The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Zeek]

of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all.  It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards".  The commandment if obeyed would lead to life.  There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Because He saw the end from the beginning? Blessings...

yes, but did he "intend" for the end to be the way it is from the beginning?  if so, then the "command" really wasn't intended for life, but for death.  For me, this supports what pneuma is saying, that the sacrifice of Jesus, was not the original intent, but the "weaving" of evil for good. 

Except the verse doesn't really say "intend" at all.  It says "into, to, unto, for, in, on, towards".  The commandment if obeyed would lead to life.  There was nothing wrong with the commandment, only with the hearers of the commandment.

I believe that all these verses below applied as much to Adam as they did to Paul.  All die in Adam.  It is not just a problem of having sinned it is a problem of BEING a sinner.

Romans 7:11-20

• 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
• 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
• 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
• 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
• 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
• 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
• 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
• 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
• 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The alternate conclusion is that Adam had "special" flesh wherein unlike Paul dwelt good.  And Adam could not have said "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me".  No, no sin dwelled in Adam.  He sinned in a different way than we all sin.

Where is the scripture that says man's nature changed after Adam sinned?

But there is something still too the Adam was not deceived, and  Eve was.  Was Paul deceived??  or was he like  Adam??

Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

[Cardinal]

It has been said that the devil, unable to overcome Adam, struck at Eve, the weaker vessel, in order to take down Adam.  But really, is it not true that, "The lesser is overcome by the greater?"  Much has been made of Adam as head of Eve, ruling her as a head over a body.  But, Adam is head of Eve, as source, like the head-waters of the Nile is where the river originates.  Look at the Eden story again.

Day after day God made increasingly complicated life forms.  From inanimate things to plants, from fish to the higher animals, and finally He made man, the crown of His creation.  But wait, He actually went a step farther.  He made woman.  Adam was made from the dust of the earth; but, Eve was made from an already refined substance.  We are not told that the woman was called by a personal name until after the entrance of sin and death which overturned how God originally made things.

The creatures were brought before Adam to name.  This means he spoke a revelation of the nature, a sum of identity and a delineation of destiny of each beast.  To give such expression from within himself created within him the awareness for something to correspond with him.  "Yet for the human He does not find a helper as his compliment." (Gn 2:20, CLV)  God was defining a cultivated hunger, creating a specific emptiness that He would fill; like in God, where there had been only God, the little lamb was slain away from in order to make a place for something that was not God, a cosmos and its "casting down" (which was either its "lowering" out of the knowledge of God into manifestation, or, after initially being, here its "disruption" by the entrance of sin and death.)  This creation was as a womb by which God would create a vast family of beings like himself with whom to have intimate fellowship.  He put into a deep sleep the ultimate manifestation of Himself within it to bring forth from its side a bowed chamber that "is bone of my bone and flesh of His flesh."

Into that emptiness, that need we bring to Him to fill which we are unable to satisfy, He places something of Himself.  The seed that begins with the wonder of the love of God appearing within will ultimately become the victory that swallows down death, the measure of the stature of the fullness of His exact image and likeness in immortal reproduction.

It was out of love that Adam joined Eve, "...and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating." (Gn 3:6)  Out of love Christ joins the Church in death.

The door of perpetual entrance:
Matthew 5:3,10 . . .
"Happy (blessed,) in spirit ("even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead" Ja 2:26), are the poor (beggars who have nothing of their own, like an empty womb) for theirs (belong to them as their right and from them them as its source) is the kingdom of the heavens (which rules over all.) your brother, James Rohde

:cloud9:  Good post. :thumbsup: He showed me the same thing about the naming of the animals by Adam. Blessings....

[Zeek]

So disobedience is the cross??

No.  The death/persecution of innocence for [the wellbeing of] another is the cross.




John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

but if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,

in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command. 

[Zeek]

Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

[bobf]

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

In that case same same verse says that the commandment was discovered to be intended for death.

• Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

[Zeek]

G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.

In that case same same verse says that the commandment was discovered to be intended for death.

• Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

yes, by Paul. 

[bobf]

but if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,

in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command. 

If Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law.  I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.

• Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

<br>

• Leviticus 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

<br>

• John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[Zeek]

but if your implying Adam layed down his life for Eve, in similtude to what Christ did for the church,

in so doing (Adam laying down his life for Eve), he did it through disobedience to the command. 

If Adam layed down his life for Eve out of love then perhaps he disobeyed the letter of the commandment only since love fulfills all the law.  I wonder how else Adam could have been a type of Christ.

• Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

<br>

• Leviticus 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

<br>

• John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

interesting point. 

[bobf]

yes, by Paul.

I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.

[Zeek]

I might get hammered for the translation, but thought these verses were interesting.  Still thinking on the "not deceived" and "willful sin" vs. "sin out of deception".

12 How can I know all the sins lurking in my heart?
 Cleanse me from these hidden faults.

13 Keep your servant from deliberate sins!
 Don't let them control me.
Then I will be free of guilt
 and innocent of great sin.

14 May the words of my mouth
 and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing to you,
 O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

[Zeek]

yes, by Paul.

I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.

but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was.      So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived??  then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived? 


 

[bobf]

but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was.      So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived??  then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?

No, I think you're right -- Adam was not deceived when he ate the fruit.  But does one have to be decieved to find out that the commandment is "unto" death?  One just has to sin, deceived or not.

Anyway, I just started thinking about this Adam did it for the love of Eve thing and "fulfilled the law" while breaking the letter.  I've heard that before but just started pondering it.   If Adam truly fulfilled the law as a type of Christ, completely out of love, then he didn't sin.  Why would God punish Adam for doing what is righteous.  So now I'm having problems with that view.  I'm thinking it was a merely shadow of what Christ did.  Or maybe that's not how Adam typified Christ.  Dunno.

[Molly]

yes, by Paul.

I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.

but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was.      So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived??  then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived? 


 

Adam wasn't deceived.  He knew what he was doing and what would happen.

But, .. love covers over a multitude of sins.

And, he and Eve lived to see another day (albeit outside of the garden).

[bobf]

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh...

It seems pretty clear to me from Genesis that Eve was weak through the flesh.  She sinned before she ever ate the fruit.  The view that Adam & Eve were capable of keeping God's commandments imples they did not share our "weakness through the flesh".  That in turn means we are not like Adam & Eve were originally and seems to collide with 1 Corintians 15.

[Zeek]

yes, by Paul.

I think Adam discovered the same since he also died.

but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was.      So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived??  then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived? 


 

Adam wasn't deceived.  He knew what he was doing and what would happen.

But, .. love covers over a multitude of sins.

And, he and Eve lived to see another day (albeit outside of the garden).

hmmm, wow.  more to ponder

[Zeek]

but he wasnt' deceived, Paul was.      So afterward, you are saying then Adam realized he actually was deceived??  then why would Paul write that Adam wasn't deceived?

No, I think you're right -- Adam was not deceived when he ate the fruit.  But does one have to be decieved to find out that the commandment is "unto" death?  One just has to sin, deceived or not.

Anyway, I just started thinking about this Adam did it for the love of Eve thing and "fulfilled the law" while breaking the letter.  I've heard that before but just started pondering it.   If Adam truly fulfilled the law as a type of Christ, completely out of love, then he didn't sin.  Why would God punish Adam for doing what is righteous.  So now I'm having problems with that view.  I'm thinking it was a merely shadow of what Christ did.  Or maybe that's not how Adam typified Christ.  Dunno.

yeah, me too.  that's the first thing that came to my mind, "why the punishment"

[Zeek]

and who is Ezek 28 talking about. 

I see it as talking about Adam.

[Molly]

:cloud9: Hey, Molly.......the midst of the garden is the inner court (midst of the tabernacle pattern) where the table of shewbread and the candlestick were......

Hi Cardinal, I'll have to disagree with you there. The garden might be the inner court, but the two trees are in the midst of the garden.




19 And he made the oracle in the midst of the house, in the inner part, to set there the ark of the covenant of the Lord

--1 Kings 6 [Douay-Rheims, building of Solomon's temple]


27And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

--1 Kings 6 [KJV]


The ark is found in the midst of the temple.  The tabernacle and the Levite priests are in the midst of the camp--


Numbers 2:17
Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.


Circle within circle, God is always in the midst, the innermost part.


"in the midst" [of the garden]
H8432
תּוך
tâvek
taw'-vek
From an unused root meaning to sever; a bisection, that is, (by implication) the centre: - among (-st), X between, half, X (there-, where-) in (-to), middle, mid [-night], midst (among), X out (of), X through, X with (-in).


Plus, I consider Adam the first high priest, therefore it would be suitable for him to enter into the holy of holies. :icon_queen:

[bobf]

and who is Ezek 28 talking about.    I see it as talking about Adam.

I have no problem thinking it was Adam, I just do not think it was Adam only.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What I am saying is, the two trees are in the midst, but the midst in the tabernacle pattern is in the inner court, because the two trees (two things to partake of) are the table of shewbread (TOKOGAE) and the light of the candlestick (TOL). I agree that Adam was the first HP, but he forfeited his position and thereby his right to enter in to closer relationship "beyond the veil". If he could have done it, then there would have been no need for a second one to come and do sacrifice. Blessings....

[legoman]

Would it be strange that God "the all-knowing" knew what the snake was up to and didn't tell eve not to trust the snake, I wonder.....Jesus cannot be the last adam if Eve knew about God's warning, would it not? Of all God's green earth, of all 45,000 mile away, God place two lonely human near that tree, don't you find it a little strange?

Yes that is a little strange - unless you realize God intended it all to happen...  There was never a PLAN B.  PLAN A is perfect!

[sheila]

 the life was in the blood, Adams life was taken from him when

  he ate of the tokogae..so he could not redeem Eve.

  that is why Jesus Christ had to come and lay his down willingly

   so that the power of an eternal life could be imparted and

   redeem

  death can not redeem death, but the power of an

indestructable life  Now that BLOOD CAN AND DOES REDEEM

[IceDash]

It's weird that in adam we die, in Jesus we rise, but what about eve?

it like man more important than woman?

[sheila]

ID

  I don't think so. They are one flesh.Adam mean's MAN

  Adam was formed first[eve still dwelling inside him]

   It was when they were seperated that they became

  vulnerable..eve no longer was surrounded byAdam.

   when we don't remain IN CHRIST[the last Adam] we are

vulnerable also.