Reality check

[Paul Hazelwood]

I can google something and find a blog, find some news source and make a case for just about any perspective  I want.  I could even challenge a spherical earth and  say it's one big conspiracy. 

I hear the same things everytime a new president gets in office, just I hear them from different groups,  then when challenged out comes all the news articles,  Blogs  to make their case.

We hear that the government is taking away freedoms and such.  But really from a personal perspective, I hear all the cries but have yet to be a witness to anything that substantial.

In fact, the changes made to college financing just allowed my wife to finish her last semester at a Christian based college. Contrary to a friend of mines rant and rave of paranoia who called me up and after I told him about our friends who lost their lives in alabama used that as the step to go on and on about government control.   I can't begin to use the words I feel that a friend did that.  This friend to me now is just another pompous Christian blowhard with nothing to say but BS. 

Yeah, well, whatever.   We hear the Christians all ready to go underground cause their rights are being taken away and well, last time I looked around my area, the churches were plentiful and the only ones struggling are the ones who are losing members as people find freedom from that bondage and stop giving money to the church and use it in other areas.


So, without posting some article you found with Google which simply means little when it comes to demonstratable fact.


Please explain, in your own words,  what freedoms you have actually lost personally.  Not what you been led to believe is going to happen, not what you think might happen, not even what you think has the theoretical potential to happen.

What has ACTUALLY happened, that you have been witness to that affected what you do.

[Molly]

I hear all the cries but have yet to be a witness to anything that substantial.

Have you read the Constitution?  Have you read the Pat Acts?  If so, how can you say that?  What about the legislation that is coming out constantly on gun control and freedom of speech [hate crimes bills]?  Have you read those?  If so, how can you say that?  Now they are going after the family farm.  Did you know that?

Read all the executive orders of the last ten years and get back to me.

The Constitution was perfect the way it was written.  It cannot be improved upon.  Only degraded.

In fact, the changes made to college financing just allowed my wife to finish her last semester at a Christian based college.

What changes?  People can't get mortgages.  They can't get car loans. And, you can get tuition?  I've read that implicit in the new bills coming out is that only secular colleges (no mention of God) will receive tuition assistance.  But, it's hard to tell yet what is in those thousands of pages of new law signed in before even Congress had time to read them.

Anyway, can you be bought?  What is more precious?  Freedom or a free ride?

Things are being set in place.  Laws are being passed.   Do you want to wait until they start rounding people up to say anything about it?  It will be too late, then.

[martincisneros]

Thank you, Paul, for that post.  I have some of the best news sources around and there aren't any big boogey men on the horizon.  As far as loans, those have never been constitutional rights.  The constitution was perfect in the way that it was written.  Quite a bit that can be said about that.  But so far, all of the laws have been about addressing the areas that the Constitution doesn't really, or gives us great doctrine about but not the means of implimenting this or that, so that we're having to figure it out on our own.  During the constitutional era when supposedly it was the only rule of the land, Christian Universalists were still being tarred and feathered, losing their jobs, having their places burned down, being robbed, etc,. and the authorities genuinely cared very little.  Things aren't that different today.  Just somebody else getting their licks in or having to take it on the chin.  Next year, it'll be an entirely different group as tables are turned 'cause anything governed by men....

[WhiteWings]

My check bounced....  :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi Molly, 

Do you have a personal experience to share or not?   I don't care what your insinuations are, forum rules prevent me from putting you in your place properly.

[Nathan]

We did in fact just buy a house, had no trouble at all getting a mortgage . . in fact, if anything, I was a little surprised at how eager the bank was to give us the money . . .without a downpayment of any kind.  And . . .due to some government thing, we were also allowed to receive an added $7,5000 to our income tax return . . .couldn't have come at a better time for us . . .our return this year was around $10,000.  Yeah, we'll have to pay that $7,500 back over the next 15 years or something like that . . .but we sure needed it now with an added mortgage payment that we originally weren't prepared for.

For the record, I'm not political at all . . .hate politics . . .but from what I do hear about here and there . . I find myself more leaning toward conservatism than anything.  And I'll even go so far to say (cuz this is a Christian forum where there is no condemnation) that I even like Rush Limbaugh! (Gasp!)  His advice was not to take the money . . .but I never said I lived by him . . .just like listening to him. :laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have a friend who lost their home and of course they blamed this financial crisis,  after an hour of him ranting on the woes and paranoia,  rights and freedoms and entitlements,  I keyed in one omne thing he said.  His interest rate went up and then they couldn't afford the payments.


After that hour, it took one question to know where the REAL issue was.   I asked, "did you read the contract to determine the details about your interest rate"

His responce   "No one reads that  shi%  you can't understand it anyway so I didn't bother, I was getting a house from this place when everyone else turned us down, so who cares"


Bottom line,  my friend should first have never been sold a home to begin with in the price range they "dreamed" of.  And secondly, what finger can be pointed when you won't read what your signing.

It is instances like this that are being used with false pretense to instill the paranoia, it is the government actually putting in place what should of been in place to prevent my (sorry friend it's just the truth) irresponsible friend from being put in a situation that he had no business being in no matter what someone says the constitution says.

Thats the reality.

[Nathan]

Still more fun to blame the government for everything . . .especially if the guy in office isn't the one ya voted for. :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

Bottom line,  my friend should first have never been sold a home to begin with in the price range they "dreamed" of.  And secondly, what finger can be pointed when you won't read what your signing.

Paul I can say that your friend is not teh only one that fell into that trap. Some people even cancel their newspaper subscribtion so that the have enough money for their downpayments. A house is a 'smart investment' some commit even financial suicide to get yet another new cell phone.

People over leverage their income. So did all the banks that fell. The difference is that the banks who are expects on money get a bail out. The small man is doomed and on top of it may pay the bailout money.

[Molly]

Hi Molly, 

Do you have a personal experience to share or not?   I don't care what your insinuations are, forum rules prevent me from putting you in your place properly.

The only personal experience I have to share is that I predicted all of this long ago--meaning, it was all predictable to anyone who cared to pay attention.

So no surprises.

Do you know what the Glass-Steagall Act was and why it was so important that it be repealed for the final rape of america?

You mention your friend who bought the house he couldn't afford.  Why was a bank that was going to be bailed out by the taxpayer --that's you and me and our children--be allowed to make such a risky loan in the first place?  But, that's only a small part of the problem.  Fractional banking and off book derivatives are the real problem.  And that problem may never be solved in a way that is palatable to you and I.

What's happening right now is nothing new--it's the S & L debacle on steroids.  That was testing one, two, three.  but nobody understood that and nobody understands this, either.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So no surprises.

Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.

[Molly]

So no surprises.

Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.

I offered something personal.  This was all predictable.  What is going to happen next is also all predictable.

Nothing new under the sun, yes?  But, first you have to know what has already happened that is about to repeat itself.  Or, you can be surprised.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So no surprises.

Nothing personal to offer, nope, no surprises.

I offered something personal.  This was all predictable.  What is going to happen next is also all predictable.

Nothing new under the sun, yes?  But, first you have to know what has already happened that is about to repeat itself.  Or, you can be surprised.

Who said I was surprised?  Not surprised by people getting loans they can't actually afford.
Not surprised that you do nothing more than make negative insinuations while acting like you actually offered something substantial to the intent of my thread.

You read what is happening and no one is exempt from sowing and reaping.   My friend sowed what he reaped and people actually think it is all the banks fault.

When it actually is the lack of regulation that people are so paranoid about now  that was a big factor in why my friend as irresponsible as he is, got into a house he actually did not have the long term means to have.
That is being twisted in the media as huge government take overs and losses of freedoms.   

But you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.

Like your statement  "wait till they round everyone up"   Paranoia.  who are they going to round up?

[Tony N]

Paul, what about our freedoms of privacy being taken away? Of course the Govt. isn't doing the snooping, corporations are spying on us and collecting info every day on us and building a database. Even what I've posted on these boards is now in that database. Future companies I may seek employment at will have access to what I've said, what I've purchased, my health records, what shows I watch, etc. and based upon that, may either hire me or not hire me.
After 9/11 our Govt. data mined these data gathering corporations to look for potential terrorists (which is O.K. with me).

They did a big show on CNBC I think it was a few days ago on this.

Of course, I'm O.K. . . . it's you I worry about  :laughing7:

[Molly]

But you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.

Close experience in what sense?  I know an unemployed carpenter who got a 450K mortgage for a new house, even though he was out of work (temporarily, so he thought).  They set it up so that the first 4 months of the mortgage would be paid by the mortgage.  I doubt he put any money down at all.

Guess what happened?  The payment was a payment that he could never afford to pay even if he were employed.  Is that the kind of personal experience you want?  And, whose fault is that?  The unemployed carpenter or the unregulated bank that knew it would be bailed out by the taxpayer?

People have gotten fabulously wealthy in the last 9 years playing these deals.  Millionaires are now chump change.

But, still we pay all our bills with notes.  You know what a note is?  It is debt.  We are paying our bills with debt that is increasing at the rate of 2 trillion dollars a year.  What does it say on that paper you use for money?  It says 'note.'  Does that make sense to you?

Well, you might say, it's ok, as long as someone else excepts debt as payment.  But, what happens when they don't?  God help us all.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, what about our freedoms of privacy being taken away? Of course the Govt. isn't doing the snooping, corporations are spying on us and collecting info every day on us and building a database. Even what I've posted on these boards is now in that database. Future companies I may seek employment at will have access to what I've said, what I've purchased, my health records, what shows I watch, etc. and based upon that, may either hire me or not hire me.
After 9/11 our Govt. data mined these data gathering corporations to look for potential terrorists (which is O.K. with me).

They did a big show on CNBC I think it was a few days ago on this.

Of course, I'm O.K. . . . it's you I worry about  :laughing7:

Anything can be seen as a projected negative whether or not is is actually freedom being removed or not.  

Someone will read your post and immediatly go,  OH NOEZ TEH COMPANIES ARE OUT TO GET ME" I want my freedom.  When the only loss is what is perceived.

If you now go and get turned down from a job will you then say you've proven that this lack of privacy was the cause, I mean it certainly couldn't mean you were qualified for the job or you had very offensive breath at the interview and your supposed to be working close to other people now could it?

We've heard all this same paranoid stuff for decades,  it resurfaces as a new spin and people thing,  "OH NOW IT IS REALLY A THREAT"

What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?

[Paul Hazelwood]

But you have no close experience with you or a close enough friend to get the "whole" picture to actually help verify all this paranoia in the first place.

Close experience in what sense?  I know an unemployed carpenter who got a 450K mortgage for a new house, even though he was out of work (temporarily, so he thought).  They set it up so that the first 4 months of the mortgage would be paid by the mortgage.  I doubt he put any money down at all.

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?   Is he going to be one of the ones rounded up?  I am glad that you saying we are all going to be rounded up doesn;t make sense,  that is my merciful father sparing me from the insanity of paranoia.


I have a friend who is mad and buying into all this lack of rights crap because she is unemployed and no one will finance her a car.

Guess what,  this is right now since the government has started closing all the holes,  as much as I'd like to buy a car for her had I the money,  she could not afford a car loan with no job.


Where is the loss of freedom here?  Please explain.

[WhiteWings]

You read what is happening and no one is exempt from sowing and reaping.   My friend sowed what he reaped and people actually think it is all the banks fault.

When it actually is the lack of regulation that people are so paranoid about now  that was a big factor in why my friend as irresponsible as he is, got into a house he actually did not have the long term means to have.

Both your friend and the bank where irresponsible IMO.
But what about the sowing and reaping part?
Your friend maybe looses his house.
But the bank? They get a bailout. They overleveraged there resources just as much or likely even more as your friend did.
So IMO you and Molly agree more than you might think/see.
You call your friend irresponsible (I agree with that). Molly in a way said the same about the banks. But the banks should have seen it coming. It's their job and they where warned many times.
BTW some banks did very well. Usally those with triple A status.

[Molly]

What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?

It's called boiling the frog.  If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out.  But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.

Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'?  I got news for you lol.  This is Hitler's wet dream.  A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder.  Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.

[Molly]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?

[Paul Hazelwood]

What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?

It's called boiling the frog.  If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out.  But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.

Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'?  I got news for you lol.  This is Hitler's wet dream.  A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder.  Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.

Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born?  Thats where your swallowing the load.  Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.

So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest  200, 300 years?

[Molly]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?

Where is the problem?  Where have you been?  Countries are going bankrupt, including our own.  We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.

My carpenter friend is living off friends now.  He has no problem.

[Molly]

What examples do you have of the reality of it in the seriousness of losing freedoms?

It's called boiling the frog.  If you put the frog in boiling water, he'll jump out.  But if you put him in cold water which you heat slowly, he'll just go to sleep and never wake up.

Do you really think all these cameras and spying, electronic and otherwise, is for 'terrorists'?  I got news for you lol.  This is Hitler's wet dream.  A 'terrorist' is in the eye of beholder.  Communist Russia killed 60 to 100 million Christian 'terrorists' in the last century.

Do you really think this gathering of information hasn't been going on since before you were born?  Thats where your swallowing the load.  Quit being an information prostitute, selling your sanity for a quick fix of self gratifying prophesy.

So just how long will this sperm covered Hitler take to manifest  200, 300 years?

Well, it's manifesting right now if you are on the scurrilous no fly list because someone doesn't like what you are saying.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So this carpenter wanted a dream life and he reaped what he sowed,  whats that got to do with anything?

No.  He got a free place to live for two years.  You and I are reaping what he sowed, but, more importantly, what the bank sowed--in other words, what the government allowed to be sowed.

Yes and the government has made changes, perfect or not and now my unemployed friend cannot finance a car, so where is the problem there now in the case with that friend?

Where is the problem?  Where have you been?  Countries are going bankrupt, including our own.  We are in the middle of a global economic melt down.

My carpenter friend is living off friends now.  He has no problem.

How is it that people are still driving away with new cars and used cars where I work, buying new homes, people are in stores buying things,  are things stellar?  I'm sure they are not optimum.  Global melt down?  really?    

More paranoia.