Tentmaker Forum

Quote from: jabcat on February 21, 2009, 04:04:56 AM

QuoteHe also says "don't try to live better, just turn your eyes to God and let Him take care of it...like lifting your eyes to the sun so your pupils dilate...don't smash your eyeballs with your fingers trying to make it happen"

Quote"We are saved by grace, kept by grace, and works are a manifestation of that"

"Works don't have to do with salvation, but are about Sonship, being one of the Chosen that rules and reigns over the nations with Christ [in the millenium/thousand year reign]".

Personally, I believe what I posted at the beginning.  But it remains a struggle, in that sometimes I really do struggle, feeling convicted, trying to please, and sometimes just outright feeling condemned.  (Oh me of little faith.)  And then there comes a season of rest, trusting in the Lord, which is a relief...then I wonder, is that because I did what I needed to do to get close again, or because I "gave up" and leaned on Him...so on it goes...but all the while, it's the process of learning "it's in Him I live, breathe, have my being"...

Anyone else exposed to any of this, or live any of this?

Quote from: sheila on February 21, 2009, 11:25:31 PM


  CP

   Mercy could not be 'known' for what it is,neither 'GRACE'

  nor perfection of the Sons of God...without undergoing

  the expierence of evil. Evil is necessary to develope and show

  forth the sterling qualities of mercy[undeserved kindness,]

  nor could long-suffering/endurance or compassion be manifest.



  EVIL provides that which causes  suffering and hardship.


     Mercy and forgiveness...just consider..if God had made

    all His children sinless to begin with...how would

   compassion for the suffering and mercy be shown.


  It is an aspect of His Holy Spirit Nature that we as His children

  must also have developed in us.We would be incomplete

  in all of the qualities of love....He demands ALL of the fruit.

    Otherwise we may be righteous..but hard-hearted..not having

   compassion on the suffering[not knowing wht to suffer is.


  Is love really LOVE, without mercy and compassion?

   THE FULLNESS OF LOVE OF OUR FATHER AND CHRIST

    MUST BE DEVELOPED IN US.


  It was no design flaw of His, this expierence with evil

  we all undergo here.He has it all under control


   CHB loved that post about works


                  Sheila

Quote from: sheila on February 22, 2009, 12:14:29 AM


  I hear you,CP. That little girl died at the hands of evil..

  just like Christ did.[Rose] I hate it,too. I think He is also


developing a real HATRED OF EVIL IN US.


  It is  traumatizing..this world..the evil and

  suffering  in it.


                              Sheila

Quote from: SpiritDriven on February 22, 2009, 12:45:36 AM
Hello Jabcat...

Here is the Link... http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/2008/03/101-lies-taught-in-church-every-sunday_12.html

Enjoy

Quote from: claypot
Got me to thinkin. Did God really create us expecting us not to do wrong? Think about it. Put 20 people in a room with a button on the wall and tell them not to push it. Maybe some of them wouldn't actually push it but all of them would wonder about it. You just can't do that to people.

Quote from: claypot on February 21, 2009, 10:40:41 PM
CHB, you wrote.......

If you really stop and think about it, our works have gotten us into trouble with God and man since the beginning of time. Works have caused man  to be proud, self righteous, boastful. Our so called works have been used to try to please and impress God and man.

Got me to thinkin. Did God really create us expecting us not to do wrong? Think about it. Put 20 people in a room with a button on the wall and tell them not to push it. Maybe some of them wouldn't actually push it but all of them would wonder about it. You just can't do that to people.

Now here's God putting a button right in front of people and saying "Don't push that. Isn't this a nice day? Nice ear rings, Eve." I mean there's probably not that much to do in the garden so they must have had quite a bit of time to wonder about things and I bet that tree was a big wondering event.

What do people do wrong anyway? Eat from apple trees? In other words what do people do that is so foreign to their natures? Try telling a fish not to swim. People eat fruit from trees, they lie, steal, kill, make love, laugh and so on. These desires are within them. Why the big surprise if we do what is within us?

cp

QuoteWhy would He do such a thing?  So we would know what it is like.  So we would fully understand evil and unrighteousness - this is a requirement to become righteous.

Quote from: Dallas on February 25, 2009, 06:54:04 PM
Hey Legoman,

QuoteWhy would He do such a thing?  So we would know what it is like.  So we would fully understand evil and unrighteousness - this is a requirement to become righteous.

I realize that many people believe this, but I can't see any biblical reasoning to support this. Where do you get this from the bible?

Quote from: Taffy on February 25, 2009, 09:13:13 PM
Hi lego man

seems very much the explaination L Ray Smith.....

I kinda few those scripts in Eccl as Under the SUN,that of the natural existance which for mine relate somewhat to the OLD C..the Old man...

As for EVIL, maybe  a relative term for ignorance...

For God HAS set the WORLD in the HEART of MEN. MAYBE  both the GLORY of the OLD and the GREATER GLORY of the NEW. Christ HID in the hearts of MEN? The Pearl of GREAT price?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
anyways Just a Thought

Blessings
T

Quote from: legoman on February 25, 2009, 09:21:38 PM

Quote from: Taffy on February 25, 2009, 09:13:13 PM
Hi lego man

seems very much the explaination L Ray Smith.....

I kinda few those scripts in Eccl as Under the SUN,that of the natural existance which for mine relate somewhat to the OLD C..the Old man...

As for EVIL, maybe  a relative term for ignorance...

For God HAS set the WORLD in the HEART of MEN. MAYBE  both the GLORY of the OLD and the GREATER GLORY of the NEW. Christ HID in the hearts of MEN? The Pearl of GREAT price?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
anyways Just a Thought

Blessings
T

Yes as you can tell I read alot of Ray Smith's stuff.  It makes sense to me...

Ecc 3:11 is another good one, I almost quoted it as well...  everything is beautiful in his time - I read that as relating to Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven"  - basically there is a reason for everything that happens, and no man can figure it all out.  Although I hope He explains it all to us some day...

Legoman

Quote from: trettep on March 03, 2009, 08:40:58 PM
To understand this subject we must establish if works are ever required to be saved in the scriptures:

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

To receive aionios Life is to be saved.  Here in those verses we clearly see that the aionios life is given as a direct result of works. 

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 09:07:25 PM
Paul, in Romans 2:7 they may seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life by their works but it is not saying they will get it for the apostle Paul in this area is telling us none are righteous. They only get it through Christ's obedience.

Quote from: trettep on March 03, 2009, 08:40:58 PM
Consider that ALL Good works are copyrighted by the Christ. 

Quote from: trettep on March 03, 2009, 09:22:51 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 09:07:25 PM
Paul, in Romans 2:7 they may seek glory and honour and immortality, eternal life by their works but it is not saying they will get it for the apostle Paul in this area is telling us none are righteous. They only get it through Christ's obedience.

Tony, to me the verses do say that the aionios life is rendered for works.  My statements don't contracdict the fact that we are not righteous.  Jesus IS righteous and when we have Christ in us - He puts down sin in our own flesh.  See it is His obedience that is being performed through us. 

Paul

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 09:57:22 PM

From Romans 1:14 to 3:23 the apostle Paul is proving the utter inability for mankind to be righteous by law and apart from law. It is not till Paul gets to Romans 3:24 that he begins to prove that all righteousness is through Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul Paul is not saying "works + Christ = righteousness."

Quote from: trettep on March 03, 2009, 10:09:58 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 09:57:22 PM

From Romans 1:14 to 3:23 the apostle Paul is proving the utter inability for mankind to be righteous by law and apart from law. It is not till Paul gets to Romans 3:24 that he begins to prove that all righteousness is through Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul Paul is not saying "works + Christ = righteousness."

Tony, I believe we both agree that all righeousness is done through Jesus Christ.  I think we both agree that man is unable of his works to perform righteousness.  It appears to me that you don't believe that the performance of righteousness is needed to be saved and this is where we disagree.  I believe that an incapable man can perform what is righteous by having the spirit of the capable man (Christ).

Paul

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 10:30:08 PM
Hi Paul, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you. The problem is this: Paul is not showing how mankind is doing his works by having the spirit of Christ in them in Romans 1:14 to 3:23 especially Romans 2:7. In 2:7 they may seek eonian life by doing good works but that doesn't mean they get it. All their righteousness is as filthy rags.

Quote from: Tony N on March 03, 2009, 11:00:27 PM
Paul, sorry, can't help ya bud.

Tony

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2009, 01:54:18 AM
Hi guys.  Just taking a shot here.  Does this help at all?  If not  :dontknow:, hey I tried :)

This from the Geneva Study Bible Commentary;

"Glory which follows good works, which he does not lay out before us as though there were any that could attain to salvation by his own strength, but, he lays this condition of salvation before us, which no man can perform, to bring men to Christ, who alone justifies the believers, as he himself concludes; see Ro 2:21-22."

God's blessing, James.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 01:17:33 PM
A believer cannot and should not mix works with grace to become more righteous or have a better standing with God. To do so is to enter into Galatianism.

I'm not saying a believer should not do good works out of love. But they are not required for salvation nor for being more righteous according to what Paul wrote to the Galatians.

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 04:02:37 PM
Tony, Grace does NOT exclude works.  To be under Grace is to have been given the Christ.  Christ is NOT idle.  If you don't have works your none of His.   

Again, the distinction must be made between our works and His (the Christ) works.  Works are a REQUIREMENT to being saved.  I'm not talking about OUR works but talking about His works.

Paul

Quote from: LaurieJo on March 04, 2009, 04:54:40 PM
Good works are NOT a requirement to being saved----to think that is to fall from grace!  You're mixing Law and Grace.....very dangerous doctrine that can lead to "self" righteousmess or hopelessness.

As God grows/transforms us more into the image of Christ, we will naturally manifest good works as God wants to bless us by blessing others.  But to say that doing good works is a requirement for salvation is a very, very harmful teaching!

I think you should read the links I posted earlier.

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 05:25:52 PM
come on yall.

good works DONT save, but we are saved UNTO good works.

bottom line, who knowing Christ would not LOOK for ways to work/bless...ETC.

simple  :happy3:

dont let the word ""works"" cause problems.

chuckt.

QuoteBut GOOD works do save.

QuoteRev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is those that DO His commandments that receive of the Tree of Life.

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 05:50:57 PM

QuoteBut GOOD works do save.

save FROM what??

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".

QuoteRev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is those that DO His commandments that receive of the Tree of Life.

22:14 Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may be entering the portals into the city.


whatever......

anyone INCHRIST will be doing ""works"". one dosent do works to GET SAVED.


i will not go round and round with this. we can prooftext at each other all day long.  :sigh:


The words ""saved"" and ""salvation"" have all but lost all meaning in the 21st century western world.


Good day and blessing to you.

chuckt

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 05:08:37 PM
Hi LauriJo, I'm very confident that Works are required.  Again, not my own works but the works of Christ.  If anyone is telling me that doing the works of Christ is falling from Grace, I would say they are mistaken.  I find no shame in what I'm teaching here.  It is all scriptural.  Consider this:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures are even teaching that those that do His commandments are those that have right to the tree of life (salvation).

The scriptures here are showing a requirement of performing His commandments to obtaining access to the tree of life.  Please address this verse in your rebuttal. Again, I say that Grace doesn't exclude works - it only excludes our works.

Paul

QuoteYou asked "saved from what".  The answer is saved from your sins which leads to death.  Thus if you believe that your saved and acknowledge Christ as your Lord and Savior but still are practicing sin as if to believe that your already saved then guess what? - your not saved.  It is impossible to still practice sin and be saved.

Paul

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 06:12:41 PM

QuoteYou asked "saved from what".  The answer is saved from your sins which leads to death.  Thus if you believe that your saved and acknowledge Christ as your Lord and Savior but still are practicing sin as if to believe that your already saved then guess what? - your not saved.  It is impossible to still practice sin and be saved.

Paul

WOW ...so works save us from our sin  :thumbdown:


ok. when you can show me how much sin is too much we can go on  :dontknow:

i mean forget grace.

and some will say oh so since grace abounds we can go on sinning?

this is pure carnal thinking.

please post me a chart of sins and how much is too much.

wait how about this, to address your subject, here is the work:

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.  :bgdance:


2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


i think i'll do these things and leave ""getting into heaven"" up to GOD.


salvation is a process and ALL christians sin some more than others at different times, so please post us a ""sin chart""  :laughing7:

i mean there is plenty of sin in our life we dont even recognize!!


later
chuckt

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 05:08:37 PM
Hi LauriJo, I'm very confident that Works are required.  Again, not my own works but the works of Christ.  If anyone is telling me that doing the works of Christ is falling from Grace, I would say they are mistaken.  I find no shame in what I'm teaching here.  It is all scriptural.  Consider this:

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The scriptures are even teaching that those that do His commandments are those that have right to the tree of life (salvation).

The scriptures here are showing a requirement of performing His commandments to obtaining access to the tree of life.  Please address this verse in your rebuttal. Again, I say that Grace doesn't exclude works - it only excludes our works.

Paul

Quote
Here is how many sins are to much: 1

QuoteSee Jesus was without sin.  If you continue in your sins and yet acknowledge Christ (which many do) then you don't have Christ and infact commit blasphemy for you defame the name of Jesus Christ.

QuoteI haven't seen you address my verse that I posted.  Did you think it was translated wrong?  Here  it is again:

QuoteRev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

QuoteShould I follow what your saying or what God's Word is saying?  The challenge to everyone here is that you will not find evidence from God's Word to show that one is not saved as a direct result of Christ WORKING through them.

Quoteone is not saved as a direct result of Christ WORKING through them

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 06:44:38 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Quote from: Cardinal on March 04, 2009, 06:54:11 PM
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 06:49:34 PM
can you list the commandments you are talking about doing?

thanks
chuckt

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 07:12:24 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 06:49:34 PM
can you list the commandments you are talking about doing?

thanks
chuckt

Here you go Chuckt.  I thought I already posted this as a reply but didn't see it.  So I apology if this is a repeat.

Rom 13:9  for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'
Rom 13:10  the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.

Paul

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 07:23:05 PMthanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt

Quote from: Cardinal on March 04, 2009, 06:54:11 PM
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

Quote from: claypot on March 04, 2009, 07:53:24 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on March 04, 2009, 06:54:11 PM
:cloud9: Trettep, are you speaking along the lines of, "Faith without works (His) is dead?"
Blessings....

This from Card cleared it up for me. I like that. Jesus said He works and His Father works and we know what they were working on don't we?

cp

• John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 06:44:38 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

• John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

• John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

• John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 08:36:00 PM

Is it possible to love Christ "by faith alone" while not keeping His commandments?

• John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

<br>

• John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

<br>

• John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Are these verses still true?  Or were Christ's disciples supposed to quickly forget these words after Pentecost so as not to fall from grace in the age of grace?

What was Christ trying to tell His disciples?

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:32:05 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 06:44:38 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

 

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:32:05 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 06:44:38 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Galatianism, pure and simple.
Also, trettep, you are bringing an evangel that was not an evangel Paul brought. He said if anyone bring a different evangel other than what we bring let him be anathema. Paul never taught saved by works which we do. He never taught that works are required but in fact taught that works were not required.

I would suggest you stop mixing Circumcision writings such as Revelation passages with Paul's evangel. Don't so makes it a different evangel.

TonyN - I'm quite comfortable with the message of Paul and His Gospel is what I'm preaching here.  Paul did teach we are saved by the works of Christ.  Paul only taught that OUR works are not required.  So again if you can prove other wise from God's Word that someone can be saved without performing the Works of Christ then I will turn from such a message.   Surely, if you believe Paul is preaching that Christ Works don't save us that you can present that from His own words.

Paul

Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:32:05 PM
Paul wrote that "we are saved by grace through faith and this is not out of you. It is God's approach present, not of works lest any man should boast."

trettep, are you saying that if one mixes works with grace that those works are the works of Christ? And so are you saying Paul was wrong for writing Galatians?

trettep, the apostle Paul said in Galatians that we are justified by the faith of Christ alone and not by works of law.

• Ephesains 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:41:33 PMLikewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:41:33 PMLikewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision. We of the Uncircumcision are never told by our apostle, Paul, that we must do those things which Christ told His disciples to do. Dig?

• Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

• Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 09:22:50 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 08:41:33 PMLikewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision. We of the Uncircumcision are never told by our apostle, Paul, that we must do those things which Christ told His disciples to do. Dig?

No I don't dig Tony.

• Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

<br>

• Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Paul just got done proving that man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.  Then Paul applies his proof to both Jew and Gentile alike.  So how is it you say that the Circumcision justification includes works while the Uncircumcision justification does not?

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 09:29:31 PM
I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg. :dontknow:

What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

A righeous person will do thus and thus . . ..the church then jumps on the "thus and thus" and try to impose on the sheep of how you should fit that mold . . .when instead . .all that Scripture was saying was . . .when Chirst is in you  . . . these are some of the changes he'll make in you . . .

But if you don't see these things in people, it doesn't mean that they aren't saved . . .it just may mean they're very young in their salvation and the spiritual metamorphis has not yet taken a visual affect.  Kind of like planting a seed . . .just because you don't see it sprouting up yet, doesn't mean that the seed has died and life is present.

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 09:29:31 PM
I feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg. :dontknow:

What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

A righeous person will do thus and thus . . ..the church then jumps on the "thus and thus" and try to impose on the sheep of how you should fit that mold . . .when instead . .all that Scripture was saying was . . .when Chirst is in you  . . . these are some of the changes he'll make in you . . .

But if you don't see these things in people, it doesn't mean that they aren't saved . . .it just may mean they're very young in their salvation and the spiritual metamorphis has not yet taken a visual affect.  Kind of like planting a seed . . .just because you don't see it sprouting up yet, doesn't mean that the seed has died and life is present.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 09:27:06 PMJames is diametrically different from Pau's evangel.

QuotePaul would never teach to the nations what James taught to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).

• Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 09:29:31 PMI feel like this conversation is an argument over which came first, the chicken or the egg. :dontknow:  What if the examples given in Scripture were not intended for us to conform to, but instead, just recognize and acknowledge their root as they manifest in us also.

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:02:32 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 09:27:06 PMJames is diametrically different from Pau's evangel.

You didn't explain why Paul applied his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

QuotePaul would never teach to the nations what James taught to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).

Quote

• Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 10:40:29 PMThat's because Paul didn't apply his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:45:03 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 10:40:29 PMThat's because Paul didn't apply his diametrically different gospel to the circumcision.

Because he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PMBecause he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 11:10:23 PMQuestion . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2009, 11:27:09 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

:icon_flower:

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 11:18:11 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PMBecause he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

So was James teaching a false gospel?  If not then why were Paul and James teaching the Circumcison two different true gospels?  And Earlier you said "Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision."  but now you agreed that both are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.  So how is it different?

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 11:40:02 PMI agreed that Paul taught that Jews and Greeks are justified by faith apart from works to those Jews and Greeks who come under his administration.

No, James was teaching the twelve tribes of Israel. That is who James is addressed to in James 1:1. We of the nations are not the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul would not teach the twelve tribes what he taught us of the nations and James would not teach to us what he taught to the twelve tribes.

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 11:40:02 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 11:18:11 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 04, 2009, 10:47:27 PMBecause he didn't have one.

Paul taught that man (both Jew and Gentile) are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's what I'm saying. Paul taught that and James taught that a man is not justified by faith only.

So was James teaching a false gospel?  If not then why were Paul and James teaching the Circumcison two different true gospels?  And Earlier you said "Likewise, the Circumcision is different from the Uncircumcision."  but now you agreed that both are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.  So how is it different?

I agreed that Paul taught that Jews and Greeks are justified by faith apart from works to those Jews and Greeks who come under his administration.

No, James was teaching the twelve tribes of Israel. That is who James is addressed to in James 1:1. We of the nations are not the twelve tribes of Israel.

Paul would not teach the twelve tribes what he taught us of the nations and James would not teach to us what he taught to the twelve tribes.

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 12:12:29 AM

James 1:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

These Two scriptures were used on another board to show that James and Paul did not agree with one another. Here was my reply, hope it may be helpful to others that see a contradiction between James and Paul.

Do these scriptures conflict with one another? Or are they speaking of two aspects of faith.

First it should be pointed out that Paul in Romans 4 is speaking of faith in the birth of Isaac (this is seen in verses 18-22) and James is speaking of the sacrifice of Isaac.

Two different aspects of faith.

Abraham did nothing but believe in Isaacs birth, but once Isaac/Christ is birthed in us He produces works of faith. It is these works of faith James is speaking of and this can be seen in verse 22 "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" /complete

If Abraham never offered up Isaac (which is works) then his faith would never have come to completion.

We can see these same works of faith also mentioned by both Jesus and Paul.

John 8:39
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.  

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.( Are they works of faith or works of the law)
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works,(these would be works of the law) least any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (works of faith)

2 Thessalonians 1:11
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Hebrews 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark (works) to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now think on this; if Noah had not built the boat (which was a work of faith, the same works of faith James is speaking on) then he and his house would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

Adds another layer to "faith without works is dead" don't it.

QuoteWe all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 11:29:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2009, 11:27:09 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

:icon_flower:

So what must you do to stay in salvation?  Obviously, the Bible talks of those enduring to the end for a purpose.

Paul

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 12:47:51 AM
Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Quote from: bobf on March 05, 2009, 01:06:14 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 12:47:51 AM
Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Good thoughts Pneuma.

Another thing to notice about James' and Paul's statements about fath and works.  Both made logical arguments or proofs from scripture.  Neither of their proofs hinged on what race, religion, or administration one belongs to.  Therefore, if their proofs were sound, they could not arrive at opposing conclusions for different races, religions, or administrations.

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 01:11:40 AMAmen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Quote from: bobf on March 05, 2009, 01:17:11 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 01:11:40 AMAmen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Yeah.  I don't know if you're following my discussion with Tony.  Am I missing something?  Is there a difference between "the circumcision" (Romans 3:30) and "the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1) ???

Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2009, 02:20:18 AM
I certainly don't claim to have all that figured out, but there sure seems to be significant differences between Peter's "doctine" to the early Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, and Paul's "doctrine" to the Gentiles being grafted in...I certainly find it of interest, but again, don't have the full picture of it...another piece of it, it seems the Gentiles were never given The Law  :dontknow:.

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 12:47:51 AM

QuoteWe all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 12:56:55 AMRecieving the END of your Faith, the salvation of your souls ,

For me its how we perceive Who or What the END is , ?

Receiving the END( Christ) of your Faith, the salvation of your souls  and he ,who endures to the END( Christ) will be saved.

mean while Im his workmanship and continue in the faith ( HIS) in what ever this life brings and where ever HE leads me
WHAT WORKS are done are His through me , GOOD works are a Labour of love , as His spirit flows in me, it flows to others ,
To HIM the Glory , ALWAYS :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 02:31:24 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 12:47:51 AM

QuoteWe all have done works of the flesh and many as we can see many have performed works of the Christ.  Those works are contrary to each other.

Hi Paul
I agree, if you thought I said anything contrary you did not understand my post.

Sorry pneuma, I didn't mean to imply that you did.  I often just spot things in statements and blurt out a quick thought.  Don't take it as disagreement or anything.

Paul

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 02:29:07 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2009, 02:20:18 AM
I certainly don't claim to have all that figured out, but there sure seems to be significant differences between Peter's "doctine" to the early Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, and Paul's "doctrine" to the Gentiles being grafted in...I certainly find it of interest, but again, don't have the full picture of it...another piece of it, it seems the Gentiles were never given The Law  :dontknow:.

Hi Jab, if you see a contradiction I beleive it to be the error of your own eyes, the scriptures don't contradict each other, but maybe your refuring to when Paul stood up against Peter because Peter fell into the error of the Jews.

No the outward law was not given to the Gentiles, but it was given just the same for they recieved it inwardly.

Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2009, 02:52:35 AM
I will accept that you have an opinion or understanding, but perhaps present it in that manner.  I never said the scriptures contradict each other.  Contradict is your word.  I believe scripture reconciles when taken in context and rightly divided.

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 01:43:22 AM

Quote from: bobf on March 05, 2009, 01:17:11 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 01:11:40 AMAmen Bob as we are all of the household of God, therfore race has absulutly no part in the picture.

Yeah.  I don't know if you're following my discussion with Tony.  Am I missing something?  Is there a difference between "the circumcision" (Romans 3:30) and "the twelve tribes of Israel" (James 1:1) ???

No difference between circumcision and non circumcision, Paul even states as much.

Tony follow Knoch teaching on this Bob, although I like some of what Knoch teaches this is one of the areas I differ from his and Tonys beleif.

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 03:10:42 AM

In CHRIST circumcision or uncircumcision is availing anything:

Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."

Yet Paul shows the Circumcision still exists in the real world:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Col 4:11 and Jesus, termed Justus, who are of the Circumcision. These are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who became a solace to me."

Gal 2:7-9  But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,  (8)  according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),  (9)  and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-"

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 07:50:02 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 07:23:05 PMthanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt

Well at least we agree on that, Chuckt.

Paul

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 02:00:54 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 07:50:02 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 04, 2009, 07:23:05 PMthanks. i didnt see that and i agree 100% LOVE fullfills the law.

God bless
chuckt

Well at least we agree on that, Chuckt.

Paul

Good morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 02:57:17 PM
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_n1393815327_30281118_7844638.jpg)

(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_n1393815327_30273475_7745.jpg)


im here always reading and waiting in the shadows to pounce  :laughing7:

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 03:05:38 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 02:57:17 PM
(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_n1393815327_30281118_7844638.jpg)

(http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_n1393815327_30273475_7745.jpg)


im here always reading and waiting in the shadows to pounce  :laughing7:

Gosh bud , How shes grown,  she has( sorry bro cant remember the little sweeties name) your eating habits I see...a chip off the old block as they say, she beating those drums too :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2009, 07:13:51 AM

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 03:10:42 AM

In CHRIST circumcision or uncircumcision is availing anything:

Gal 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."

Yet Paul shows the Circumcision still exists in the real world:

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Col 4:11 and Jesus, termed Justus, who are of the Circumcision. These are the only fellow workers for the kingdom of God who became a solace to me."

Gal 2:7-9  But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,  (8)  according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations),  (9)  and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision-"

Thanks Tony, that's what I was getting at.  The salvation was the same for both groups; through Jesus.  But as you say, "in real life", there was a group as I mentioned in my previous post, the Jewish-Christian Nazarenes, who had been brought up through temple worship, circumcision, the Law.  Although now saved through grace by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, in reality having spiritually passed into the New Covenant, still, they had walked in the ways of the Old Covenant, and actually continued to hold to many of the customs of the OC and the Law...yes, the Law..and I'm bettin' they weren't able to undo the circumcision of their flesh  :mshock:.  The history of the Nazarenes shows that although they were known as the people of the Way, they still held to many of their Jewish customs...including continuing to worship in the temple!  As you say, and as I was suggesting, primarily, Peter's ministry was to them, including his addressing some different realities that existed for them that did not exist for the gentiles, to whom Paul primarily  ministered.  No difference in What saved them, Who the source of their salvation was...so not a different gospel, yet a different people with different backgrounds, and truly different histories with God Himself, as it were. 

The Nazarenes eventually scattered, the temple was destroyed, and one would think Christendom would have become a more united body..well, enter the RCC, then the Eastern Orthodox split, then the Reformation, then the Baptists, Methodists, AG, etc....Jesus is the gospel, but still, thousands of different viewpoints.

So as I understand it, same salvation, different peoples with different issues...and different primary ministers of the gospel to each.    And today, works are a response to love and guidance, not as a means to salvation..."neither circumcision or uncircumcision"... :thumbsup:

QuoteSo as I understand it, same salvation, different peoples with different issues...and different primary ministers of the gospel to each.    And today, works are a response to love and guidance, not as a means to salvation..."neither circumcision or uncircumcision"...

Quote from: LaurieJo on March 05, 2009, 03:24:30 PM
Seems there are 3 types of works....all mentiond in this thread, but 2 getting most of the focus.

There are works of the Hebrew's Old Covenant Law---by it the righteousness of God and the weakness of our flesh is revealed to us...it is a revelation needed so that we can receive the gospel.

Then there are "good works".  These are things we do naturally as our love for others grow. Many in the church system are falsely led to think that performing "good works" scores them reward points with God....they don't realize how that mindset hinders their faith from growing.  They have "zeal without knowledge"...thinking that "good works" makes one more right with God is performance-based religion...to think that doing "good Works" or keeping the Jew's Law is a requirement is to "fall from grace".
As God transforms us into the image of His Son, we will manifest those works.

Then there are the works that James spoke of...."justifying works".  As the plan God set in place at the beginning of time moves forward through the ages, He has had people doing these works during the times in which they lived.   In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is a list of people who we can see their faith by their works: Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.
They all had a knowledge of what God was going to bring to pass during their time....and they worked in harmony with God.
Same thing with Paul, James, and the disciples who lived during their time....they worked "together with God" during that transition period. 
They knew the destruction soon to take place in Jerusalem and the the suffering many would suffer for following Christ.....but they had acquired a strong faith because of their knowledge of God and His plan that spans from the beginning to future time past the time that they lived.  They knew they were called to "labour together with God", just as those in Hebrews 11, to do what God had purposed during their time.  Those are justifying works....we can see their faith by their works.

Now we need to think about what God is doing during our time....I am seeing inklings....anyone else?

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 02:00:54 PMGood morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt

Quote from: LaurieJo on March 05, 2009, 03:24:30 PM
Seems there are 3 types of works....all mentiond in this thread, but 2 getting most of the focus.

There are works of the Hebrew's Old Covenant Law---by it the righteousness of God and the weakness of our flesh is revealed to us...it is a revelation needed so that we can receive the gospel.

Then there are "good works".  These are things we do naturally as our love for others grow. Many in the church system are falsely led to think that performing "good works" scores them reward points with God....they don't realize how that mindset hinders their faith from growing.  They have "zeal without knowledge"...thinking that "good works" makes one more right with God is performance-based religion...to think that doing "good Works" or keeping the Jew's Law is a requirement is to "fall from grace".
As God transforms us into the image of His Son, we will manifest those works.

Then there are the works that James spoke of...."justifying works".  As the plan God set in place at the beginning of time moves forward through the ages, He has had people doing these works during the times in which they lived.   In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is a list of people who we can see their faith by their works: Noah, Abraham, Rahab, etc.
They all had a knowledge of what God was going to bring to pass during their time....and they worked in harmony with God.
Same thing with Paul, James, and the disciples who lived during their time....they worked "together with God" during that transition period. 
They knew the destruction soon to take place in Jerusalem and the the suffering many would suffer for following Christ.....but they had acquired a strong faith because of their knowledge of God and His plan that spans from the beginning to future time past the time that they lived.  They knew they were called to "labour together with God", just as those in Hebrews 11, to do what God had purposed during their time.  Those are justifying works....we can see their faith by their works.

Now we need to think about what God is doing during our time....I am seeing inklings....anyone else?

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 05:05:48 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 02:00:54 PMGood morning paul.

thats why i posted 1 cor 13 and the peter verses about adding to faith till we get to LOVE.

many ""christians"" look real good on the outside, nice and churchy, they have great self control, they dont steal, smoke, drink, fornicate,murder, they give money to the man, they donate time for bake sales and church events, always doing doing doing, yet are DEAD on the inside, full of hate, and torment and fear.

sorry if i was harsh with you yesterday.

God bless
chuckt

I agree with that Chuckt.  I noticed you put Christians in quotes. The real test of our faith is in adversity.  How much do we love others when they hate and persecute us.  That is the real test of our Faith in Christ.  Jesus continued to love those that hated Him.  If we have Christ - we shall also.


Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 04:30:15 PM
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

So in that sense, the gospel was very much different . .the Jews are all about following laws physically, but the message to the Gentiles was that Christ did to you spiritually what the Jews chose to do physcially . . .when Paul finished giving his defense on his message to them, they discussed it amongst themselves and their verdict was . . .

Acts 15 (Message Translation)
19-21"So here is my decision: We're not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We'll write them a letter and tell them, 'Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christians—blood, for instance.' This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."

Quote from: chuckt on March 05, 2009, 05:15:11 PM

you speak truth here, many believers have a form of godliness never really having their faith tested. and they are mean as snakes to those not in their club.

i like this verse:

1cor11:19 For it must be that there are sects also among you, that those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent among you.

KJV:

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


when we are railed against and reproached, and cursed, we bless and are approved.

grace and peace.
chuckt

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 05:19:45 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 04:30:15 PM
I'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

So in that sense, the gospel was very much different . .the Jews are all about following laws physically, but the message to the Gentiles was that Christ did to you spiritually what the Jews chose to do physcially . . .when Paul finished giving his defense on his message to them, they discussed it amongst themselves and their verdict was . . .

Acts 15 (Message Translation)
19-21"So here is my decision: We're not going to unnecessarily burden non-Jewish people who turn to the Master. We'll write them a letter and tell them, 'Be careful to not get involved in activities connected with idols, to guard the morality of sex and marriage, to not serve food offensive to Jewish Christians—blood, for instance.' This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."

There is only ONE Gospel.  There is a variety of audiences to receive that Gospel.  Peter was rebuked by Paul for showing evidence of distinction as if the Gospel was divided.  Let us not jump to the same error as Peter.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 11:29:44 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2009, 11:27:09 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 04, 2009, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: bobf on March 04, 2009, 10:16:52 PMIf they are not meant to be conformed to, then why did Jesus command people to conform to them?

• Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

There seems to be this belief that once your in the vine that you can't be cast off.  That would be taking the universalist position way to far. 

Paul

Question . . .what did you do to become a sinner?
Answer . . .nothing . .you were born into it through the first Adam
Question . . .what must you do to become saved?
Answer . . .nothing . . .you were born into it through the second Adam

You can claim works and outward fruit until you're blue in the face, but that's not a message of freedom you preach . . .Christ freed us from the laws . .including yours . . .you're trying to say grace isn't strong enough, the cross wasn't powerful enough for me to live righteously . . .i must also "do" whatever your standards of being a Christian are . . .and I'm not in agreement with that . . .I believe grace is just that powerful . .my works do not give me my status in the kingdom . . .what does is, my awareness of what has been declared over me . . .all that's required is to exercise the authority that is already provided. 

You want to judge salvation by one's actions . . .yet we're instructed to "work out your own salvation" and I choose to do just that . . .

I also disagree that you can lose the gift that you never earned in the first place.  God's gifts are unrepentant . . .he doesn't take them back . . .salvation is not a reward . .it's a gift and it doesn't get returned just because my flesh acts up after the gift has been received.  There is more freedom here than the natural reasoning mind can comprehend . . . grace is just that great.

:icon_flower:

So what must you do to stay in salvation?  Obviously, the Bible talks of those enduring to the end for a purpose.

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 05:43:50 PM
It wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.  He was all friendly with the Gentiles until predominant Jews showed up . .then he shunned the Gentiles and hung out with these hot shot Jews . . .

But I still stand on the fact that there is only ONE gate . .which is Christ . .even though the gospels may vary, depending on the people that are being spoken to.

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 05:55:02 PM
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 06:10:41 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 05:55:02 PM
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 06:10:41 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 05:55:02 PM
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

QuoteThe moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 06:10:41 PM
The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 06:10:41 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 05:55:02 PM
The thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

To think that I 'must' maintain salvation by my own efforts is to say the cross was not enough . . .that it was not as "finished" as Christ said it was . . .and that it was incomplete.

The argument is not that I "must" manifest the outside works . . .the argument is the works manifest themselved "because" of my salvation on the inside . . .it's not about the activity on the outside . .the focus is the transformation that takes place on the inside.

The Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

The moment someone has asked for forgiveness and received Christ they have received forgiveness of their debts (sins).   So at that point they are without imputed sin.  But if they continue in sin they are worse off then if they hadn't been forgiven of their sins.  Consider the parable of the Unforgiving Servant.  The servant received forgiveness of his debt when he requested it but yet he went out and continued in the sin of unforgiving others of their debt to him and then suffered worse as a result of it.   Therefore it is very important to endure till the end.  So Salvation is very much about what must still be done.  Now consider if the servant had received forgiveness for his debts then for him to go out and do GOOD works  could not be because of debt but is because of agreement to the message of the King.

Paul

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 06:55:20 PMtrettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 06:57:22 PM

If that's where you choose to be . ..so be it.  But it seems to be overriding the power of grace . . .and understanding the relationship of a bondservant . . . Jesus died for my sin before I was even born.  I had nothing to do with it . .I wasn't there . . .not in the flesh anyway . . .in spirit, as Paul states, we were all there.  I'm not going to focus on "how" I must walk . . .I'm choosing to pursue Christ and the areas where I am weak . . . I leave them to him.  Granted, our bad choices do have consequences . . .you become an alcoholic, you become abusive to your body and perhaps those you love around you  . . .but being an alcoholic does nothing toward making me righteous or unrighteous.  

I don't maintain my salvation, I put faith in the one who has the power to do that.  My pursuit is Christ, My desire is to reproduce Christ in others . . .there is no joy in trying to live in discipline just so my salvation remains intact.  Freedom is just that . . .it's being "free" to be who I am and let Christ to the transforming in my nature as I mature in him.  He's the one working in me both to will and to do his good pleasure.  The cup does nothing to keep the contents in it . . . it does what it was created to do . . .if it has a crack in it, the cup-maker will fix that . .not the cup.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 07:30:00 PM

Jesus said  "forgive them father for they know not what they do"    It is spoken, it is finished

Are we supposed to wait till someone asks before we forgive? 

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 08:12:27 PM
Taffy, what do you do with "God is dealing graciously with all our offenses

Col 2:13 Who rouses Him from among the dead, you also being dead to the offenses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He vivifies us together jointly with Him, dealing graciously with all our offenses,

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."

Looks like a change has occurred AFTER Christ died and it is different for us of the nations.

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 07:43:39 PM
Paul :icon_flower:

FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 08:46:18 PMThe debt is Indeed paid , but it doesnt negate reaping and sowing . :icon_flower:

To whom mercy and compasion was given, when least deserved  , we give unto others.( good works)

He works in the hearts of men and  its there we are recompensed..Lest we turn liberty to licence...Tis His work In and through US, is AS i see it. :icon_flower:  call it Growing pain :icon_flower:


:icon_flower:

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 08:48:24 PM
Here's the thing . . . we're all in different rooms in our relationship with the same God.  I'm not in the same room as you . . . and you're not in the same room as I . . .there's no condemnationt here, it's just an observation.  The resistance comes when we try to push others in different rooms into ours . . .and that's what I feel you are trying to do here.  Your emphasis is on the manifestations . .whether they are works unto salvation or righteousness . . . for me it makes no difference because the works that do produce through me may or may not meet your personal standards . . . in this case, I'm guessing it's the latter . . .and as you are proving to be true, those who focus on the works, become judges over others in their works as well.  

Paul states he didn't care what anyone says about him . . .what matters to him is what God says of him . . . I'm going to rest in that.  My only concern is, brothers in Christ become wife-beaters . . .they browbeat the bride into some state of submission in order for their own personal agenda to be met.  If you believe works maintain your salvation, fine . . .please don't make that a requirement of others . .that's all I'm saying.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 08:46:54 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 07:43:39 PM
Paul :icon_flower:

FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

:icon_flower:

Hi Taffy,  thank you for actually looking up the parable and commenting on that.  Yes, you post great comments because fear is a factor.  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.  It is when we realize that we are not under God's Grace that fear should cause us to be concerned.  The servant in the parable had debt (we can all it sin) and realized the King was going to take account of his debt.  His fear caused him to ask for forgiveness and he received that mercy at least until he betrayed the King's mercy.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2009, 08:59:36 PM
What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 09:10:35 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2009, 08:59:36 PM
What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?

If the ungoldy wages wrath against you - you are to accept it and not repay.  If you in Christ, then you shouldn't feel anger, you should feel joy.

Paul

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 06:55:20 PMtrettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2009, 09:26:35 PM
]Feel joy?  Is that what it says?  Doesn't it say 'count it all joy'?  Isn't that different from feeling?

"count" it all joy [Jam 1]
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 08:35:00 PM

Now if we forgive once and for all then Jesus would not have answered seventy times seven.

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 11:07:42 PM
sigh . . out of context bud.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:08:01 PM

I see your point; I don't think the number of times we forgive is at issue persey.

You say we must ask for forgiveness.   But scripture really does not pose that responsibnility directly to us.   We are to repent, which is not the same thing.

My point with Jesus is that he showed to us  an example  that He did not wait till those who crucified him saw the error of their ways and asked for forgivness.

Likewise   "Do we wait till we are asked, before we forgive someone?

I would answer no to that question and apply that to Gods even greater ability to forgive.

Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2009, 08:59:36 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 08:46:54 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 05, 2009, 07:43:39 PM
Paul :icon_flower:

FOR ME- Its very much, a ""Reaping what we sow""

The Lord was Moved with (Mercy) and compassion upon the servant ,another who failed to do likewise to others who deserved the same ,

BUT

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Are Good works ,mercy and compassion to each man his Brother , well indeed it is. :HeartThrob:

you could say , he failed to FEAR God

.seems other failed in compassion and mercy, also failing to FEAR,

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;  

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:


Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:


Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:


Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:


Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:


Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes( understanding).

:icon_flower:

Hi Taffy,  thank you for actually looking up the parable and commenting on that.  Yes, you post great comments because fear is a factor.  Fear is the beginning of wisdom.  It is when we realize that we are not under God's Grace that fear should cause us to be concerned.  The servant in the parable had debt (we can all it sin) and realized the King was going to take account of his debt.  His fear caused him to ask for forgiveness and he received that mercy at least until he betrayed the King's mercy.

Paul

What does forgiveness mean?  Does it mean you have to continue to be a sitting duck for the one who is wronging or abusing you? Does it mean you cannot feel any anger about what was done to you?  Does it mean you can't ask for redress of grievances?  Does it mean you can't ask the other to repent?

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:23:59 PM
And you have stated the fact that Jesus did ask for the forgiveness of those that knew not what they had done.  Can you provide an example of when God ever forgived those that were not desirable of forgiveness?

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 08:13:14 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 06:55:20 PMtrettep, that is what happens when you mix what is for the Circumcision with the Uncircumcision.

We of the nations, if we sin, grace superexceeds (Rom.5:20).

You are still involved in Galatianism.

YLT:
Rom 5:20  And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,

Tony, performing His righteous works is not to be confused with the works of the circumcision.

Paul

QuoteI'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

QuoteIt wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.

QuoteThe thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

QuoteThe Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:08:01 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 08:35:00 PM

Now if we forgive once and for all then Jesus would not have answered seventy times seven.

I see your point; I don't think the number of times we forgive is at issue persey.

You say we must ask for forgiveness.   But scripture really does not pose that responsibnility directly to us.   We are to repent, which is not the same thing.

My point with Jesus is that he showed to us  an example  that He did not wait till those who crucified him saw the error of their ways and asked for forgivness.

Likewise   "Do we wait till we are asked, before we forgive someone?

I would answer no to that question and apply that to Gods even greater ability to forgive.

QuoteThere is only ONE Gospel.  There is a variety of audiences to receive that Gospel.  Peter was rebuked by Paul for showing evidence of distinction as if the Gospel was divided.  Let us not jump to the same error as Peter.

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 11:36:19 PM
Hi Nathan just a few comments on some of your posts.

QuoteI'm not so sure I'm ready to jump on this "same doctrine" band wagon just yet either.  In reading through Acts, you'll see there was a great concern about what Paul was preaching because to the Jews it was a very different doctrine than they believed in.  It got so sensitive that Paul had to drop what he was doing, go to Jerusalem and explain to them exactly what he was preaching.  And the argument there was, the Jews felt the Gentiles should physically be circumcised and Paul preached that they didn't need to, but the physical circumcision was a practice that only physical Jews followed.  But the circumcision that takes place in us is one of a spiritual nature not of a physical.

Yes and that is why Paul said there is no difference between the circumcision and non circumcision. Paul preached the SAME gospel to those of the circumcision as he did to the Gentiles and it was because he did that, that the Jews got up into his face. So if a different gospel or doctrine was to be preached to the 12 tribes what in the world was Paul doing preaching to them the SAME gospel he preached to the Gentiles?

QuoteIt wasn't what Peter was preaching that was different . .it's what he was "doing" that was in error.  He preached that Jews and Gentiles were both accepted and on the same playing field .  . . this was a huge paradigm shift because Jews always viewed themselves as "above" everyone else . . .Jesus even came to the Jews "first" and "then" the Gentiles . . .but what Peter preached and what he "did" were two different things . . and "that" is what Paul was rebuking him for.

Nathan what MESSAGE did that send to the Jews. It is not just, what we say that ministers the Gospel it is what we DO also that counts. So by example Peter was indeed preaching a different Gospel then Paul and that is why Paul withstood him and why Peter repented of doing it.

QuoteThe thread seems to be jumping quite a bit since yesterday but I wanted to respond to this . . .I used to preach the same thing . . . "You're saved by grace, but you maintain that salvation by works . . .."  That was my statement . . . makes me cringe to think about it now.

For myself I would not say salvation depends on works as works are the characteristics of our salvation. ( I am speaking of the works of faith) I see the works more as going on to the perfection of our salvation as is spoken to the overcomers.

QuoteThe Gospel shouldn't be about what one must "do".  It's about what has already been done.  At least that's where I'm at with all of it.

It should be about BOTH bro for our salvation is assured in Christ but perfection only comes by works which is the evidence of our salvation. Tis why James says faith without works is dead.



This part is addressed to all.

If as Tony states that it is a different gospel or doctrine delivered to the 12 tribes then to the gentiles, then NOTHING Peter, John and the boys write relates to the Gentiles, only Paul's writings would concern them. And Paul's writings would NOT apply to the 12 tribes.

Therefore, Peter, John and the boys writings would NOT PERTAIN to any reading here UNLESS they are of the 12 tribes and NOTHING in Paul's writings would PERTAIN to any here that are of the 12 tribes.

This would create the same DIVISION Paul refuted when people were making the argument about who they were of, some said they were of Peter (and according to Tony's understanding that would have to be of the 12 tribes) others said they were of Apollo and other of Paul ( which again according to Tony can then only be the Gentiles) and Paul refuted this by saying Is Christ DIVIDED.

It is the SAME Gospel, SAME doctrine,SAME baptisem, SAME everything else, for if it is NOT THE SAME then the middle wall of partition has NOT been broken down.

So than if Peter and the boys Gospel is ONLY for the 12 tribes then these scriptures have NOTHING to do with YOU unless YOU are of the 12 tribes.

1 Peter 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,  5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Yet how many of YOU that are NOT of the 12 tribes has had their faith tried in the fire.

Here another one that would not apply to YOU unless YOU were of the 12 tribes if the Gospel is divided in this way.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.  

YOU CANNOT be one of these LIVELY STONE if this ONLY PERTAINS to the 12 tribes.

For myself I want the WHOLE enchilada spoken throughout the WHOLE of scripture, I don't believe in the this is for me and this is for you division of the Gospel, the Gospel does not set UP divisions it breaks them DOWN.
God bless

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:34:10 PM
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.

Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."


Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 11:35:00 PM

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:46:30 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:34:10 PM
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.

Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."


Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'

Hi Paul,

God uses Chastisements to bring about that desire for forgiveness.  But none of those verses say that God ever gives forgiveness unto those that don't desire it.  I believe that God's Wrath will cause the desire for forgiveness and a longing for the Goodness that is God.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:46:30 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:34:10 PM
Ps 130:3 If You should keep account of depravities, O Yah, O Yahweh, who should stand?
Ps 130:4 For with You is pardon That You may be devoutly feared.

Ac 5:31 This Inaugurator and Saviour, God exalts to His right hand, to give repentance to Israel and the pardon of sins.

Ac 5:32 We' are witnesses to these declarations, as well as the holy spirit which God gives to those yielding to Him."


Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn them about from darkness into light and from the authority of Satan on to God, for them to get a pardon of sins and an allotment among those who have been hallowed by faith that is into in Me.'

Hi Paul,

God uses Chastisements to bring about that desire for forgiveness.  But none of those verses say that God ever gives forgiveness unto those that don't desire it.  I believe that God's Wrath will cause the desire for forgiveness and a longing for the Goodness that is God.

Paul

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 11:53:25 PM
Hi Paul Jesus while on the cross said forgive them for they know not what they do.

Those who crucified Him never asked for His forgiveness yet He still forgave them.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:52:07 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 11:35:00 PM

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

That is what God is showing us in His Word Tony.  Faith with works is the access to Grace.  Grace is what saves us.  Again, there is no such thing as dead Faith (Faith without Good works) that can provide access to Grace.  Tony that is the message you want me to believe it seems.  You want me to believe that one can just believe and say "Lord, Lord" and be saved.  The fruit of the branches is inspected and what bears no fruit is pruned from the vine.  To believe what your saying would mean that a branch that will not bear fruit is acceptable to God.  The belief that one can be saved without doing Good Works is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 05, 2009, 11:57:36 PM


What scripture are you referring to that says God will not forgive unless we ask? 

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:58:30 PM

Quote from: pneuma on March 05, 2009, 11:53:25 PM
Hi Paul Jesus while on the cross said forgive them for they know not what they do.

Those who crucified Him never asked for His forgiveness yet He still forgave them.

Yes pneuma, your correct, I should have clarified that more.  God does forgive those that knew not what they do which I stated in an earlier post.  My request should rather be to show evidence from God's Word where He forgives those that willfully sin (knowing what they do is sin).

Thank you pneuma.

Paul

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 12:01:08 AMThe doctrine of Nicolaitans had to do with elders (such as pastor and teacher types) lording it over the laity.

QuoteI haven't followed the rest of the thread, but these are good observations, pneuma.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we tend to make the same kind of mistakes as to what is for "believers" and "non-believers", but that's a whole other can o' worms.

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:03:21 AM
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 12:11:17 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:03:21 AM
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Pneuma, I believe that Law is still relevant - not the Law in the letter but the Law of God still abounds in Spirit.  I believe we establish that Law by Faith in Christ Jesus.  Not the letter of the law.  I also believe the letter of the law was a demonstration of the flesh.  Many will claim that the Law is done away with.  But only the letter is done away with.  For if the Law were done away with then righteousness (which is obedience) is also done away with.  So death is the practice of the letter (or as I would say also the flesh) and Life is the practice of the Faith.  And I agree what the law was our schoolmaster as God's Word shows us.

I may start another thread if there isn't one already on the topic of the Law because  it is so important to the issue of works.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 12:01:46 AM
 Those that willfully sin are those that don't receive forgiveness if they should continue in such sin after they already received forgiveness for that sin.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:14:28 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2009, 11:07:42 PM
sigh . . out of context bud.

Please be more specific.  Give us some help here.  Blanket statements that something is out of context are viewed as more trollish then helpful.

Paul

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:23:36 AM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 12:11:17 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:03:21 AM
Hi Paul I agree there is a difference willful sinning is the sin unto death and death is the only remedy for it. ( just so you know what I mean I see the DEATH as the LAW, which is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.)

Pneuma, I believe that Law is still relevant - not the Law in the letter but the Law of God still abounds in Spirit.  I believe we establish that Law by Faith in Christ Jesus.  Not the letter of the law.  I also believe the letter of the law was a demonstration of the flesh.  Many will claim that the Law is done away with.  But only the letter is done away with.  For if the Law were done away with then righteousness (which is obedience) is also done away with.  So death is the practice of the letter (or as I would say also the flesh) and Life is the practice of the Faith.  And I agree what the law was our schoolmaster as God's Word shows us.

I may start another thread if there isn't one already on the topic of the Law because  it is so important to the issue of works.

Paul

Hi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 11:35:00 PMThe issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

• Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

• Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

• Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

• Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

• Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; go get circumised.

• Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye love your neighbor as yourself, Christ shall profit you nothing.

• Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that loves his neighbor, that he is a debtor to do the whole law

• Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither love availeth any thing, nor hate; but faith which worketh by being circumcised.

QuoteGalatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; go get circumised.


Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye love your neighbor as yourself, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that loves his neighbor, that he is a debtor to do the whole law


Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither love availeth any thing, nor hate; but faith which worketh by being circumcised.

Quote from: Taffy on March 06, 2009, 12:58:14 AMBOB..STOP IT MAN...,I didnt read the part where ya said ya changed it.... :laughing7: Drrrrr

Just for a Mo, IT WAS TIME for some more Tabs,... :icon_king:

Quote from: bobf on March 06, 2009, 01:03:37 AM

Quote from: Taffy on March 06, 2009, 12:58:14 AMBOB..STOP IT MAN...,I didnt read the part where ya said ya changed it.... :laughing7: Drrrrr

Just for a Mo, IT WAS TIME for some more Tabs,... :icon_king:

LOL... those were kind of fun.  I esp. liked the last one.

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:23:36 AMHi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 12:31:16 AM
ok, gotcha there,  what scripture do you use to say this so I can do some studying?

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 01:14:23 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 12:23:36 AMHi Paul I agree with you about the law bro, but as to starting a new thread on the law you might want to check with the Mods first as it is one of the topic that is taboo here or at least was.

Oh, I didn't know that.  Why would a subject of God's Word be taboo?  Any mods want to explain?

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 12:31:33 AM

I'm short in response because I really don't want to debate or argue . . . I've shared what I see, you don't see it . . .fine . ..so I move on . .or try to . .

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 01:09:51 AM
:cloud9: As a side note; Nicolaitans is derived from two Greek words: "nikao", meaning to conquer or rule, and "laos", meaning people as in "laity". When joined, the two words mean people conquerors or rulers.

He further adds to the meaning of this in his response to the church of Pergamos, in which He mentions the prophet Balaam, who got the children of Israel to bring a curse on themselves by having sex with temple prostitutes in their war camp. Balaam was a prophet for hire; think gainsaying spirit, a spirit that speaks for personal gain. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 01:09:51 AM
:cloud9: As a side note; Nicolaitans is derived from two Greek words: "nikao", meaning to conquer or rule, and "laos", meaning people as in "laity". When joined, the two words mean people conquerors or rulers.

He further adds to the meaning of this in his response to the church of Pergamos, in which He mentions the prophet Balaam, who got the children of Israel to bring a curse on themselves by having sex with temple prostitutes in their war camp. Balaam was a prophet for hire; think gainsaying spirit, a spirit that speaks for personal gain. Blessings....

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 01:33:31 AM

Thanks for confirming (indirectly) what I said, Card...

That's what I was talking about, Paul.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 10:43:20 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 05, 2009, 09:26:35 PM
]Feel joy?  Is that what it says?  Doesn't it say 'count it all joy'?  Isn't that different from feeling?

"count" it all joy [Jam 1]
G2233
ἡγέομαι
hēgeomai
hayg-eh'-om-ahee
Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Paul

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 02:37:43 AM

  No ONE..absolutely no-one has a right to Lord it over

  anyones faith in Christ. in regard to these required 'works"



  what? when? how?  let's see...as a jehovah's wittness you

  needed to attend 5 meetings a week and go out in feild

  service a minimum of 12 hours a month to have an OK standing

   one little old lady went into congestive heart failure twice in

   a month and still got in her 12 hours so what's your excuse?

   I was actually subjected to these parameters of 'works'

   required...but even if I did do this my salvation was still not

  assured.

  It's a matter of conscience people...something between the

beleiver and God and the Holy spirit.. Other's would be hard put

  to judge anyone's works,I would think, especially since Jesus

said to pray in private and not blow your horn when you do

give gifts of mercy.


1Cor 13;4   LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS

   God IS LOVE         LOVE NEVER FAILS


   If you haven't realized that by the blotting out of all

tresspasses on the cross for the whole world

  YOU'LL NEVER KNOW IT


   LOVE ENDURES ALL THINGS

  if someone should remain in a state of sin[don't we all]

  until the death of their flesh...LOVE WOULD CALL THEM

    OUT OF THEIR GRAVES.SOS 8;6


  Some people need to quit worrying so much about what their

brothers are doing..or are failing to do,

and show some concern for their own actions.


  IF YOUR CONSCIENCE CONVICTS YOU FOR NOT DOING

SOMETHING."some work".YOU NEED TO HEED IT

  If the Holy Spirit directs you to do a work,heed it


  But, you don't have a right to have your conscience

   Lord it over anyone else .

  Some have one hour of work..others a whole day

  some's work is in the cool of the day..without much effort

  or suffering or sweat...some's work make their tongues stick

  to the roof of their mouths


    John 6;28,29  Then they asked him" What must we do to do

    the works God requires?'   Jesus answered, 'the work of God

  is this;TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT"


WE LIVE AND BREATHE AND EXIST IN A CONTINUAL STATE

                OF GRACE


   one man when healed was told to 'go home and tell all your

  family what God has done for you" that was the work assigned

  to that man...BY JESUS HIMSELF
   

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 02:38:50 AM
Again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are feeling "pleasure" at getting robbed, punched in the face, reviled, or woefully abused.  Let's not get masochistic here.  It is more a comment about what this is all adding up to in the sense of understanding rather than a feeling.

"take pleasure in"

G2106
εὐδοκέω
eudokeō
yoo-dok-eh'-o
From G2095 and G1380; to think well of, that is, approve (an act); specifically to approbate (a person or thing): - think good, (be well) please (-d), be the good (have, take) pleasure, be willing.



The other piece of this is that Paul is suffering for a cause--that also is different from somebody walking up to you in the street and punching you in the face for no reason other than they are mean or they feel like it.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 02:38:19 AM

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 01:33:31 AM

Thanks for confirming (indirectly) what I said, Card...

That's what I was talking about, Paul.

Doc, I'm saying that a doctrine is not just given to elders.

Paul

Quoteelse Satan can even wear you out doing "good works" that the Father has not ordained that YOU personally do.

Quote from: trettep on March 05, 2009, 11:52:07 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 05, 2009, 11:35:00 PM

The issue is not performing righteous works, the issue is you say if works are not performed then one is not saved. That is Galationism.

That is what God is showing us in His Word Tony.  Faith with works is the access to Grace.  Grace is what saves us.  Again, there is no such thing as dead Faith (Faith without Good works) that can provide access to Grace.  Tony that is the message you want me to believe it seems.  You want me to believe that one can just believe and say "Lord, Lord" and be saved.  The fruit of the branches is inspected and what bears no fruit is pruned from the vine.  To believe what your saying would mean that a branch that will not bear fruit is acceptable to God.  The belief that one can be saved without doing Good Works is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Paul

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 03:17:26 AM
:cloud9: There are works of the Spirit and there are works of the flesh, and there are even works in the natural (such as feeding the poor). As many as are led by the SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God. Jesus's Spiritual ministry (works of the Spirit) did not start until the Spirit baptized Him, and neither does ours.

Works of the flesh are like laciviousness, lust, coveting, ect.
Natural works are like feeding and clothing the poor, but even these have a Spirit origin, else Satan can even wear you out doing "good works" that the Father has not ordained that YOU personally do. The steps of the righteous are ordered by the Lord, and He orders them through His Spirit.

Works of the Spirit, then are not only Him using you in the gifts of the Spirit, healing, deliverance, ect., but are WHATEVER He tells you do. God has an order and His order is; WHATEVER GOD WANTS.

Hearing Him then, becomes of paramount importance, because to hear to God, is not how we think of it. To hear, means to hear AND OBEY (works). This is why it says be not just a hearer of the Word, but a doer also. Blessings....

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 03:22:32 AM

Wha? I don't understand your point here.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 04:11:03 AM
The works of the Spirit have been here far before we knew of Jesus.  There are only two types of works I see in scripture which would be those of the flesh (which includes the letter) and those of Faith (Christ's works). Paul

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 03:52:40 AM
  What I'm saying is you don't have the right to judge

 anyone as it pertains to any works . It's not your buisiness

 What is your buisiness is to see that YOU follow Him.

  John 21;23  Jesus was instructing Peter in reference to

 the 'work'  in his position...when Peter was concerned about

what would be the assignment[or work] of another...Jesus

 replied 'IF I want him to remain alive until I return,

     WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?

      YOU MUST FOLLOW ME"

  Now if someone does 'fail' to do a work of the Holy spirits

  direction...like the parable teaches in regard to the talents

  I'm sure they would suffer loss, but loose their salvation ?

   for I am convinced that nothing can seperate us



  Have you NOT HEARD ABOUT THE SALVATION OF ALL?


                                              Sheila

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 04:17:23 AM
:cloud9: I didn't mean to imply that they weren't here before we knew Jesus, as obviously God's Spirit moved in myriads of ways before that. I know what you're saying, and if you analyze it, the natural works I mentioned were also contained in the letter. Blessings....

Quote from: Tony N on March 06, 2009, 04:02:31 AM
If you just read Paul who is our apostle of the nations then you will not continue making such theological mistakes. We are to follow Paul, not Peter, James or John.

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
Paul, I personally don't see those verses saying that without the obedience there would be no faith and grace, and that we wouldn't be saved...as I understand, when we're truly saved, the works of obedience are a result of that....as He leads, guides, corrects us as sons...His grace saves and keeps us..."for by grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves"..."

Gal.3:2-3 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2009, 05:11:33 AM
Hi Paul.  No, not in this particular verse, I don't see it saying that.  I think we could make that next step if that's how we believed, but just looking at that verse, I don't see that's what it is saying.  I could be wrong, I will look at it more closely, do a little more study on that particular passage of scripture.  Thanks, James.

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 05:21:53 AM

  He died for us when we were yet in our sins..an enemy

.what kind of obediance is that?

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 05:33:04 AM


  Really,rather   CAN LOVE AND GRACE FAIL IN IT'S WORK

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 04:12:20 AM

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 03:22:32 AM

Wha? I don't understand your point here.

Doc, you don't think the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was only applicable to the elders do you?

Paul

Quote
Jabcat, you don't see where it says that Grace was received for obedience?  That means that obedience had to come before the receipt of Grace.

Paul

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2009, 08:12:50 AM
And that's how I was seeing it and didn't express it very well...you have a way Doc, of saying what I'm saying or thinking, but better..stop that  :laughing7:.  Anyway, yeah, what I see there is "not so we're saved, but more so since we're saved"...

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 02:42:42 AM

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 02:37:43 AM

  No ONE..absolutely no-one has a right to Lord it over

  anyones faith in Christ. in regard to these required 'works"



  what? when? how?  let's see...as a jehovah's wittness you

  needed to attend 5 meetings a week and go out in feild

  service a minimum of 12 hours a month to have an OK standing

   one little old lady went into congestive heart failure twice in

   a month and still got in her 12 hours so what's your excuse?

   I was actually subjected to these parameters of 'works'

   required...but even if I did do this my salvation was still not

  assured.

  It's a matter of conscience people...something between the

beleiver and God and the Holy spirit.. Other's would be hard put

  to judge anyone's works,I would think, especially since Jesus

said to pray in private and not blow your horn when you do

give gifts of mercy.


1Cor 13;4   LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS

   God IS LOVE         LOVE NEVER FAILS


   If you haven't realized that by the blotting out of all

tresspasses on the cross for the whole world

  YOU'LL NEVER KNOW IT


   LOVE ENDURES ALL THINGS

  if someone should remain in a state of sin[don't we all]

  until the death of their flesh...LOVE WOULD CALL THEM

    OUT OF THEIR GRAVES.SOS 8;6


  Some people need to quit worrying so much about what their

brothers are doing..or are failing to do,

and show some concern for their own actions.


  IF YOUR CONSCIENCE CONVICTS YOU FOR NOT DOING

SOMETHING."some work".YOU NEED TO HEED IT

  If the Holy Spirit directs you to do a work,heed it


  But, you don't have a right to have your conscience

   Lord it over anyone else .

  Some have one hour of work..others a whole day

  some's work is in the cool of the day..without much effort

  or suffering or sweat...some's work make their tongues stick

  to the roof of their mouths


    John 6;28,29  Then they asked him" What must we do to do

    the works God requires?'   Jesus answered, 'the work of God

  is this;TO BELEIVE IN THE ONE HE HAS SENT"


WE LIVE AND BREATHE AND EXIST IN A CONTINUAL STATE

                OF GRACE


   one man when healed was told to 'go home and tell all your

  family what God has done for you" that was the work assigned

  to that man...BY JESUS HIMSELF
   

Doing the works of Christ are required for salvation.  Are you saying that isn't so?

Paul

Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2009, 06:11:43 AM

 I beleive it can..... doubting Thomas..put no faith in the

 risen Lord  ' no work of beleif there' no exercizing of faith

 there in that account...but He was not denied access to Jesus-

 grace extended it's hand first...same story with Peter walking

 on the water.

  There is a lot of dead faith on the earth...it is a work of

GRACE and Holy Spirit to quicken it.

  What do you think dead faith is but unbeleif...

 Do you not know that all have been concluded in unbeleif..?

  The works follow GRACE...they do not always precede...

  except in the case of Jesus Christ WHOSE OBEDIENCE

     WORKED THE GRACE OF GOD TO ALL WHO DID NOT

         DO THE WORKS OF OBEDIENCE.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:08:25 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
Paul, I personally don't see those verses saying that without the obedience there would be no faith and grace, and that we wouldn't be saved...as I understand, when we're truly saved, the works of obedience are a result of that....as He leads, guides, corrects us as sons...His grace saves and keeps us..."for by grace are you saved, and that not of yourselves"..."

Gal.3:2-3 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Jabcat, you don't see where it says that Grace was received for obedience?  That means that obedience had to come before the receipt of Grace.

Paul

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 08:07:49 AM

I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.



Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 03:55:39 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:55:01 PM

Quote from: Doc on March 06, 2009, 08:07:49 AM

I'm giving the definition of what the doctrine of the Nicolaitans was. You seem to be saying it's something completely different. The doctrine of the Nicolaitans had nothing to do with works, at least not in the context you're talking about.



Not to jump in for Jab here, but it's exactly the reverse, Paul. We receive grace so that we CAN obey...

Doc, let's do this.  Let's start another thread on the Nicolaitans and we can present our sources.  As to getting it in reverse then that would include the Apostles Paul - surely you don't believe that.  It was Paul that tells us that Faith is the access to Grace.   

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 03:55:39 PMUnwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 04:40:00 PM
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:01:09 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 04:40:00 PM
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:01:09 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 04:40:00 PM
Absolutely guys . . .faith is the active ingredient to salvation . . .not the outward manifestation of works.  I really like that verse you used there with Romans 7 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: He's saying he's dimensional . . .I never saw that before . . .but he's taking the laws of God . .not Moses or Old Covenant, but the laws of God and applying them to himself inwardly, instead of applying to working and manifesting them outwardly. 

Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:00:49 PM
So faith accesses grace, grace leads to obedience, and obedience leads to works--is that how it goes?

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:04:43 PM
So you're basing willful sin on one verse . . .

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:05:28 PM
Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:10:41 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:00:49 PM
So faith accesses grace, grace leads to obedience, and obedience leads to works--is that how it goes?

Grace is what saves us via Faith.  James implies that Faith without works can not save.  

Jas 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Molly what your proposing is that Faith without works does save.  Let me make it clear to you.  That if Faith without works can save then it SURELY HAS PROFIT.  James is obviously disputing that.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:06:16 PMHe doesn't seem to follow it the way the Pharisees follow it--for instance, all his Sabbath shenanigans.

But, then, he's the Lord of the Sabbath, --he can do anything he wants lol.

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:17:04 PM
What bothers me with your line of questioning Paul is that your emphasis is on the natural manifestation rather than the spiritual transformation . . . and being a transparent person (purposefully) my frustrations with that tend to spill over into my tone as I post.  No condemnation mind you   . . .  but it just appears you're set on proving something that just seems to be of little relevance when pursuing Christ. . .again, this is just my personal opinion . . .I'm not trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:15:46 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:05:28 PM
Nathan, do  you believe that Jesus followed the Law?

Paul

Sigh . . . I'll bite . . .

No.

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:16:53 PMI'm not proposing anything.  I'm just trying to figure out how it works.  I've been following your posts.

You point out that Paul receives grace from faith leading to obedience.   And later, obedience leads to works.

So the starting point is faith--which is counterintuitive, but I think that is correct.  That is why James says that faith without works is dead, because faith inevitably leads to works.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:21:56 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:17:04 PM
What bothers me with your line of questioning Paul is that your emphasis is on the natural manifestation rather than the spiritual transformation . . . and being a transparent person (purposefully) my frustrations with that tend to spill over into my tone as I post.  No condemnation mind you   . . .  but it just appears you're set on proving something that just seems to be of little relevance when pursuing Christ. . .again, this is just my personal opinion . . .I'm not trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Nathan, many don't like my position.  The majority doesn't like my position but that is what I expect.  I don't actually consider it MY position.  I believe it is the position of Jesus Christ that we are to His works.  I believe to preach that we can be saved without the requirement of His works is blasphemous.

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:25:30 PM
That explains it . . .I preach that we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not in the flesh . . .I preach that our "minds" are always at emnity against God.  I preach that the flesh profiteth nothing . . .all of which I believe are also Scriptural.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:24:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:16:53 PMI'm not proposing anything.  I'm just trying to figure out how it works.  I've been following your posts.

You point out that Paul receives grace from faith leading to obedience.   And later, obedience leads to works.

So the starting point is faith--which is counterintuitive, but I think that is correct.  That is why James says that faith without works is dead, because faith inevitably leads to works.

Can we both agree then that Faith without works has no profit whatsoever as James shows?  If that be the case then can we see that Faith with works (His works - not our own or those of the law),  provide access to Grace?

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:31:09 PM
One of the issues of works is that it is humanized into a perception of what we think everyone should do.

Churches are full of this nonsense,  you should do this, that and the other thing and if someone doesn't see you doing what they think is right, then they have some right to correct you and steer you to doing what is right.

Faith without works is dead.   It is a statement of fact.   It is not about me looking at my neighbor and thinking, "boy, they say they love Christ but I never see them doing anything"

No, has nothing to do with that.   It is assurance that God gives faith and it will not return void, because it  "works" to reconcile.

So even the most dispicable person to us may have their doctrine or theology all twisted and messed up, but that mustard seed is still written on their heart and as much as Christians do not like it God works that faith for his purpose as well.

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:34:37 PMYes, James is telling us that if we have faith it will lead to certain things--the end point of which is works.

But, in following your posts, there seems to be a progression, that is, one comes before the other--are you not meaning to say that?

That's why I put it in that order:  faith-->grace--->obedience--->works.

In other words, you are not going to have works without the others proceding it first?

I'm not sure how you then conclude that works access grace, though.  It seems grace comes directly from faith.

Maybe you mean that works prove access to grace?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:28:36 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
Ok, Nathan, then tell me how Jesus was without sin and also how was He righteous if He didn't follow the Law.

Paul

Jesus was without sin because he was not bound by the law.  It is the law that gives sin it's strength.  Following the law does NOT give you righteousness.  You are righteous because God declared it over you.  Abraham was declared as righteous because God declared it.  God declared it because Abraham "believed" . . .there's your works . . .it's simply believing in the one who fulfilled what you're seemingly trying to tell me I must now follow.  If Jesus already fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Christ, then there is no need for me to also follow that which is already fulfilled.

QuoteJesus tells us to know them by their fruits.  Don't you think He is going to do the same?

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:31:33 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 05:25:30 PM
That explains it . . .I preach that we're called to walk in the spirit . . .not in the flesh . . .I preach that our "minds" are always at emnity against God.  I preach that the flesh profiteth nothing . . .all of which I believe are also Scriptural.

Nathan, the message I am preaching is the works of the Spirit not the flesh.  Remember, I said these are His works not our that we are to perform.  Those that have Christ have a different mind.  They have the mind of Christ in them:

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Paul

Quote from: Taffy on March 06, 2009, 05:38:58 PM
Dont we through HIM in us and US in HIm establish the Royal Law OF which HE IS. = Law of Faith , Law of liberty, Law of Righteousness, Law of Life, Law of the Spirit , Law of God ,if my memory serves.

Its His works through  us made manifest , but its a progression , fruit takes time to develop , its not grown instantly.. :icon_flower:

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM
 If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Quote from: chuckt on March 06, 2009, 05:39:22 PMHUH?

friend,

Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


Paul

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

Quote from: Tony N on March 06, 2009, 05:45:45 PM
The apostle Paul wrote:
Rom 5:9 "Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

Also, you didn't finish what came after Romans 6:16:

Rom 6:16-18  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?  (17)  Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over."  (18)  Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."

We are not enslaved to Sin but to Righteousness. The obedience for righteousness is the obedience of faith or in other word "faith's obedience" which is believe God concerning His Son's death, burial and resurrection.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:35:08 PM
Jesus tells us to know them by their fruits.  Don't you think He is going to do the same?

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:40:36 PMYes, a different mind, not the carnal mind, but the mind of Christ.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:37:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:34:37 PMYes, James is telling us that if we have faith it will lead to certain things--the end point of which is works.

But, in following your posts, there seems to be a progression, that is, one comes before the other--are you not meaning to say that?

That's why I put it in that order:  faith-->grace--->obedience--->works.

In other words, you are not going to have works without the others proceding it first?

I'm not sure how you then conclude that works access grace, though.  It seems grace comes directly from faith.

Maybe you mean that works prove access to grace?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.

Here would be the order Molly:

Faith with (works = obedience) which accesses Grace.

Consider also that once your in Grace and continue in obedience that your growing in Grace. 

Paul

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:47:47 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 06, 2009, 05:45:45 PM
The apostle Paul wrote:
Rom 5:9 "Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."

Also, you didn't finish what came after Romans 6:16:

Rom 6:16-18  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?  (17)  Now thanks be to God that you were slaves of Sin, yet you obey from the heart the type of teaching to which you were given over."  (18)  Now, being freed from Sin, you are enslaved to Righteousness."

We are not enslaved to Sin but to Righteousness. The obedience for righteousness is the obedience of faith or in other word "faith's obedience" which is believe God concerning His Son's death, burial and resurrection.

What part of what I said is in contradiction to those verses.  Please be specific.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:50:08 PMOh.

So it's faith+works (obedience) ---> grace?

That makes grace the endpoint.

Do you think we can be obedient without grace, then?  You mean because the obedience comes from having Christ within us?

Jesus is sometimes surprised (it seems to me) by the people who are healed--that is, he is surprised they have the faith to access grace.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:51:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:49:50 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 05:40:36 PMYes, a different mind, not the carnal mind, but the mind of Christ.

Yes, Molly.  So if we have the mind of Christ and Christ had no sin - can we really say that if we continue to practice sin that we are of Christ? - the answer is no.  We would be the servant of sin if we practiced sin.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:51:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 06:02:31 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:51:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul

We can't see the heart, but we can see the fruit.  That's why he tells us to look for the fruit.  By the fruit, you will know the man.

A fig tree does not produce thistles.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 06:12:29 PM

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 06:02:31 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:51:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

Since Jesus talks about matters of the heart which is not readily seen by you, how does that factor in to the equation?

It is what comes out of the heart that defiles a man.  That is what Jesus is inspecting.

Paul

We can't see the heart, but we can see the fruit.  That's why he tells us to look for the fruit.  By the fruit, you will know the man.

A fig tree does not produce thistles.

Examples.    I can read scripture and read  "you shall know them by their fruit" and people can repeat it and repeat it. 

Examples please of this thing that you cannot see in the heart but you will know the man by.

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 06:19:56 PM
Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth)



22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

--Gal 5

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 06:30:14 PM
What is the purpose of the observation?  So you can go tell them their fruitless?  Or so that you yourself use wisdom and love as you approach them . . .and knowing they may be fruitless, you don't receive something from them that would cause you're own relationship to stumble . . .

This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 06:30:14 PM
This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 03:55:39 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 05:21:56 PM
I believe to preach that we can be saved without the requirement of His works is blasphemous.

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 07:48:44 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 03:55:39 PM

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 03:49:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
:cloud9: Perhaps what is needed here Paul, is a clarification of what salvation means to you? That might sound simple, but there are varying viewpoints, on how/what it is that is accomplished and when. Blessings....

Cardinal, first off, I believe salvation is to be saved from our sins which lead to death.  I believe that once we have Faith then we receive the Spirit and once we have the Spirit that Christ will overcome our flesh to prevent us from further incurring sin.  If we should stumble and unwillfully sin then I believe God shall forgive us.  If we should endure this way until the end then we shall be saved (to not have imputed sin).  But should we continue in sin then I believe we will reap God's Wrath.  I believe we can't serve to masters.  Some here believe that Good Works are not required.  Paul says this:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul

Unwillfully sin?  Really?  That may sound good on paper bro, but when I sin . . .I'm not doing it unwillfully . . .it's a choice . ..I will it.  If I didn't will it . . then I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Romans 7:15
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 

Hi Nathan, was Paul willfully sinning here or did he sin against/unwilfully his will?

All sin falls under two types, sins that are not unto death and sins that are unto death.

Willfully sinning is a sin unto death. The sins we do unwillfully are not unto death.

So yes unwillfull sin is in the scriptures.

Quote from: PaulMolly your right, we shouldn't just put up with a lie,  but fruit is there in the workman.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 06:12:29 PMExamples.    I can read scripture and read  "you shall know them by their fruit" and people can repeat it and repeat it. 

Examples please of this thing that you cannot see in the heart but you will know the man by.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 06:23:14 PMThank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Quote from: Nathan on March 06, 2009, 06:30:14 PM
What is the purpose of the observation?  So you can go tell them their fruitless?  Or so that you yourself use wisdom and love as you approach them . . .and knowing they may be fruitless, you don't receive something from them that would cause you're own relationship to stumble . . .

This idea that we're to make it our business and calling to point out the fruitlessness in others, has red flags all over it.

QuoteTo say that Paul sinned against his will is to say that sin renders you unconscious and takes over you like it's some ominous evil that we have no power over.  When Paul sinned, he chose to.  And it bothered him because he knew better, but still CHOSE to do it

QuoteThat's why I think understanding John the Baptist's proclamation about Jesus taking away the sin of the world is so profound.  It's because in the world, sin still manifests . .but to those who are in Christ . .the sin has no affect . .the power of it has no affect because GRACE ABOUNDS.  And the sooner we get our attention off of the falling down, and turn to the Christ who resurrects . .the sooner we'll get into the freedom of life and reproduction rather than doom and gloom of reproof.

QuoteI pursue patterns in Scripture . . .if I see the pattern, I can then understand the principle.  The pattern that I see with this in Scripture is clearly with the children of Israel in the land of Goshen . . .the plagues came and they were in the middle of it all, but God protected them from all of it.  Noah . . .the rains came, the flood manifested, and Noah, being in the middle of it . . .was protected by the ark of Christ.  So . . .my spirit is in the center of my flesh, my flesh is subject to the natural . . I get colds, the flu, back aches . . .my bones break and my flesh bleeds . . .but regardless of what my natural body goes through . .regardless of what my outer man experiences . . .my inner man is hid in Christ.

QuoteBoth are manifesting in the natural realm . . .both are called "works" and for me, they could be the exact same activity . . the difference is, the motives of the one doing them.

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 08:25:15 PM
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Quote from: Taffy on March 06, 2009, 09:04:56 PM

Quote from: pneuma on March 06, 2009, 08:25:15 PM
Question to all

Do you believe all works are the same?

Do you believe there are works of the law and works of faith?

I ask because what seems to be taking place in this thread, is people keep pointing back to works of the law when those of us who believe in works have stated repeatedly that we are talking about spiritual works, works of faith, works of Jesus etc.  It as though some  can't seem to differentiate between the two.

Jesus said greater WORKS shall ye do because I go to the Father.

Pretty plain imo that WORKS are to be done by us through Christ, yet many here seem to be saying we don't have to do WORKs.

So a simple way to end this debate is to ask all here this question

Do you believe we are to do the greater WORKS Jesus mentioned?

If you answer YES to this question, I don't see how you then can make an argument against what Paul, Bob and I have been saying.  For if you make an argument against what we are saying then you are not differentiating between the two laws.

Scott :icon_flower:

Those who are His are Annoited unto works, His works through US made manifest, for the fullfilment of His purpose, it seems babes are very much stuck in the Earth purposing themselves with the Literal..ie fundaments...I see a Cycle and progression  :icon_flower:

.

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 08:48:19 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 06, 2009, 06:23:14 PMThank you.  I have friends that exhibit these traits but according to many would not be considered christians.  The latter part of verse 23 is the key that gets ignored.

Paul, did those friends atrribute those good things to Christ or did they attribute them not to Christ.  Because if they attributed them to Christ then they indeed were Good things but if they didn't then they robbed Christ of His Glory and thus they were not Good things.  Christ is the Copyright holder of all GOOD deeds that men can perform.

Paul

Quote from: trettep on March 06, 2009, 09:11:23 PM
Some preferred the equation representation to understanding this.  So let's go that approach and see who disagrees.  Here is the equation that I understand:

Faith + works (not ours but His) -> (recursive = Growing in Grace) -> salvation!

What this equation above means that when we have Faith and Good works we access Grace.  And when we are in Grace and continue to have Faith + works we will Grow in Grace.  And if we endure and continue in this process till the end, then we shall receive salvation.

Paul

Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2009, 09:09:37 PMChrist is the copyright holder of all good deeds done by men.

I love it!