The Potter and His clay & El Elyon

[pneuma]

A friend who read these two articles on my blog suggested I post them here for others to read. Hope you also enjoy them.




The Potter and His Clay

Jeremiah 18:1-17
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.  4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter:

A funny thing about clay is that it has a memory of its own and always wants to return to its clay form. So when one is fashioning a vase the clay tries to fall back into its natural form. Thus being marred in the hands of the potter. It is NOT the potter who mars the clay in his hands, it is the clay trying to return to clay that mars itself. The potter wants to make a vase, the clay wants to return to its natural form.

So if we look at man who is formed from the dust of the earth and placed into the garden to be fashioned into Gods image and likeness, we can see the clay in the potters hands.
Now through mans own disobedience man marred himself in the potters hands and returned to the dust/clay from whence he was taken. Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now lets look at those same scriptures out of the Septuagint.

18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:

And we know that Adam fell by disobedience. Thus the potter did NOT mar the vessel
the vessel fell and marred itself.


so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 

Thus the potter takes up the same clay and makes a NEW vessel out of it.
We are a NEW creation in Christ Jesus.

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Thus proving that all vessels pass through the fire, for without the baking process the vessel will always retain it's own will and turn to it's old form.





El Elyon

The different views of God shown in scripture.

The view of God is that of the MOST HIGH God or EL Elyon,  is the highest view of God recorded in scripture, it shows forth His eternal (as in without beginning and without end) nature. Everything in this view stems from His infinite being where all things are done by Him and through Him. Everything starts with Him and ends with Him.


But that is not the only view of God recorded in scripture, we also have Elohim, Jehovah, El Shaddai (God Almighty), Adonai (Lord), El Olam (God of the ages) and Jehovah Sabaoth (Lord of Hosts).


When God deals with man in time He expresses Himself by that name, which is El Olam (God of the ages). This view is how God deals with man throughout every age, and He does not change from this view until man is outside of time or time is no more.

In each view we see a different aspect of who God is, in one we see God in His creative works, in another we see God in covenant to man etc.

In each of these views we see something expressed of El Elyon (Most High God) because El Elyon is the overshadowing principal of all other views of God. For it shows God before the beginning and it shows Him after all time comes to an end. It show Him before creation, before covenant, before the different ages etc. It is the highest view or aspect of God, and it shows forth LIFE which is much more then the LIFE we experience in the created LIFE, in the covenant LIFE, in the LIFE of the ages etc. Each aspect of God shown throughout scripture bring us more fully into the LIFE of the MOST HIGH GOD, EL ELYON.


God bless

[sheila]

  would it be fair to say...an unseen force[grav[e]ity had

  anything to do with the clay falling?

[pneuma]

  would it be fair to say...an unseen force[grav[e]ity had

  anything to do with the clay falling?

through deception yes, but the clay fell by it won disobedience.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts pneuma!  :thumbsup:

[trettep]

My Septuagint says in Jeremiah that it "failed".  I'm using the Apostolic Bible Polygot.

Paul

[claypot]

I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.

I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.

I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.

Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.

cp

[pneuma]

I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.

I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.

I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.

Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.

cp

Hi Clay not time to post my thoughts on God creating evil right now but will later today.

God bless

[claypot]

I totally agree that the clay falls from its own disobedience. I believe this is one way of looking at it. One angle, one facet of the whole.

I say this P man because I can't get away from the fact that God created us fallible and then put us in a situation where we can and do fall. This all seems way to intentional on Gods part. I do not say it is wrong on Gods part, just intentional.

I think even the falls of man are orchastrated by God Himself. It is all in God as it were. Evil (marring) is in total control in Gods hands. May I say that evil is a perfect work? Ouch! What I mean is is that evil in no way is out of control, it is 'within' Gods control all the time. In Him there is no darkness yet He creates darkness in one way or another.

Just thinking here. I know these cans of beans have been debated endlessly yet it is good to freshen up our minds and hearts once in a while.

cp

Hi Clay not time to post my thoughts on God creating evil right now but will later today.

God bless

Good, before you start yelling at me (just kidding Brother!) but I do want to say I don't think God creates evil as we traditionally think of creating. I might say that God 'creates' evil just because He set all in motion knowing what would happen. He gave people the abilities and opportunities to do evil. He gives life to all to perform.

I see absolutely no darkness in God. Evil, IMO, can only exist when something is created. When something is created there seems to be its opposite looming in the shadows. Heaven is when this opposite ceases to exist. Could it be evil only exists where flesh or a fleshly mindset is present? 

cp

[chuckt]

well the clay was created by God from dirt so naturally it would ""fall"" and God certianly KNEW the characteristics (sp)  of the clay.

very good topic, may i borrow it?  :happy3:

as an artist i  love this topic, and the part about the clay needing to go thru the furnace is spot on.

also the clay must be ground to powder and mixed with living water made a new lump and glazed in the fire, very awsome colors.  :Yesss:

chuckt

[claypot]

Good stuff Chuck. You say much in few words.

cp

[claypot]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

[pneuma]

well the clay was created by God from dirt so naturally it would ""fall"" and God certianly KNEW the characteristics (sp)  of the clay.

very good topic, may i borrow it?  :happy3:

as an artist i  love this topic, and the part about the clay needing to go thru the furnace is spot on.

also the clay must be ground to powder and mixed with living water made a new lump and glazed in the fire, very awsome colors.  :Yesss:

chuckt

Feel free to use anything I post bro.

[pneuma]

This is a continuation of the scriptures from Jeramiah that follow the part of the potter an His clay.


7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. 13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. 14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?  15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

Here we see God saying that because of the evil man does in disobeying His voice God himself will visit evil upon them "I make peace, and create evil".

So how is it that God who is LOVE and LOVE worketh NO evil, is said to create evil?

Or how does God create evil?

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Thus God is not working evil, He just turns His back and gives man up to the desires of their own hearts. 


Do we not see this same principle brought out here

Isaiah 54:6-17
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Septuagint

7 For a little while I left thee: but with great mercy will I have compassion upon thee. 8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Why is it God left and hid His face from them? Was it not because of disobedience?

Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17

In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present. 

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?

You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.

If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?

Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?

God bless

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well there is another possibility for evil.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In any case,  we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.

Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess.   Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into.  If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.

Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.

Otherwise I see it like this.

I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good,  but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?

No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.

In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.


That was one of the critisism over the song  "What if God was one of us"    Perhaps this existance has one end  "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.

[Nathan]

Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .

Nathan, would you say that the clay falling from the Masters hand is a perfectly planned happening? Part of the molding so to speak?

cp

It wasn't me that said that . . .I don't think I've posted anything on this thread as of yet.

[legoman]

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Wow good find pneuma!  I think that verse is the best evidence I have seen that suggests evil is the absence of good (God).  You may even change my thinking on the "problem of evil". 

How do you fit God is the one who "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph 1:11) in with this? 

Effectively God is working evil (which is part of the "all things"), by removing his presence, which allows the entity (humans, Satan, whatever) to do evil.  Yet God knows already what that entity would do and has incorporated it into His plan.  He is working it (evil) after the counsel of his own will, by turning his back.  Yet He is not the one who does evil, for God can do know evil and tempts no one.

Indirectly, of course, He is the cause of all, but not directly.

Your thoughts?

[pneuma]

Evil is not the opposite of good evil is the absence of good.

Therefore God creates evil by withdrawing His presence or turning His back. "I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity".

And we see this same principle throughout scripture, God turning His back on man because of mans disobedience, and as evil is the absence of God of good when God turns His back or withdraws His presence evil abounds.

Wow good find pneuma!  I think that verse is the best evidence I have seen that suggests evil is the absence of good (God).  You may even change my thinking on the "problem of evil". 

How do you fit God is the one who "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph 1:11) in with this? 

Effectively God is working evil (which is part of the "all things"), by removing his presence, which allows the entity (humans, Satan, whatever) to do evil.  Yet God knows already what that entity would do and has incorporated it into His plan.  He is working it (evil) after the counsel of his own will, by turning his back.  Yet He is not the one who does evil, for God can do know evil and tempts no one.

Indirectly, of course, He is the cause of all, but not directly.

Your thoughts?

Hi Leg, the aspect of God that worketh all thngs after His own will is the El Elyon aspect of God that is outside of time.

While time exist God deals with us as El Olam (God of the ages).

Thus evil is in this world of time because this world of time is NOT El Elyons world.

Jesus said I am NOT of this WORLD, Jesus was of the WORLD of El Elyon the world without time, where all things work after the counsel of His will.

Thus Jesus taught us to pray thy kingdom come thy WILL BE DONE on EARTH like it is in HEAVEN.

Not everything in this world of time is after His WILL, else Jesus taught us to pray a redundent prayer.

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

[Doc]

Well there is another possibility for evil.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In any case,  we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.

Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess.   Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into.  If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.

Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.

Otherwise I see it like this.

I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good,  but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?

No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.

In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.


That was one of the critisism over the song  "What if God was one of us"    Perhaps this existance has one end  "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.

Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.


I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.

Just some things to think about.

[legoman]

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can  :bigGrin:

The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will".  It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world".  The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan.  That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin.  The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will.  This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Doc, thats one of the aspects I am getting at when I say that God cannot do everything.  But that knowledge has no bearing on Gods sovereignty, nor does it imply that anything can become greater than God.   

It is one of the paradoxtype arguments people get into when you hear  "God is all powerful and can do anything"   But then we hear "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it"   Then out comes all the intellectuals to dance around the question.  When the answer is NO and the answer is also irrevalent at the same time.

Man will not become greater that the state of being God is in right now, no matter what rock God can;t make.

When it is said Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom,  is that fact a matter of Gods choice, or just the very state of existence that cannot be changed by God in the first place?

I believe that is the way it is and even God cannot change it.

[pneuma]

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can  :bigGrin:

The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will".  It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world".  The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan.  That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin.  The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will.  This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.

God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin

Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.

Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.

[Doc]

Doc, thats one of the aspects I am getting at when I say that God cannot do everything.  But that knowledge has no bearing on Gods sovereignty, nor does it imply that anything can become greater than God.   

It is one of the paradoxtype arguments people get into when you hear  "God is all powerful and can do anything"   But then we hear "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it"   Then out comes all the intellectuals to dance around the question.  When the answer is NO and the answer is also irrevalent at the same time.

Man will not become greater that the state of being God is in right now, no matter what rock God can;t make.

When it is said Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom,  is that fact a matter of Gods choice, or just the very state of existence that cannot be changed by God in the first place?

I believe that is the way it is and even God cannot change it.

I hear you, Paul. That was actually a discussion I got into with an atheist. I went through the scripture, and I couldn't find any description of God that actually identified Him in the original language as the equivalent of our word "omnipotent". The descriptions of Him that are typically translated as "omnipotent" are more accurately along the lines of the sense of "highest authority". In other words, the impression that I was getting from the word study was that Father God (El Elyon) has far more power and authority than any other "being" in the universe, but that descriptor does not quite translate to what we think of as "omnipotent".

But this is probably a topic for PM. I don't want to derail the thread or cause people to start getting their stakes and firewood ready.  :msealed:

[legoman]

From passed experience I know not many can swollow that understanding legoman, but hay you asked :bigGrin:

Ok, interesting take, not sure I see it that way, but I will swallow as best I can  :bigGrin:

The main point I always have to come back to in Eph 1:11 is that God "works all things after the counsel of his own will".  It doesn't say "all things in this world or that world".  The idea is that everything happens because of God's plan.  That doesn't mean he wants us to sin and do evil always, but for at least a temporary time, it is in God's plan that there should be evil and sin.  The purpose is to show us what evil is - give us an experience of evil - that is God's will.  This leads to His ultimate purpose - so we will be good, like Him, knowing good and evil.

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.

God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

God plan was not nor ever has been through the first man Adam which = disobedience and sin
God plan was alway through Christ which = obdeience, and no sin

Therefore when we view the world through Adam we think that everything Adam did was according to Gods plan, but God sent Jesus to show us that His plan was NOT in Adam but in Christ.

Therefore to know Gods PLAN we have to take our eyes off of Adam and place them squarely on Christ. For He is the way/plan, the truth and the life.

Ah ok.  Thanks for the insight!

[Nathan]

Well there is another possibility for evil.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

In any case,  we could assume that when we make a statement "God can do anything" then we have to say.

Could God have created us already perfect without having to go through all this mess.   Some will argue thats the only way we can learn, well thats the circle people can get into.  If God can do anything then he could of made us learn differently.

Perhaps the road to perfection has only one path and even God cannot change that.

Otherwise I see it like this.

I pound someone over the head saying it was for someones own good,  but am I righteous for teaching someone that way if indeed I "knew" for certain there was a less painful way of teaching the same lesson?

No one is going to respect a person who inflicts pain if they knew for a fact there was no need for it.

In any case, we can work out the fact that man has some responsibility concerning evil, but if God really is the entity that can do anything, it limitless, then he is responsible for the very circumstances in which evil does exist whether we like it or not.


That was one of the critisism over the song  "What if God was one of us"    Perhaps this existance has one end  "perfection" and only one way to get there and were in it now and perhaps no one no matter how powerful it is perceived can change what it takes to be perfect eventually.

Well, we know that even Jesus was perfected and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. So somehow this learning process we're in was applied even to His earthly life.


I'm going out on a bit of a limb saying this, but more and more, I'm beginning to understand Origen's belief; not that our souls pre-existed per se, but that we "pre-existed" with God in spirit, as spirit, as part of Him. We know that everything that is seen is made of that which is unseen. We are not God, but we are little pieces of Him, and when we form together as one in spirit, we become the "body" even as He is the head. (A drop removed from the ocean is not the ocean, but is still of the same substance.) We all begin in Him in spirit and return to Him in spirit. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. God is the Father of spirits. Jesus Christ our elder brother is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. 'We' (our true selves, our identity hidden in Christ) are not this flesh and blood shell that we have, but rather we are spirit.

Just some things to think about.

Doc, if you don't mind . . .could ya make a little more room on that limb of yours for me as well?  I see the exact same as you concerning where we were before we manifested in these fleshly bodies of ours.  I believe very much my spirit knows these new revelations that my mind has never heard of before.  I think that this is really what is taking place in those "ah ha" moments when we literally take that little quick breath upon receiving the nugget . . .our spirit is simply affirming in us what our mind just caught.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I don't beleive evil or sin or disobedience was a part of God plan Leg.
God gave man a free will and man through disobedience brought evil into this world.

Here is what I believe, I don't believe God had to plan evil, sin, disobedience,  because  God already knew that it had to a part of existance.   Unless of course God can be surprised.

What he may have planned was giving us a gift of life, knowing the path that "must" happen, "knowing" we will end up in perfection.  So his wisdom planned for all the things that had to happen once the process of life started.

There is nothing that will stop that process.   I think why we read of God being grieved is because God empathizes with what we are going through and knows its the only way, even he could not make a plan for our perfection any other way.   Otherwise a God of love would have done so.