remember that when I bring this up to people that still hold on to ET. Now, it's like, how on earth can you believe that Jesus was only successful in rescuing 5-10% of the population and the rest are lost forvever? How can anyone believe that? But, again, if someone told me about UR 5-10 years ago, I would have responded the same way.

Seek and you shall find. Hell bothered me my entire life, it was a concept I kept questioning over and over. Thank God He showed me truth. Good bye forever fear.

[Cardinal]

sscoulter,

I then found an article about some preacher speculating that maybe God does give a second chance after death.

:cloud9: Amen, yes He does.....Blessings....

[CHB]

Hi Martin,

Highlighting is a good idea. This is the way I learned what the lake of fire was all about. Not to mention the writings of others. I took the word "fire" and looked up all the referrences and lo and behold I got a total different understanding than what I had before. This was a subject that I never could quite get until I did this.

CHB

[sparrow]

:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.

Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.

[sparrow]

For me, it took... I don't know... 6 months maybe?
It was when I truly started to seek out God... (I had been researching different religions, etc. trying to find truth.) and I came back to Jesus, but got to the point of a near nervous breakdown (crying uncontrollably laying on the floor of my shower) and my testimony is similar to Hannah Whitall Smith's. Not being able to look people in the eye in public, for fear that I would lose it. I would start crying in public, looking at all the strangers wondering about their salvation, etc. Praying for my enemies. Praying for Doctors that ruined our families life. Not wanting anyone, even Hitler to suffer all eternity. And I just devoured every thing and slowly but surely he showed me the truth. A lot of strange little things happened. It was pretty cool. Slowly but surely, I started to trust that it was the truth and then I really started to devour stuff..  :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.

Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.

:cloud9: I mean I was a blank slate when God got me and I didn't know WHAT to believe so believed nothing until HE showed me. Blessings...

[sparrow]

:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.

Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.

:cloud9: I mean I was a blank slate when God got me and I didn't know WHAT to believe so believed nothing until HE showed me. Blessings...

So you never thought about the teaching of hell? It wasn't something that crossed your mind and you had to think about it? (Again, just trying to understand what you mean.) I wasn't indoctrinated either, but when I was researching, most in christianity believed in hell (eternal torment or annihilation) so it was something that had to be torn apart and looked at.  Just wondering how you skipped even thinking about the idea of hell that so many seemed to hold?

(I'm not talking about BELIEVING, but thinking about, researching, studying, etc.)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Remember I said I was basically alone, and realizing that and not knowing who I could believe of all the countless denoms, I read that His Spirit could teach me and that was literally the second scripture I ever stood on. I had no idea how He was going to do that exactly, but believed He would.

So when He started to teach me (and I was finally aware of it) there were several things He told me concerning doctrines that I did not and would not understand in any depth for several years.

One of those things was that hell meant separation from God and that there were millions walking around in shoe leather that were "in hell". So I assumed that the multitudes were again wrong.

After all, from my point of view He had first destroyed the rapture doctrine for me before it could take hold, and the multitudes believed that, so WHAT ELSE were they wrong about? I found that frightening that so many people could be wrong, and I didn't really understand at that point how exactly that could happen if we all have the same book, I thought, how hard can this be really?  :mshock: Boy, was I naive.  :laughing7:

So I decided in my "infancy" that I wasn't staking my personal relationship with God on ANYBODY'S "theories" if I could help it. My "solution" was that I prayed every day before hours and hours of study, and always said; "I don't care what You teach me Lord, as long as I know it's Your truth."

When you KNOW you don't know anything about it, and you're not sure who does, it's a little fearful. I had no personal interest in studying anything about hell, I only wanted to know about Him. I figured if He wanted to show me anything else, He would, as I was a willing, albeit, blank slate. So that's basically my experience. Blessings....

[sparrow]

ahhhh..... ok.
I understand now.
Thanks for explaining!
I understand much of where you're coming from.

[ducktapehero]

I always had a problem with Hell. After thinking about it I finally realized that, as a father myself, I could never allow my child to suffer endless torment, no matter what his sin is. How could a God of infinite love do the same. I began to doubt my faith because all I was ever taught was that unless you're good enough(or whatever) you're gonna burn in hellfire for eternity.

It got to where I simply couldn't love much less evangelize for a God who would do that to his own children. But deep down I KNEW that something wasn't clicking. God wouldn't send his son to die a horrible death on the cross if he didn't love us. I'm sure some of you won't believe me but I prayed really hard about this and asked God to show me how he could love us so much and still have a hell.

The very next day I was just "surfing the web", not really looking for this and I stumbled upon some Universalist websites. And after reading some of them it was like a light going on. Now I understand. I don't know of the official doctrine, I don't know if there is even one but I believe that while people do pay for their sins in some way or another but that very few will be "cast into the fire".

Part of me still thinks that some will be tormented forever. The fact is that there are some truly evil people out there but the vast majority will eventually be reconciled with God our Father.

However, maybe none will be tormented forever. I'm new to this and need to study and pray more. But now I'm excited to spread the Word. Instead of making excuses for a God who tortures his own children forever, I can now talk about a God of love, who may punish and discipline his children but like any Father does not stop loving them.

[Doc]

I really liked the way that it was put in The Shack, where Mack is put in the judgment seat and 'given a choice' as to which of his kids gets saved vs. which go to hell. He of course didn't want to send any of his kids there, and asked to be sent there himself instead.

[chuckt]

I really liked the way that it was put in The Shack, where Mack is put in the judgment seat and 'given a choice' as to which of his kids gets saved vs. which go to hell. He of course didn't want to send any of his kids there, and asked to be sent there himself instead.

yes that was very good. indeed.

peace
euty

[Nathan]

I was raised in a way that I believed it was never God sending people to hell . . . he made it for the demons and because people rejected God . .they were sending themselves to hell.  Just like I also believed that it's impossible to lose your salvation  . . .but it "is" possible for you to walk away from it.  What Christ did on the cross didn't actually redeem you . . .it just gave you the option for redemption if you so chose it. 

The underlying belief there is . . . it's all about "me" and "my" decisions.  It is giving my mind the power and not the cross.

[Raggedy Anne]

Hello friends,

As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.

Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?


Peace.


S

It seems like it was about 6 months of reading many articles found on Tentmaker.  Just prior to finding Tentmaker I was crying out to God to show me the truth and show me what Babylon is.   I was weary of the differences in all the churches I'd attended and visited over the years.    Looking back, there was an inner witness to this truth many times throughout my life that was constantly muffled by church teachings.   Believing in ET/Hell was a great burden to me from the time I was a very young child.   I used to turn certain scriptures over carefully in my mind that pointed to UR and gravitate toward them, never even dreaming that they might in fact actually be true.  For example, that all the families of the earth would be blessed because of Abraham's faith.   And Abraham's children being more in number than the grains of sand and stars.... 

Once this truth gets into you, you will not be able to 'go back' - and who would want to?

Anne