Reality check

[Paul Hazelwood]

What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?

It's called boiling the frog.  If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out.  But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.

Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'?  I got news for you lol.  This is Hitler's wet dream.  A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder.  Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.

Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born?  Thats where your swallowing the load.  Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.

So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest  200, 300 years?

Well, it's manifesting right now if you are on the scurrilous no fly list because someone doesn't like what you are saying.

Are you on it?   Who is on it and what did they say?

[Molly]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?

Where is the problem?  Where have you been?  Countries are going bankrupt, including our own.  We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.

My carpenter friend is living off friends now.  He has no problem.

How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things,  are things stellar?  I'm sure they are not optimum.  Global melt down?  really?    

More paranoia.

wow.  

How many businesses have closed down in the last year?  What is the unemployment rate?  How many foreclosures?  How many bank failures?  How many new homeless?  How much has this country gone into debt in the last year alone?  How much has the value of the dollar dropped in the last 8 years?

Do you really not know what is going on?

[Paul Hazelwood]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?

Where is the problem?  Where have you been?  Countries are going bankrupt, including our own.  We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.

My carpenter friend is living off friends now.  He has no problem.

How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things,  are things stellar?  I'm sure they are not optimum.  Global melt down?  really?    

More paranoia.

wow.  

How many businesses have closed down in the last year?  What is the unemployment rate?  How many foreclosures?  How many bank failures?  How many new homeless?  How much has this country gone into debt in the last year alone?  How much has the value of the dollar dropped in the last 8 years?

Do you really not know what is going on?

Your confusing my optimism with ingorance because all you have shown me is a paranoid outlook that can be explained on a rational level rather than the level of government takeover of everyones personal freedom and global collasp based upon the presence of insane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo  end times"

[martincisneros]

I'll be very brief 'cause most folks around here aren't going to like what I have to say on this issue at all, but....

People that get adjustable rate mortgages probably won't be doing that in the future, if they've got any sense about reading what they signed previously!  I always just pay cash for whatever I do, so that's never a problem.  Funny thing about cash is that it takes all of the guess work out, shortens what you've got to read, and winds up being a thinner contract 'cause it doesn't include all of the "but if thou shalt not obey the voice of the lord your financial god, then all of these curses shall come upon you and overtake you...................................." 

It's difficult to change the laws to make things more fair.  The Bible tells Israel not to lend money at usery levels of interest, but it doesn't tell anyone else that, though you could imply the Church as well shouldn't be making folks pay to the nose.  The Bible says the borrower is the servant of the lender.  The moment you bowed your financial knee to this babylonian system of commerce out there, your finances were fallen from grace.  You made your financial covenant elsewhere, and uh.......  if we weren't under the covenant of grace right now, whoops!

[Molly]

Who is on it and what did they say?

You know, you could look this stuff up yourself.  I'm not sure you really care.  here are some examples:



David Fathi, an attorney for the ACLU of Iranian descent and a plaintiff in the ACLU lawsuit.[18]


U.S. Representative John Lewis (D-GA), widely known for his civil rights advocacy, has been stopped many times.[26]

James Moore, an Emmy-winning television news correspondent, co-author of Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential, political activist, and outspoken critic of the Bush administration, was placed on the No Fly List.[28]

Walter F. Murphy, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton, reported that the following exchange took place at Newark on 1 March 2007, where he was denied a boarding pass "because I [Professor Murphy] was on the Terrorist Watch list." The airline employee asked, "Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." "I explained," said professor Murphy, "that I had not so marched but had, in September 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the constitution." To which the airline employee responded, "That'll do it."[29]

Jesselyn Radack, a former United States Department of Justice ethics adviser who argued that John Walker Lindh was entitled to an attorney, was placed on the No Fly List as part of what many believe to be a reprisal for her whistleblowing.

In September 2004, former pop singer Cat Stevens (who converted to Islam and changed his name to "Yusuf Islam" in 1978) was denied entry into the U.S. after his name was found on the list.[32]

Until July 2008, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress were on the list, something that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called "rather embarrassing".[36] On July 5, 2008, the U.S. removed Mandela and the ANC from the list.[37]

In October 2008, it was revealed that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information on the terrorist watch list.[40] Also, protest groups were entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed on the list because of their opposition to the death penalty and the Iraq war.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

[Paul Hazelwood]

Martin I don't always agree with you,  but I tend to see where your comeing from in this post and won't disagree on the level of where we place our worth.

I know people that it is just so important to have the "cool" job, the job others may envy,  the big pay so they are noticed as "money" when someone hears where they work.

He was in 3 years of depression after getting laid off,  became a hermit and then became critical of people because they didn't notice him now.

I was still in church at the time, I called him (while still being in that church) and asked if he was ok,  he ranted about  "no one from the church ever called him"   So in reality I meant nothing to the man because the idols in his heart were about who he wanted to be noticed by.

this guy was very good at painting these paranoid pictures of collapse and the structure of things being bad,  but none of it held up to reality at all.

[Doc]

I can kind of see both sides of this. There is certainly an element on the personal level of reaping what we've sown, but part of that is that the system that encourages the behavior that's gotten us in trouble is broken too.

[Molly]

insane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo  end times"

Let's be clear about one thing.  There is truth to be seen here.  And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.

As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints.  So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned.  But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Who is on it and what did they say?

You know, you could look this stuff up yourself.  I'm not sure you really care.  here are some examples:

Actually, what I wait for is people who use sources and do not see the ridiculousness of them.

The No Fly List, sometimes called the terrorist watch list, is a secret list created and maintained by the United States government of people who are not permitted to board a commercial aircraft for travel in or out of the United States. It includes approximately 2,500 names as of October 2008[update].[1]

So ,  tell me Molly,  why I should believe a source that says something is secret but claims to know all about it.   Really, this is funny stuff.

[Paul Hazelwood]

insane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo  end times"

Let's be clear about one thing.  There is truth to be seen here.  And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.

As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints.  So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned.  But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.

You started on the insinuation wagon right off the bat,  I was wondering when you were going to twist it around.   Your probably still wondering why I can't take you seriously.

[Molly]

So ,  tell me Molly,  why I should believe a source that says something is secret but claims to know all about it.   Really, this is funny stuff.

What are you talking about?

The list is secret but many violations have been reported on, as people make things known in law suits, etc.

You are not even making sense now.

You asked me a question and I gave you a good answer.  Do you think it is right that someone should be prevented from flying in this country because they oppose the policies of the current administration?  Is that your idea of freedom?

[Molly]

insane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo  end times"

Let's be clear about one thing.  There is truth to be seen here.  And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.

As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints.  So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned.  But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.

You started on the insinuation wagon right off the bat,  I was wondering when you were going to twist it around.   Your probably still wondering why I can't take you seriously.

I am just trying to tell you the truth as I see it.  I am giving examples to back things up.  I could do more, but it seems like it is a waste of time.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You are not even making sense now.

So it makes sense to say the list is secret, but you know how many names are on the secret list that is secret?

Is that your idea of freedom?

It is my idea of an imperfect system rather than the paranoia that the government is watching and ready to round us all up as you have stated a concern over.

It is confusing my interest in individual cases that are unfortunate for my complacency in jumping on your band wagon.   That is the difference.

[Molly]

You are not even making sense now.

So it makes sense to say the list is secret, but you know how many names are on the secret list that is secret?

Is that your idea of freedom?

It is my idea of an imperfect system rather than the paranoia that the government is watching and ready to round us all up as you have stated a concern over.

It is confusing my interest in individual cases that are unfortunate for my complacency in jumping on your band wagon.   That is the difference.

Yes, because the names come out as people sue the government and report violations to the media.

It's an imperfect system? ROFL  You think the police imperfectly and by mistake put 56 anti war protestors and organizations on the list?  Somebody is sending a very big message to those who want to retain some freedom of travel--keep your mouth shut and go along.

The system should not even exist in the first place.  Travel should not be restricted to anyone in a free country.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I could do more, but it seems like it is a waste of time.

Pointing out all the weblinks is a waste of time, because as a person googles they look for the evidence of what they want to report, not the balance of the whole picture.

I have no doubt that you could link you hearts content out, so what?    I can link you sites that prove the moon landing was a hoax,  oh my that makes it true cause I can post a web link.

So I'll give you that on your perception that posting web links to me to prove your correct is a waste of time,  good call.

[Molly]

Oh I see.  You don't want evidence.

Ok.  That's kind of the end of the discussion, isn't it?

Unless we should just call each other names and call it a day.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The system should not even exist in the first place.  Travel should not be restricted to anyone in a free country.

My problem is that few look at the real problem.   The real problem is after the fact paranoia.  If you want real paranoia, just think about the things a terrorist could do to our country that no one could stop no matter how free or restricted anything is.

I'm all for restricting flight if the evidence is iron clad and not politically exempt, but it is not, it is based on political posturing that will have no effect.

However,  the intent of the list has stopped real events from taking place.   You can laugh all you like,  the intent is actually protection of our citizens,  but paranoia keeps anyone from realizing that the intent is why I will not jump on the wagon your on.


This same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years  the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on  for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.

So think what you like.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Oh I see.  You don't want evidence.

Ok.  That's kind of the end of the discussion, isn't it?

Unless we should just call each other names and call it a day.

Oh so if I post a link of the moon landing being a hoax you will believe it to be true?  I mean Google knows all.

[Molly]

This same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years  the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on  for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.

Of course it has been going on.  Does that make it right?  But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world.  And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years  the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on  for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.

Of course it has been going on.  Does that make it right?  But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world.  And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.

That is the typical argument,  "its worse now than ever"  but all it does is to promote the same fear that has never been in danger of ruining freedom in this country in the first place.

No matter what is allowed or restricted there is ALWAYS collateral damage.  the attempt to restrict the gathering of any and all information will un intentionally actually increase the likelyhood of identity theft,  because as people break the law to gather information, then according to you, it would be wrong for law enforcement to  "GATHER INFORMATION" in order to find out how the criminal might of used the stolen information.  Oh but of course then we are more free because of that, yeah, thats the twist, and on paper it might seem fine, in reality it is not.

[Molly]

This same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years  the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on  for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.

Of course it has been going on.  Does that make it right?  But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world.  And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.

That is the typical argument,  "its worse now than ever"  but all it does is to promote the same fear that has never been in danger of ruining freedom in this country in the first place.

No matter what is allowed or restricted there is ALWAYS collateral damage.  the attempt to restrict the gathering of any and all information will un intentionally actually increase the likelyhood of identity theft,  because as people break the law to gather information, then according to you, it would be wrong for law enforcement to  "GATHER INFORMATION" in order to find out how the criminal might of used the stolen information.  Oh but of course then we are more free because of that, yeah, thats the twist, and on paper it might seem fine, in reality it is not.

I am not a criminal.  I have not committed any crime, nor am I suspected of having committed any crime.  Therefore, no one has the right to any of my private and personal information for any reason whatsoever.  Nor would they do it if it did not have a nefarious purpose.  I'm sorry if saying that makes you fearful.  But, fear is sometimes appropriate.

If I lose that privacy, then I will lose my freedom eventually, because eventually someone will find a way to use it against me, just like they have done to people--on purpose--on the no fly list.  That goes for you, too.  Consider that a law of power, tyranny, human nature, and satan.  That's not paranoia.  That's a fact of history.

The only difference between Nixon's secret enemies list, for which he was forced out of office, and the no fly and other lists maintained today, is that Nixon wasn't clever enough or bold enough to use bogus 'terrorist' propaganda to justify it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am not a criminal.  I have not committed any crime, nor am I suspected of having committed any crime.  Therefore, no one has the right to any of my private and personal information for any reason whatsoever.  I'm sorry if saying that makes you fearful.  But, fear is sometimes appropriate.

If I lose that privacy, then I will lose my freedom eventually, because eventually someone will find a way to use it against me, just like they have done to people--on purpose--on the no fly list.  That goes for you, too.

I have no problem with your personal opinion on that.  If thats what you see for you personally it is not my intent to make you believe otherwise.  I am putting out how I see it,  what you think of that is irrevalent to me.

It was actually my intent to see if anyone had any up close and personal experiences to help validate something that people fear.   There is no failure on my part to "use the google" but that doesn't prove anything for why I made this thread.   Get out your weblinks,  believe them, I don't really care.

Why is it that you can read about all this stuff, but when people actually personally know someone things like this happen to, that the details come out to be more the person than "totally" the system or the government?   No one wants to try to explain that, because they can't.

The friend I talked about lost their home, filed bankrupcy and now lives just fine in a rental, so while he can be used as a statistic, the reality of HIS life does not match what I am supposed to fear coming.

Where I work,  there are good times and bad,  when 911 hit business dropped off in an instant and my income was half of what it was for almost 2 years.

Fortunatly I live a simple life, do not need all the stuff people live for to where my income was so strapped to my dream life that cutting it in half could of ruined any perception of security I had.

This approaching doom as people want to be scared of certainly could affect me.  Business again could drop off and I might face very hard times.  But none of that is going to cause me to lose perspective of things over all.

Overall this country has a great history of righting wrongs and instilling programs and policies with the intent of making us all better and more equal and as ironic as some might think, more free.

Do I see perfection?  Of course not,  but perfection is not at issue,  the intent and struggle to  make this country better and more free IS actually happening.

If people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.

I see it differently,  it's that simple.

[Molly]

If people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.

Crime prevention?  What is the crime?  Disagreeing with your government's policies? Having the wrong last name?  Having said or written something those in power do not like?  Having the wrong religion? 

That is the rule, not the exception.  Unless you think there are real 'terrorists' on those lists rofl in which case they should be deported or put in jail.  Then no need for a list.

Why is it that you can read about all this stuff, but when people actually personally know someone things like this happen to, that the details come out to be more the person than "totally" the system or the government?   No one wants to try to explain that, because they can't.

As you know, I disagree with this.  I claim it's more the system and the government that allowed these abuses to occur.  That's why they occurred on such a massive scale.  Just like the system allowed 20 year old traders to sink huge banks and brokerage houses with their derivatives trading.  They don't care.  They made their millions all the way down.  The guy who oversaw the department that brought down aig, the biggest insurance company in the world,  got his 36 million dollar golden parachute and 1 million a month consulting contract.  You think he cares what happens to anyone else?

Let's take Bernie Madoff.  Where was the SEC for 20 years?  Out to lunch?  That's a long lunch.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.

Crime prevention?  What is the crime?  Disagreeing with your government's policies? Having the wrong last name?  Having said or written something those in power do not like?  Having the wrong religion? 

That is the rule, not the exception.  Unless you think there are real 'terrorists' on those lists rofl in which case they should be deported or put in jail.  Then no need for a list.

I will not give up the great view I get when I hack in and watch the camera feeds from your house that the government has planted.   It is much to interesting.

[Molly]

I will not give up the great view I get when I hack in and watch the camera feeds from your house that the government has planted.   It is much to interesting.

You know you can do that now for some cities? lol   You can do a street walk on google on some cities where you walk down the street, look in the windows, see people getting out of their cars. Check it out.