World outside AMERICA

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think I did read it before I came to the Lord, actually. But I was unaware he saw their "blueprints" beforehand. That would make sense as to why he was so "prophetic" almost. Hmmm..... :mshock:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Alright,  lets back up and be specific here.

Lets be specific about this issue of disease in Africa.   This is nothing new and the state of american government does not explain anything, especially past efforts.

For the last 30 years I have heard about these troubles overseas, for 30 years I have heard Christians talk about missions and humanitarian aid and education for africa to solve this issue and after 30 years the excuse of our current affairs within the last 8 years is unacceptable, that is not the problem.   And if it actually is, then please explain the time warp principal that caused the last 8 years to affect thge prior 30 years or even long before that.  That should really be a great note to read.

I'm asking anyone, but especially those that stand up so quickly and point at America and our government but never really have anything to say to explain why the efforts that have been peaceful have not worked for that specific issue during the time in which I have heard that America has used our resources, money and blessing to try to help.

What is the problem that it has not helped.   And what will cause it to help.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I'm going to say something and it may shock some as it did me when He dropped it into my Spirit, but throwing money at people that are in judgment for idolatry does little to help their condition and ultimately is only a temporary fix in the natural for what is inherently a spiritual condition.

God has set up a system whereby the pressures exerted force man to find HIM. It is possible therefore in our well-doing that is NOT led of the Spirit, to alleviate the temporal conditions of man without fixing the root of the problem by leading them to life-changing, life-sustaining, RELATIONSHIP with Christ, which only necessitates that we do it all over again and again.

It creates a dependency, just like ONLY bringing people to Christ and not being willing or able to teach them how to walk IN Christ and mature in Christ, creates a dependent generation of pew sitters that never mature.

This has been the overall root problem of why we still have to battle the descendants of Ham in the middle east, over and over again, because we go in and obliterate dictators and free the people, only for them to PEACEFULLY, live in sin and ignorance of the savior for a season. This is why our military or anyone's military will NEVER bring true lasting peace anywhere in the world, because they themselves, if they have it, are not (officially) allowed to share it. My  :2c: Blessings....

[fire walker]

Orwell was off line by setting dates, beyond that much of what he wrote about in the approach to his 1984 prophetic view concerning the doings of man have actualy
come to pass though at a later time, thing is we don't walk in fear of these things because our eyes are on the one above. at the same time though for me as I see it to put my head in the sand and wear rose colored glasses and deny that such things have, may or can occur would be the same as to deny there is evil in the world or that there are doers of evil in power in high places in the world, to say there has never been, is not or shall not be powers of darkness in high places would not be truthful, their is an end to these in Gods time not mans, we actualy do wrestle with the principalities, powers of darkness and spiritual wickedness in high places within ourselves and out in the world, not flesh and blood, the Lord himself wrestled with these same things just as we do, he was tempted like all men, yet he knew it was not flesh and blood because it is spiritual, he is from above we are from below, That to me points to the things above, he did not give in to those who tempted him to become a worldly leader or King of the Jews while on Earth because his work is from above, spiritual and not of this world, not just beyond America and all other Countries, it is beyond this world , he prepared a place for us, until then we are as wayfaring strangers passing through a foriegn land. I believe it.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[noname]

some of us have touched on throwing money at the problem...and yes, when one does that there are a few unscrupulous people who would catch that before it reaches those it was intended for...

i'm rethinking, instead of combat troops on ground...why not have people trained to create peace instead of war...why not send in the army engineer's battalions for starters to build bridges (literally and figuretively)...people on the ground need to see the "change" they've been hearing about...

I've been in the military as well and I know how quickly facilities can be set up...water purification plants, shelter, medical facilities...just think if a few battalions do this to really show the heart of America (which I think is still there even though being depressed by the federal government)...don't you guys think this could bring REAL change to people's lives?

like Jesus said...give without wanting anything in return...if one has enough...shouldn't one share? on a personal and national level?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think that would be an excellent idea if they were also trained to build spiritual bridges.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've been in the military as well and I know how quickly facilities can be set up...water purification plants, shelter, medical facilities...just think if a few battalions do this to really show the heart of America (which I think is still there even though being depressed by the federal government)...don't you guys think this could bring REAL change to people's lives?

So, what do you do when the countries government allows this but militants within the country that the government can not control want to come and take over the facilities you just built?

[chuckt]

The world does what it does including the USA.

men will continue to rise up and think they can fix things.

the beast rises in the sea of humanity claiming to be God.


as men continue to think they can fix the problems and ""save"" the earth it will wax worse and worse.

iniquity will continue war will continue till the end, let not your love wax cold.

either physically or supernaturally ONLY God thru Christ will it be fixed.

LOVE is the only answer we have at this point, so let us pursue love with all dilligence to the peole we come into contact each day.

i beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.


God bless
chuckt.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The world does what it does including the USA.

men will continue to rise up and think they can fix things.

the beast rises in the sea of humanity claiming to be God.


as men continue to think they can fix the problems and ""save"" the earth it will wax worse and worse.

iniquity will continue war will continue till the end, let not your love wax cold.

either physically or supernaturally ONLY God thru Christ will it be fixed.

LOVE is the only answer we have at this point, so let us pursue love with all dilligence to the peole we come into contact each day.

i beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.


God bless
chuckt.

Depends on what fixing is expected.  Things can change, but it is the unrealistic manner of change many people expect and subsequently use to see failure.

[chuckt]

The world does what it does including the USA.

men will continue to rise up and think they can fix things.

the beast rises in the sea of humanity claiming to be God.


as men continue to think they can fix the problems and ""save"" the earth it will wax worse and worse.

iniquity will continue war will continue till the end, let not your love wax cold.

either physically or supernaturally ONLY God thru Christ will it be fixed.

LOVE is the only answer we have at this point, so let us pursue love with all dilligence to the peole we come into contact each day.

i beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.


God bless
chuckt.

Depends on what fixing is expected.  Things can change, but it is the unrealistic manner of change many people expect and subsequently use to see failure.

the world thinks it can fix it by the power of men.

question:

is it gods plan to change the world? and if so is he to  do it thru ""christianity" and conversion to it?

chuckt

[Paul Hazelwood]

the world thinks it can fix it by the power of men.

question:

is it gods plan to change the world? and if so is he to  do it thru ""christianity" and conversion to it?

chuckt

Well some things man does a fine job with in the reality of what is observable and it also does a fine job of deflating and deterring people from trying.

Christianity can bite me,  I am talking about a specific situation that men can talk about and offer solutions too.

The troubles in africa is not about "fixing the world"  it is about what can be done to make a difference and why the efforts we hear about that people promote as the "peaceful" solution do not work.

Do you think a starving disease ridden person gives a crap about some missionary holding a bible telling them God loves them and that will make then feel better?

Do we say  "Sorry people of africa" us americans don't really give a crap about you because we have our own troubles.  But God loves you (smile).


Is the answer as simple as its Gods plan that the people of africa suffer so suck it up?   I mean what are you really saying here?

[Paul Hazelwood]

God has set up a system whereby the pressures exerted force man to find HIM. It is possible therefore in our well-doing that is NOT led of the Spirit, to alleviate the temporal conditions of man without fixing the root of the problem by leading them to life-changing, life-sustaining, RELATIONSHIP with Christ, which only necessitates that we do it all over again and again.

You touch upon a problem then of believers agreeing on what actions prove that someone is led by the spirit.

The nauseating (to me) sermon of 35,000 souls a day pouring into hell because Christians were not reaching those who have never heard the name of Jesus fast enough was applauded by people who then appeared not to be nauseated by such false teachings. 


So what would the picture of a universalist mission program be?

To me it would be to do as much as we can without trying to convert and bring false hope to starving and disease ridden people.

The united states is far from being disease free or hunger free, that does not mean our efforts to improve things are in vain. 

According to "Christianity" and possibly some universalists, we should be able to send missionaries to people work with them to convince them about Jesus Christ and that will change the world.

What I am saying is that my 30 years of observation has seen no such results in any significant manner, if at all from the message that people teach along the lines of believing and receiving.  Their out is that they did their job but everyone else is not doing theirs.  I say hogwash,  I think the message is flawed since there are a lot of spoken claims that people do this and that, all these healings excorsisms and such,  but in 33,000 christian denominations if even 1 person in all those 33,000 spots around the world was excersizing the true brunt of what they assert then we would not only hear these claims in internet forums and "religious" publications.

What I have seen is that when people act for the mere sake of acting, more things happen then if man asserts they represent God in any manner while they are acting.

I personally have done things for people and never witnessed to them, just helped and went about my business.  That is not me propping myself up, it is the point that i think we should act first with wreckless abandon and let God fill the voids rather than assert that we have captured this power of the spirit that we can wield with our physical body like some wizard.

[chuckt]

the world thinks it can fix it by the power of men.

question:

is it gods plan to change the world? and if so is he to  do it thru ""christianity" and conversion to it?

chuckt

Well some things man does a fine job with in the reality of what is observable and it also does a fine job of deflating and deterring people from trying.

Christianity can bite me,  I am talking about a specific situation that men can talk about and offer solutions too.

The troubles in africa is not about "fixing the world"  it is about what can be done to make a difference and why the efforts we hear about that people promote as the "peaceful" solution do not work.

Do you think a starving disease ridden person gives a crap about some missionary holding a bible telling them God loves them and that will make then feel better?

Do we say  "Sorry people of africa" us americans don't really give a crap about you because we have our own troubles.  But God loves you (smile).


Is the answer as simple as its Gods plan that the people of africa suffer so suck it up?   I mean what are you really saying here?

im saying the poor will always be among us. you want me to boast? i give to the poor and the cause of the hungry. do i know how much of my money actually makes it?

i feel real sorry for the poor souls in africa, i also feel real sorry for the poor souls here in my backyard.


when YOU can come up with a way to feed all of africa and continue to feed them till the sun burns out, GOD BLESS YOU>


i percieve america gives alot and does alot for the people of africa, can we do more? always, can we fix it 100% HELL NO!

To think we men of america can fix the woes of africa is indeed pitifull.



i care less about the bible thumpers also and wasnt even part of my subject.


I CAN ONLT DO WHAT I CAN DO.

ONCE YOU FIX ONE COUNTRIES PROBLEMS ANOTHER ONE COMES RIGHT BEHIND IT.

WE will NOT fix this world. im not saying nmot to do our part in helping and feeding the hungry!


God bless
chuckt

[Paul Hazelwood]

the world thinks it can fix it by the power of men.

question:

is it gods plan to change the world? and if so is he to  do it thru ""christianity" and conversion to it?

chuckt

Well some things man does a fine job with in the reality of what is observable and it also does a fine job of deflating and deterring people from trying.

Christianity can bite me,  I am talking about a specific situation that men can talk about and offer solutions too.

The troubles in africa is not about "fixing the world"  it is about what can be done to make a difference and why the efforts we hear about that people promote as the "peaceful" solution do not work.

Do you think a starving disease ridden person gives a crap about some missionary holding a bible telling them God loves them and that will make then feel better?

Do we say  "Sorry people of africa" us americans don't really give a crap about you because we have our own troubles.  But God loves you (smile).


Is the answer as simple as its Gods plan that the people of africa suffer so suck it up?   I mean what are you really saying here?

im saying the poor will always be among us. you want me to boast? i give to the poor and the cause of the hungry. do i know how much of my money actually makes it?

i feel real sorry for the poor souls in africa, i also feel real sorry for the poor souls here in my backyard.


when YOU can come up with a way to feed all of africa and continue to feed them till the sun burns out, GOD BLESS YOU>


i percieve america gives alot and does alot for the people of africa, can we do more? always, can we fix it 100% HELL NO!

To think we men of america can fix the woes of africa is indeed pitifull.



i care less about the bible thumpers also and wasnt even part of my subject.


I CAN ONLT DO WHAT I CAN DO.

ONCE YOU FIX ONE COUNTRIES PROBLEMS ANOTHER ONE COMES RIGHT BEHIND IT.

WE will NOT fix this world. im not saying nmot to do our part in helping and feeding the hungry!


God bless
chuckt

Your right, we cannot fix the "world" and there is no promise that we can,  we can however, do what we can with what we have to work with.

That is the point I am working on getting across,  the ney sayers seem to think america doesn't care.   I disagree, I think america often does things because reality is an issue. 

I think there are those that believe we have the means to fix it if we would only do things a certain way,  I think they do not know what they are talking about.

I also agree that we should always try.   What I ask of the neysayers is if our military presence and our meddling in the affairs of other countries is not the way to go about it, I can reasonably understand some of those things.

What is not being explained is that america DOES try to peacfully intervene and they are not explaining why those efforts appear to be futile.

[chuckt]

Your right, we cannot fix the "world" and there is no promise that we can,  we can however, do what we can with what we have to work with.

why didnt you say so  :LH: yes i wish i personally could do more also.....

That is the point I am working on getting across,  the ney sayers seem to think america doesn't care.   I disagree, I think america often does things because reality is an issue. 

oh yes i agree very much here!

Paul,

i am sorry if  we got our messages cross as it seems me and you are in agreement here. and thanks for the reply, spot on.  :ok:

God bless
chuckt  :hithere:

[Paul Hazelwood]

No problem chuck,  all is good.   

[Cardinal]

So what would the picture of a universalist mission program be?

To me it would be to do as much as we can without trying to convert and bring false hope to starving and disease ridden people.

:cloud9: That's exactly what they HAVE been doing and it clearly doesn't work.

According to "Christianity" and possibly some universalists, we should be able to send missionaries to people work with them to convince them about Jesus Christ and that will change the world.

:cloud9: A mere handful of Spirit filled men changed the world in their generation and there's no reason to think another handful couldn't, if they were TRULY Spirit filled.

The main problem in trying to get anything done is lack of funds and that is a direct result of the condition that exists in this country, which is the separation of church and State that is overboard and discriminatory towards only Christians.

In the line of work I was previously in, I was told that if I spoke the name of Jesus I'd be fired on the spot because they get government money.

What I am saying is that my 30 years of observation has seen no such results in any significant manner, if at all from the message that people teach along the lines of believing and receiving.  Their out is that they did their job but everyone else is not doing theirs.  I say hogwash,  I think the message is flawed since there are a lot of spoken claims that people do this and that, all these healings excorsisms and such,  but in 33,000 christian denominations if even 1 person in all those 33,000 spots around the world was excersizing the true brunt of what they assert then we would not only hear these claims in internet forums and "religious" publications.

:cloud9: Not necessarily. In our "modern rational" age and way of looking at things, if you go around professing to be doing these things to too many people outside of the ones you're actually ministering to, you run the risk of being ostracized in a big way, and as well as becoming possible fodder for potential lawsuits. Sometimes you have to be wise as a serpent in your dealings with people.

I had a friend a few years back who was having such success with getting people back in their right mind after delivering them of the demons that made them "crazy", she was banned from going to a mental hospital as a chaplain because they told her they had had a board meeting over her, and she was costing them too much money from having to release people.

And this is not to say that everyone in such a setting is demonized and that there are no chemical and biological reasons for their illnesses, only that NOT ALL are in there for those reasons alone.

What I have seen is that when people act for the mere sake of acting, more things happen then if man asserts they represent God in any manner while they are acting.

I personally have done things for people and never witnessed to them, just helped and went about my business.  That is not me propping myself up, it is the point that i think we should act first with wreckless abandon and let God fill the voids rather than assert that we have captured this power of the spirit that we can wield with our physical body like some wizard.

:cloud9: Those that have been baptized in the Spirit of God, which means they are anointed (set apart for service) for these very works (they shall cast out devils the first and second days as the Lord said), have NO POWER apart from Him and can ONLY do His perfect will, and so there is no danger of "wielding" anything "like some wizard". Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see what your saying cardinal and sorry that I don't buy it, not that your lying or anything, but I see what I see.

Why is it that it appears that these spirit filled men claim such success only to be defeated by mere man and his laws? 

Why does that power not distribute and win over those who would "ostrasize"?   How am I to believe such stories of men spirit filled so easily defeated?

[Cardinal]

I see what your saying cardinal and sorry that I don't buy it, not that your lying or anything, but I see what I see.

Why is it that it appears that these spirit filled men claim such success only to be defeated by mere man and his laws? 

:cloud9: I totally understand your disbelief Paul, if you've never been exposed to anything like what I'm telling you. I would have never believed it, either, if the Lord had not manifested in this way with me and others I was around in the beginning of my walk with Him.

But there again, as I said earlier, it's a matter of being led by His Spirit and being wise as a serpent. HE is the choreographer, and our steps are ordered by Him. He once let me cause a "quiet" stir in a nursing home I filled in briefly at. You are not told anything about the patients, and therefore I had no idea what I had walked into the first night, in the first room I went in.

The patient was naked, tongue hanging out of her mouth (side effect of psychotropic drug use), totally incontinent.

She looked at me and plainly said, "Help me, I'm in hell."

I said, "Praise God, that's what I'm here for."

And she went back to non-stop, nonsensical, garbled, repetitive speech. I asked the Lord to let me cast out anything that was not of His Spirit and there against His perfect will for her, and then did so. I then asked her to within herself, TO HIM, ask Him to be Lord of her life. Then I cleaned her up and dressed her. I then asked her if she was hungry and she told me she was, and she went back to her normal speech. So I went out to the nurse's station and asked her if I could give the woman in room 1 something to eat (it was late evening).

The nurse said, "How do you know she wants it?"

I said, "She told me."

The nurse said, "I'll be there in 5 minutes, get her a nutritional drink."

So I go back in to the patient, and I thought, if she can repeat things, I'll have her sing with me a song I had just learned. It went J-E-S-U-S, you are my everything, J-E-S-U-S, my everything.

I didn't think she'd remember it more than 5 seconds, LOL,; my "bad". So when the nurse came in, the patient was lying dressed, hands folded, drinking her drink, and singing in between gulps.

I was stunned to look up and see the nurse frozen in the doorway, tears streaming down her face. She stood there for about 2 minutes, then hollered for the aide on duty, which besides me and the nurse, was the only staff on duty. I thought, "Oh, Lord, I'm fired now, she just called for a witness (over the song)!"

Turns out, when they both stopped crying, they told me the woman could not speak anything intelligently, and would require 3 people to hold her down to clean and feed her, as she fought like a tomcat. They wrongly assumed I'd start at the end of the list of rooms they gave me (so as to be closer to the other worker since I was new) and I went to the beginning on the other side of the building. So I had no idea, no warning, but God knew was what needed.

The woman had been in an institution for 40 years, and had not spoken in 20. The nurse, by the grace of God, was a Baptist and didn't turn me in, keeping our "secret" and smiling when all the other nurses remarked over this woman's amazing recovery and talkativeness. She told them she had been raped for years in the institution. The patient said, "They didn't think I knew what they were doing, but I did."

She was hospitalized with pneumonia before I came back on shift. The nurse told me of the woman's restored ability to talk intelligently and that she had asked my name and told her to tell me she loved me. She slipped into a coma and did not come out of it, while in the hospital. But the woman passed AT PEACE, and to GOD be all the glory.

Why does that power not distribute and win over those who would "ostrasize"?   How am I to believe such stories of men spirit filled so easily defeated?

:cloud9: It's not a question of defeat, but as I said before God has a plan for each individual, and He will not empower us to do anything beyond that plan at that exact point in time.

I hope to live to see and envision a day in the not too distant future, when the sons of God will be fully exposed, from being fully filled and anointed with the Spirit without measure, just as their elder brother was, and then they will turn the world upside down again. Blessings...

[reFORMer]

I see what your saying cardinal and sorry that I don't buy it, not that your lying or anything, but I see what I see.

Why is it that it appears that these spirit filled men claim such success only to be defeated by mere man and his laws? 

Why does that power not distribute and win over those who would "ostrasize"?   How am I to believe such stories of men spirit filled so easily defeated?

Really, that, in part, is the story of the crucifixion of Christ.  He was despised, rejected of men...they hated Him without a cause.  If He was of God, why didn't God save Him?  "He saved others; but, Himself He cannot save," is what the people at the cross said.

Look at the story of Elijah.  Israel knew how he had stopped the rain, called down fire, slew the priests of Baal.  Yet, Jesus pointed out, when He was at His home town (where they tried to kill Him), that, "There were many leppers in Israel in the days of Elijah; but, only one, Naaman, a Syrian [so a "gentile"] was healed."

I would add that most of what happens among Godly people is VERY under reported.  Research a while back yielded a whole book on the nature of those in media.  One figure I remember was 9 out of 10 journalists had never been in a church building, even to get out of the rain.  Yet, they all felt they were responsible to induce their public to think like themselves.

Here is a similar observation in Scripture:  "You convict, you murder the just; he is not resisting you." (James 5:6, CLV)  I know when they were going to pray in the garden on the night of His arrest Jesus asked if those with Him had a sword and they said they did.  He answered them, "That's sufficient."  There is a place allowed for those following Jesus to take up arms.  Yet, the Christians in 2,000 years of history have never even had an army.  The Knights Templar were the closest thing to it.  Anyway, it is a big subject you've raised.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I totally understand your disbelief Paul, if you've never been exposed to anything like what I'm telling you. I would have never believed it, either, if the Lord had not manifested in this way with me and others I was around in the beginning of my walk with Him.

It is not about my disbelief actually, I am at the mercy of your words, if I have misunderstood you I apologize.

You wrote the following in the note that I responded to.

A mere handful of Spirit filled men changed the world in their generation and there's no reason to think another handful couldn't, if they were TRULY Spirit filled.

The issue I see is that this assertion is made, then following that you appear to be talking about examples of spirit filled men in the modern day as if what you have seen or experienced was people TRULY spirit filled..

I may be misunderstanding what your getting at.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I guess what I'm trying to explain (badly) is that we are in the in-part realm, BUT, at His direction even in only being endowed IN-PART, we are still used in this day and age to do some of the things that Jesus did.

BUT; the in-part realm, the two days He was talking about, is coming to a close, in which we must choose to allow Him to finish the work in us, that we may be FULLY FILLED, FULLY ANOINTED, as our elder brother was, to do the GREATER WORKS He said we would do. Blessings....

[Taffy]

God has set up a system whereby the pressures exerted force man to find HIM.

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Card  :icon_flower:

Sure enjoyed your uplifting posts on this thread, specailly that of the speechless patient... :HeartThrob:

AWESOME :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, God is amazing and exciting; there is no way you could NOT want to walk with Him if you are witnessing His power and mercy. Blessings....