The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[Doc]

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can  :bigGrin:

The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will".  It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world".  The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan.  That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin.  The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will.  This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.

God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin

Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.

Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.

Not that I disagree with you, but some thoughts come to mind. What was Adam's purpose then, since God foreknew what would happen? The other thought I have is, when man through disobedience brought evil into the world that seems to me to imply that evil "pre-existed" somewhere to be able to be brought in to the world...

[Doc]

Well there is another possibility for evil.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In any case,  we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.

Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess.   Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into.  If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.

Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.

Otherwise I see it like this.

I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good,  but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?

No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.

In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.


That was one of the critisism over the song  "What if God was one of us"    Perhaps this existance has one end  "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.

Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.


I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.

Just some things to think about.

Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well?  I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours.  I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before.  I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.

Sure, come on out, the view is great.... :thumbsup:

[pneuma]

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can  :bigGrin:

The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will".  It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world".  The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan.  That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin.  The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will.  This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.

God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin

Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.

Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.

Not that I disagree with you, but some thoughts come to mind. What was Adam's purpose then, since God foreknew what would happen? The other thought I have is, when man through disobedience brought evil into the world that seems to me to imply that evil "pre-existed" somewhere to be able to be brought in to the world...

God knowing what would happen and planning it to happen are world apart imo Doc, I can know that if a child take a car they are going to get into an accident, but just because I know that does not mean I planned for the child to take the car and get into the accident.

I agree sin existed before it was brought into the world Doc, as satan fell a long time before Adam did.

[pneuma]

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

Here is what I believe, I don't believe God had to plan evil, sin, disobedience,  because  God already knew that it had to a part of existance.   Unless of course God can be surprised.

What he may have planned was giving us a gift of life, knowing the path that "must" happen, "knowing" we will end up in perfection.  So his wisdom planned for all the things that had to happen once the process of life started.

There is nothing that will stop that process.   I think why we read of God being grieved is because God empathizes with what we are going through and knows its the only way, even he could not make a plan for our perfection any other way.   Otherwise a God of love would have done so.

Hi Paul a lot of people see it that way bro, But I will have to respectfully disagree

[pneuma]

Well there is another possibility for evil.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In any case,  we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.

Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess.   Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into.  If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.

Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.

Otherwise I see it like this.

I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good,  but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?

No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.

In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.


That was one of the critisism over the song  "What if God was one of us"    Perhaps this existance has one end  "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.

Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.


I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.

Just some things to think about.

Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well?  I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours.  I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before.  I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.

Hi guys here is something you might want to look at in your study

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind.

Not saying this is so just a thought.

[Doc]

That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as  the adversary (Satan).

[pneuma]

That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as  the adversary (Satan).

Doc I don't disagree with that senerio, I just also see satan as a spirit being.

[claypot]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

[pneuma]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.

Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen,  but did not design it to happen directly by his hand?   Was God caught off gaurd?   Not sure what your getting at here.

[Cardinal]

This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts. 

:cloud9: Interesting then that He showed Moses His backside when He asked to see His glory? Blessings...

[pneuma]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.

Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen,  but did not design it to happen directly by his hand?   Was God caught off gaurd?   Not sure what your getting at here.

Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.

No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.

[pneuma]

This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts. 

:cloud9: Interesting then that He showed Moses His backside when He asked to see His glory? Blessings...

Ya but remmeber that was BEFORE Moses had curcumsised his SON.

[Cardinal]

I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before.  I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.

:cloud9: I believe that too, Nathan. He told me when I first came to the Lord and I was starting to have those "aha" moments, that I wasn't really learning anything, I WAS REMEMBERING IT. Of course, at the time, I had to keep that to myself primarily in order to avoid the heretic BarBQ  :mshock:  Now I don't much care anymore, I'm like, "What? You forgot the cole slaw?"  :laughing7: Blessings.....

[Cardinal]

Ya but remmeber that was BEFORE Moses had curcumsised his SON.

:cloud9: Cool, ok, I HEARD that..... :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.

Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen,  but did not design it to happen directly by his hand?   Was God caught off gaurd?   Not sure what your getting at here.

Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.

No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.

We are not too far off then concerning that then.  

I just do not see the righteousness in creating us, knowing what we would do and the misery we would cause with the ability to do it another way in an instant.  

What ever our mistakes rightly are, and where that blame is rightly made,  if it was possible to create us and perfect us without that, then thats what should have happened and while some could say Gods ways aren't my ways.  Perhaps then humanity is doomed to serve a monster after all.  

Whether God has the right to do whatever he wants doesn't mean a loving God would do such a thing if it could be prevented.  Most arguments center around free will being a gift, because then we are individuals and choose and rightly love God, but then we are back to square one.   If God can do anything then he could of perfected us with those abilities without all of the misery it takes to learn what it is.

[Cardinal]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.

:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....

[Doc]

That might be worth looking into, pneuma. Although I think it might take me somewhere you wouldn't agree with; namely Adam (flesh) as  the adversary (Satan).

Doc I don't disagree with that senerio, I just also see satan as a spirit being.

Makes sense to me, since we are both (or still dwell in) spirit and flesh.

[Taffy]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought

:icon_flower: like wise Bro...a Going HOME :icon_flower:

[Doc]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.

:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....

Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?

[Nathan]

Could it be we are the angels that kept not our first estate? after all Adam is reflective of ALL mankind. Not saying this is so just a thought.

:cloud9: Bro, that's another thing I had dropped into my spirit one day. I shared it with one net friend at the time, and about 2 weeks later she excitedly sent me a link to another forum she chanced upon, where a poster said, "Am I crazy or are we the fallen angels?" Not saying I understand it all, but that's what I heard, and I believe He always provides a second witness somehow. Blessings....

Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?

This is so interesting . . . in Revelation when it speaks of the seven stars being the angels of the seven churches. . .it's referring to us there . .so why would that not also fit with this setting also . . .very interesting.

[Cardinal]

Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?

:cloud9: Well, I had an interesting dream once, that I think He was using to get me to see this. It was one scene really. I saw an angel about 8 ft tall with wings, standing next to me and it had fire red hair. It told me an instruction from the Lord. I looked closer at the angel and thought there was something about it that looked familiar. Then I realized, it was "ME", IF I had red hair and was 8 ft. tall.  :mshock: Blessings.....

[pneuma]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

Sorry, my bad. Pneuma, this is your quote is it not?

Yep my qoute bro, and as you can see (if you have followed this thread) no I don't beleive it was a perfectly planned event of God.

Do you think it was perfectly planned for knowing it was going to happen,  but did not design it to happen directly by his hand?   Was God caught off gaurd?   Not sure what your getting at here.

Knowing what will take place and planning for it to take place are worlds apart imo bro.

No God was not aken off guard, He knew it would happen because He gave man the free will to make a choice. That why He took the responsiblity for mans fall, sending forth His son to correct MAN MISTAKE.

We are not too far off then concerning that then.  

I just do not see the righteousness in creating us, knowing what we would do and the misery we would cause with the ability to do it another way in an instant.  

What ever our mistakes rightly are, and where that blame is rightly made,  if it was possible to create us and perfect us without that, then thats what should have happened and while some could say Gods ways aren't my ways.  Perhaps then humanity is doomed to serve a monster after all.  

Whether God has the right to do whatever he wants doesn't mean a loving God would do such a thing if it could be prevented.  Most arguments center around free will being a gift, because then we are individuals and choose and rightly love God, but then we are back to square one.   If God can do anything then he could of perfected us with those abilities without all of the misery it takes to learn what it is.

The way I see it bro is the obedience is the only way to perfection, thus God created us with the ability(freewill) to be obedient unto perfection. God is free bro, so in order for us to be like Him He had to create us also free.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The way I see it bro is the obedience is the only way to perfection, thus God created us with the ability(freewill) to be obedient unto perfection. God is free bro, so in order for us to be like Him He had to create us also free.

Yes, even God could not have done it any other way.   Which indeed is why in his wisdom he was not fooled concerning anything we do, but he planned for it to prevent failure.

[Taffy]

Hmm. Wow. Any more thoughts on this topic?

:cloud9: Well, I had an interesting dream once, that I think He was using to get me to see this. It was one scene really. I saw an angel about 8 ft tall with wings, standing next to me and it had fire red hair. It told me an instruction from the Lord. I looked closer at the angel and thought there was something about it that looked familiar. Then I realized, it was "ME", IF I had red hair and was 8 ft. tall.  :mshock: Blessings.....

an interesting DREAM ONCE?..but there again ya did say ya Math was Bad :icon_king: