The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Doc]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.

But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.

No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.

So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.

[CHB]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc.  Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He is "Lord of heaven and earth"  :thumbsup:.

Amen brother jabcat!!!  I knew we were kin. :laughing7:

CHB

[sheila]

 couldn't 'his being the Lamb slain from before the founding of

the world' entail all mankind as part of His body having to

 suffer corruption/death from the adversarial nature of satan..the approaching

 lowering into corruption of mankind.? For all mankind[good

 seed]sown into the earth must need die to bear fruit in heaven

 I take to bear fruit in heaven to mean be raised incorruptible..

 perfection in the image of the Father. Also, the scripture is

there yet any seed in the barn? To me it speaks of the seed yet

to be sown in the earth.and I am the first and I am the last

speaks of all the seed of mankind sown in the earth by God.

  And the LAMB'S identity is bound up with mankind /people as

the sheep of my pasture. For we are as like a lamb led to our

slaughter and we are all like sheep that have gone astray


  Also, Adam was given dominion over the earth...the adversary

was not of this earth..but was in heaven in the beginning..and

 dominion was something he erronously coveted.First He sought

and coveted the throne of God in heaven..and when denied that

took dominion of the earth [God's footstool]through deceit

 from Adam's family[mankind]But the heir was the LAMB the

promised seed[coming from the family of mankind]And the

Kingship was given unto Him..and He also said..have no fear

little flock for the Father has been pleased to give you the

KINGDOM.

 What it all boils down to, is satan[adversary] defrauding

and coveting rulership and position and sonship that has been

given to the Family of Man.That is to be the image of God.

  When God said He would not give HIS GLORY to another..

 He was in fact speaking of the DOMINION/Rulership/Kingdom

 to the adversary and his image

  He gave His glory to His son that was begotten from above

  Adam's family is to have dominion over satan,not be

dominated by the adversary or be a slave of sin.It is only

through the spirit that this can be accomplished in man.

 And it is this spiritual sonship that is restored to the family of

man..it is his inheritance and free gift from the Father...

and we receive a token of that inheritance NOW for warfare

2Cor 10;4 to demolish any pretensions that sets itself up

against the knowledge of God.[such as pretensions to the dominion]
                                   Sheila
 

[pneuma]

You mis read me Bro. I am seeing that you are saying that it is God that is passing the buck, not you. Are you saying that God is saying in Scripture that it is not He that is responsible for the evil that abounds, but it is the Devil and people?

Yes

I know there is no darkness in God and in God there can be no wrongful evil yet I am saying that evil only exists by God allowing it and creating the arena for it to live and survive and this makes God responsible and I think more than responsible for evil.

I know that is what you are saying bro, I just disagree with it.

God created laws, men break those laws and reap what the laws say they will reap.

Example: God created the law of gravity, a man stand on the edge of a cliff and God warns him that if he jumps he will die, why? Because the law of gravity is in place. Is God then responsible for the man's death because the man jumped? Hardly, He is responsible for the law, but not the man jumping.

I thought that very thought. I don't think I would say evil is ultimately good. I would say evil is an avenue from which good will ultimately come. Rape is not good, it is an immoral and violent evil. God watches this evil occur several times a week. God has the power to stop any one occurance. He does not. Could it be He sees evil differently than we do?

Anything is possible bro, but scriptures tell me these things come from the heart of man, not the heart of God. I believe God suffers a long time with man, willing man to repent of their evils. As to God being able to stop these things if He wanted to, we have to remember man made his bed in hell and God is in the process of saving them from the hell they themselves entered into. So God is in effect working to put a stop to these evils. His will is NOT yet being done on earth, the kingdoms of this world are NOT yet the kingdoms of Christ. So if His will is NOT yet being done on earth who's will is? Answer: satan and mans.

Pneuma, could we be 'us' without evil? Is this the left hand of God in some mysterious way?

Yes we could still be us without evil, Adam was still Adam while in the garden and he remained Adam when outside of the garden.
Paul said it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me, YET I LIVE.

[pneuma]

We will not be corruptible in the resurrection.  So being corruptible is not a necessary ingredient.  God chose to do two things which He knew would lead to corruption.  God created man corruptible.  God allowed Satan into the garden.  If I do A & B knowing it will lead to C then C is my plan.

Yes in the resurrection we will not be corruptible, but man was NOT made perfect, man was made FREE. God wanted man to be made just like Him and as God is FREE God had to make man with the same FREEDOM or else man could NEVER be made like Him.

So being corruptible is most definitely an ingredient.

I also disagree with your 2 point scenario brother.

God did one thing and that was to put a choice to man between life and death, man made his choice. Yes God allowed satan in the garden if He did not allow satan in the garden then God would have been guilty of taking away satans FREEDOM which He just won't do.

And if A + B = C and is God's PLAN/WAY then God has more than ONE plan/way. The plan/way is only through ONE bro, that being Christ. There is ONLY a plan A, not a plan A + a plan B that makes a C.

It is this aspect I am trying to get people to look at, Christ ALONE is the plan/way any other plan/way that men see when looking at what happened with Adam is trying to climb up some other WAY.

Adams WAY= disobedience and death, Christ WAY = obedience and life, which of those two is God's PLAN/WAY? 

Then a good tree really can eventually bring forth evil fruit apart from outside influence.

Not according to scripture Bob, we do not know the method satan made himself the adversary, I would think it was through disobedience similar to that of Adam, but scripture does not really say. But they do say a GOOD tree CANNOT bring forth EVIL fruit. I cannot explain it all to you bro, but you can read that scripture for yourself so I don't see how you can argue against it.

But following Christ who is the Way includes facing sin and evil.  If God intended for me to EVER FORGIVE then God intended for someone to sin.

Yes following Christ who is the WAY NOW (it did not have to be this way) includes facing sin and evil, but it is the sin and evil of satan and man NOT sin and evil that God does.

•   Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

•   Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

•   1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:  22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.

And this we could have done WITHOUT sin, Jesus did.

Yes I think those are all similar and Jospeh is a foreshadow of both Christ and us.  One thing in common with Joseph, Job, Paul and Christ is they all endured the sin of others.

Bob that is in effect my point, these guys endured the sin and evil of others, these others are people and satan, God is NOT included in that picture.

I think the view that God was "weaving" that evil into good is a perfectly good way to look at it since God does not do the evil nor does God puppeteer anyone into doing evil.  But I don't think "weaving" tells the whole story.  I think God intended the evil too.

Well I am glad we agree on some parts of this bro, but I disagree that God intended evil to, a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

- If God intended no evil to come Paul's way then why does it say God GAVE it to him?  God can not both give evil persecution and not intend it.

Who says the thorn is evil? Is correcting a child evil?

- If God intended no evil to come Christ's way then why does it say "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" and "It pleased God to bruise Him"?  Why in the world would scripture attribute the bruising of Christ to God if God only weaved that evil into good.

Like I keep saying brother I can't answer all the question, I can only give what I see, much like when God first showed me the restitution of all things I could not answer all the questions thrown at me then either. But these things only came about because of MANS sin and the EVIL of men. Thus God is not the cause of these evils but rather weaved mans evil ways into something He could use in order to save them.

- If God intended Satan not to do evil to Job then why did God say "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"?  Why would God give authority to Satan to DO EVIL if God did not intend for him to do it.  Intend, not condone.

Job is a book of shadow and the true light can only be seen in Christ. If any see something in Job about God other than what Christ revealed I would say they are still seeing in shadow.

But like I keep saying brother there are some things I just cannot answer (at least not yet). Does this mean I am in error, No it just means I have not yet been given sufficient light on the subject. But these convo's are good because they give me things to take to the Lord and say what about this? Or what about that?

But none of those warnings & commandments could actually lead to life due to weakness of the flesh.

While man was walking in the garden man was walking in the spiritual realm, so yes those commandments could actually lead to life, and were actually made for that very purpose.

•   Galatians 3:21 ...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

•   Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

All this is AFTER the fall not before the fall

Did Adam possess the same weakness of the flesh as we do?  If so then that first commandment was incapable of giving life to Adam.

That same commandment is before us this very day bro and we most assuredly can obey it, but not as long as we walk after the flesh, but after the spirit. It all in how we apprehend the law bro.

Don't we judge two year olds for what they do, even though we know they did make themselves thus?

Adam was not a two year old, but rather one who was given a choice, therefore he was asked to put aside childish things. He did not want to.

What if I do exactly the opposite of what God tells me to do, but with godly intent as Moses did here:
 
•   Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.


Moses does the opposite of what God told him to do.
•   Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?  2 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 

And God repented so to speak.
•   Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

I think Moses was acting in corcord with God while Satan was not.

That' s just it brother, did God intend to destroy the people, or was He just letting Moses see where his (Moses) heart was at?
Everything written here is under a vail, so not everything is as it seems.

So with that in mind I ask you guys to explain to me how a good tree that cannot bare evil fruit produced evil fruit and how Love which works no evil works evil?

[pneuma]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.

But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.

No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.

So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.

I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?

I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.

The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?

Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?

Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?

Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.

[Doc]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.

But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.

No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.

So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.

I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?

I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.

The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?

Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?

Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?

Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.

Hmm... I hadn't thought about the potential difference between "foundation of the world" and "the beginning", although I think it says the lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, which would indicate in/ before the beginning to me.

And I don't see it as two separate events; He is alpha and omega. He was only physically slain once, whatever the case. But as He pre-existed His incarnation, so also his "slain-ness" pre-existed His incarnation in some sense.

[claypot]

Pneuma, you are a trooper to deal with so many questions. God has gifted you and your patience is strong.

Now for the attack! Just kidding.

I don't feel I have been given any real choice in what really matters. I did not choose to be born into this cesspool. I did not intentionally choose to sin, it just seemed to come so natural. For me and millions of others we have been born into something that is on going, no fault of our own and actually against the desires of many of us.

Pneuma, you wrote.....

Anything is possible bro, but scriptures tell me these things [evil] come from the heart of man, not the heart of God. I believe God suffers a long time with man, willing man to repent of their evils. As to God being able to stop these things if He wanted to, we have to remember man made his bed in hell and God is in the process of saving them from the hell they themselves entered into.

You say evil comes from my heartand I ofcourse agree on one level, but I did not put the evil there or if I did I did it in total ignorance without wanting to do it. God suffers a long time with me? How about me suffering a long time with evil? Who in their right mind does not want to repent of their evils?

I did not make my bed in hell, at least not willingly. I was born in a cesspool, I grew up in a cesspool and I currently live in a cesspool but I did not 'make my bed in hell'. This implies I had a choice in the matter. If I had a choice I would make my bed in Heaven. God is in the process of saving me from conditions I had and have no control over. With all due respect to God and to you Brother, God has an obligation to save me/us.

I have entered hell as you say but not in the spirit of how you say it. I have entered hell but I did not do it willingly.

Just airing, am I way off base here?

cp

[pneuma]

Pneuma, you are a trooper to deal with so many questions. God has gifted you and your patience is strong.

Now for the attack! Just kidding.

I don't feel I have been given any real choice in what really matters. I did not choose to be born into this cesspool. I did not intentionally choose to sin, it just seemed to come so natural. For me and millions of others we have been born into something that is on going, no fault of our own and actually against the desires of many of us.

Pneuma, you wrote.....



You say evil comes from my heartand I ofcourse agree on one level, but I did not put the evil there or if I did I did it in total ignorance without wanting to do it. God suffers a long time with me? How about me suffering a long time with evil? Who in their right mind does not want to repent of their evils?

No you did not put the evil there brother, the devil sowed the tares  in you NOT God. But what I see is people blaming God for the works of the devil.

I did not make my bed in hell, at least not willingly

.

Every time we are disobedient to God we make our bed in hell brother.

I was born in a cesspool, I grew up in a cesspool and I currently live in a cesspool but I did not 'make my bed in hell'. This implies I had a choice in the matter. If I had a choice I would make my bed in Heaven.

Are you so sure about that bro? This is why a study into whether we are the angels that kept not their first estate might come in handy.

For if we are, then we most assuredly did make our bed in hell by our own choice.

God is in the process of saving me from conditions I had and have no control over. With all due respect to God and to you Brother, God has an obligation to save me/us.

I don't believe God has an obligation to save any of us, an obligation on Gods part towards us would take away His grace  which is unmerited favour and His love for us which we do not deserve.

I have entered hell as you say but not in the spirit of how you say it. I have entered hell but I did not do it willingly.

And again I would say are you so sure about that?

Just airing, am I way off base here?

Not according to most bro, it would appear I am the one off base, but I cannot help but see what I see, if it is of God it will grow and produce fruit if not......

[pneuma]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.

But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.

No, I don't really think it would lead to Him being crucified twice. He is identified in the scripture as the lamb slain from (before) the foundation of the world.

So in this sense, he was crucified "then" as well, but not "twice", as you put it.

I still see that as being twice bro, because your still saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and then again 2000 years ago. So if He was slain from the foundation of the world why the need to be slain 2000 years ago?

I see this in a twofold perspective, the first one is in shadow, that being Christ was the lamb Abel slew from the foundation of the world, in other words the lamb of Abel is a shadow of what was to take place 2000 years ago.

The other way I see it is what foundation of the world is that scripture speaking about?

Is it saying Christ was slain from the foundation of the OLD world or the NEW world?

Is He not our FOUNDATION and is not that FOUNDATION the lamb slain and is it not upon that which we are to build?

Therefore from the FOUNDATION of the world is speaking of 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was slain and set up the FOUNDATION of the NEW world.

Hmm... I hadn't thought about the potential difference between "foundation of the world" and "the beginning", although I think it says the lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world, which would indicate in/ before the beginning to me.

And I don't see it as two separate events; He is alpha and omega. He was only physically slain once, whatever the case. But as He pre-existed His incarnation, so also his "slain-ness" pre-existed His incarnation in some sense.

Doc where do you get the word from means before?

[Doc]

Doc where do you get the word from means before?

It doesn't. It's just me misremembering. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I don't know why I couldn't think of the correct word.

Still, from the "foundation of the world" sounds like "in the beginning" to me, not the inception of the kingdom.

I just looked it up in Strong's, and the word "world" there is indeed "kosmos", so it can't be that it was from the foundation he laid during his physical life here.

[sheila]

  Talk about know the tree by it's

fruit. Jesus came to save the world..to blot out our sins and

transgressions. I see this thinking not in line with His..of not

counting our sins against us..in Grace and mercy.And freely

giving mankind to eat of the tree of life and to take Life's

waters free.  Jesus bought back that right through His blood


 Now,Pneuma, you have not only placed those sins squarely on

our backs again..but are ADDING UNTO THEM TRANSGRESSIONS

OF THE FALLEN ANGELS BEFORE WE WERE EVEN SOWN INTO

THIS CORRUPTION.

  Sorry,bad fruit brother..if it is putting more sin on us..it is bad

  THIS HAS THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN WRITTEN ALL OVER IT


 Blame God, Blame man..but HEAVEN FORBID THAT THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL BE BLAMED ON THE DEVIL!!

Or satans works be the actual works of satan.....youv'e got two trees to judge....the anti-christ and christ to discern, works of satan/devil versus works of God/Christ.


Here's a big clue..one's works bring death,

 one's works give life

 One brings accusation/condemnation

One brings JUDGEMENT/MERCY

  ONE's 'works' bring knowledge of sin.

One's 'works' bring Knowledge of GOD


  You will know the tree by it's fruit



 

[sheila]

we really shouldn't be surprized that when a wheat/grain of truth

is realized, such as all mankind was first in heaven..that a tare

of accusation and corruption would be presented along with

that truth. The tare is mankind is the fallen angels..even the

  seed of the evil ones/offspring of vipers.

   The wheat is mankind is the good seed God sowed in the earth.

   Granted some men may have dwelling in their flesh a spirit of

a fallen angel. But the man's spirit is not the fallen angels spirit.

  In fact, this is where the erronous doctrine of re-incarnation

originated from..these same spirits of the fallen angels use

other men's bodies when the one they are in dies. They then

put some their memories into the mind of the man they dwell in.


   Because of this fact, many men beleive in re-incarnation

  thinking we must die and come back and die numerous times

  having a memory of another life lived before

[claypot]

I hear ya Pneuma and all.

It's good to air all our thoughts. What may make total sense to one may be nonsense to another and vise versa. I have learned much from 'stray' thoughts of others and I'm thankful.

cp

[Molly]

The Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world because the slain Lamb IS the foundation of the world.


"foundation"
G2602
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.


Katabole comes from kataballo which means 'to cast down', 'to throw down'.


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

--Gen 3



19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

--Gen 3



20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

--Rom 8




24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

--Gen 3

[peacemaker]

Pneuma, your posts are akin to a gentle wind; having the Spirit of God's Word within them!

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Molly, pull up the meaning for "helpmeet"......

[Molly]

I will make


"him a help"

H5828
עזר
‛êzer
ay'-zer
From H5826; aid: - help.

H5826
עזר
‛âzar
aw-zar'
A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.



"meet for him"

H5048
נגד
neged
neh'-ghed
From H5046; a front, that is, part opposite; specifically a counterpart, or mate; usually (adverbially, especially with preposition) over against or before: - about, (over) against, X aloof, X far (off), X from, over, presence, X other side, sight, X to view.


H5046
נגד
nâgad
naw-gad'
A primitive root; properly to front, that is, stand boldly out opposite; by implication (causatively), to manifest; figuratively to announce (always by word of mouth to one present); specifically to expose, predict, explain, praise: - bewray, X certainly, certify, declare (-ing), denounce, expound, X fully, messenger, plainly, profess, rehearse, report, shew (forth), speak, X surely, tell, utter.



Cardinal that word nagad--'meet for him'--is a verb?  Meaning to front, to stand boldly out opposite. 

He is surrounded by his opposite?


I will make him a help [that is] meet for him---?

His helper is his opposite.

[jabcat]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc.  Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He is "Lord of heaven and earth"  :thumbsup:.

Amen brother jabcat!!!  I knew we were kin. :laughing7:

CHB

We are, never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion  :laughing7:.

[peacemaker]

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.  And God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness."

Whether it grinds you down (darkness/earth) or polishes you up (light/heaven), depends upon what you're made of, and these two are closely linked.

Christ is the touchstone to our natures; Checkmate!

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Molly, either I remembered wrong, or gave you the wrong word, or they didn't put all the meanings in there as is in the Strong's book.  :sigh:

[Molly]

Hi Cardinal,

I never read that sentence correctly before.  I always thought of help meet like help mate.  It doesn't seem to be exactly saying that because of the meaning of that word, meet.  The word means to stand in opposition to, to come against, to oppose, be the opposite, and in a prominent way.  It's used when one army comes against another, for instance.  The translators of all the Bibles I have looked at seem to gloss over the real meaning of it.

So I'm wondering--what is this all about?  It's easy to say of Eve--well, she was a lot of help lol.  This is a fine mess you've gotten us into, Eve.  How, exactly, is she a help to him?

One way--she carries the seed--a mystery hidden from ages and generations--

Hidden, alright--who would have guessed that such glory could be found buried in mud?

[reFORMer]

Strong's G 2602
katabole (Greek)
DOWN-CASTing  "disruption" (CLV)
"foundation, conceive" (KJV)

1.) a throwing or laying down
     a.) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
     b.) of the seed of plants and animals
2.) a founding (laying down a foundation)

Since it belongs to the male (Gk: kataballein to sperma) to "down cast" the seed it is a misinterpretation to speak of her "conceiving."  She, being past the age to ovulate, it is referring here to "the discharge of seed from the ovaries." (Knoch)  Nevertheless, the word is translated "conceive" in Hebrews 11:11...
"Through faith also Sara herself received strength to 'conceive' seed..." (KJV)
"By faith Sarah herself also obtained power for the 'disruption' of seed, and brought forth beyond the period of her prime, since she deems the Promiser faithful..." (CLV)

The following is definitely "'before' the disruption of the world"
Ephesians 1:2-5 (CLV)...
"...Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him 'before' the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus..."

What I understand is the world (Gk: cosmos) was realized in God before it was manifested.  God conceived of the cosmos then it was lowered into manifestation, the 'idea l' of it being of a higher form than the 'rea l'(ization) of it.  From the inner ideal was the cosmos 'down-cast'.  Knoch may be right in understanding it to prefigure the result of sin.  The original creation was "disrupted" by sin.

The word "from" in "'from' the disruption of the world" is here in the primary reference of our consideration from Revelation 13:8...
"...the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (KJV)
"...the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world." (CLV)

Strong's G 575
apo (Greek)
FROM "...indicates source and seperation." (CLV) Knoch
KJV translation count 671 total
from 393, of 129, out of 48, for 10, off 10, by 9, at 9, in 6, since + 3739 5, on 5, not tr. 16, misc. 31
1.) of separation
     a.) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,
     b.) of separation of a part from the whole
          1.) where of a whole some part is taken
     c.) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
     d.) of a state of separation, that is of distance
          1.) physical, of distance of place
          2.) temporal, of distance of time
2.) of origin
     a.) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
     b.) of origin of a cause

separated from its origination in the down-casting (of the cosmos)

[reFORMer]

We are [kin,] never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion  :laughing7:.

(I don't know if kinship is determined by diminishing words; but, a word that somebody forgot I seem to say in pages of text.  I dishearten myself.  I'm trying to change without being truly warped...oh well, I guess it's too late for that.  Is there a woof for that kind of warp or am I just in another time?)

[jabcat]

We are [kin,] never doubt it...it's funny, Doc must be our brother, because time and again he's taken what I've tried to say in 10 sentences and said it in 3...it is interesting how certain ways of thinking and seeing things can run together in bunches...hey, let's start a denomination...or something...at least, have a family reunion  :laughing7:.

(I don't know if kinship is determined by diminishing words; but, a word that somebody forgot I seem to say in pages of text.  I dishearten myself.  I'm trying to change without being truly warped...oh well, I guess it's too late for that.  Is there a woof for that kind of warp or am I just in another time?)

Reminds me of this James, especially the last 2 lines...remember this?  We probably are of/in another time...as Larry Norman said,

Alice is a drag queen, Bowie's somewhere in between
Other bands are looking mean, me, I'm trying to stay clean.
I don't dig the radio, I hate what the charts pick
Rock and roll may not be dead, but it's getting sick.
All over the world disc jockeys sound the same
And every town I play is like the one from where I came.

Rolling Stones are millionaires, flower children pallbearers,
Beatles said All you need is love, and then they broke up.
Jimi took an overdose, Janis followed so close,
The whole music scene and all the bands are pretty comatose.
This time last year, people didn't wanna hear.
They looked at Jesus from afar, this year he's a superstar.

Dear John, who's more popular now?
I've been listening to some of Paul's new records.
Sometimes I think he really is dead.

It's 1973, I wonder who we're gonna see
Who's in power now? Think I'll turn on my TV,
The man on the news said China's gonna beat us,
We shot all our dreamers, there's no one left to lead us.
We need a solution, we need salvation,
Let's send some people to the moon and gather information.

They brought back a big bag of rocks.
Only cost thirteen billion. Must be nice rocks.

You think it's such a sad thing when you see a fallen king
Then you find out they're only princes to begin with
And everybody has to choose whether they will win or lose
Follow God or sing the blues, and who they're gonna sin with.
What a mess the world is in, I wonder who began it.
Don't ask me, I'm only visiting this planet

This world is not my home...I'm just pa-a-a-asin' through

OK, don't mean to hijack the thread...carry on!