Hello friends,
As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.
Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?
Peace.
S
To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 09:33:07 PM
To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.
Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.
How has it changed your life?
Thanks again,
S
Quote from: sscoulter on January 12, 2009, 09:25:13 PM
Hello friends,
As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.
Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?
Peace.
S
greetings,
most of all it started changing the way i view God and my ability to move on to truley loving my enemies.
thats sums it up for me, one word....LOVE.....and how i now view others and the ability to quickly forgive others.
one other thing is the disposition it gives us when approaching scripture.
God bless
chuckt
About 3 years
I was introduced to it and rejected it pretty much sight unseen and did not contemplate it much for about a year. The next year I was drawn back to the idea and went on the internet in various forums where people were defending it and I tried to prove them wrong.
Last year was the third year where I studied the areas where my arguments did not hold up and could not deny that biblical support without interjecting ideas that are not clear in scripture but are implied more by inuendo than intepretation.
One of the last attempts I made was that I tried to taint the context of ALL to the passage (as all die in adam) to say that enoch and elijah did not die based on what I had been taught. It was not till I studied these two people myself in scripture that I realized just how deceptive the teaching typically is.
The latter part of last year was when I have come to believe that it is unlikely that I will ever go back to my old ways of thinking.
This year I intend to just see how many people I can introduce to the concept. Not try to convince, just to say, hey, God really does love everyone that much and here is why I believe that.
Quote from: chuckt on January 12, 2009, 09:50:30 PM
greetings,
most of all it started changing the way i view God and my ability to move on to truley loving my enemies.
thats sums it up for me, one word....LOVE.....and how i now view others and the ability to quickly forgive others.
one other thing is the disposition it gives us when approaching scripture.
God bless
chuckt
Thanks Chuck, God bless you my friend.
S
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 12, 2009, 09:56:03 PM
About 3 years
I was introduced to it and rejected it pretty much sight unseen and did not contemplate it much for about a year. The next year I was drawn back to the idea and went on the internet in various forums where people were defending it and I tried to prove them wrong.
Last year was the third year where I studied the areas where my arguments did not hold up and could not deny that biblical support without interjecting ideas that are not clear in scripture but are implied more by inuendo than intepretation.
One of the last attempts I made was that I tried to taint the context of ALL to the passage (as all die in adam) to say that enoch and elijah did not die based on what I had been taught. It was not till I studied these two people myself in scripture that I realized just how deceptive the teaching typically is.
The latter part of last year was when I have come to believe that it is unlikely that I will ever go back to my old ways of thinking.
This year I intend to just see how many people I can introduce to the concept. Not try to convince, just to say, hey, God really does love everyone that much and here is why I believe that.
Thank you, God bless.
S
I'm not sure exactly how long, but I probably accepted quicker than most. About 1 year ago I read a series of web articles on different sites (including this one) about how aion/aionios does not mean eternity. I started reading and reading and studying. I think I accepted the initial premise that God will save all within a week or two. But there was still alot of unresolved questions.
Now after 1 year of intensive studying, most of my fundamental questions have been answered. I pretty much accept UR fully now and cannot really see going back to my old beliefs. Of course there are still questions, like what the heck are we supposed to be doing now?!
However what I can't recall is that I may have heard the UR message before (without the details) earlier in my life. I can sort of remember hearing about people who believed that everyone would be saved and God couldn't send people to Hell. I wished it to be true - when I was very young I often wondered how hell made sense (I stopped thinking about it later in my 20s). I of course knew they were wrong because the bible clearly said there was an eternal hell. If only I had known back then what "eternal" was really translated from. I guess I wasn't ready to learn the truth at that point.
Learning the real meaning of aion/aionios did it for me. Of course I had to check all the possible uses of aion/aionios in the bible and resolve some apparent contradictions. But once I had resolved those contradictions for myself, there was no turning back.
It is still tough sometimes though. Its like a massive mountain of peer pressure... everyone believes in hell, what if I am wrong? I read some ETers articles and it is scary stuff. They use fear as a weapon. In some moments I do a double take. But then I go back to the scriptures and find comfort in God's word. Its always nice when I see some scripture I didn't notice before and get new meaning from it:
Matthew 10:31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
And this tiny parable is great:
Luke 13:20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."
The Kingdom will be worked and worked until it is worked into everyone! We are part of that tiny yeast that is mixing and mixing into the whole dough. Its going to take some time, but when done, it will be some pretty nice bread. :bigGrin:
Legoman
Quote from: sscoulter on January 12, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 09:33:07 PM
To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.
Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.
How has it changed your life?
Thanks again,
S
My experience has been very similar to Chuckt's. Some of the things that never made sense to me before in scripture (under the dominant paradigm) now make perfect sense. I understand God's character (his Love and justice, and that the two can't be separated) and His plan much more clearly now. I certainly rejected the idea at first, even though I "stumbled" across it and didn't have anyone directly trying to convince me. But gradually the Holy Spirit got through.
Legoman's right though, it aint easy being UR. It seems like nearly everyone in the church is against you on it. A lot of times you feel like the "lone ranger".
Pretty much any question or conceivable "but what about" argument you can come up with can be answered by reading through this: http://books.google.com/books?id=ol2R_856G0IC&dq=Elhanan+Winchester%27s+The+Universal+Restoration&pg=PP1&ots=fQLU7G3xl_&sig=EK9cJrUItIsCqjd6riQVHdaJ2s4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR28,M1
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: sscoulter on January 12, 2009, 09:43:36 PM
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 09:33:07 PM
To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.
Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.
How has it changed your life?
Thanks again,
S
My experience has been very similar to Chuckt's. Some of the things that never made sense to me before in scripture (under the dominant paradigm) now make perfect sense. I understand God's character (his Love and justice, and that the two can't be separated) and His plan much more clearly now. I certainly rejected the idea at first, even though I "stumbled" across it and didn't have anyone directly trying to convince me. But gradually the Holy Spirit got through.
Legoman's right though, it aint easy being UR. It seems like nearly everyone in the church is against you on it. A lot of times you feel like the "lone ranger".
Pretty much any question or conceivable "but what about" argument you can come up with can be answered by reading through this: http://books.google.com/books?id=ol2R_856G0IC&dq=Elhanan+Winchester%27s+The+Universal+Restoration&pg=PP1&ots=fQLU7G3xl_&sig=EK9cJrUItIsCqjd6riQVHdaJ2s4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR28,M1
Thanks again, and thanks for the link. I have been reading Ballou, Jukes and Thayer recently. Very interesting, and very convincing.
I see already how fear has been used by religion, both to "convert" the lost and also to keep them "in" church. It seems that if you take away hell, you take away their perception that they are "right" with God and the world falling head long into hell. You would think that they would be happy to hear that God intends to save every last lost soul, but it seems it brings out the Pharisee in most church going people. It seems to expose their religion, so no wonder they don't like it.
God bless,
S
I personally have never read Ballou, but I've Found Thayer and Jukes very helpful, along with some of the more modern authors; like Talbott, MacDonald, and others. I've Heard Jan Bonda's book is quite good as well, though I've not had the opportunity to pick it up yet. One website I also really like , is this one: http://www.savior-of-all.com/
This guy is really sharp, IMO. I have e-mailed him before, and he seems happy to answer questions.
Enjoy your journey! I've felt very much like I was in "The Matrix" at some points, being offered the choice between the red and blue pill. As hard as it is at times, I'm glad I took the right one... :2thumbs:
Quote from: legoman on January 12, 2009, 10:24:36 PM
I'm not sure exactly how long, but I probably accepted quicker than most. About 1 year ago I read a series of web articles on different sites (including this one) about how aion/aionios does not mean eternity. I started reading and reading and studying. I think I accepted the initial premise that God will save all within a week or two. But there was still alot of unresolved questions.
Now after 1 year of intensive studying, most of my fundamental questions have been answered. I pretty much accept UR fully now and cannot really see going back to my old beliefs. Of course there are still questions, like what the heck are we supposed to be doing now?!
However what I can't recall is that I may have heard the UR message before (without the details) earlier in my life. I can sort of remember hearing about people who believed that everyone would be saved and God couldn't send people to Hell. I wished it to be true - when I was very young I often wondered how hell made sense (I stopped thinking about it later in my 20s). I of course knew they were wrong because the bible clearly said there was an eternal hell. If only I had known back then what "eternal" was really translated from. I guess I wasn't ready to learn the truth at that point.
Learning the real meaning of aion/aionios did it for me. Of course I had to check all the possible uses of aion/aionios in the bible and resolve some apparent contradictions. But once I had resolved those contradictions for myself, there was no turning back.
It is still tough sometimes though. Its like a massive mountain of peer pressure... everyone believes in hell, what if I am wrong? I read some ETers articles and it is scary stuff. They use fear as a weapon. In some moments I do a double take. But then I go back to the scriptures and find comfort in God's word. Its always nice when I see some scripture I didn't notice before and get new meaning from it:
Matthew 10:31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
And this tiny parable is great:
Luke 13:20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."
The Kingdom will be worked and worked until it is worked into everyone! We are part of that tiny yeast that is mixing and mixing into the whole dough. Its going to take some time, but when done, it will be some pretty nice bread. :bigGrin:
Legoman
Thank you, and God bless you.
S
I didn't know that's what I was until after I came to this site. I didn't come by way of literal proof . . .but obviously that works as well. But I came by way of spiritual pattern. In studying the book of revelation (nontradition of course) and found that hell was cast in the lake of fire . .which told me it was temporary . .not a big deal . .but then when I realized that the lake of fire is patterned after the laver where the priests were cleansed in their labor of sacrificing . . .I saw that it's not eternal torment either . .and it still never really manifested loudly until I read possibly about the first 2 threads on this forum and realized even though the dimension is different, the outcome is the same . . . and it really helped me fill in a lot of blanks.
And these guys are right, it will ruin you for ever going back to traditional thinking if you let it.
Blessings.
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.
I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL? :laughing7: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.
I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL? :laughing7: Blessings....
Can you share that in any more detail? About the tabernacle..
Quote from: Doc on January 12, 2009, 11:24:47 PM
One website I also really like , is this one: http://www.savior-of-all.com/
This guy is really sharp, IMO. I have e-mailed him before, and he seems happy to answer questions.
I have always enjoyed Ken's articles. I wonder how he is doing? He use to have a forum that I posted on a lot.
CHB
Thanks to all for your thoughts, I would love to hear how this belief has changed your life. I wonder how it has changed you personally, if anyone cares to answer.
Peace.
S
A friend of mine got me to read Charles Slagle's book "Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ" in 1999 and I honestly didn't see any conflict between that book and what I previously understood/taught. I guess I was sorta ditzy when I read it, or edified in my spirit but going through too much for my mind to become aware of the problem and core issues. My friend sorta kept working on me throughout 2000 and in February of 2001 he convinced me to buy a copy of Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God" which is a UR commentary on Romans. Within weeks I was a convinced Universalist. I even remember the particular line that converted me where he said things to the effect of "if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?" I broke with tears 'cause that line was perfectly set up by all of the pages leading up to it.
Read everything that I could get my hands on after that by Thomas Talbott, Andrew Jukes, Thomas Allin, A.E. Knoch, Jacob Jocz, Charles Chauncy, Joseph Huntington, Thomas Whittemore, and others. Was only fully [mentally] persuaded by Elhanan Winchester's Dialogues in '03. So, even after I started teaching it almost immediately after my first revelation of it in '01, I still had the baggage of hundreds of verses that I've not found anyone else deal with except for Elhanan Winchester in "The Universal Restoration" also sometimes known as "Dialogues on the Universal Restoration."
"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"
Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:
Quote from: sscoulter on January 13, 2009, 01:23:02 AM
Thanks to all for your thoughts, I would love to hear how this belief has changed your life. I wonder how it has changed you personally, if anyone cares to answer.
Peace.
S
For me UR changed me apart from the fear of hell. I was raised in a fire and brimstone environment but never in my life have I feared hell. I've never really even feared Hell for others.
The issue for me is that the environment that fire and brimstone teaching thrives in has to do with what we are worth and how pleasing we are to God. Oddly enough, even thinking God hates me was never an issue, I also never really thought that God was my friend either. To me he was this thing that people used to hurt my feelings.
Basically the enviroments I have been subjected to were people who would accept a person only when that person "acted" good enough "for them".
I am the type of person that rarely if ever meets anyone expectations and most of my life I am who I am, and I do not fit the church or religious mould. The most horrible emotional period in my life was when I tried to make myself "fit". I self destructed emotionally and left a pretty wide path of destruction with people and come to find out , did so in the last church I left.
As bad as I feel towards those I hurt, it only happened because I tried it their way, tried to conform, tried to be good enough to meet "their" expectations. since they taught that their expectations really wasn't theirs, but Gods.
Universal reconciliation has done more for me than to see the view of Hell I think I have always "known" it has allowed me to see that there is no time in my life where I had to "fit" somewhere in order for God to love me. There is nothing I have ever done, or will do, that could cause God to "give up" on me. I also know that my behavior and actions are not necessarily condoned by God just because of that. I have experienced tremendous pain and consequences for my actions and God did not spare me from them, so he is not going to give me an excuse to just "live however I want".
But, I no longer see my self as continually unworthy. I see myself as the image of my King and I see everyone else that way as well. It has allowed me to see a glimpse of the love I am supposed to have, even for those I do not measure up to in their eyes. It has released my hatred for them and is allowing me to grow in the spirit rather than be in bondage to the letter of the law.
It has allowed me to understand friendship in the spirit with Jesus and my God. That has then shown me an aspect of human friendship I never thought possible.
Quote from: Nathan on January 13, 2009, 01:37:50 AM
"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"
Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:
:cloud9: Yes, Martin, that was powerful. Thanks for posting it.
And Molly; I don't have much time for the next 2 days, but I'll get to it. Blessings..
i was reading preston ebys stuff and i was really connecting with it.so i began telling a few others of the hope in revelations not the doom and gloom.a close friend mentioned that eby doesn't beleive in a hell so how could you be connecting with his studies.well my head started to spin, i had to get to the bottom of this quick
so i started researching the next day after 3 days,i came to the conclusion i'm going to trust in a everloving God.after that everything started to open up for me.
i loved to share-and this was the best news(at least i thought it was for everyone).i was on the fringe already, but this put me over according to my church friends
i went through a tough time of rejection to the point i had nobody to pray with me.so i found gary and phoned him.
so i find it now very important that we build each other up.so continue the good fight,God has an amazing plan laid up for each one of us!!!
blessings in the kingdom :icon_king:
A few months after the start of my Freshman year in college, I was reading an article about a seminar Rob Bell did and in it, he asked several questions which challenged some of the common conceptions regarding salvation. This got me asking questions about it myself and one of the subjects I came across was universalism. I had heard of it before but never really studied it indepth. I first began to read articles on Eric Stetson's site and it really challenged what I had always been taught concerning salvation and hell. The more I studied and prayed, the more convinced I became the universalism was true. I kind of straddled the fence for about two more years, saying that I hoped UR was true, and thought there was good evidence for it, but I wasn't quite ready to say for 100% sure that I believed it. Then, in my Junior year of school, I took a class on Romans, which was taught from the UR perspective (The professor is an open universalist.) After studying in that class and doing more studying and praying on my own, I can now say that I am a convinced universalist and it has completely changed my entire perspective on everything I thought I knew about God.
Quote from: Cardinal on January 13, 2009, 03:21:45 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 13, 2009, 01:37:50 AM
"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"
Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:
:cloud9: Yes, Martin, that was powerful. Thanks for posting it.
Really nice :thumbsup:
I am not really sure I can pinpoint how long it took me. I was in a 'traditional' church for years. Then in my late 40's I started really questioning some things they taught, so much it became a burden to find something I could convince myself they were correct. One was baptism, I knew the verses they used but some things did not make sense. It seemed the New Testament completely did away with the works of the Old Testament, and yet here we were, demanding other works for salvation. II have nothing against baptism, I recommend it to anyone but don't feel it is something one MUST do) It took me a long time actually and in the process I became a 'once-saved, always saved' believer and the next thing I knew I was pretty much of a Calvinist because of the verses which said that God did the choosing. It never entered my head to search out universalism. I did a lot of studying on sites that went more into depth on Bible passages and spiritual meanings of the historical characters. It became my passion. Then I found myself being more and more uncomfortable that God would only choose certain individuals for salvation and let the rest go to eternal misery. It had not really bothered me a lot before because I thought people chose not to believe in God/Jesus, tho I often mourned over those who were born into countires/situations where the God of the Bible was prohibited and little to no opportunity was available for those inidviduals to be exposed to God. I cried out to the Lord one day to reveal His character to me, no matter where it led me in my convictions. Then I recalled that some people believed that everyone would be saved and I did a search on the internet. Before that time, I refused to give that doctrine the time of day. The very first article I came across and I was in tears because I knew it was true. THEN I started searching for more articles that would explain the passages that seemed to teach hell was eternal. So. in one way, I converted instantly to universalism, in other ways, God was preparing my heart for the concept for years before that. After that, I searched for logical explanations to help present my case to relatives and friends. Of course nothing I could present would convince my sisters I wasn't crazy so I knew that no one else would be swayed until/unless God opened their hearts to it. So I just study for my own edification.
It has changed my life in that I no longer go to a church. I lost virtually my only social life back in Ohio, and was cut off from what little social life I had once I revealed my change in belief, tho that really started when I first came to my belief in OSAS. My sisters now regard me as some kind of misguided freak. On the upside, I am much more content in my relationship with the Father, not so worried about my works (not that I don't feel we should be doing good things but I know that God puts the desire in our hearts, we can't guilt ourselves into doing good). I don't mourn and ache for people that I once thought were going to spend an eternity in some kind of misery. So all in all it has been a very positive change.
Quote from: Jerm on January 13, 2009, 06:13:59 AM
A few months after the start of my Freshman year in college, I was reading an article about a seminar Rob Bell did and in it, he asked several questions which challenged some of the common conceptions regarding salvation. This got me asking questions about it myself and one of the subjects I came across was universalism. I had heard of it before but never really studied it indepth. I first began to read articles on Eric Stetson's site and it really challenged what I had always been taught concerning salvation and hell. The more I studied and prayed, the more convinced I became the universalism was true. I kind of straddled the fence for about two more years, saying that I hoped UR was true, and thought there was good evidence for it, but I wasn't quite ready to say for 100% sure that I believed it. Then, in my Junior year of school, I took a class on Romans, which was taught from the UR perspective (The professor is an open universalist.) After studying in that class and doing more studying and praying on my own, I can now say that I am a convinced universalist and it has completely changed my entire perspective on everything I thought I knew about God.
Another thing I didn't know!! I didn't know Rob Bell was a universalist. I love Rob Bell! I bought a DVD of his called Everything is Spiritual . . .PHENOMINAL!!! I played it's entirety during one of our services. I love this guy!!. His stuff on this dvd is a great segue into dimensional perspectives. I especially liked his take on God's reply on whether something is square or round (his answer is "yup".)
If you open up your Utube and type in "Rob Bell, everything is spritual" you can see some of his clips . .very good stuff. I tried to copy and paste the address . but I'm not sure if that works or not.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rob+bell+everything+is+spiritual&search_type=&aq=2&oq=rob+be
Yeah, it was interesting when a church I was in started using Rob bell's stuff, then mysteriously no one spoke about him any more. Finding out he was a universalist explained it. Not dissing Rob bell, some of his ideas I do not agree with. However, watching one of his DVD's (don't remember the name) but a person was shoveling snow all through his message. He kept glancing over, all the time I was waiting for him to go and get a shovel and go help, he never did, then I absolutely loved it when the lady shoveling snow was done and then went home to a different house.
All I could think upon seeing that, no matter what I didn't like about some of the other stuff he said was, "thats how I want to be"
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 13, 2009, 06:09:03 PM
Yeah, it was interesting when a church I was in started using Rob bell's stuff, then mysteriously no one spoke about him any more. Finding out he was a universalist explained it. Not dissing Rob bell, some of his ideas I do not agree with. However, watching one of his DVD's (don't remember the name) but a person was shoveling snow all through his message. He kept glancing over, all the time I was waiting for him to go and get a shovel and go help, he never did, then I absolutely loved it when the lady shoveling snow was done and then went home to a different house.
All I could think upon seeing that, no matter what I didn't like about some of the other stuff he said was, "thats how I want to be"
Yeah, other than Everything is Spiritual video, I really don't know much about his base. We ended up ordering like a dozen more of that DVD as those who saw the original one were really lit up by it as well. Can't say I disagree with anything he says . .as I don't know what else he says.
Quote from: Molly on January 13, 2009, 12:09:23 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.
I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL? :laughing7: Blessings....
Can you share that in any more detail? About the tabernacle..
Molly, there is a link from the savior-of-all.com site that goes to an excellent e-book on the tabernacle/ OT imagery. I can't remember if trying to go directly to the link instead of going through his site works or not, but I'll provide what I can here to try and make it easy for you to find. First, we'll try the direct link: http://www.savior-of-all.com/Creation%27s%20Jubilee.pdf
If that doesn't work, go to www.savior-of-all.com and click on the link that says "free downloads". This should take you to a page of .pdf books. Click on the one titled "Creation's Jubilee". Enjoy! There are many other great books and articles on that page and other link pages from Ken Eckerty's site as well.
Coming into the Scriptural revelation of UR was actually quite a bit easier than some of the deeper things that I've learned of God's Word since then. I've gained a real respect over the last 8 years for how complexly woven together the whole Bible is. Some things can't be "proven" in under a couple thousand passages. I wouldn't have believed in UR with under that. Postmillenialism and maybe 500 other things are about the same.
I've got one Bible devoted to UR with every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to Postmillenialism and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to the Hosea 2:18 covenant and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to faith and words and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to prosperity theology and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to studying the Amen and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to studying Light and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to studying the Anointing and every passage highlighted. One Bible devoted to studying evil and every passage highlighted. And on the selection goes, with each Bible labeled as to what it's about and accompanied with a 3 inch binder for notes.
I've started half a dozen new Bibles in the last couple of weeks in that way on stuff that very likely nobody's ever heard of. I'm genuinely not even sure what to call some things right now 'cause I'm so new to recognizing these new patterns I'm finding in the Scriptures. I get the feeling sometimes that Christ Jesus Himself is still learning from that Book. I've been stunned with finally knowing what to do with minor inconsistencies that I'd previously blown off as the most minor of textual errors as it was being copied during the dark ages by hand, but that once I knew what subject they belonged with, I'm starting to wander again towards a rigid Scriptural inerrancy 'cause I'm seeing why certain things are deliberately playful with the details. I'm starting to lean again towards "The Book's perfect. Anything you don't understand, you simply don't understand. Any kind of perceived errors is deeper layers you've not yet crossed the bridge on into."
I've never really wandered very far away from that, but I've totally bent over backwards previously with people that didn't quite see it that way 'cause I didn't know how to answer them about a few things that I'm about to corner in the Bible on how to answer such and such. Not every perceived problem that's been raised with the text so far, but some stunning ones that I hope to say much more about soon, somewhere online. But when I go there about some stuff, I'll have my outlines, word studies, and obscene number of texts ready to back it up. LOL! What I've been seeing recently is incredible! I'm not looking to corner anyone in particular, so I'm not getting into specifics and polarizing the boards before what I've got in the oven is even done. I'm just coming to a place of deep relief about finally knowing what's been behind certain alleged inconsistencies. I might be teetering on finding another type of Bible code that's not previously been discussed in all of the books that have previously debated the skip letter sequence and other forms of espionage secret patterns in the Bible about various stuff.
I don't see the type of evangelistic whatever out of what I'm starting to see that to me is a bunch of hype that people have tried to associate with the types of patterns in the Bible that they've previously looked at. The Bible already tells you about 75% of what any scientist would tell you as far as the rotation of the earth and of the galaxies, multiple demensions of space and time, etc., etc., etc. and if the obscene numbers of books, articles, and websites devoted to that kind of apologetics has only been minimally beneficial, then what I'm researching right now is going to wind up being more for believers than for unbelievers. As far as I'm concerned, just one more proof of it's divine inspiration isn't going to be very helpful for someone embalmed in unbelief, unless the Holy Spirit's already really talking with them. No one proof is the death of atheism, deism, skepticism, evolution, speciesism, chauvinism, etc., etc., etc.
I think that a lot of apologists get really over inflated about the value of any particular handful of consistencies that they're able to draw together about anything. It's a heart issue regarding anything that anyone would ever want to convince anyone of. Things that conclusively proved things to previous generations aren't necessarily going to do it for this and the next generation. St. Paul said that if you prayed in tongues enough and became skillful in the interpretation, then you could tell a sinner all of the secrets of their hearts, lifestyle, etc., etc. and they'd fall on their knees convinced that God was speaking through you. These days, many folks would think of satellite technology, computer worms, and tons and tons of other things, including alien or government implants, to try to get away from something staring them in the face of that nature. If they don't want to be accountable, then all you can do is alienate people by having all of the answers if the Holy Spirit isn't nearly finished with cornering them.
Supernatural and intellectual, or theological proofs will only go so far in a culture that's not God-fearing. And I won't get into anything stupid with anyone over semantics in how I put that. Of course I'm talking about respect, obedience, honor, submission, subjection, mindfulness, and all of the other things related to fear as it relates to God in the KJV. In a culture that's not God-fearing, then we must return to prayer for them with all of our hearts rather than to try to sharpen any number of apologetic tools conceivably at our disposal, whether supernatural, subjective, intellectual, theological, or whatever. 1Timothy 2 and 2Chronicles 7:14 must become the most important passages to us from here on out if we honestly want to reach anyone with any aspect of God's plan for their lives in Christ Jesus as it relates to any and every aspect of destiny that He has for their lives: spirit, soul, body, financially, and relationally.
:cloud9: You know Martin, that is a very good idea about highlighting different bibles like that. I used to do legal pads on specific topics until I just gave up as there was too much that led to too much that led to too much, and my handwriting got worse and worse, LOL. I think I might do that. Blessings....
sscoulter,
It took me about 3-4 months to finally accept it as fact after first hearing about it. No doubt in my mind now.
I no longer fear death. (for me or family/friends)
Funny how I came to the conclusion...I was obsessed with books about NDE's, esp. the negative ones. I read every 'hellish' NDE I could find. I think I was trying to get a picture of what hell was going to be like since I was 90% sure I was headed there.
One common theme with these hellish stories was that they all had happy endings. Howard Storm's book "My Descent into Death" started it all. (I wrote him multiple times asking him questions about his experience. I think he is an annihillst by the way, at lease he was when I corresponded with him)
I then found an article about some preacher speculating that maybe God does give a second chance after death. That got me thinking more. I then found some tentmaker articles and even called Gary Armirault on the phone and spoke with him for awhile.
So it was baby step after baby step that finally got me there.
I guess I have to remember that when I bring this up to people that still hold on to ET. Now, it's like, how on earth can you believe that Jesus was only successful in rescuing 5-10% of the population and the rest are lost forvever? How can anyone believe that? But, again, if someone told me about UR 5-10 years ago, I would have responded the same way.
Seek and you shall find. Hell bothered me my entire life, it was a concept I kept questioning over and over. Thank God He showed me truth. Good bye forever fear.
Quote from: Zero7 on April 08, 2009, 08:55:56 PM
sscoulter,
I then found an article about some preacher speculating that maybe God does give a second chance after death.
:cloud9: Amen, yes He does.....Blessings....
Hi Martin,
Highlighting is a good idea. This is the way I learned what the lake of fire was all about. Not to mention the writings of others. I took the word "fire" and looked up all the referrences and lo and behold I got a total different understanding than what I had before. This was a subject that I never could quite get until I did this.
CHB
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.
Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.
For me, it took... I don't know... 6 months maybe?
It was when I truly started to seek out God... (I had been researching different religions, etc. trying to find truth.) and I came back to Jesus, but got to the point of a near nervous breakdown (crying uncontrollably laying on the floor of my shower) and my testimony is similar to Hannah Whitall Smith's. Not being able to look people in the eye in public, for fear that I would lose it. I would start crying in public, looking at all the strangers wondering about their salvation, etc. Praying for my enemies. Praying for Doctors that ruined our families life. Not wanting anyone, even Hitler to suffer all eternity. And I just devoured every thing and slowly but surely he showed me the truth. A lot of strange little things happened. It was pretty cool. Slowly but surely, I started to trust that it was the truth and then I really started to devour stuff.. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 02:12:02 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.
Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.
:cloud9: I mean I was a blank slate when God got me and I didn't know WHAT to believe so believed nothing until HE showed me. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2009, 03:19:39 AM
Quote from: sparrow on April 09, 2009, 02:12:02 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on January 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM
:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to.
Do you mean that the thought of ET didn't bother you..? Or that you didn't think about it..?? Did you just block it out?
How come, no angst? I'm trying to understand a few people in real life, so your answers may help me.
:cloud9: I mean I was a blank slate when God got me and I didn't know WHAT to believe so believed nothing until HE showed me. Blessings...
So you never thought about the teaching of hell? It wasn't something that crossed your mind and you had to think about it? (Again, just trying to understand what you mean.) I wasn't indoctrinated either, but when I was researching, most in christianity believed in hell (eternal torment or annihilation) so it was something that had to be torn apart and looked at. Just wondering how you skipped even thinking about the idea of hell that so many seemed to hold?
(I'm not talking about BELIEVING, but thinking about, researching, studying, etc.)
:cloud9: Remember I said I was basically alone, and realizing that and not knowing who I could believe of all the countless denoms, I read that His Spirit could teach me and that was literally the second scripture I ever stood on. I had no idea how He was going to do that exactly, but believed He would.
So when He started to teach me (and I was finally aware of it) there were several things He told me concerning doctrines that I did not and would not understand in any depth for several years.
One of those things was that hell meant separation from God and that there were millions walking around in shoe leather that were "in hell". So I assumed that the multitudes were again wrong.
After all, from my point of view He had first destroyed the rapture doctrine for me before it could take hold, and the multitudes believed that, so WHAT ELSE were they wrong about? I found that frightening that so many people could be wrong, and I didn't really understand at that point how exactly that could happen if we all have the same book, I thought, how hard can this be really? :mshock: Boy, was I naive. :laughing7:
So I decided in my "infancy" that I wasn't staking my personal relationship with God on ANYBODY'S "theories" if I could help it. My "solution" was that I prayed every day before hours and hours of study, and always said; "I don't care what You teach me Lord, as long as I know it's Your truth."
When you KNOW you don't know anything about it, and you're not sure who does, it's a little fearful. I had no personal interest in studying anything about hell, I only wanted to know about Him. I figured if He wanted to show me anything else, He would, as I was a willing, albeit, blank slate. So that's basically my experience. Blessings....
ahhhh..... ok.
I understand now.
Thanks for explaining!
I understand much of where you're coming from.
I always had a problem with Hell. After thinking about it I finally realized that, as a father myself, I could never allow my child to suffer endless torment, no matter what his sin is. How could a God of infinite love do the same. I began to doubt my faith because all I was ever taught was that unless you're good enough(or whatever) you're gonna burn in hellfire for eternity.
It got to where I simply couldn't love much less evangelize for a God who would do that to his own children. But deep down I KNEW that something wasn't clicking. God wouldn't send his son to die a horrible death on the cross if he didn't love us. I'm sure some of you won't believe me but I prayed really hard about this and asked God to show me how he could love us so much and still have a hell.
The very next day I was just "surfing the web", not really looking for this and I stumbled upon some Universalist websites. And after reading some of them it was like a light going on. Now I understand. I don't know of the official doctrine, I don't know if there is even one but I believe that while people do pay for their sins in some way or another but that very few will be "cast into the fire".
Part of me still thinks that some will be tormented forever. The fact is that there are some truly evil people out there but the vast majority will eventually be reconciled with God our Father.
However, maybe none will be tormented forever. I'm new to this and need to study and pray more. But now I'm excited to spread the Word. Instead of making excuses for a God who tortures his own children forever, I can now talk about a God of love, who may punish and discipline his children but like any Father does not stop loving them.
I really liked the way that it was put in The Shack, where Mack is put in the judgment seat and 'given a choice' as to which of his kids gets saved vs. which go to hell. He of course didn't want to send any of his kids there, and asked to be sent there himself instead.
Quote from: Doc on April 22, 2009, 12:04:28 AM
I really liked the way that it was put in The Shack, where Mack is put in the judgment seat and 'given a choice' as to which of his kids gets saved vs. which go to hell. He of course didn't want to send any of his kids there, and asked to be sent there himself instead.
yes that was very good. indeed.
peace
euty
I was raised in a way that I believed it was never God sending people to hell . . . he made it for the demons and because people rejected God . .they were sending themselves to hell. Just like I also believed that it's impossible to lose your salvation . . .but it "is" possible for you to walk away from it. What Christ did on the cross didn't actually redeem you . . .it just gave you the option for redemption if you so chose it.
The underlying belief there is . . . it's all about "me" and "my" decisions. It is giving my mind the power and not the cross.
Quote from: sscoulter on January 12, 2009, 09:25:13 PM
Hello friends,
As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.
Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?
Peace.
S
It seems like it was about 6 months of reading many articles found on Tentmaker. Just prior to finding Tentmaker I was crying out to God to show me the truth and show me what Babylon is. I was weary of the differences in all the churches I'd attended and visited over the years. Looking back, there was an inner witness to this truth many times throughout my life that was constantly muffled by church teachings. Believing in ET/Hell was a great burden to me from the time I was a very young child. I used to turn certain scriptures over carefully in my mind that pointed to UR and gravitate toward them, never even dreaming that they might in fact actually be true. For example, that all the families of the earth would be blessed because of Abraham's faith. And Abraham's children being more in number than the grains of sand and stars....
Once this truth gets into you, you will not be able to 'go back' - and who would want to?
Anne