Baptism

[Jerm]

Since everyone here comes from different backgrounds, this should be an interesting discussion:  Do you think that infant baptism is warranted or only believer's baptism?

For me, my whole life I believed that infant baptism is wrong.  I saw baptism as a public confession that one was a believer in Christ and since an infant obviously doesn't have the mental capacity to profess faith, an infant shouldn't be baptized.  However, I have started viewing baptism as more of an initiation into the Christian community and if this the meaning baptism, then would that mean that if a child is born into a Christian family, would them being baptized simply be a way of initiating them into the Christian community?  Plus, I have read in many places that infant baptism was practiced from the earliest years of the Church and that the only reason we don't see it occuring specifically in the New Testament is because during this time period, all Christians were adults who had converted from either Judaism or a Pagan religion.  All of this is simply food for thought and I haven't really made up my mind yet.  Any thoughts?

[WhiteWings]

I see infant baptism more as a 'thank you Lord' from the parents. As you said the child knows/chooses nothing.
Personally I think it's useless for the child.

That said I'm looking forward to learn more about baptism for adults. The idea's on it seem to differ as much as ET and UR. From an absolute must, to when ready, to useless because....

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Baptism in water symbolizes being baptized into His death, ie. John baptized them for the repentance from dead works. So this, I think is the reason why we hear of no infants being baptized in water in the Word, because they are not of the age of accountability, and have done no dead works. Those that converted them had children too, and yet we still don't see a reference to it.

It doesn't bother me if some people want to, as some sort of ceremony of giving their children to the Lord. He looks at the motive of the heart in all things. But I wouldn't do it as a requirement of some denomination. My  :2c:  Blessings.....

[Jerm]

Interesting thoughts  :thumbsup:  Something else that I've been thinking about concerning baptism is it's unfortunate decline.  Whether one believes in believer's baptism, infant baptism, or whatever, I think baptism is very important and I think it's kind of sad that it has basically be pushed aside and in some circles competely replaced by the Altar Call/Sinner's Prayer.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I was only in denom for 3 months, then the Lord moved me to 2 more non-denoms for a total of about 2 years, so I don't really know what they are doing these days, but I do know that water baptism is important. I know this because I had put off doing it immediately because the church I was going to didn't have any coming up for months.

So 3 months after my conversion, I was led to a church in a converted barn, that "just happened" to have the most anointed man in this area of the State. In all my visiting other churches with friends and acquaintances, I never saw anyone move as effortlessly in the gifts of the Spirit as he did. So since God really used him in the gifts of the Spirit, this was to be my introduction to them. He left me in this church about a year, before moving me on.

I had an appointment to talk to one of the leaders who invited me to be baptized there that day, even though I was not a "member". It was actually a body where God had raised up five 5 fold together. I know of no other like it. Anyway, I politely refused 3 times, then we had prayer before I was to leave, and I decided while praying to go ahead and get it done. As soon as I said the words that I wanted to get baptized, the heaven's opened, so to speak, and the Lord let me know He had brought me there.

I shared this before I think a long time ago, but I think it is worthy to be shared again, (if only because I need to remember it too), as it shows that God is in control of our lives, even when we don't know Him. Anyway, I was around 10 years old and I had a very vivid dream; so vivid I tried to open my window and go out it to see the man I dreamed of, after it was over and I was awake. In the dream I saw a man in the road outside my bedroom. He had on a white robe that glowed, and like a long silver looking vest over it that also glowed. He was reading a book, never looked up from it, and all I somehow knew about him was that he was going up to the stars (realm of Spirit).

I begged to go with him, but I heard what I assumed was his voice, say, "Not now, I'll come back for you when you're older. Not now, I'll come back for you when you're older", in the kindest, most loving, voice I had ever heard. This man in the dream had an unusual attribute to me as a child, he had a ring of snow white hair that circled each ear caused by where he was bald on top. And he wore glasses. I had cried so much in my begging to go, that I had soaked my flannel nightgown on my chest. I kept saying, "You can't leave me here, I don't belong here!" I thought that was really a weird thing for me to say, and I remembered this dream all my life, because it was so real.

So flash forward 19 years, and I am in a man's office, and just prayed with him and told him I would go ahead and get baptized in water as the Word dictates. The second I said it, I was "caught up" for lack of a better description, not hearing or seeing anything around me, but instead seeing the dream of a 10 year old little girl, and hearing the now familiar Lord's voice say to me, "See? I told you I'd come back for you when you were older!"

Stunned, is an understatement. I don't know which one of us was more stunned, me or the man who had prayed with me, who had now backed away, releasing my apparently frozen-in-time hands, realizing I was staring straight ahead not responding to a thing he said. When I was "with it" again, he asked me what just happened to me. I thought before answering and told the Lord, "I really liked this elderly man, Lord, and he's going to think me a loon and write me off."

So, I said, "I'm know you're probably going to think I'm crazy, but I have to tell you this dream I had when I was 10, because you were in it."

And I did, and he told me that if I had come in 2 weeks sooner he would not have believed me, but a woman he was counseling came in 2 weeks before and told him of a dream she had and she described the very same robes as I did. The man before me, was the man in my dream. Our God is awesome beyond words, and He has purposed each one of us in this hour, to be a vessel of honor for Him, that we might be a light unto the "nations" that don't know Him. Blessings....

[aspiring son]

Not to rain on anyones parade, but ny experiances with baptism were kind of the opposite. When the Lord drew me near, I started a bible study with a friend.The pastor of the study kept telling me he would baptize me but never got around to it. A few years later in my spiritual growth I encountered an apostolic who believed you were only saved when you were baptized in the name of Jesus( as opposed to the father, son and holy spirit. A pointless amd meaningless debate, but it's what they belive). That messed with me so bad it had me in tears. He showed me scripture to tell me I was'nt truly "saved". I'd had enough and decided my wife was good enough to baptize me in our bathtub. And she did. Sometime later I we joined another church. They were having a church picnic and were baptizing that day. I had told my then pastor that I had already been baptized, and he pretty much told me the way I did it wasn't good enough. So after God awakened me to his truths and UR, I realized that His words are spirit and they are life. We will not get anywhere spiritually unless we are baptized by fire and spirit. The physical emmersion represents the spiritual emmersion that takes place. I find nothing wrong with those who want to still do it. But is it essential to our spirit? No.

Grace and peace

[sparrow]

I was never baptised.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, I would say that's between you all and the Father. Is it essential? That depends on how you see this. When Jesus came to the river Jordan for John to baptize Him, John protested that he had need of Jesus to baptize him. Jesus replied that it was necessary to fulfill all righteousness, and submitted to John's baptism. I consider it, then, not as a doctrine of a particular church denom, but a directive from the Father, since Jesus said He only did that which He saw His Father do. My  :2c: Blessings....

[sparrow]

But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.

I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..

So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?

Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.

[Jerm]

But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.

I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..

So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?

Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.

As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism.  For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ.  Now, I see it as much more.  I see it as an initiation into the Christian community.  And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ.  I also think that many take it too lightly.  I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community.  Again, this is just my opinion.

[sparrow]

As with everything else, there seems to be no unanimous (is that you spell that?) view on the exact purpose of baptism.  For years, I saw it as a public confession that one was a follower of Christ.  Now, I see it as much more.  I see it as an initiation into the Christian community.  And I guess if one is willing to be initiated into the Christian community, they are obviously trying to indentify themselves as a follower of Christ.  I also think that many take it too lightly.  I don't believe that it actually "does" anything (i.e. baptismal regeneration) but I do think it is extremely important because it 1) Publically identifies oneself as a follower of Christ and 2) Serves as an initiation or even rite of passage into the Christian community.  Again, this is just my opinion.

But what public? And how would people know you were baptised unless you TOLD them you were? Wouldn't it just be the same thing to say "I'm a follower of Christ."

What is the "christian community"?

I mean... like I said, I've never been baptised. I'm part of THIS community... most of the people here are followers of Christ.

I really do want to understand why some think baptism is important. (I'm not saying it is or it isn't..) I'm not asking my questions to try to sound like a smart aleck.. :grin: It may come across that way, but trust me... I truly am just trying to get info.

[WhiteWings]

But so many are baptised and yet... sit there in their beliefs that God is an evil sadist who will torture most of his creation for all eternity.

I was never baptised yet God dismantled the lies and showed me the beautiful truth about His love..

So, what exactly is the purpose of baptism?

Keep in mind, that I did not grow up in church, so this is why I am asking... out of curiosity, nothing more.

Sparrow I think you can find dozens different answer on internet. All conflicting.
Suprise... for some it's sure you goto an eternal hell if you don't get baptized. (by immersion)
Don't pin me down on the exact reasons but remeber "Born twice, die once. Born once, die twice"
Baptism represents the second birth. Without it you die in the second death = eternal hell.

I spend quite some time figuring out what the Bible says about it. Every vision is backed up by scripture. But very different. As said some see water baptism as 100% needed; yet others say that switched to baptism in the HS the moment Jesus died. (or something similar)

[sparrow]

but what is it needed FOR?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Understand I didn't think it was that important prior to doing either, which is why I hadn't sought out somewhere else to have it done. It was what the Lord did that convinced me of it's importance. I think it falls in with confessing Him before men, as far as our NT understanding goes, but the water baptism of John was for the repentance from dead works.

That's why the baptism that was to come next, the HG baptism, does the works, because these works are not "dead", but initiated by the living Spirit of God. One baptism prepared you for the next one. And truthfully, once I read that Jesus said it was necessary for ALL righteousness, that settled it for me. Blessings.....

[Nathan]

Great conversation guys . . . great questions as well.

There is much to be said about what we consider to be common activities that actually have much more profound purposes than what our physical eyes, and natural understanding can comprehend.  I have been baptized several times throughout several different stages of my life.  The first time was because it was expected . . .I was a teenager at the time and would offend people had I said no.  I wasn't really crazy about it because it was before I was anointed and equipped to speak in front of people . . but I did it.  It was in a church baptistry.  The second time was by choice.  I didn't "have" to because I already did . .but I chose to because there was a huge transformation in my life and for me, it brought closure to my previous Christian experience.  That was in a church baptistry also.

Since becoming a Pastor . . .our church doesn't have a baptistry, so we go down to the city park and do it in the river at a boat dock.  And being involved in both the church baptistry and the river . . .I much MUCH prefer the river.  The proclamation to the church that I've had a  transformation just doesn't cut it for me anymore.   The church congregation is not the public . . .the first time we did this in the river, we had members taking pictures . . .they didn't use the newer digital cameras, they still had the old . . .and when they had the pictures developed . . .their camera picked up some amazing things that the naked eye did not.  There were lights, colored beams and blinding silouttes throughout the whole baptismal process.  One had a neon green beam coming out of the heavens and in to me as I was just about to baptize a lady. 

What is the purpose?  On our side of the veil, two things really . . one is . . .you do it in obedience to the voice in your heart encouraging you to do so . . .for me, that is Christ working in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.  Secondly . . you get wet.  That's about it.  But spiritually, there are things happening with and in us that go beyond our understanding.

When Jesus did it . . .it wasn't any river, but it was the Jordan . . which means "descender/descending" which is connected to death.  And this is the same river that stopped flowing as soon as the feet of the priests stepped in the water . .and it backed up all the way to a city called Adam.  In it's entirety, Jesus was illustrating to us the work that he was doing that brought redemption in this bloodline that we inherited all the way back to Adam . . . and as we are still in his image, we to allow ourselves to be fully submerged in the river to indicate that our flesh nature is dead and buried . . .and as we're raised up, we are proclaiming the great resurrection of our Lord to not just the people that are passing by . . but when you're dealing with the spirit realm, communication travels far beyond natural vision. 

I agree that many churches have deformed the original purpose of this sacred thing Jesus did.  I agree that it's still an important part of the work of the cross in us.  Whether you say "in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" or "in Jesus name" is a petty issue that people have inflated to be a complete distraction and have left themselves powerless.  But also note, once the baptism took place, the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness . . .it was the first step of a process that equipped Jesus for his ministry . . and I believe it's the same for us as well.  It's simply a step of obedience that is part of the process that leads us to being equipped to ministering to others more effectively

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan.....Great post and that was awesome about the pictures and just confirms what I already knew by experience; God does something with us thru it. The green beam of light caught my attention, too. Green is the color of life, as the HS taught me. Blessings....

[chuckt]

And this is the same river that stopped flowing as soon as the feet of the priests stepped in the water . .and it backed up all the way to a city called Adam.

awsome never heard this, where did you get it??

chuckt

[Molly]

In it's entirety, Jesus was illustrating to us the work that he was doing that brought redemption in this bloodline that we inherited all the way back to Adam . . . and as we are still in his image, we to allow ourselves to be fully submerged in the river to indicate that our flesh nature is dead and buried . . .and as we're raised up, we are proclaiming the great resurrection of our Lord to not just the people that are passing by . . but when you're dealing with the spirit realm, communication travels far beyond natural vision.  

The river heaped up in one direction and was cut off [by covenant] in the other.


Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Molly; if you think about it one way, walking thru the "cut river" was in itself as a covenant being cut, just as the burning furnace walked thru the two pieces in the OT.

No covenant is in effect without the shedding of blood; they cut covenants by cutting the animal in half then walking thru the pieces, in essence saying if either of us break the covenant it will require blood to satisfy it, ie. the same will be done to the person breaking it. And of course, man broke covenant, but God who is the God of the covenant and therefore takes the responsibility of keeping covenant, Himself provided the blood to satisfy it (Jesus). Blessings...

[chuckt]

found it...josh 3:16  :hithere: :URWelcome:

[Molly]

16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

--Josh 3


"That the waters"

H4325
מים
mayim
mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water; figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, semen: -  + piss, wasting, water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).


"which came down"

H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): -  X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.


[from] "above"

H4605
מעל
ma‛al
mah'-al
From H5927; properly the upper part, used only adverbially with prefix upward, above, overhead, from the top, etc.: - above, exceeding (-ly), forward, on (X very) high, over, up (-on, -ward), very.


"stood"

H5975
עמד
‛âmad
aw-mad'
A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): - abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.


[and] "rose up"

H6965
קוּם
qûm
koom
A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).


"upon a"

H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.


"heap"

H5067
נד
nêd
nade
From H5110 in the sense of piling up; a mound, that is, wave: - heap.


[very] "far"

H7368
רחק
râchaq
raw-khak'
A primitive root; to widen (in any direction), that is, (intransitively) recede or (transitively) remove (literally or figuratively, of place or relation): - (a, be, cast, drive, get, go, keep [self], put, remove, be too, [wander], withdraw) far (away, off), loose, X refrain, very, (be) a good way (off).


...from the city Adam..

[Nathan]

THAT . . .will preach itself!!!

[chuckt]

this is all way to gnostic for me  :laughhand:

[Molly]

THAT . . .will preach itself!!!

Praise the LORD! :bgdance:

[Molly]

[very far]

"from the city"

H5892
עיר    ער    עיר
‛îyr ‛âr  ‛âyar
eer, awr, aw-yar'
From H5782 a city (a place guarded by waking or a watch) in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post): - Ai [from margin], city, court [from margin], town.



[Adam]


[that is]

"beside"

H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min minnîy  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.


H6654
צד
tsad
tsad
Contracted from an unused root meaning to sidle off; a side; figuratively an adversary: - (be-) side.


"Zaretan"

H6868
צרדתה    צרדה
tserêdâh  tserêdâthâh
tser-ay-daw', tser-ay-daw'-thaw
Apparently from an unused root meaning to pierce; puncture; Tseredah, a place in Palestine: - Zereda, Zeredathah.



[The court of Adam is from the side of the one pierced?]