Since everyone here comes from different backgrounds, this should be an interesting discussion: Do you think that infant baptism is warranted or only believer's baptism?
For me, my whole life I believed that infant baptism is wrong. I saw baptism as a public confession that one was a believer in Christ and since an infant obviously doesn't have the mental capacity to profess faith, an infant shouldn't be baptized. However, I have started viewing baptism as more of an initiation into the Christian community and if this the meaning baptism, then would that mean that if a child is born into a Christian family, would them being baptized simply be a way of initiating them into the Christian community? Plus, I have read in many places that infant baptism was practiced from the earliest years of the Church and that the only reason we don't see it occuring specifically in the New Testament is because during this time period, all Christians were adults who had converted from either Judaism or a Pagan religion. All of this is simply food for thought and I haven't really made up my mind yet. Any thoughts?
I see infant baptism more as a 'thank you Lord' from the parents. As you said the child knows/chooses nothing.
Personally I think it's useless for the child.
That said I'm looking forward to learn more about baptism for adults. The idea's on it seem to differ as much as ET and UR. From an absolute must, to when ready, to useless because....
:cloud9: Baptism in water symbolizes being baptized into His death, ie. John baptized them for the repentance from dead works. So this, I think is the reason why we hear of no infants being baptized in water in the Word, because they are not of the age of accountability, and have done no dead works. Those that converted them had children too, and yet we still don't see a reference to it.
It doesn't bother me if some people want to, as some sort of ceremony of giving their children to the Lord. He looks at the motive of the heart in all things. But I wouldn't do it as a requirement of some denomination. My :2c: Blessings.....
Interesting thoughts :thumbsup: Something else that I've been thinking about concerning baptism is it's unfortunate decline. Whether one believes in believer's baptism, infant baptism, or whatever, I think baptism is very important and I think it's kind of sad that it has basically be pushed aside and in some circles competely replaced by the Altar Call/Sinner's Prayer.
:cloud9: I was only in denom for 3 months, then the Lord moved me to 2 more non-denoms for a total of about 2 years, so I don't really know what they are doing these days, but I do know that water baptism is important. I know this because I had put off doing it immediately because the church I was going to didn't have any coming up for months.
So 3 months after my conversion, I was led to a church in a converted barn, that "just happened" to have the most anointed man in this area of the State. In all my visiting other churches with friends and acquaintances, I never saw anyone move as effortlessly in the gifts of the Spirit as he did. So since God really used him in the gifts of the Spirit, this was to be my introduction to them. He left me in this church about a year, before moving me on.
I had an appointment to talk to one of the leaders who invited me to be baptized there that day, even though I was not a "member". It was actually a body where God had raised up five 5 fold together. I know of no other like it. Anyway, I politely refused 3 times, then we had prayer before I was to leave, and I decided while praying to go ahead and get it done. As soon as I said the words that I wanted to get baptized, the heaven's opened, so to speak, and the Lord let me know He had brought me there.
I shared this before I think a long time ago, but I think it is worthy to be shared again, (if only because I need to remember it too), as it shows that God is in control of our lives, even when we don't know Him. Anyway, I was around 10 years old and I had a very vivid dream; so vivid I tried to open my window and go out it to see the man I dreamed of, after it was over and I was awake. In the dream I saw a man in the road outside my bedroom. He had on a white robe that glowed, and like a long silver looking vest over it that also glowed. He was reading a book, never looked up from it, and all I somehow knew about him was that he was going up to the stars (realm of Spirit).
I begged to go with him, but I heard what I assumed was his voice, say, "Not now, I'll come back for you when you're older. Not now, I'll come back for you when you're older", in the kindest, most loving, voice I had ever heard. This man in the dream had an unusual attribute to me as a child, he had a ring of snow white hair that circled each ear caused by where he was bald on top. And he wore glasses. I had cried so much in my begging to go, that I had soaked my flannel nightgown on my chest. I kept saying, "You can't leave me here, I don't belong here!" I thought that was really a weird thing for me to say, and I remembered this dream all my life, because it was so real.
So flash forward 19 years, and I am in a man's office, and just prayed with him and told him I would go ahead and get baptized in water as the Word dictates. The second I said it, I was "caught up" for lack of a better description, not hearing or seeing anything around me, but instead seeing the dream of a 10 year old little girl, and hearing the now familiar Lord's voice say to me, "See? I told you I'd come back for you when you were older!"
Stunned, is an understatement. I don't know which one of us was more stunned, me or the man who had prayed with me, who had now backed away, releasing my apparently frozen-in-time hands, realizing I was staring straight ahead not responding to a thing he said. When I was "with it" again, he asked me what just happened to me. I thought before answering and told the Lord, "I really liked this elderly man, Lord, and he's going to think me a loon and write me off."
So, I said, "I'm know you're probably going to think I'm crazy, but I have to tell you this dream I had when I was 10, because you were in it."
And I did, and he told me that if I had come in 2 weeks sooner he would not have believed me, but a woman he was counseling came in 2 weeks before and told him of a dream she had and she described the very same robes as I did. The man before me, was the man in my dream. Our God is awesome beyond words, and He has purposed each one of us in this hour, to be a vessel of honor for Him, that we might be a light unto the "nations" that don't know Him. Blessings....
Not to rain on anyones parade, but ny experiances with baptism were kind of the opposite. When the Lord drew me near, I started a bible study with a friend.The pastor of the study kept telling me he would baptize me but never got around to it. A few years later in my spiritual growth I encountered an apostolic who believed you were only saved when you were baptized in the name of Jesus( as opposed to the father, son and holy spirit. A pointless amd meaningless debate, but it's what they belive). That messed with me so bad it had me in tears. He showed me scripture to tell me I was'nt truly "saved". I'd had enough and decided my wife was good enough to baptize me in our bathtub. And she did. Sometime later I we joined another church. They were having a church picnic and were baptizing that day. I had told my then pastor that I had already been baptized, and he pretty much told me the way I did it wasn't good enough. So after God awakened me to his truths and UR, I realized that His words are spirit and they are life. We will not get anywhere spiritually unless we are baptized by fire and spirit. The physical emmersion represents the spiritual emmersion that takes place. I find nothing wrong with those who want to still do it. But is it essential to our spirit? No.
Grace and peace
I was never baptised.
:cloud9: Well, I would say that's between you all and the Father. Is it essential? That depends on how you see this. When Jesus came to the river Jordan for John to baptize Him, John protested that he had need of Jesus to baptize him. Jesus replied that it was necessary to fulfill all righteousness, and submitted to John's baptism. I consider it, then, not as a doctrine of a particular church denom, but a directive from the Father, since Jesus said He only did that which He saw His Father do. My :2c: Blessings....
But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.
I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..
So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?
Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.
Quote from: sparrow on March 19, 2009, 04:16:05 AM
But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.
I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..
So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?
Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.
As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism. For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ. Now, I see it as much more. I see it as an initiation into the Christian community. And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ. I also think that many take it too lightly. I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community. Again, this is just my opinion.
Quote from: Jerm on March 19, 2009, 05:35:52 AM
As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism. For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ. Now, I see it as much more. I see it as an initiation into the Christian community. And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ. I also think that many take it too lightly. I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community. Again, this is just my opinion.
But what public? And how would people know you were baptised unless you TOLD them you were? Wouldn't it just be the same thing to say "I'm a follower of Christ."
What is the "christian community"?
I mean... like I said, I've never been baptised. I'm part of THIS community... most of the people here are followers of Christ.
I really do want to understand why some think baptism is important. (I'm not saying it is or it isn't..) I'm not asking my questions to try to sound like a smart aleck.. :grin: It may come across that way, but trust me... I truly am just trying to get info.
Quote from: sparrow on March 19, 2009, 04:16:05 AM
But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.
I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..
So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?
Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.
Sparrow I think you can find dozens different answer on internet. All conflicting.
Suprise... for some it's sure you goto an eternal hell if you don't get baptized. (by immersion)
Don't pin me down on the exact reasons but remeber "Born twice, die once. Born once, die twice"
Baptism represents the second birth. Without it you die in the second death = eternal hell.
I spend quite some time figuring out what the Bible says about it. Every vision is backed up by scripture. But very different. As said some see water baptism as 100% needed; yet others say that switched to baptism in the HS the moment Jesus died. (or something similar)
but what is it needed FOR?
:cloud9: Understand I didn't think it was that important prior to doing either, which is why I hadn't sought out somewhere else to have it done. It was what the Lord did that convinced me of it's importance. I think it falls in with confessing Him before men, as far as our NT understanding goes, but the water baptism of John was for the repentance from dead works.
That's why the baptism that was to come next, the HG baptism, does the works, because these works are not "dead", but initiated by the living Spirit of God. One baptism prepared you for the next one. And truthfully, once I read that Jesus said it was necessary for ALL righteousness, that settled it for me. Blessings.....
Great conversation guys . . . great questions as well.
There is much to be said about what we consider to be common activities that actually have much more profound purposes than what our physical eyes, and natural understanding can comprehend. I have been baptized several times throughout several different stages of my life. The first time was because it was expected . . .I was a teenager at the time and would offend people had I said no. I wasn't really crazy about it because it was before I was anointed and equipped to speak in front of people . . but I did it. It was in a church baptistry. The second time was by choice. I didn't "have" to because I already did . .but I chose to because there was a huge transformation in my life and for me, it brought closure to my previous Christian experience. That was in a church baptistry also.
Since becoming a Pastor . . .our church doesn't have a baptistry, so we go down to the city park and do it in the river at a boat dock. And being involved in both the church baptistry and the river . . .I much MUCH prefer the river. The proclamation to the church that I've had a transformation just doesn't cut it for me anymore. The church congregation is not the public . . .the first time we did this in the river, we had members taking pictures . . .they didn't use the newer digital cameras, they still had the old . . .and when they had the pictures developed . . .their camera picked up some amazing things that the naked eye did not. There were lights, colored beams and blinding silouttes throughout the whole baptismal process. One had a neon green beam coming out of the heavens and in to me as I was just about to baptize a lady.
What is the purpose? On our side of the veil, two things really . . one is . . .you do it in obedience to the voice in your heart encouraging you to do so . . .for me, that is Christ working in you both to will and to do his good pleasure. Secondly . . you get wet. That's about it. But spiritually, there are things happening with and in us that go beyond our understanding.
When Jesus did it . . .it wasn't any river, but it was the Jordan . . which means "descender/descending" which is connected to death. And this is the same river that stopped flowing as soon as the feet of the priests stepped in the water . .and it backed up all the way to a city called Adam. In it's entirety, Jesus was illustrating to us the work that he was doing that brought redemption in this bloodline that we inherited all the way back to Adam . . . and as we are still in his image, we to allow ourselves to be fully submerged in the river to indicate that our flesh nature is dead and buried . . .and as we're raised up, we are proclaiming the great resurrection of our Lord to not just the people that are passing by . . but when you're dealing with the spirit realm, communication travels far beyond natural vision.
I agree that many churches have deformed the original purpose of this sacred thing Jesus did. I agree that it's still an important part of the work of the cross in us. Whether you say "in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" or "in Jesus name" is a petty issue that people have inflated to be a complete distraction and have left themselves powerless. But also note, once the baptism took place, the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness . . .it was the first step of a process that equipped Jesus for his ministry . . and I believe it's the same for us as well. It's simply a step of obedience that is part of the process that leads us to being equipped to ministering to others more effectively
:cloud9: Amen Nathan.....Great post and that was awesome about the pictures and just confirms what I already knew by experience; God does something with us thru it. The green beam of light caught my attention, too. Green is the color of life, as the HS taught me. Blessings....
QuoteAnd this is the same river that stopped flowing as soon as the feet of the priests stepped in the water . .and it backed up all the way to a city called Adam.
awsome never heard this, where did you get it??
chuckt
Quote from: NathanIn it's entirety, Jesus was illustrating to us the work that he was doing that brought redemption in this bloodline that we inherited all the way back to Adam . . . and as we are still in his image, we to allow ourselves to be fully submerged in the river to indicate that our flesh nature is dead and buried . . .and as we're raised up, we are proclaiming the great resurrection of our Lord to not just the people that are passing by . . but when you're dealing with the spirit realm, communication travels far beyond natural vision.
The river heaped up in one direction and was cut off [by covenant] in the other.
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
:cloud9: Amen Molly; if you think about it one way, walking thru the "cut river" was in itself as a covenant being cut, just as the burning furnace walked thru the two pieces in the OT.
No covenant is in effect without the shedding of blood; they cut covenants by cutting the animal in half then walking thru the pieces, in essence saying if either of us break the covenant it will require blood to satisfy it, ie. the same will be done to the person breaking it. And of course, man broke covenant, but God who is the God of the covenant and therefore takes the responsibility of keeping covenant, Himself provided the blood to satisfy it (Jesus). Blessings...
found it...josh 3:16 :hithere: :URWelcome:
16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.
--Josh 3
"That the waters"
H4325
מים
mayim
mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water; figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, semen: - + piss, wasting, water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).
"which came down"
H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): - X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.
[from] "above"
H4605
מעל
ma‛al
mah'-al
From H5927; properly the upper part, used only adverbially with prefix upward, above, overhead, from the top, etc.: - above, exceeding (-ly), forward, on (X very) high, over, up (-on, -ward), very.
"stood"
H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.
[and] "rose up"
H6965
קוּם
qûm
koom
A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).
"upon a"
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
"heap"
H5067
נד
nêd
nade
From H5110 in the sense of piling up; a mound, that is, wave: - heap.
[very] "far"
H7368
רחק
râchaq
raw-khak'
A primitive root; to widen (in any direction), that is, (intransitively) recede or (transitively) remove (literally or figuratively, of place or relation): - (a, be, cast, drive, get, go, keep [self], put, remove, be too, [wander], withdraw) far (away, off), loose, X refrain, very, (be) a good way (off).
...from the city Adam..
THAT . . .will preach itself!!!
this is all way to gnostic for me :laughhand:
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 06:07:13 PM
THAT . . .will preach itself!!!
Praise the LORD! :bgdance:
[very far]
"from the city"
H5892
עיר ער עיר
‛îyr ‛âr ‛âyar
eer, awr, aw-yar'
From H5782 a city (a place guarded by waking or a watch) in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post): - Ai [from margin], city, court [from margin], town.
[Adam]
[that is]
"beside"
H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
H6654
צד
tsad
tsad
Contracted from an unused root meaning to sidle off; a side; figuratively an adversary: - (be-) side.
"Zaretan"
H6868
צרדתה צרדה
tserêdâh tserêdâthâh
tser-ay-daw', tser-ay-daw'-thaw
Apparently from an unused root meaning to pierce; puncture; Tseredah, a place in Palestine: - Zereda, Zeredathah.
[The court of Adam is from the side of the one pierced?]
Quote from: chuckt on March 19, 2009, 06:08:58 PM
this is all way to gnostic for me :laughhand:
:happygrin:
Fine Post Nate :icon_flower:
Quote from: sparrow on March 19, 2009, 05:54:00 AM
Quote from: Jerm on March 19, 2009, 05:35:52 AM
As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism. For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ. Now, I see it as much more. I see it as an initiation into the Christian community. And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ. I also think that many take it too lightly. I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community. Again, this is just my opinion.
But what public? And how would people know you were baptised unless you TOLD them you were? Wouldn't it just be the same thing to say "I'm a follower of Christ."
What is the "christian community"?
I mean... like I said, I've never been baptised. I'm part of THIS community... most of the people here are followers of Christ.
I really do want to understand why some think baptism is important. (I'm not saying it is or it isn't..) I'm not asking my questions to try to sound like a smart aleck.. :grin: It may come across that way, but trust me... I truly am just trying to get info.
Good grief, what a smart aleck!!!! (Just kidding sparrow :thumbsup:) These are some very good points you've brought up. I think that this harkens back to the Early Church. For them, baptism was their way of saying "I'm a follower of Christ." And Christian Community is just another term for the Church. Also, I think I might have given the impression that someone who isn't baptized is not a true follower of Christ or apart of the Christian community which is not what I was trying to get at (Sorry bout that.) Still, I do think that baptism is important because of what it has traditionally meant in the Church. Does this help any or have I talked in one big circle?
I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:54:39 PM
I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.
Ditto :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on March 19, 2009, 10:54:39 PM
I'd also like to throw out there that I do agree with the idea that the baptism is not required to receive salvation . . .but I do consider it a bit of a red flag if someone becomes adamant about "not" wanting to do it . . .because again, "if" Christ is in me, he is the one causing me to "want" and to "do" his desires . . .and this is one of those desires that he set the standard for . .so it would only stand to reason that as he lives in me, that "I" would want the same things as what he wants.
What if Christ is in a person but doesn't necessarily cause that person to want to be baptised?
I am really just trying to understand this.
I'm not sure I understand why it would be a red flag? Like, you mean you think someone is being disobedient? What if they don't feel the urge to do it, other than other human beings telling them it is something that they should do? Wouldn't it be wrong for that person to just do something they don't feel led to do...?
Can you baptize yourself? Because I may have done that before. in a pool and in a bathtub... as a symbolic type thing to myself.
First . . .God does use people to speak to other people . . .that's what the river that flows out of us is . . .it's coming from out of our core . .through our mouths and hands and feet and any other tool he so chooses to use.
Having said that . . . no one should be pushing you into anything. Encouragment, sure, but insisting . .that's up to you. I think the more pertinant question is . . . are you willing to do it?
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 01:08:42 AM
First . . .God does use people to speak to other people . . .that's what the river that flows out of us is . . .it's coming from out of our core . .through our mouths and hands and feet and any other tool he so chooses to use.
Having said that . . . no one should be pushing you into anything. Encouragment, sure, but insisting . .that's up to you. I think the more pertinant question is . . . are you willing to do it?
Hey Nathan... I absolutely know that God uses people to speak to other people. I'm not sure why you are mentioning that? He's used me a bunch of times, and I've heard God through other people countless times. What does that have to do with baptism?
No-one is pushing me into anything....
You said your question to me is "Are you willing to do it?"
My question is... WHY do it...? Did you see my other questions?
Does anyone here understand what I'm saying...
and can anyone answer the questions in my last post?
:HeartThrob:,
sparrow
Sorry . . .I meant to touch on the other questions and didn't. But the reason I stated what I did about God speaking through others was because you mentioned "What if they don't feel the urge to do it, other than other human beings telling them it is something that they should do?
I took that as others insisting it's something you must do.
I hesitate to think that Christ would set a standard and then not at some point in one's relationship with him, not move them to have a desire to follow the standard. So to answer that question, I'd simply say no, I don't think he would ignore the possiblity . . .he's no respector of persons . . .again, just my opinions here.
As to "why" I'd respond with 'simple obedience'. It's not always about us having to understand it all "before" acting or receiving on what is being offered. Faith is the opposite of that actually.
And as far as baptizing yourself . . . this just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength. There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others. But the bottom line is . . .I did it because I felt he wanted me to do it . . .the invitation often comes "through" the opportunity . . in other words . . .when someone announces there is going to be a baptism coming up . . .the Holy Spirit uses that to spark an interest in people to respond to it.
Not always of course . . .there are also many times people will go looking for someone to baptize them. But again, there's no pressure either way. It's like falling in love . . .how do you know it's real? When it happens . . you just know.
Ok, I guess I understand what you're saying.
I suppose I just have had a different experience. There is no baptisms going on around me. I do not attend a building church. It's not something that is in my face...ever.
Quotethis just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength. There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.
But see... I don't get that. Why would it be an avoidance? If someone doesn't feel LED...to do something that other people are saying they REALLY SHOULD DO... how would that be avoidance? It seems that would be the opposite. The person is trusting in God to lead them and not trusting in people. If someone tells me something and then God shows me the same thing...then I listen..my ears open up..
Just because there are no instances in scripture...does that mean it's necessarily wrong?
What if a person was on a desserted island? and no-one could baptize the person?
What then?
I know it's not about getting wet. To me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?
hi everyone... i've been baptized 3 times
first time, my parents sprinkled water on me with the pastor i was only months old(this filled the rquirement for my parents and the reformed church they attend)obviosly i had no choice.
second time,my wife and i wanted to join a mennonite church.in order to do this i had to have "beleivers baptism".now this got my goat!...i had already done my confession of faith(reformed church theology,allowing you to be a full member).i battled all the pastors on this one!why,why,why do i have to make another public faith confession through baptism!
i started battling the spirit on this one as well,saying to myself these are man's ways.why should i submit?!
then i sensed in my spirit," do this unto your Father,this pleases me".then the man thing fell off and i became excited to do this for my Father instead
just before i went under(in front of the very large church).i testified that" there are many voices calling but i choose His only"...wow!!! it became just between me and my Father!
the third time i was in israel and ...yup! i was baptized in the jordan river(more a stream now,with really big fish in it)
walking in the same steps as jesus,i wanted to testify again.i got some great pictures as well of me coming out of the water .you see the joy on my face...even typing now i feel the joy again!!!
so i guess ...do it for your Father ...He loves you!
blessings :icon_king:
Quotethis just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength. There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.
I had my wife do it. And this was after seeking for someone to do it, then having all kinds of doctrines thrown at me while trying to do it. It may have been a blessing for most of you. But my blessing came a few years later when I realized God was showing me that all those things were to strengthen me. I was torn about not being baptized. And who is officially "authorized" to baptize anyway? What makes my wife less qualified then a minister whom's doctrines I do not agree with? I do not plan on doing it again. I feel very much past that stage.
Grace and peace
Quote from: sparrow on March 20, 2009, 02:23:07 AM
Quotethis just seems to be an avoidance of following after him with all my heart, soul and strength. There are no places in Scripture indicating where people baptized themselves . . .it's not about getting wet . .it's about proclaiming what's already been done "in" you . .so you get the attention of others.
But see... I don't get that. Why would it be an avoidance? If someone doesn't feel LED...to do something that other people are saying they REALLY SHOULD DO... how would that be avoidance? It seems that would be the opposite. The person is trusting in God to lead them and not trusting in people. If someone tells me something and then God shows me the same thing...then I listen..my ears open up..
Just because there are no instances in scripture...does that mean it's necessarily wrong?
What if a person was on a desserted island? and no-one could baptize the person?
What then?
I know it's not about getting wet. To me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?
I'm not trying to state what is right or wrong . . .I'm just sharing how I see it to be for me. My "avoidance" comment was stemming from the idea that baptism is a public proclamation .. . it is also a submission . . .by baptizing myself, I'm sidestepping both of those major points. Yes, it's a personal experience, but the purpose of it was to have it done publically. Let others be a part of this wonderful experience that has happened in you. Let them see the freedom that has come, the joy that is now present, the bondages that have been broken . . .being baptized in private . .for me . . .defeats the whole purpose.
Secondly, the submission comes as I "let" the hands of another bury me . . . Jesus "willingly" gave his life . . .he totally submitted himself to the hands of others as they took his life from him. Jesus didn't take his own life . . .he didn't baptize himself . . .but he willingly turned his life over to the hands of another. And he didn't resurrect himself either . . .which is the symbolism of us coming up out of the watter . . .if I baptize myself, I am taking my life in my own hands, submitting to no others, and I'm burying myself . . .and then I'm resurrecting myself. It may sound innocent, but it over-rides the symoblism that baptism represents.
And that's why we do it . . .for the symbolism of it . . .not because it's another rule we "must" follow. But there was so much that was beneath the surface of what was going on in that process. I have found that even praying for . . .laying hands on and praying for another is much easier and more comfortable for me than to have someone lay hands on and pray over me . . . and I believe that has much to do with the act of submitting myself over into the hands of another. It's a form of humility as well.
Again . . . the deserted island thing is more of an exception to the rule kind of thing. Think of the Etheopian that Phillip was ministering to . . . once the truth of salvation was illuminated to him . . .the opportunity to follow the established pattern presented itself and there was a great manifestation of God's glory because of it.
I wonder if the water baptism doesn't get misrepresented in many churches . . .we do it because that's just what you're supposed to do . . . and that's great that you walk in the obedience, but there's no revelation that goes with it. You're just responding to the pastor's expectations. But if we took the time and waited upon the Lord to show us why it "is" so important, I think there'd be even more of a willingness to respond . .as well as much less judgment to those who don't respond.
Taking communion is the same thing . . there are many who hear that "if anyone is unworthy . . ." part and they immediately feel guilt from hidden secrets in their lives that they elect to not partake in the communion . . .when just the opposite is what was intended when that was stated. If anyone should be taking communion . . it should "especially" be those that felt they were unworthy . . .communion is an opportunity for healing . .to pass up on that would be a detrimental thing.
Quote from: SparrowTo me, when I was first getting to know God.... I immersed myself several times in a pool by myself and thought about how He sees us as we are, as his children, and back then, I was washing away the "old" me. It was proclamation to myself and to God. I was thinking about Jesus on the cross, etc. It wasn't about anyone else but me and God. So what's wrong with that?
I think you and God have a very special relationship. :cloud9:
Quote from: sparrow on March 19, 2009, 04:16:05 AM
So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Quoted out of context? I'm sure someone will inform me :laughing7:
well, born of water is the act of repentance mere symbolism of
the actual spiritual events occurring[John's baptism]
then the disciples baptized in Jesus name..signifying faith
in the son of God......and then Jesus baptized with holy
spirit a token of the salvation that is assured.
So, if you have turned from the way that is not good..
and have professed faith in Jesus Christ....
and received the Holy spirit...it seems to me you would
be right were you need to be....
Seems to me the ACTUAL SPIRITUAL meaning is more
important than the symbols.
I've been baptized three times myself...first Jesus
baptized me when I was 17.....then I joined a very legalistic
church at 30 ..and they baptized me
.then 7 years ago I baptized myself in the lake all by myself
as a re-dedication to Him ALONE after I was called out of
that legalistic church
QuoteExcept a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Interesting. We are all born of water, as any mother who knows the water breaks before the baby is born can attest.
But we must be born of water
and Spirit to enter the kingdom.
If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Assuming "Holy Ghost" means exactly the same as "Spirit" people are baptized with Holy Ghost and water.
But Luke also mentions Fire. Is the fire an extra component or just an extra name for the same thing?
Like: Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit = Spirit = Fire?
If Fire=Holy Ghost then LoF simply could mean baptizm with fire... :flamebreath:
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
--Acts 1
"power"
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
--Acts 2
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 09:46:19 AM
If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.
Yes, born twice. Or, born again.
[born]
"again"G509
ἄνωθεν
anōthenan'-o-then
From G507;
from above by analogy
from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. --John 3
The water represents the mother giving birth to you.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.The river [Jordan] represents crossing over from death to life.
JordanH3381
ירד
yâradyaw-rad'
A primitive root;
to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally
to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): - X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.
Quote from: Molly on March 22, 2009, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 09:46:19 AM
If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.
Yes, born twice. Or, born again.
Three times...
Water+Water+HS=3
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 12:09:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 22, 2009, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 09:46:19 AM
If it is that simple why even mention it? I mean everyone is born from water if you look at it that way.
And why where people baptized in the river (water)?
That would mean 2 water baptizms.
Yes, born twice. Or, born again.
Three times...
Water+Water+HS=3
:thumbsup: :icon_king:
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
Yeah it adds up to 3....
But I would have expected fire.
Fire+Water+HS
Not being born twice in this life means kicked into a lake of fire. Not a lake of water....
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 12:29:01 PM
Yeah it adds up to 3....
But I would have expected fire.
Fire+Water+HS
Not being born twice in this life means kicked into a lake of fire. Not a lake of water....
water, water [born again], fire
Fire can give warmth or it can burn. It can give life [light] or it can kill.
Luke 20:18
Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
You cannot even see it unless you are born again [ water].
John 3:4-5 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The verse seems to link the second time with Spirit not water.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 12:47:09 PM
John 3:4-5 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The verse seems to link the second time with Spirit not water.
Yes.
born [water]--we are all children of God.
born again [water] -- You can see the kingdom of God
baptized with the HS [fire]--You can enter into the kingdom of God.
26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.--John 15
QuoteThe verse seems to link the second time with Spirit not water.
For Jesus both happened at the same time.
But, for the disciples, it was two separate events. They had to go to Jerusalem and wait for the HS.
I don't think necessarily both water [born again] and Spirit have to happen at the same time.
Another way to look at it
Father [born], Son [Mother] [born again], Holy Spirit [Power of God]=You are now a son.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 22, 2009, 12:29:01 PM
Yeah it adds up to 3....
But I would have expected fire.
Fire+Water+HS
Not being born twice in this life means kicked into a lake of fire. Not a lake of water....
The Holy Spirit is fire.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire...--Acts 2
But, to Jesus it appeared as a dove. This is the reconciliation with God. For us, the Holy Spirit is a comforter and a teacher--a fire which gives warmth and light. But, I wouldn't want to be faced with the Holy Spirit without Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For me, it's all an alignment with the tabernacle. . .which is patterned after Christ himself. It's dimensional.
But the water baptism is the elementary level in our relationship with the Father . . .it's the outward manifestation of an inward transformation. It's as public as it is intimate.
Spirit baptism is the preparation for ministry . . .which doesn't just mean church, religious activity . . .any calling God has appointed us into would certainly come under this particular category. The baptism of the Spirit is to reinforce and strengthen the previous steps and prepares us for the next. The spirit baptism gives us power to "be" witnesses. It's also where the gifts of the spirit operate from . . .for the purpose of buiding up, edifying and uplifting the church . . again, not a denomination or specific gathering of people, but church overall. . .the body of Christ.
Fire baptism, for me, is the deepest experience of the three. It's not as celebrative as the first, not as exhilerating as the second . . .it can even be a taxing experience . . .as this is the place where soul gets divided from spirit . . .where rubber meets road . .where carnality is purged and pruned and natures of personalities change drastically and profoundly. Where grace supercedes observations and intimacy is most relevant and desired.
In the tabernacle the first fire we experience is the altar of sacrifice, it's where sin is forgiven . . .the next fire is the candlestick, where the bread of life is illuminated . . .and the last fire is the fire of incense . . .it's where our praises and prayers are transformed from natural activity into spiritual reality.
The baptism of fire is the least preached, but the most desired of God for the church to experience. You can't have the baptism of spirit until after the baptism of water . . .which is to say you can't be spirit filled if you're not saved in the first place . .and as the order goes . . .you can't be baptized in fire until you're first baptized in spirit . . one prepares you for the next . .it's all a process of the relationship we have with the Father.