The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Doc]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

[pneuma]

I, of course, agree that God can't and doesn't do anything bad or wrong. Could it be that evil is not what we think it is? Joseph having all the evil done to him by his brothers and then we are told they meant it for evil, which I take to mean moral badness or selfish gain badness, yet God meant it (the evil?) for good. God's purpose with evil in this case was to do good.

Hi Clay, God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him, New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words has this meaning for MEANT.

, khaw-shab'; a prim. root; prop. to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (lit.) to weave

So read those scriptures again with the literal translation of meant in place and we have

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God weaved it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Septuagint has it

Ye took counsel against me for evil, but God took counsel for me for good, that the matter might be as it is to-day, and much people might be fed

Thus showing that it does not matter what evil men do, God can take that evil and make good come out of it.

He is the only one who can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Evil is part of existence. God is responsible for all in existence.

God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.

I'm not saying God does evil at least how we think of evil. Could it be that evil is amoral? Isn't evil referred to as a smashing or breaking? There is nothing wrong with breaking something unless it is done maliciously.

I think I'll stop and see what you and others think

As I already stated bro evil comes about when God turns His back and gives men up to their OWN desires, NOT HIS desires.

Did someone say here that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life are the same tree? Pneuma?

That is close to what I have said before brother, if I remember correctly I have stated that the TOKOGE and the tree of life have the same roots as both were in the midst of the garden.

Anyway, could it be what I am trying to get into focus here........that OK there is a tree......good and evil/life. Now if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good or evil in our lives but we do them in selfish ways then we die yet if we eat of the tree of good and evil or do good and evil in selfless God fearing ways then we live.

God said don't eat of the tree of good and evil lest you die. Could he have been saying that to eat of it in a wrong manner is death yet to eat of it properly is life?
Then God blocks the way to the tree of life when it is used wrongly because once we do wrong a seed is planted that will corrupt any good we try to do. God protected the tree of life with flaming swords...........It is kept pure, Christlike, it is a Tree we need within yet it is a Tree that will not be corrupted, God will see to that! It can now only be accessed by Divine appointment as it were.

Here's the thing about the TOKOGE bro, it is a GOOD tree, there is NOTHING EVIL in the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

The Evil came in upon the breaking of the commandment "thou shalt not", evil did not come in because of what was in the tree itself. People tend to think there was something evil in the fruit of the tree, but this is not the case because strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Thou shalt not is not only a commandment telling us NOT to do something, it is also a promise that if in Christ we will NOT do such and such.

There are TWO ways of gaining the knowledge of good and evil, one through disobedience and one through obedience. Adam gained this knowledge through disobedience, Jesus gained this knowledge through obedience. Thus there is NOTHING wrong or evil with the fruit of this tree, which fruit is the knowledge of good and evil. So yes we are to eat of the tree but the manner of eating of it brings about the consequences, after the manner of Adam, death, after the manner of Jesus, life.  But the manner of eating is OUR life and death choice that God gives every man.

[pneuma]

Ok, then good trees become bad trees.  Then wouldn't you have to say that the good trees God created were corruptible?  So it was VERY GOOD that God deliberately created corruptible trees?

Hi Bob, Every FREE being (except God) can be corrupted, but that does not mean God wanted or planned for corrupted beings.

Adam's WAY (disobedience and death) are not a part of Gods WAYS, my ways are NOT your ways, Gods WAYS have always been through Jesus Christ who is the WAY. We have to take our eye off of Adams WAY and put them squarely on Jesus Christ to understand Gods WAYS. And it was because God created everything free that God said it was very good. 

I can't recall if you told me this before.   Do you believe God created Satan?

NO, satan created himself. By that I mean by his disobedience or some other sin he made himself what he is, the adversary.

To this again I would again point out that many of God's very good plans throughout scripture include evil happening, so I see no reason to conclude that an original plan of this variety can not be very good.

And I would say as long as people view it that way they are looking at Gods WAYS through Adam and not through Christ, because a PLAN is a WAY and Christ alone is the WAY.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger sent with evil intent by Satan, all sent with good intent by God.
Christ's crucifixion was an evil plan of men, all planned by God for good.
These are good plans by God containing within them bad plans of others.

Like I said Bob I cannot explain it all, but could these things not be like what happened with Joseph? Could they not be God weaving (read my post to Clay) the evil of men unto good? After all the story of Joseph is really the story of Christ in shadow is it not?

[pneuma]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

[claypot]

OK Pneuma, now I'm gonna lay it on ya! Just kidding Bro, you are teaching me a lot but in my ignorance (not being falsly humble here, just a fact!) but in my ignorance my mind keeps coming up with a couple things from what I hear you saying.

You say and I totally agree that God does no wrong ever.

You say....

God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.  

and

God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him

Two things always pop up in my head when I hear you talk like this.

1. I was raised to take responsibility for all I did and even all I started. In other words if I subtly started a fight between 2 of my siblings and I kind of backed out I would still be punished if I was found out. Even though I did not get into the actual fight, I was responsible, it was my doing.

2. When you say that it was Josephs brothers and it was the person or Satan who did the evil and God had nothing to do with it I hear in the back of my mind the conversation God had with Adam and Eve. When he asked Adam if he ate of the tree Adam said Eve really was the guilty one and when God asked Eve about it, she blamed the serpent. Even though in a sense they were correct, in another sense they were not. They should have taken full responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Are you saying that God is telling us that it is, in the ultimate sense, someone else's fault for the evil and even the doing of the evil?

Now I am just saying that the buck stops with God. If there is evil anywhere in His creation He is responsible and I think, more than responsible. Same with any good, God gets all the credit.

Now if what I think is true then I got to believe we are seeing evil in a wrong light. Evil is not a bad thing ultimately, it is an avenue to good. God brings good out of evil.

Don't want to say more right now as I may have set myself up for a fall but I do want and need your thoughts on this.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts pneuma..... :thumbsup: you have a knack for explaining things in simplicity (I'm still learning to do that :mblush:).  

God gave me something pertaining to that Hebrew word that means to weave. Something woven is in it's essence, lots of little CROSSES where the threads intersect. The Word that is alive is as threads that the Master weaver weaves into the very fabric of our being as we overcome whatever is adversarial against those scriptures, the goal being that our renewed soul is so intertwined with His Spirit that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

It becomes our garment of righteousness, the very covering of Christ Himself. When completed and joined with another, it becomes the robe of Mechisedek, no beginning and no end because all has been swallowed up and changed in Him.

They rent their garments when someone died; Satan comes to do the very same thing, ie. rend our covering if he can by getting us to be disobedient and listen to him instead, thus tearing an opening in what God has woven which is incorruptible and timeless, into something that is corruptible and subject to time and therefore subject to death.

This is why the veil was rent because what it represented, was our covering, Christ's veil which was rent which necessitated another covering, this time of Spirit only, we were to be covered (baptized) in the Holy Ghost. This is the same pattern in the garden, only in reverse. One covering was rent, and another covering was supplied of animal skins, ie. the carnal beastly nature's covering.

There's more that ties in with this also; Elijah sat by the river Chebar, which comes from that same root word, if I recall. God was busy weaving His nature into Elijah there. And also Samson's covering was symbolized by his braided or woven hair (glory), which speaks of Christ's garment also. He fell thru the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, just like they did in the garden. Blessings....

PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.

[sheila]

  Satan was a liar before the garden.

  Secrets of Enoch 31;4  the devil is the evil spirit of

  the lower places.As a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens,as his name was Satanail,thus he became DIFFERENT
from the angels,but his nature did not change his intelligence
as far as his understanding righteous and sinful things.

And he understood his condemnation and the sin he had sinned before, THEREFORE HE CONCEIVED THOUGHT AGAINST ADAM
IN SUCH FORM HE ENTICED AND SEDUCED EVE, BUT DID NOT TOUCH ADAM

                              Sheila

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What is Sotona?

[sheila]

Hi Card,

  It's another name for 'make his-self an adversary"

[peacemaker]

:cloud9: What is Sotona?

Beelzebub (Ba'al) prince of demons; Lord of the Flies or dung, and the god of the Philistines.

It is who the Pharisees accused Jesus of being, because he cast out demons?

peacemaker

[jabcat]

PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.

I like your point Card.  I believe God is often more proactive than just turning His back.  Who sent the flood?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I guess I can see pneuma's point also this way, and maybe that's not even the way he means it, but here goes. God turning His back, to me, does not indicate no activity on His part, but rather that He has given us over for a season to principle things that He already had set in motion, ie. like what you sow, you reap. In the judgment of this reaping, which is unto victory, it causes the person to come to repentance (hopefully) and to seek HIS FACE again.

So in one sense He had nothing to do with it because it was our own choice that initiated what comes next, yet He lowered us to experience the bondage of corruption that we might learn obedience thru the things that we suffer. My  :2c: Blessings....

[jabcat]

I personally think it can be both, not necessarily just one or the other...IMO, He allows us to reap what we sow, He rains on the just and the unjust, and again, where did the flood come from?  I really don't believe God just turned His back so it rained  :mpardon:.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think He prophesied it thru the naming of Methuselah. And then when they didn't repent after Noah's 120 years of preaching, they reaped what they sowed. My  :2c: Blessings...

[jabcat]

Yes, I agree, they reaped what they sowed...but did they make it rain  :bigGrin: ?  Guess I'm simple, but I believe God "turned on the faucet"  :happy3:.  Well sis, we can ask Him when we get there.

[jabcat]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

That's what I see too Doc, but I've been wondering about those verses that many use to argue his having been an angel (I've even heard 'Praise Leader' in heaven :mshock:) and then rebelled and fell, etc.  Whatever happened, I personally believe God planned it, provided for it, and was not surprised by any of it...IMO, God has never lost control of His creation...He is "Lord of heaven and earth"  :thumbsup:.

[Doc]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

[pneuma]

OK Pneuma, now I'm gonna lay it on ya! Just kidding Bro, you are teaching me a lot but in my ignorance (not being falsly humble here, just a fact!) but in my ignorance my mind keeps coming up with a couple things from what I hear you saying.

You say and I totally agree that God does no wrong ever.

You say....

God may indeed take responsibility for all things in existence but He is not responsible for all things in existence, for He is NOT the creator of TARES. He said He planted GOOD seed in the earth and the devil planted the TARES/EVIL seed.   

and

God had no part in the evil that Josephs brothers did unto him

Two things always pop up in my head when I hear you talk like this.

1. I was raised to take responsibility for all I did and even all I started. In other words if I subtly started a fight between 2 of my siblings and I kind of backed out I would still be punished if I was found out. Even though I did not get into the actual fight, I was responsible, it was my doing.

2. When you say that it was Josephs brothers and it was the person or Satan who did the evil and God had nothing to do with it I hear in the back of my mind the conversation God had with Adam and Eve. When he asked Adam if he ate of the tree Adam said Eve really was the guilty one and when God asked Eve about it, she blamed the serpent. Even though in a sense they were correct, in another sense they were not. They should have taken full responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Are you saying that God is telling us that it is, in the ultimate sense, someone else's fault for the evil and even the doing of the evil?

Clay how do you get I am saying someone else is responsible?

I have been and do maintain it is OUR responsibility for sin and death.

I don't lay the blame for my sins on Adam, Eve or the devil and I surely don't lay the blame on God.

If sin and death were Gods PLAN/WAY then God would have been unrighteous in putting man from the garden.

Adam tried to blame God for his disobedience when he said the woman you gave me, gave me the fruit and I did eat, but God would none of that, He judged Adam for what Adam did, He judged Eve for what Eve did and He judged the serpent for what the serpent did.

Now I am just saying that the buck stops with God. If there is evil anywhere in His creation He is responsible and I think, more than responsible. Same with any good, God gets all the credit.

Clay I realise you and others believe after this fashion, but God said everything He created was GOOD, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat. Do you really believe God gets the credit for what the devil has done? Would that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil? Yet do not the scriptures say there is NO concord between them?

Now if what I think is true then I got to believe we are seeing evil in a wrong light. Evil is not a bad thing ultimately, it is an avenue to good. God brings good out of evil.

Bro if evil is ultimately good then can we not in all truth state that evil is good and good evil? Yet are we not warned NOT to do that?

I agree good causes good to come out of the evil that we have brought upon OURSELVES,but that far different then saying God does evil to me so that He can do good to me. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

Brother Jesus came to do the WORKS of the Father and one of those works was to raise the dead, so if God is the God of the dead then are not Jesus' works contrary to the Fathers?

[pneuma]

:cloud9: Good posts pneuma..... :thumbsup: you have a knack for explaining things in simplicity (I'm still learning to do that :mblush:).  

God gave me something pertaining to that Hebrew word that means to weave. Something woven is in it's essence, lots of little CROSSES where the threads intersect. The Word that is alive is as threads that the Master weaver weaves into the very fabric of our being as we overcome whatever is adversarial against those scriptures, the goal being that our renewed soul is so intertwined with His Spirit that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

It becomes our garment of righteousness, the very covering of Christ Himself. When completed and joined with another, it becomes the robe of Mechisedek, no beginning and no end because all has been swallowed up and changed in Him.

They rent their garments when someone died; Satan comes to do the very same thing, ie. rend our covering if he can by getting us to be disobedient and listen to him instead, thus tearing an opening in what God has woven which is incorruptible and timeless, into something that is corruptible and subject to time and therefore subject to death.

This is why the veil was rent because what it represented, was our covering, Christ's veil which was rent which necessitated another covering, this time of Spirit only, we were to be covered (baptized) in the Holy Ghost. This is the same pattern in the garden, only in reverse. One covering was rent, and another covering was supplied of animal skins, ie. the carnal beastly nature's covering.

There's more that ties in with this also; Elijah sat by the river Chebar, which comes from that same root word, if I recall. God was busy weaving His nature into Elijah there. And also Samson's covering was symbolized by his braided or woven hair (glory), which speaks of Christ's garment also. He fell thru the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, just like they did in the garden. Blessings....

PS. God lowered us into the bondage of corruption, though, also.

Sis good stuff on the weaving, and yes God lower us into bondage of corruption, and that corruption was of our own making, God never planned it that way, tis the potter responding to the clay. He warns and warns and warns again of the consequences that will take place if man does such and such and when man disregards His warnings that which He warned man about will surely come to pass, thus God giving man up to the desires of his own heart.

[pneuma]

  Satan was a liar before the garden.

  Secrets of Enoch 31;4  the devil is the evil spirit of

  the lower places.As a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens,as his name was Satanail,thus he became DIFFERENT
from the angels,but his nature did not change his intelligence
as far as his understanding righteous and sinful things.

And he understood his condemnation and the sin he had sinned before, THEREFORE HE CONCEIVED THOUGHT AGAINST ADAM
IN SUCH FORM HE ENTICED AND SEDUCED EVE, BUT DID NOT TOUCH ADAM

                              Sheila

Sheila I see it more along those lines also, it would explain why sin was in the world before the commandment came but was not imputed unto men.

[pneuma]

Yes, I agree, they reaped what they sowed...but did they make it rain  :bigGrin: ?  Guess I'm simple, but I believe God "turned on the faucet"  :happy3:.  Well sis, we can ask Him when we get there.

I would say yes they made it rain for if they had of repented of THEIR evil the rain never would have come. God gave warning, they would not listen, God gave them what they desired.

[pneuma]

I wonder what we do with the text that says that satan is a liar from the beginning. This would seem to me to imply that the adversary was created that way; to be an adversary.

Hi Doc, yes scriptures state satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, but they do not say he was created a liar and murderer.

So the real question would be is, when in the beginning (which could have spanned many aions) did satan become a liar and murderer?

Was it before the creation of the garden, or was it in the garden when he lied and murdered eve? As I said to Bob satan made himself the adversary by his disobedience or some other sin.

Well, it's possible you're right about this.

But doesn't "from the beginning" imply that he was always that way (hence, created that way)?

If someone said that I was a liar from the beginning, wouldn't they mean I was always that way?

I guess the question is; what beginning, his or creation's?

If we used that anology Doc then would it not lead to Christ being crusified twice? Once from the foundation of the earth and once 2000 years ago.

But yes the question could be asked after the manner you say. To me tis the same question just reworded.

[claypot]

Pneuma, you wrote.....

Clay how do you get I am saying someone else is responsible?

I have been and do maintain it is OUR responsibility for sin and death.

I don't lay the blame for my sins on Adam, Eve or the devil and I surely don't lay the blame on God.

You mis read me Bro. I am seeing that you are saying that it is God that is passing the buck, not you. Are you saying that God is saying in Scripture that it is not He that is responsible for the evil that abounds, but it is the Devil and people?

Pneuma wrote.....

Clay I realise you and others believe after this fashion, but God said everything He created was GOOD, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat. Do you really believe God gets the credit for what the devil has done? Would that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil?

I know there is no darkness in God and in God there can be no wrongful evil yet I am saying that evil only exists by God allowing it and creating the arena for it to live and survive and this makes God responsible and I think more than responsible for evil.

Pneuma........

Bro if evil is ultimately good then can we not in all truth state that evil is good and good evil? Yet are we not warned NOT to do that?

I thought that very thought. I don't think I would say evil is ultimately good. I would say evil is an avenue from which good will ultimately come. Rape is not good, it is an immoral and violent evil. God watches this evil occur several times a week. God has the power to stop any one occurance. He does not. Could it be He sees evil differently than we do?

Pneuma, could we be 'us' without evil? Is this the left hand of God in some mysterious way?

cp

[bobf]

Hi Bob, Every FREE being (except God) can be corrupted, but that does not mean God wanted or planned for corrupted beings.

We will not be corruptible in the resurrection.  So being corruptible is not a necessary ingredient.  God chose to do two things which He knew would lead to corruption.  God created man corruptible.  God allowed Satan into the garden.  If I do A & B knowing it will lead to C then C is my plan.

NO, satan created himself. By that I mean by his disobedience or some other sin he made himself what he is, the adversary.

Then a good tree really can eventually bring forth evil fruit apart from outside influence.

Adam's WAY (disobedience and death) are not a part of Gods WAYS, my ways are NOT your ways, Gods WAYS have always been through Jesus Christ who is the WAY. We have to take our eye off of Adams WAY and put them squarely on Jesus Christ to understand Gods WAYS. And it was because God created everything free that God said it was very good. 

And I would say as long as people view it that way they are looking at Gods WAYS through Adam and not through Christ, because a PLAN is a WAY and Christ alone is the WAY.

But following Christ who is the Way includes facing sin and evil.  If God intended for me to EVER FORGIVE then God intended for someone to sin.

• Mark 8:34 Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me

<br>

• Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

<br>

• 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:  22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.

Like I said Bob I cannot explain it all, but could these things not be like what happened with Joseph? Could they not be God weaving (read my post to Clay) the evil of men unto good? After all the story of Joseph is really the story of Christ in shadow is it not?

Yes I think those are all similar and Jospeh is a foreshadow of both Christ and us.  One thing in common with Joseph, Job, Paul and Christ is they all endured the sin of others.  I think the view that God was "weaving" that evil into good is a perfectly good way to look at it since God does not do the evil nor does God puppeteer anyone into doing evil.  But I don't think "weaving" tells the whole story.  I think God intended the evil too.

- If God intended no evil to come Paul's way then why does it say God GAVE it to him?  God can not both give evil persecution and not intend it.

- If God intended no evil to come Christ's way then why does it say "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done" and "It pleased God to bruise Him"?  Why in the world would scripture attribute the bruising of Christ to God if God only weaved that evil into good.

- If God intended Satan not to do evil to Job then why did God say "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"?  Why would God give authority to Satan to DO EVIL if God did not intend for him to do it.  Intend, not condone.



From some other posts...

God never planned it that way, tis the potter responding to the clay. He warns and warns and warns again of the consequences that will take place if man does such and such and when man disregards His warnings that which He warned man about will surely come to pass, thus God giving man up to the desires of his own heart

But none of those warnings & commandments could actually lead to life due to weakness of the flesh.

• Galatians 3:21 ...for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

<br>

• Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Did Adam possess the same weakness of the flesh as we do?  If so then that first commandment was incapable of giving life to Adam.

He judged Adam for what Adam did, He judged Eve for what Eve did and He judged the serpent for what the serpent did.

Don't we judge two year olds for what they do, even though we know they did make themselves thus?

Would that not be akin to saying the Father and the devil are one? For if the devil is doing what God had planned for him to do is that not the same as saying that God has concord with the devil?

Not at all.  In the book of Job, Satan was doing exactly what God planned for him to do, seeing as God told Satan exactly what he could and could not do.  Yet God and Satan were not acting in concord.  Their motives were miles apart.  They were in complete opposition in what they were tyring to accomplish.

If I do exactly what God tells me to do with the opposite intent that God has, am I really acting in concert with God?

What if I do exactly the opposite of what God tells me to do, but with godly intent as Moses did here:
 

• Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Moses does the opposite of what God told him to do.

• Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?  2 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 

And God repented so to speak.

• Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

I think Moses was acting in corcord with God while Satan was not.

[sheila]

  Very Good Points,Bobf

   Evidently Our Father found it necessary to include

   the necessity of suffering  evil in the education of His children.

   How else can the victory of Good/love overcoming evil be

   manifest?  It is evident to me, that He built it in the design

  of His creation for HIS OWN PURPOSE. It is also evident

  to me, that when He accomplishes His PURPOSE it will

  no longer be necessary..and be completely done away with.


   Rev 21;4  He will wipe every tear from their eyes.There will

be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,for the old

order of things has passed away. The 'OLD ORDER OF THINGS"

signify to me a plan/design that contained such in it's

implementation.  Now, He as the creator..has designed HIS

CREATION BOTH OLD AND NEW and it is we..the creature of

this creation that expierence such..both the old and the new.


   What power do we possess to make ourselves? He has told us

  that it is HIM himself that forms us. Jesus even spoke the word

  that we can do nothing of ourselves..but must remain in Him..

  that it is the power of the Spirit of GOD at work and not

  we of ourselves that can do a thing. Also, He testified it

  was the will of the Father that He come to give life and for the

purpose of the salvation of mankind and the promise of the

coming NEW CREATION AND ORDER WHERE MANKIND WILL

BE A NEW CREATURE AND BE INCORRUPTIBLE AND THERE WILL

BE NO EVIL/ADVERSARY

  A complete setting free from the bondage of corruption[sins

law] and a glorious freedom known to the sons of God.

  OUR VERY LIFE DEPENDS ON EVERY WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH

  He but speaks and it comes to be. The adversary/slanderer

speaks the lie and it's origen is with him. He twists the word of

God and death comes to us when we beleive the lie.


   When all is said and done....the WORD of OUR FATHER WILL

HAVE A PRECIOUSNESS AND REVERENCE TO US THAT WAS

NOT THERE IN THE BEGINNING.THERE IS A WHOLE NEW

RESPECT AND REGARD THAT IS BEING DEVELOPED IN MANKIND

THROUGH THIS WHOLE GOOD/EVIL CONTRAST FOR THE TRUTH

AND SUMPREMCY OF THE WORD OF GOD SPOKEN TO US


   His WORD is of more value than Gold, a treasure to be kept

  in our very heart and to be guarded jealously. Our very life

  and peace depend upon them. These words prosper and

  BLESS US..His promises are ASSURANCE TO US OF HIS

  LOVE AND BENEVOLENCE TOWARDS US.

  NOW, there are many anti-christ spirits to speak lies to us

  Now there are many evil spirits to twist the WORD of God to

  deceive us. BUT..there is a time quickly approaching...

  when He will do away with such with the BREATH OF HIS

  .MOUTH.  Just as the showdown in Elijah's day occurred due to

  such confusion of who was the real .God. But even this was

shown that satan himself would cause fire to come down from

heaven..to even provide a lying sign to deceive.


   Lies abound..truth is at a premium...and rare upon the earth.

  the precious golden oil of the Holy spirit is what lights the

darkness that surrounds us. A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.


   Mankind can not be in the image of God and have the mind of

Christ when he beleives a lie and prefers it to the truth. When

he dwells in a state of utter confusion of what is truth and

what is lie..when he beleives a lie and steps out in disobediance

to the spoken word of God..it is not the image of the

incorruptible that he is manifesting..but the works of the

adversary is what man is manifesting.


  Love and trust in God and in His word will be

established.Forever...never to come into question again

  TRUTH WILL REIGN EXCEEDINGLY AND GLORIOUSLY

  IN LOVE AND PEACE