Works

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, did Jesus Christ produce Good Fruit?  Did He produce Good works?  If so, how do you know He did?

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

Isn't that what we are saying?  And, you knew.  That's all that matters.

I do not think everyone is perceiving that to be the message when someone talks about works "must" be done.    That is my goal, to get people to that understanding.

[trettep]

No actually your message of that is too vague for me to see clearly what your intentions are.  

I posted a scripture about how all these people doing works that you say they must do may hear that they were in vain.

So if you are going to preach works, then preach it so people know how to avoid hearing that.

So how can they?

Let's be more specific, I'm preaching His works, and not just works.  I say that because that is where the fail to distinguish has been in my opinion of many in this thread.

Here are those verses:

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He cast them aside not because they did works but because He didn't know them to be His by their works.  The works they did may have been proclaimed to be His but they were not His.  

Paul

[Molly]

Paul, did Jesus Christ produce Good Fruit?  Did He produce Good works?  If so, how do you know He did?

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

Isn't that what we are saying?  And, you knew.  That's all that matters.

I do not think everyone is perceiving that to be the message when someone talks about works "must" be done.    That is my goal, to get people to that understanding.

well, you seem to have had some horrible experience with churches.  I can appreciate that.  I'm still reeling from my three weeks in a church Bible study.

[Molly]

Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He cast them aside not because they did works but because He didn't know them to be His by their works.  The works they did may have been proclaimed to be His but they were not His. 

Paul

He's also saying they had no relationship with him.

[trettep]

Because we don't stay dead in Christ.


Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

I believe WE do stay dead in Christ.  If Christ is in me then what was me is no longer.  My mind was carnal and hated God.  So if we are dead that means that my mind is dead that hated God.  What is new in us is the new man.  Christ enters in and it is His Life that is alive in us.  

Paul

[trettep]

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

Well, hopefully, you can see that it is important to acknowledge the demonstration of Good Works.  For if we are not to do so then I don't see how someone can confess to know that Christ did them.

Paul

[Molly]

Because we don't stay dead in Christ.


Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

I believe WE do stay dead in Christ.  If Christ is in me then what was me is no longer.  My mind was carnal and hated God.  So if we are dead that means that my mind is dead that hated God.  What is new in us is the new man.  Christ enters in and it is His Life that is alive in us.  

Paul

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

--Rom 6

[Paul Hazelwood]

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

Well, hopefully, you can see that it is important to acknowledge the demonstration of Good Works.  For if we are not to do so then I don't see how someone can confess to know that Christ did them.

Paul

If you really mean they are "His" works, then you should understand the issue of how I presented a situation in my life that was indeed works.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is actually a way of writing to get people to see Gods promise.  It is a promise that through "God" working all things, sin will not continue and grace will abound.

[Molly]

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is actually a way of writing to get people to see Gods promise.  It is a promise that through "God" working all things, sin will not continue and grace will abound.

Yes, but we are not to take advantage of that principle by continuing to live in sin.

Makes me think of the Catholic church.  Keep sinning, go to confession.

If people stopped sinning, they would be out of business.

[Paul Hazelwood]

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is actually a way of writing to get people to see Gods promise.  It is a promise that through "God" working all things, sin will not continue and grace will abound.

Yes, but we are not to take advantage of that principle by continuing to live in sin.

Makes me think of the Catholic church.  Keep sinning, go to confession.

If people stopped sinning, they would be out of business.

I'm not saying we should, yet Paul did things he didn't want to do.   Lets say someone saw Paul while he was doing that which he didn't want to do.   In modern day religion they might see that and say there was no fruit.

Being sinless is not a requirement of producing fruit either.

[Molly]

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is actually a way of writing to get people to see Gods promise.  It is a promise that through "God" working all things, sin will not continue and grace will abound.

Yes, but we are not to take advantage of that principle by continuing to live in sin.

Makes me think of the Catholic church.  Keep sinning, go to confession.

If people stopped sinning, they would be out of business.

I'm not saying we should, yet Paul did things he didn't want to do.   Lets say someone saw Paul while he was doing that which he didn't want to do.   In modern day religion they might see that and say there was no fruit.

Being sinless is not a requirement of producing fruit either.

Not all trees produce the same amount of fruit.

It's all a matter of semantics--because what is really being said is that my unfruitful life (which is really death) is being replaced by his fruitful life.  So my works of death decrease as his works of life increase.  It's a process.  We are being created in the likeness of his image.

[sheila]

 Christ's works, which were of HIS FATHER is the

 salvation/redemption of  ALL mankind done in

 love and through love..the saving of all sinful mankind

  if you are judging the tree by it's fruits..then you are still

 judging from and eating from the tree of the knowledge of

 good and evil...and have not been led to and given the fruit

 the tree of life...for there is NO CONDEMNATION /wrath

 fruit in the tree of life.

   The salvation of all..which depicts the tree of life..is not

  for condem[ing]nation but for healing....the twelve crops

 of fruit depict the fruit of salvation of ALL..the leaves are for

the healing of the nations/covering of the tree of life...

which is of God and Christ and has no wrath or condemnation

but mercy...

  to him who is thirsty I will give WITHOUT COST from the

 spring of the water of life.

  It is the cowardly, the unbeleiving,the vile,the murderers

 the sexually immoral,those who practice majic arts,the

 idolaters and ALL LIARS who receive the place of the secound

death


 cowards-those who shrink back from grace based salvation

to law based works for justification[fear element]

 unbeleiving- those who deny Christ's work of salvation on the

cross for the salvation of the world

the vile- worthless things-like justification based on works of

law...Paul considered it worthless as dung

 murderers- you offspring of viper,you are of your father the

 devil and you do his works, he was a mankiller from the

 beginning[is it lawful to kill or heal on the sabbath?]

 sexually immoral-lust of the flesh instead of life of the spirit

 those who practice majic arts- Babylon lying signs,false

prophets.spiritual adultery-deny grace

 idolaters-presumptousness is the same as idolatry..judging

and condemning mankind from three of knowledge of good and

evil...the fruit of that tree brings death AND AS SUCH IT CAN

 NOT BRING LIFE

 LIARS- false prophets,devil,satan-accusors of the brethern.

 the denying of Christ the Lord that bought them..in favour of

their own works of righteousness

 Know the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brings and

has brought death  of all mankind..it is JUDGEMENT..for  

sin entered in through the eating of that unlawful death

dealing fruit of disobediance...for the fruit appeared good

 for food[and we must not judge by appearance of the fruit]

and for making one wise..but brought death

 the tree of life

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's all a matter of semantics--because what is really being said is that my unfruitful life (which is really death) is being replaced by his fruitful life.  So my works of death decrease as his works of life increase.  It's a process.  We are being created in the likeness of his image.

Yep, I agree with that.   

[sheila]

  I have no idea why those lines are on those words.

               Sheila...

 p.s. the tree that you should know by it's fruits is the discerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil's fruit from the tree of life. Not your brothers

   .judgement/sin/death or grace/salvation/life

[CHB]

Hi Sheila,

I wondered about those lines myself.  :LH: lol

These computers seem to have a mind of their own.

CHB

[Molly]

 I have no idea why those lines are on those words.

               Sheila...

 p.s. the tree that you should know by it's fruits is the discerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil's fruit from the tree of life. Not your brothers

   .judgement/sin/death or grace/salvation/life

Hi Sheila.  take out the '[ 's' ]' in "nations".

[Molly]

 Christ's works, which were of HIS FATHER is the

 salvation/redemption of  ALL mankind done in

 love and through love..the saving of all sinful mankind

  if you are judging the tree by it's fruits..then you are still

 judging from and eating from the tree of the knowledge of

 good and evil...and have not been led to and given the fruit

 the tree of life...for there is NO CONDEMNATION /wrath

 fruit in the tree of life.

   The salvation of all..which depicts the tree of life..is not

  for condem[ing]nations but for healing....the twelve crops

 of fruit depict the fruit of salvation of ALL..the leaves are for

the healing of the nations/covering of the tree of life...

which is of God and Christ and has no wrath or condemnation

but mercy...

  to him who is thirsty I will give WITHOUT COST from the

 spring of the water of life.

  It is the cowardly, the unbeleiving,the vile,the murderers

 the sexually immoral,those who practice majic arts,the

 idolaters and ALL LIARS who receive the place of the secound

death


 cowards-those who shrink back from grace based salvation

to law based works for justification[fear element]

 unbeleiving- those who deny Christ's work of salvation on the

cross for the salvation of the world

the vile- worthless things-like justification based on works of

law...Paul considered it worthless as dung

 murderers- you offspring of viper,you are of your father the

 devil and you do his works, he was a mankiller from the

 beginning[is it lawful to kill or heal on the sabbath?]

 sexually immoral-lust of the flesh instead of life of the spirit

 those who practice majic arts- Babylon lying signs,false

prophets.spiritual adultery-deny grace

 idolaters-presumptousness is the same as idolatry..judging

and condemning mankind from three of knowledge of good and

evil...the fruit of that tree brings death AND AS SUCH IT CAN

 NOT BRING LIFE

 LIARS- false prophets,devil,satan-accusors of the brethern.

 the denying of Christ the Lord that bought them..in favour of

their own works of righteousness

 Know the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brings and

has brought death  of all mankind..it is JUDGEMENT..for  

sin entered in through the eating of that unlawful death

dealing fruit of disobediance...for the fruit appeared good

 for food[and we must not judge by appearance of the fruit]

and for making one wise..but brought death

 the tree of life

:thumbsup:

[trettep]

This is actually a way of writing to get people to see Gods promise.  It is a promise that through "God" working all things, sin will not continue and grace will abound.

To me it is HOW Jesus is saving us.  We are forgiven for PAST sins.  But for those sins henceforth it must be Christ putting down sin in our own flesh.

Paul

[Tony N]

I often get questioned about this preaching of mine about works.  People tell me that we cannot earn salvation.  This is true!  But being required to perform His works is not earning salvation.  For it is Him performing the works through us.  Therefore, they are His works.  We perform them but they belong to Him.  So can our works earn salvation - not at all. 

There is not a scripture(s) that can show that we are not saved by His works through us but quite the contrary for we have much to show we are saved by His works through us. 

Paul

Where in Paul's epistles to us, the nations, does Paul say we are saved by His works through us?

[trettep]

I'm not saying we should, yet Paul did things he didn't want to do.   Lets say someone saw Paul while he was doing that which he didn't want to do.   In modern day religion they might see that and say there was no fruit.

Being sinless is not a requirement of producing fruit either.

Being sinless is the mission given to all those in Christ.  It doesn't mean will will not stumble and fall.  But if we willfully sin after we have that mission then we have no excuse for that sin - we risk falling from God's Grace (Approval).

Paul

[trettep]

Not all trees produce the same amount of fruit.

It's all a matter of semantics--because what is really being said is that my unfruitful life (which is really death) is being replaced by his fruitful life.  So my works of death decrease as his works of life increase.  It's a process.  We are being created in the likeness of his image.

I see it that way also Molly.  We no longer practice sin once we receive the Spirit.  Now if we should willfully sin then we must PAY for that sin.  Now should we incur sin unwillfully (unknowingly), then we are still held accountable (beaten with few stripes), however, charity covers a multitude of sins.

Paul

[Tony N]

dosent christ in you save you FROM hate and save you TO Love?

from wrath to gentleness

from greed to charity

from death to life...

from hauntiness to humility....ETC ETC.

and who gauges this? you, me ? Christ?, how much 10 fold 20 fold 100 fold......

Tony is right:

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_difficult_questions.htm

peace
chuckt

According to what I read from Tony, is that once your sealed your sealed (period) as he says.  I believe that to be a modern invention.  I believe in the earlier beliefs regarding the "seal":

From 2 Clement
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh."
...
"If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much." This, then, is what He means: "Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life."



Paul

Concerning Clement's statement, that is what happens when you mix the Circumcision writings with the Uncircumcision writings.

The Scripture he quoted was not ever meant for us of the nations whom "God has not appointed to indignation but to the procuring of salvation." Clement has committed the sin of the Galatians by having begun in spirit is now being completed in flesh.
And not matter how you swing it trettep, you can say "works of God in us" but it is still Galatianism.

[Doc]

Joh 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give to you; for God the Father sealed this One.
Joh 6:28  Then they said to Him, What may we do that we may work the works of God?
Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom that One sent.


What do you make of this?

[Zeek]

dosent christ in you save you FROM hate and save you TO Love?

from wrath to gentleness

from greed to charity

from death to life...

from hauntiness to humility....ETC ETC.

and who gauges this? you, me ? Christ?, how much 10 fold 20 fold 100 fold......

Tony is right:

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_difficult_questions.htm

peace
chuckt

According to what I read from Tony, is that once your sealed your sealed (period) as he says.  I believe that to be a modern invention.  I believe in the earlier beliefs regarding the "seal":

From 2 Clement
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh."
...
"If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much." This, then, is what He means: "Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life."



Paul

Concerning Clement's statement, that is what happens when you mix the Circumcision writings with the Uncircumcision writings.

The Scripture he quoted was not ever meant for us of the nations whom "God has not appointed to indignation but to the procuring of salvation." Clement has committed the sin of the Galatians by having begun in spirit is not being completed in flesh.
And not matter how you swing it trettep, you can say "works of God in us" but it is still Galatianism.

which epistles apply to us then Tony?