I can google something and find a blog, find some news source and make a case for just about any perspective I want. I could even challenge a spherical earth and say it's one big conspiracy.
I hear the same things everytime a new president gets in office, just I hear them from different groups, then when challenged out comes all the news articles, Blogs to make their case.
We hear that the government is taking away freedoms and such. But really from a personal perspective, I hear all the cries but have yet to be a witness to anything that substantial.
In fact, the changes made to college financing just allowed my wife to finish her last semester at a Christian based college. Contrary to a friend of mines rant and rave of paranoia who called me up and after I told him about our friends who lost their lives in alabama used that as the step to go on and on about government control. I can't begin to use the words I feel that a friend did that. This friend to me now is just another pompous Christian blowhard with nothing to say but BS.
Yeah, well, whatever. We hear the Christians all ready to go underground cause their rights are being taken away and well, last time I looked around my area, the churches were plentiful and the only ones struggling are the ones who are losing members as people find freedom from that bondage and stop giving money to the church and use it in other areas.
So, without posting some article you found with Google which simply means little when it comes to demonstratable fact.
Please explain, in your own words, what freedoms you have actually lost personally. Not what you been led to believe is going to happen, not what you think might happen, not even what you think has the theoretical potential to happen.
What has ACTUALLY happened, that you have been witness to that affected what you do.
QuoteI hear all the cries but have yet to be a witness to anything that substantial.
Have you read the Constitution? Have you read the Pat Acts? If so, how can you say that? What about the legislation that is coming out constantly on gun control and freedom of speech [hate crimes bills]? Have you read those? If so, how can you say that? Now they are going after the family farm. Did you know that?
Read all the executive orders of the last ten years and get back to me.
The Constitution was perfect the way it was written. It cannot be improved upon. Only degraded.
QuoteIn fact, the changes made to college financing just allowed my wife to finish her last semester at a Christian based college.
What changes? People can't get mortgages. They can't get car loans. And, you can get tuition? I've read that implicit in the new bills coming out is that only secular colleges (no mention of God) will receive tuition assistance. But, it's hard to tell yet what is in those thousands of pages of new law signed in before even Congress had time to read them.
Anyway, can you be bought? What is more precious? Freedom or a free ride?
Things are being set in place. Laws are being passed. Do you want to wait until they start rounding people up to say anything about it? It will be too late, then.
Thank you, Paul, for that post. I have some of the best news sources around and there aren't any big boogey men on the horizon. As far as loans, those have never been constitutional rights. The constitution was perfect in the way that it was written. Quite a bit that can be said about that. But so far, all of the laws have been about addressing the areas that the Constitution doesn't really, or gives us great doctrine about but not the means of implimenting this or that, so that we're having to figure it out on our own. During the constitutional era when supposedly it was the only rule of the land, Christian Universalists were still being tarred and feathered, losing their jobs, having their places burned down, being robbed, etc,. and the authorities genuinely cared very little. Things aren't that different today. Just somebody else getting their licks in or having to take it on the chin. Next year, it'll be an entirely different group as tables are turned 'cause anything governed by men....
My check bounced.... :laughing7:
Hi Molly,
Do you have a personal experience to share or not? I don't care what your insinuations are, forum rules prevent me from putting you in your place properly.
We did in fact just buy a house, had no trouble at all getting a mortgage . . in fact, if anything, I was a little surprised at how eager the bank was to give us the money . . .without a downpayment of any kind. And . . .due to some government thing, we were also allowed to receive an added $7,5000 to our income tax return . . .couldn't have come at a better time for us . . .our return this year was around $10,000. Yeah, we'll have to pay that $7,500 back over the next 15 years or something like that . . .but we sure needed it now with an added mortgage payment that we originally weren't prepared for.
For the record, I'm not political at all . . .hate politics . . .but from what I do hear about here and there . . I find myself more leaning toward conservatism than anything. And I'll even go so far to say (cuz this is a Christian forum where there is no condemnation) that I even like Rush Limbaugh! (Gasp!) His advice was not to take the money . . .but I never said I lived by him . . .just like listening to him. :laughing7:
I have a friend who lost their home and of course they blamed this financial crisis, after an hour of him ranting on the woes and paranoia, rights and freedoms and entitlements, I keyed in one omne thing he said. His interest rate went up and then they couldn't afford the payments.
After that hour, it took one question to know where the REAL issue was. I asked, "did you read the contract to determine the details about your interest rate"
His responce "No one reads that shi% you can't understand it anyway so I didn't bother, I was getting a house from this place when everyone else turned us down, so who cares"
Bottom line, my friend should first have never been sold a home to begin with in the price range they "dreamed" of. And secondly, what finger can be pointed when you won't read what your signing.
It is instances like this that are being used with false pretense to instill the paranoia, it is the government actually putting in place what should of been in place to prevent my (sorry friend it's just the truth) irresponsible friend from being put in a situation that he had no business being in no matter what someone says the constitution says.
Thats the reality.
Still more fun to blame the government for everything . . .especially if the guy in office isn't the one ya voted for. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 08:54:13 PM
Bottom line, my friend should first have never been sold a home to begin with in the price range they "dreamed" of. And secondly, what finger can be pointed when you won't read what your signing.
Paul I can say that your friend is not teh only one that fell into that trap. Some people even cancel their newspaper subscribtion so that the have enough money for their downpayments. A house is a 'smart investment' some commit even financial suicide to get yet another new cell phone.
People over leverage their income. So did all the banks that fell. The difference is that the banks who are expects on money get a bail out. The small man is doomed and on top of it may pay the bailout money.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 08:23:09 PM
Hi Molly,
Do you have a personal experience to share or not? I don't care what your insinuations are, forum rules prevent me from putting you in your place properly.
The only personal experience I have to share is that I predicted all of this long ago--meaning, it was all predictable to anyone who cared to pay attention.
So no surprises.
Do you know what the Glass-Steagall Act was and why it was so important that it be repealed for the final rape of america?
You mention your friend who bought the house he couldn't afford. Why was a bank that was going to be bailed out by the taxpayer --that's you and me and our children--be allowed to make such a risky loan in the first place? But, that's only a small part of the problem. Fractional banking and off book derivatives are the real problem. And that problem may never be solved in a way that is palatable to you and I.
What's happening right now is nothing new--it's the S & L debacle on steroids. That was testing one, two, three. but nobody understood that and nobody understands this, either.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 09:24:15 PM
So no surprises.
Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 09:31:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 09:24:15 PM
So no surprises.
Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.
I offered something personal. This was all predictable. What is going to happen next is also all predictable.
Nothing new under the sun, yes? But, first you have to know what has already happened that is about to repeat itself. Or, you can be surprised.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 09:31:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 09:24:15 PM
So no surprises.
Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.
I offered something personal. This was all predictable. What is going to happen next is also all predictable.
Nothing new under the sun, yes? But, first you have to know what has already happened that is about to repeat itself. Or, you can be surprised.
Who said I was surprised? Not surprised by people getting loans they can't actually afford.
Not surprised that you do nothing more than make negative insinuations while acting like you actually offered something substantial to the intent of my thread.
You read what is happening and no one is exempt from sowing and reaping. My friend sowed what he reaped and people actually think it is all the banks fault.
When it actually is the lack of regulation that people are so paranoid about now that was a big factor in why my friend as irresponsible as he is, got into a house he actually did not have the long term means to have.
That is being twisted in the media as huge government take overs and losses of freedoms.
But you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.
Like your statement "wait till they round everyone up" Paranoia. who are they going to round up?
Paul, what about our freedoms of privacy being taken away? Of course the Govt. isn't doing the snooping, corporations are spying on us and collecting info every day on us and building a database. Even what I've posted on these boards is now in that database. Future companies I may seek employment at will have access to what I've said, what I've purchased, my health records, what shows I watch, etc. and based upon that, may either hire me or not hire me.
After 9/11 our Govt. data mined these data gathering corporations to look for potential terrorists (which is O.K. with me).
They did a big show on CNBC I think it was a few days ago on this.
Of course, I'm O.K. . . . it's you I worry about :laughing7:
QuoteBut you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.
Close experience in what sense? I know an unemployed carpenter who got a 450K mortgage for a new house, even though he was out of work (temporarily, so he thought). They set it up so that the first 4 months of the mortgage would be paid by the mortgage. I doubt he put any money down at all.
Guess what happened? The payment was a payment that he could never afford to pay even if he were employed. Is that the kind of personal experience you want? And, whose fault is that? The unemployed carpenter or the unregulated bank that knew it would be bailed out by the taxpayer?
People have gotten fabulously wealthy in the last 9 years playing these deals. Millionaires are now chump change.
But, still we pay all our bills with notes. You know what a note is? It is debt. We are paying our bills with debt that is increasing at the rate of 2 trillion dollars a year. What does it say on that paper you use for money? It says 'note.' Does that make sense to you?
Well, you might say, it's ok, as long as someone else excepts debt as payment. But, what happens when they don't? God help us all.
Quote from: Tony N on March 25, 2009, 09:47:06 PM
Paul, what about our freedoms of privacy being taken away? Of course the Govt. isn't doing the snooping, corporations are spying on us and collecting info every day on us and building a database. Even what I've posted on these boards is now in that database. Future companies I may seek employment at will have access to what I've said, what I've purchased, my health records, what shows I watch, etc. and based upon that, may either hire me or not hire me.
After 9/11 our Govt. data mined these data gathering corporations to look for potential terrorists (which is O.K. with me).
They did a big show on CNBC I think it was a few days ago on this.
Of course, I'm O.K. . . . it's you I worry about :laughing7:
Anything can be seen as a projected negative whether or not is is actually freedom being removed or not.
Someone will read your post and immediatly go, OH NOEZ TEH COMPANIES ARE OUT TO GET ME" I want my freedom. When the only loss is what is perceived.
If you now go and get turned down from a job will you then say you've proven that this lack of privacy was the cause, I mean it certainly couldn't mean you were qualified for the job or you had very offensive breath at the interview and your supposed to be working close to other people now could it?
We've heard all this same paranoid stuff for decades, it resurfaces as a new spin and people thing, "OH NOW IT IS REALLY A THREAT"
What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 09:54:17 PM
QuoteBut you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.
Close experience in what sense? I know an unemployed carpenter who got a 450K mortgage for a new house, even though he was out of work (temporarily, so he thought). They set it up so that the first 4 months of the mortgage would be paid by the mortgage. I doubt he put any money down at all.
So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything? Is he going to be one of the ones rounded up? I am glad that you saying we are all going to be rounded up doesn;t make sense, that is my merciful father sparing me from the insanity of paranoia.
I have a friend who is mad and buying into all this lack of rights crap because she is unemployed and no one will finance her a car.
Guess what, this is right now since the government has started closing all the holes, as much as I'd like to buy a car for her had I the money, she could not afford a car loan with no job.
Where is the loss of freedom here? Please explain.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 09:42:48 PM
You read what is happening and no one is exempt from sowing and reaping. My friend sowed what he reaped and people actually think it is all the banks fault.
When it actually is the lack of regulation that people are so paranoid about now that was a big factor in why my friend as irresponsible as he is, got into a house he actually did not have the long term means to have.
Both your friend and the bank where irresponsible IMO.
But what about the sowing and reaping part?
Your friend maybe looses his house.
But the bank? They get a bailout. They overleveraged there resources just as much or likely even more as your friend did.
So IMO you and Molly agree more than you might think/see.
You call your friend irresponsible (I agree with that). Molly in a way said the same about the banks. But the banks should have seen it coming. It's their job and they where warned many times.
BTW some banks did very well. Usally those with triple A status.
QuoteWhat examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?
It's called boiling the frog. If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out. But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.
Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'? I got news for you lol. This is Hitler's wet dream. A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder. Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:03:37 PM
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:01:17 PM
QuoteWhat examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?
It's called boiling the frog. If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out. But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.
Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'? I got news for you lol. This is Hitler's wet dream. A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder. Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.
Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born? Thats where your swallowing the load. Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.
So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest 200, 300 years?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:03:37 PM
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?
Where is the problem? Where have you been? Countries are going bankrupt, including our own. We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.
My carpenter friend is living off friends now. He has no problem.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:01:17 PM
QuoteWhat examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?
It's called boiling the frog. If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out. But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.
Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'? I got news for you lol. This is Hitler's wet dream. A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder. Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.
Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born? Thats where your swallowing the load. Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.
So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest 200, 300 years?
Well, it's manifesting right now if you are on the scurrilous no fly list because someone doesn't like what you are saying.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:09:20 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:03:37 PM
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?
Where is the problem? Where have you been? Countries are going bankrupt, including our own. We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.
My carpenter friend is living off friends now. He has no problem.
How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things, are things stellar? I'm sure they are not optimum. Global melt down? really?
More paranoia.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:10:26 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:01:17 PM
QuoteWhat examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?
It's called boiling the frog. If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out. But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.
Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'? I got news for you lol. This is Hitler's wet dream. A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder. Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.
Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born? Thats where your swallowing the load. Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.
So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest 200, 300 years?
Well, it's manifesting right now if you are on the scurrilous no fly list because someone doesn't like what you are saying.
Are you on it? Who is on it and what did they say?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:09:20 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:03:37 PM
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?
Where is the problem? Where have you been? Countries are going bankrupt, including our own. We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.
My carpenter friend is living off friends now. He has no problem.
How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things, are things stellar? I'm sure they are not optimum. Global melt down? really?
More paranoia.
wow.
How many businesses have closed down in the last year? What is the unemployment rate? How many foreclosures? How many bank failures? How many new homeless? How much has this country gone into debt in the last year alone? How much has the value of the dollar dropped in the last 8 years?
Do you really not know what is going on?
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:15:22 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:09:20 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:03:37 PM
QuoteSo this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed, whats that got to do with anything?
No. He got a free place to live for two years. You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.
Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?
Where is the problem? Where have you been? Countries are going bankrupt, including our own. We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.
My carpenter friend is living off friends now. He has no problem.
How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things, are things stellar? I'm sure they are not optimum. Global melt down? really?
More paranoia.
wow.
How many businesses have closed down in the last year? What is the unemployment rate? How many foreclosures? How many bank failures? How many new homeless? How much has this country gone into debt in the last year alone? How much has the value of the dollar dropped in the last 8 years?
Do you really not know what is going on?
Your confusing my optimism with ingorance because all you have shown me is a paranoid outlook that can be explained on a rational level rather than the level of government takeover of everyones personal freedom and global collasp based upon the presence of insane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo end times"
I'll be very brief 'cause most folks around here aren't going to like what I have to say on this issue at all, but....
People that get adjustable rate mortgages probably won't be doing that in the future, if they've got any sense about reading what they signed previously! I always just pay cash for whatever I do, so that's never a problem. Funny thing about cash is that it takes all of the guess work out, shortens what you've got to read, and winds up being a thinner contract 'cause it doesn't include all of the "but if thou shalt not obey the voice of the lord your financial god, then all of these curses shall come upon you and overtake you...................................."
It's difficult to change the laws to make things more fair. The Bible tells Israel not to lend money at usery levels of interest, but it doesn't tell anyone else that, though you could imply the Church as well shouldn't be making folks pay to the nose. The Bible says the borrower is the servant of the lender. The moment you bowed your financial knee to this babylonian system of commerce out there, your finances were fallen from grace. You made your financial covenant elsewhere, and uh....... if we weren't under the covenant of grace right now, whoops!
QuoteWho is on it and what did they say?
You know, you could look this stuff up yourself. I'm not sure you really care. here are some examples:
David Fathi, an attorney for the ACLU of Iranian descent and a plaintiff in the ACLU lawsuit.[18]
U.S. Representative John Lewis (D-GA), widely known for his civil rights advocacy, has been stopped many times.[26]
James Moore, an Emmy-winning television news correspondent, co-author of Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential, political activist, and outspoken critic of the Bush administration, was placed on the No Fly List.[28]
Walter F. Murphy, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton, reported that the following exchange took place at Newark on 1 March 2007, where he was denied a boarding pass "because I [Professor Murphy] was on the Terrorist Watch list." The airline employee asked, "Have you been in any peace marches? We ban a lot of people from flying because of that." "I explained," said professor Murphy, "that I had not so marched but had, in September 2006, given a lecture at Princeton, televised and put on the web, highly critical of George Bush for his many violations of the constitution." To which the airline employee responded, "That'll do it."[29]
Jesselyn Radack, a former United States Department of Justice ethics adviser who argued that John Walker Lindh was entitled to an attorney, was placed on the No Fly List as part of what many believe to be a reprisal for her whistleblowing.
In September 2004, former pop singer Cat Stevens (who converted to Islam and changed his name to "Yusuf Islam" in 1978) was denied entry into the U.S. after his name was found on the list.[32]
Until July 2008, Nelson Mandela and other members of the African National Congress were on the list, something that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called "rather embarrassing".[36] On July 5, 2008, the U.S. removed Mandela and the ANC from the list.[37]
In October 2008, it was revealed that Maryland State Police classified 53 nonviolent political activists as terrorists, and entered their names and personal information on the terrorist watch list.[40] Also, protest groups were entered as terrorist organizations. During a hearing, it was revealed that these individuals and organizations had been placed on the list because of their opposition to the death penalty and the Iraq war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List
Martin I don't always agree with you, but I tend to see where your comeing from in this post and won't disagree on the level of where we place our worth.
I know people that it is just so important to have the "cool" job, the job others may envy, the big pay so they are noticed as "money" when someone hears where they work.
He was in 3 years of depression after getting laid off, became a hermit and then became critical of people because they didn't notice him now.
I was still in church at the time, I called him (while still being in that church) and asked if he was ok, he ranted about "no one from the church ever called him" So in reality I meant nothing to the man because the idols in his heart were about who he wanted to be noticed by.
this guy was very good at painting these paranoid pictures of collapse and the structure of things being bad, but none of it held up to reality at all.
I can kind of see both sides of this. There is certainly an element on the personal level of reaping what we've sown, but part of that is that the system that encourages the behavior that's gotten us in trouble is broken too.
Quoteinsane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo end times"
Let's be clear about one thing. There is truth to be seen here. And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.
As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints. So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned. But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:27:27 PM
QuoteWho is on it and what did they say?
You know, you could look this stuff up yourself. I'm not sure you really care. here are some examples:
Actually, what I wait for is people who use sources and do not see the ridiculousness of them.
QuoteThe No Fly List, sometimes called the terrorist watch list, is a secret list created and maintained by the United States government of people who are not permitted to board a commercial aircraft for travel in or out of the United States. It includes approximately 2,500 names as of October 2008[update].[1]
So , tell me Molly, why I should believe a source that says something is secret but claims to know all about it. Really, this is funny stuff.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:34:49 PM
Quoteinsane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo end times"
Let's be clear about one thing. There is truth to be seen here. And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.
As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints. So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned. But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.
You started on the insinuation wagon right off the bat, I was wondering when you were going to twist it around. Your probably still wondering why I can't take you seriously.
QuoteSo , tell me Molly, why I should believe a source that says something is secret but claims to know all about it. Really, this is funny stuff.
What are you talking about?
The list is secret but many violations have been reported on, as people make things known in law suits, etc.
You are not even making sense now.
You asked me a question and I gave you a good answer. Do you think it is right that someone should be prevented from flying in this country because they oppose the policies of the current administration? Is that your idea of freedom?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:38:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:34:49 PM
Quoteinsane religious kooks spelling out all this so called fullfillment of prophscy and the "oooooo end times"
Let's be clear about one thing. There is truth to be seen here. And to deny the truth by calling someone an end time kook, which is not what I am, doesn't advance our understanding in any way.
As a matter of fact, I personally believe that this will eventually be stopped by the corporate Christ, not by armageddon--that only happens after the thousand year reign of Christ and his saints. So, I'm a different kind of kook, as far as that is concerned. But I don't let it interfere with my perception of reality, because, frankly, if I didn't believe that, I could sure never predict it by what I see going on around me.
You started on the insinuation wagon right off the bat, I was wondering when you were going to twist it around. Your probably still wondering why I can't take you seriously.
I am just trying to tell you the truth as I see it. I am giving examples to back things up. I could do more, but it seems like it is a waste of time.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:44:00 PM
You are not even making sense now.
So it makes sense to say the list is secret, but you know how many names are on the secret list that is secret?
QuoteIs that your idea of freedom?
It is my idea of an imperfect system rather than the paranoia that the government is watching and ready to round us all up as you have stated a concern over.
It is confusing my interest in individual cases that are unfortunate for my complacency in jumping on your band wagon. That is the difference.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 10:49:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:44:00 PM
You are not even making sense now.
So it makes sense to say the list is secret, but you know how many names are on the secret list that is secret?
QuoteIs that your idea of freedom?
It is my idea of an imperfect system rather than the paranoia that the government is watching and ready to round us all up as you have stated a concern over.
It is confusing my interest in individual cases that are unfortunate for my complacency in jumping on your band wagon. That is the difference.
Yes, because the names come out as people sue the government and report violations to the media.
It's an imperfect system? ROFL You think the police imperfectly and by mistake put 56 anti war protestors and organizations on the list? Somebody is sending a very big message to those who want to retain some freedom of travel--keep your mouth shut and go along.
The system should not even exist in the first place. Travel should not be restricted to anyone in a free country.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:45:29 PM
I could do more, but it seems like it is a waste of time.
Pointing out all the weblinks is a waste of time, because as a person googles they look for the evidence of what they want to report, not the balance of the whole picture.
I have no doubt that you could link you hearts content out, so what? I can link you sites that prove the moon landing was a hoax, oh my that makes it true cause I can post a web link.
So I'll give you that on your perception that posting web links to me to prove your correct is a waste of time, good call.
Oh I see. You don't want evidence.
Ok. That's kind of the end of the discussion, isn't it?
Unless we should just call each other names and call it a day.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:51:52 PM
The system should not even exist in the first place. Travel should not be restricted to anyone in a free country.
My problem is that few look at the real problem. The real problem is after the fact paranoia. If you want real paranoia, just think about the things a terrorist could do to our country that no one could stop no matter how free or restricted anything is.
I'm all for restricting flight if the evidence is iron clad and not politically exempt, but it is not, it is based on political posturing that will have no effect.
However, the intent of the list has stopped real events from taking place. You can laugh all you like, the intent is actually protection of our citizens, but paranoia keeps anyone from realizing that the intent is why I will not jump on the wagon your on.
This same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.
So think what you like.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 10:56:02 PM
Oh I see. You don't want evidence.
Ok. That's kind of the end of the discussion, isn't it?
Unless we should just call each other names and call it a day.
Oh so if I post a link of the moon landing being a hoax you will believe it to be true? I mean Google knows all.
QuoteThis same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.
Of course it has been going on. Does that make it right? But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world. And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 11:04:16 PM
QuoteThis same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.
Of course it has been going on. Does that make it right? But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world. And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.
That is the typical argument, "its worse now than ever" but all it does is to promote the same fear that has never been in danger of ruining freedom in this country in the first place.
No matter what is allowed or restricted there is ALWAYS collateral damage. the attempt to restrict the gathering of any and all information will un intentionally actually increase the likelyhood of identity theft, because as people break the law to gather information, then according to you, it would be wrong for law enforcement to "GATHER INFORMATION" in order to find out how the criminal might of used the stolen information. Oh but of course then we are more free because of that, yeah, thats the twist, and on paper it might seem fine, in reality it is not.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 25, 2009, 11:13:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 11:04:16 PM
QuoteThis same kind of thing has been going on in the last 100 years the specifics of how info is gathered has changed, but the gathering of it has been going on for far longer than people realize and none of what is perceived to happen out of paranoia has happened.
Of course it has been going on. Does that make it right? But, now it is more high tech and therefore, is going on more than ever before in the history of the world. And, since we know there are those who desire world domination, and we understand tyranny and its goals, that is something that should not be allowed---lest they be too, shall we say, tempted, to use it towards their nefarious ends.
That is the typical argument, "its worse now than ever" but all it does is to promote the same fear that has never been in danger of ruining freedom in this country in the first place.
No matter what is allowed or restricted there is ALWAYS collateral damage. the attempt to restrict the gathering of any and all information will un intentionally actually increase the likelyhood of identity theft, because as people break the law to gather information, then according to you, it would be wrong for law enforcement to "GATHER INFORMATION" in order to find out how the criminal might of used the stolen information. Oh but of course then we are more free because of that, yeah, thats the twist, and on paper it might seem fine, in reality it is not.
I am not a criminal. I have not committed any crime, nor am I suspected of having committed any crime. Therefore, no one has the right to any of my private and personal information for any reason whatsoever. Nor would they do it if it did not have a nefarious purpose. I'm sorry if saying that makes you fearful. But, fear is sometimes appropriate.
If I lose that privacy, then I will lose my freedom eventually, because eventually someone will find a way to use it against me, just like they have done to people--on purpose--on the no fly list. That goes for you, too. Consider that a law of power, tyranny, human nature, and satan. That's not paranoia. That's a fact of history.
The only difference between Nixon's secret enemies list, for which he was forced out of office, and the no fly and other lists maintained today, is that Nixon wasn't clever enough or bold enough to use bogus 'terrorist' propaganda to justify it.
Quote from: Molly on March 25, 2009, 11:21:04 PM
I am not a criminal. I have not committed any crime, nor am I suspected of having committed any crime. Therefore, no one has the right to any of my private and personal information for any reason whatsoever. I'm sorry if saying that makes you fearful. But, fear is sometimes appropriate.
If I lose that privacy, then I will lose my freedom eventually, because eventually someone will find a way to use it against me, just like they have done to people--on purpose--on the no fly list. That goes for you, too.
I have no problem with your personal opinion on that. If thats what you see for you personally it is not my intent to make you believe otherwise. I am putting out how I see it, what you think of that is irrevalent to me.
It was actually my intent to see if anyone had any up close and personal experiences to help validate something that people fear. There is no failure on my part to "use the google" but that doesn't prove anything for why I made this thread. Get out your weblinks, believe them, I don't really care.
Why is it that you can read about all this stuff, but when people actually personally know someone things like this happen to, that the details come out to be more the person than "totally" the system or the government? No one wants to try to explain that, because they can't.
The friend I talked about lost their home, filed bankrupcy and now lives just fine in a rental, so while he can be used as a statistic, the reality of HIS life does not match what I am supposed to fear coming.
Where I work, there are good times and bad, when 911 hit business dropped off in an instant and my income was half of what it was for almost 2 years.
Fortunatly I live a simple life, do not need all the stuff people live for to where my income was so strapped to my dream life that cutting it in half could of ruined any perception of security I had.
This approaching doom as people want to be scared of certainly could affect me. Business again could drop off and I might face very hard times. But none of that is going to cause me to lose perspective of things over all.
Overall this country has a great history of righting wrongs and instilling programs and policies with the intent of making us all better and more equal and as ironic as some might think, more free.
Do I see perfection? Of course not, but perfection is not at issue, the intent and struggle to make this country better and more free IS actually happening.
If people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.
I see it differently, it's that simple.
QuoteIf people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.
Crime prevention? What is the crime? Disagreeing with your government's policies? Having the wrong last name? Having said or written something those in power do not like? Having the wrong religion?
That is the rule, not the exception. Unless you think there are real 'terrorists' on those lists rofl in which case they should be deported or put in jail. Then no need for a list.
QuoteWhy is it that you can read about all this stuff, but when people actually personally know someone things like this happen to, that the details come out to be more the person than "totally" the system or the government? No one wants to try to explain that, because they can't.
As you know, I disagree with this. I claim it's more the system and the government that allowed these abuses to occur. That's why they occurred on such a massive scale. Just like the system allowed 20 year old traders to sink huge banks and brokerage houses with their derivatives trading. They don't care. They made their millions all the way down. The guy who oversaw the department that brought down aig, the biggest insurance company in the world, got his 36 million dollar golden parachute and 1 million a month consulting contract. You think he cares what happens to anyone else?
Let's take Bernie Madoff. Where was the SEC for 20 years? Out to lunch? That's a long lunch.
Quote from: Molly on March 26, 2009, 12:12:34 AM
QuoteIf people would fight for how information is gathered that could actually be seen as reasonable for crime prevention rather than the all or nothing approach, then I'd be more apt to listen.
Crime prevention? What is the crime? Disagreeing with your government's policies? Having the wrong last name? Having said or written something those in power do not like? Having the wrong religion?
That is the rule, not the exception. Unless you think there are real 'terrorists' on those lists rofl in which case they should be deported or put in jail. Then no need for a list.
I will not give up the great view I get when I hack in and watch the camera feeds from your house that the government has planted. It is much to interesting.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2009, 12:38:01 AM
I will not give up the great view I get when I hack in and watch the camera feeds from your house that the government has planted. It is much to interesting.
You know you can do that now for some cities? lol You can do a street walk on google on some cities where you walk down the street, look in the windows, see people getting out of their cars. Check it out.
Quote from: Molly on March 26, 2009, 01:26:29 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 26, 2009, 12:38:01 AM
I will not give up the great view I get when I hack in and watch the camera feeds from your house that the government has planted. It is much to interesting.
You know you can do that now for some cities? lol You can do a street walk on google on some cities where you walk down the street, look in the windows, see people getting out of their cars. Check it out.
Oh, you mean you thought I was kidding?
It's difficult ot give personal experience, since it's all tied in with various legislation. However, and this isn't my personal experience, but the experiences of friends. One in Missouri alerted me that a police memo came out saying that all supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin are potential terrorists, as is anyone who is a member of the Libertarian Party, Campaign for Liberty, or anti-abortion.
Someone else was harrassed by a cop for having a Bible in their car. The cop said that Bible = guns.
The Patriot Act isn't a future legislation thing, but one that has landed many innocents in prison over nothing. No habeus corpus, no trial, just random arrests.
Quote from: Akira Takahashi on March 26, 2009, 04:12:53 AM
It's difficult ot give personal experience, since it's all tied in with various legislation. However, and this isn't my personal experience, but the experiences of friends. One in Missouri alerted me that a police memo came out saying that all supporters of Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin are potential terrorists, as is anyone who is a member of the Libertarian Party, Campaign for Liberty, or anti-abortion.
Someone else was harrassed by a cop for having a Bible in their car. The cop said that Bible = guns.
The Patriot Act isn't a future legislation thing, but one that has landed many innocents in prison over nothing. No habeus corpus, no trial, just random arrests.
I got pulled over once because I had a car that looked fast, an old junk truck in front of me burned rubber and when the cop looked up he had to assume it was my fast car of course.
There are all kinds of judgment calls people make that may not go in our favor, and if true, the cops harassment of someone over a bible is wrong, the cop wasn't paying attention or he'd known it wasn't me (at the time ;) ).
Lets get rid of cops since we can see that they are only getting innocents for nothing.