Baptism

[Taffy]

this is all way to gnostic for me  :laughhand:

:happygrin:

Fine Post Nate :icon_flower:

[Jerm]

As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism.  For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ.  Now, I see it as much more.  I see it as an initiation into the Christian community.  And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ.  I also think that many take it too lightly.  I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community.  Again, this is just my opinion.

But what public? And how would people know you were baptised unless you TOLD them you were? Wouldn't it just be the same thing to say "I'm a follower of Christ."

What is the "christian community"?

I mean... like I said, I've never been baptised. I'm part of THIS community... most of the people here are followers of Christ.

I really do want to understand why some think baptism is important. (I'm not saying it is or it isn't..) I'm not asking my questions to try to sound like a smart aleck.. :grin: It may come across that way, but trust me... I truly am just trying to get info.

Good grief, what a smart aleck!!!!  (Just kidding sparrow  :thumbsup:)  These are some very good points you've brought up.  I think that this harkens back to the Early Church.  For them, baptism was their way of saying "I'm a follower of Christ."  And Christian Community is just another term for the Church.  Also, I think I might have given the impression that someone who isn't baptized is not a true follower of Christ or apart of the Christian community which is not what I was trying to get at (Sorry bout that.)  Still, I do think that baptism is important because of what it has traditionally meant in the Church.  Does this help any or have I talked in one big circle?

[Nathan]

I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.

[Jerm]

I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.

Ditto  :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.

What if Christ is in a person but doesn't necessarily cause that person to want to be baptised?
I am really just trying to understand this.

I'm not sure I understand why it would be a red flag? Like, you mean you think someone is being disobedient? What if they don't feel the urge to do it, other than other human beings telling them it is something that they should do? Wouldn't it be wrong for that person to just do something they don't feel led to do...?

Can you baptize yourself? Because I may have done that before. in a pool and in a bathtub... as a symbolic type thing to myself.

[Nathan]

First . . .God does use people to speak to other people . . .that's what the river that flows out of us is . . .it's coming from out of our core . .through our mouths and hands and feet and any other tool he so chooses to use.

Having said that . . . no one should be pushing you into anything.  Encouragment, sure, but insisting . .that's up to you.  I think the more pertinant question is . . . are you willing to do it?

[sparrow]

First . . .God does use people to speak to other people . . .that's what the river that flows out of us is . . .it's coming from out of our core . .through our mouths and hands and feet and any other tool he so chooses to use.

Having said that . . . no one should be pushing you into anything.  Encouragment, sure, but insisting . .that's up to you.  I think the more pertinant question is . . . are you willing to do it?

Hey Nathan... I absolutely know that God uses people to speak to other people. I'm not sure why you are mentioning that? He's used me a bunch of times, and I've heard God through other people countless times. What does that have to do with baptism?

No-one is pushing me into anything.... 
You said your question to me is "Are you willing to do it?"
My question is... WHY do it...? Did you see my other questions?

Does anyone here understand what I'm saying...
and can anyone answer the questions in my last post?

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[Nathan]

Sorry . . .I meant to touch on the other questions and didn't.  But the reason I stated what I did about God speaking through others was because you mentioned "What if they don't feel the urge to do it, other than other human beings telling them it is something that they should do?

I took that as others insisting it's something you must do.

I hesitate to think that Christ would set a standard and then not at some point in one's relationship with him, not move them to have a desire to follow the standard.  So to answer that question, I'd simply say no, I don't think he would ignore the possiblity . . .he's no respector of persons . . .again, just my opinions here.

As to "why" I'd respond with 'simple obedience'.  It's not always about us having to understand it all "before" acting or receiving on what is being offered.  Faith is the opposite of that actually.

And as far as baptizing yourself . . . this just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength.  There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.  But the bottom line is . . .I did it because I felt he wanted me to do it . . .the invitation often comes "through" the opportunity . . in other words . . .when someone announces there is going to be a baptism coming up . . .the Holy Spirit uses that to spark an interest in people to respond to it.

Not always of course . . .there are also many times people will go looking for someone to baptize them.  But again, there's no pressure either way.  It's like falling in love . . .how do you know it's real?  When it happens . . you just know.

[sparrow]

Ok, I guess I understand what you're saying.

I suppose I just have had a different experience. There is no baptisms going on around me. I do not attend a building church. It's not something that is in my face...ever.

this just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength.  There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.

But see... I don't get that. Why would it be an avoidance? If someone doesn't feel LED...to do something that other people are saying they REALLY SHOULD DO... how would that be avoidance? It seems that would be the opposite. The person is trusting in God to lead them and not trusting in people. If someone tells me something and then God shows me the same thing...then I listen..my ears open up..

Just because there are no instances in scripture...does that mean it's necessarily wrong?

What if a person was on a desserted island? and no-one could baptize the person?
What then?

I know it's not about getting wet. To me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?

[onlytruth]

hi everyone... i've been baptized 3 times
first time, my parents sprinkled water on me with the pastor i was only months old(this filled the rquirement for my parents and the reformed church they attend)obviosly i had no choice.
second time,my wife and i wanted to join a mennonite church.in order to do this i had to have "beleivers baptism".now this got my goat!...i had already done my confession of faith(reformed church theology,allowing you to be a full member).i battled all the pastors on this one!why,why,why do i have to make another public faith confession through baptism!
i started battling the spirit on this one as well,saying to myself these are man's ways.why should i submit?!
then i sensed in my spirit," do this unto your Father,this pleases me".then the man thing fell off and i became excited to do this for my Father instead
just before i went under(in front of the very large church).i testified that" there are many voices calling but i choose His only"...wow!!! it became just between me and my Father!
the third time i was in israel and ...yup! i was baptized in the jordan river(more a stream now,with really big fish in it)
walking in the same steps as jesus,i wanted to testify again.i got some great pictures as well of me coming out of the water .you see the joy on my face...even typing now i feel the joy again!!!
so i guess ...do it for your Father ...He loves you!
blessings :icon_king:

[aspiring son]

this just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength.  There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.

I had my wife do it. And this was after seeking for someone to do it, then having all kinds of doctrines thrown at me while trying to do it. It may have been a blessing for most of you. But my blessing came a few years later when I realized God was showing me that all those things were to strengthen me. I was torn about not being baptized. And who is officially "authorized" to baptize anyway? What makes my wife less qualified then a minister whom's doctrines I do not agree with? I do not plan on doing it again. I feel very much past that stage.

Grace and peace

[Nathan]

this just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength.  There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.

But see... I don't get that. Why would it be an avoidance? If someone doesn't feel LED...to do something that other people are saying they REALLY SHOULD DO... how would that be avoidance? It seems that would be the opposite. The person is trusting in God to lead them and not trusting in people. If someone tells me something and then God shows me the same thing...then I listen..my ears open up..

Just because there are no instances in scripture...does that mean it's necessarily wrong?

What if a person was on a desserted island? and no-one could baptize the person?
What then?

I know it's not about getting wet. To me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?

I'm not trying to state what is right or wrong . . .I'm just sharing how I see it to be for me.  My "avoidance" comment was stemming from the idea that baptism is a public proclamation .. . it is also a submission . . .by baptizing myself, I'm sidestepping both of those major points.  Yes, it's a personal experience, but the purpose of it was to have it done publically.  Let others be a part of this wonderful experience that has happened in you.  Let them see the freedom that has come, the joy that is now present, the bondages that have been broken . . .being baptized in private  . .for me . . .defeats the whole purpose.

Secondly, the submission comes as I "let" the hands of another bury me . . . Jesus "willingly" gave his life . . .he totally submitted himself to the hands of others as they took his life from him.  Jesus didn't take his own life . . .he didn't baptize himself . . .but he willingly turned his life over to the hands of another.  And he didn't resurrect himself either . . .which is the symbolism of us coming up out of the watter . . .if I baptize myself, I am taking my life in my own hands, submitting to no others, and I'm burying myself . . .and then I'm resurrecting myself.  It may sound innocent, but it over-rides the symoblism that baptism represents. 

And that's why we do it . . .for the symbolism of it . . .not because it's another rule we "must" follow.  But there was so much that was beneath the surface of what was going on in that process.  I have found that even praying for . . .laying hands on and praying for another is much easier and more comfortable for me than to have someone lay hands on and pray over me . . . and I believe that has much to do with the act of submitting myself over into the hands of another.  It's a form of humility as well.

Again .  . . the deserted island thing is more of an exception to the rule kind of thing.  Think of the Etheopian that Phillip was ministering to . . . once the truth of salvation was illuminated to him . . .the opportunity to follow the established pattern presented itself and there was a great manifestation of God's glory because of it.

I wonder if the water baptism doesn't get misrepresented in many churches . . .we do it because that's just what you're supposed to do . . . and that's great that you walk in the obedience, but there's no revelation that goes with it.  You're just responding to the pastor's expectations.  But if we took the time and waited upon the Lord to show us why it "is" so important, I think there'd be even more of a willingness to respond . .as well as much less judgment to those who don't respond.

Taking communion is the same thing . . there are many who hear that "if anyone is unworthy . . ." part and they immediately feel guilt from hidden secrets in their lives that they elect to not partake in the communion . . .when just the opposite is what was intended when that was stated.  If anyone should be taking communion . . it should "especially" be those that felt they were unworthy . . .communion is an opportunity for healing . .to pass up on that would be a detrimental thing.

[Molly]

To me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?

I think you and God have a very special relationship. :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Quoted out of context? I'm sure someone will inform me  :laughing7:

[sheila]

  well, born of water is the act of repentance mere symbolism of

the actual spiritual events occurring[John's baptism]

  then the disciples baptized in Jesus name..signifying faith

  in the son of God......and then    Jesus baptized with holy

  spirit a token of the salvation that is assured.

   So, if you have turned from the way that is not good..

  and have professed faith in Jesus Christ....

  and received the Holy spirit...it seems to me you would

  be right were you need to be....

  Seems to me the ACTUAL SPIRITUAL meaning is more

  important than the symbols.

   I've been baptized three times myself...first Jesus

  baptized me when I was 17.....then I joined a very legalistic

  church at 30 ..and they baptized me

.then 7 years ago I baptized myself in the lake all by myself

as a re-dedication to Him ALONE after I was called out of

that legalistic church

 

[Molly]

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Interesting.  We are all born of water, as any mother who knows the water breaks before the baby is born can attest.

But we must be born of water and Spirit to enter the kingdom.

[WhiteWings]

If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.

[WhiteWings]

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Mark 1:8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Assuming "Holy Ghost" means exactly the same as "Spirit" people are baptized with Holy Ghost and water.
But Luke also mentions Fire. Is the fire an extra component or just an extra name for the same thing?
Like: Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit = Spirit = Fire?

[WhiteWings]

If Fire=Holy Ghost then LoF simply could mean baptizm with fire...  :flamebreath:

[Molly]

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

--Acts 1

"power"

G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.



1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

--Acts 2

[Molly]

If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.

Yes, born twice.  Or, born again.

[born] "again"

G509
ἄνωθεν
anōthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.


3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

--John 3


The water represents the mother giving birth to you.


Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The river [Jordan] represents crossing over from death to life.

Jordan

H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): -  X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.

[WhiteWings]

If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.

Yes, born twice.  Or, born again.

Three times...
Water+Water+HS=3

[Molly]

If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.

Yes, born twice.  Or, born again.

Three times...
Water+Water+HS=3

:thumbsup: :icon_king:

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

[WhiteWings]

Yeah it adds up to 3....

But I would have expected fire.
Fire+Water+HS

Not being born twice in this life means kicked into a lake of fire. Not a lake of water....

[Molly]

Yeah it adds up to 3....

But I would have expected fire.
Fire+Water+HS

Not being born twice in this life means kicked into a lake of fire. Not a lake of water....

water, water [born again], fire

Fire can give warmth or it can burn.  It can give life [light] or it can kill.


Luke 20:18
Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."