my question is.........

[Zeek]

"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.

I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.

cp"


What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are".  It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.   

I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.   

To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ.  My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God.  I am HIS.  Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner.  My identity is HIM. 

I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me.  My response is PRAISE and THANKS. 

I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them.  They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me. 

If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them".  You are the one aware of those objects.  Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me.  The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist. 

So when you do wrong like, again, speeding in your car or shoplifting, who is it that is responsible for this wrong doing? Who pays the fine? Is it you and not you at the same time?

Again, I am being very serious here. I think we are on to something I want to know.

For me, I too am not really a citizen of this flesh yet I am me. I am a flesh and blood person as well as a spirit born person. I am not only aware, as you say, of my bad actions, I feel responsible for them too.

In some way I have to identify with the flesh yet for all that I don't deny Christ, at least I don't think I do. I am flesh and blood and I am born of the spirit. Again, the diamond thing. I just can't see it as one way totally. It is a mixture of many things in one.

cp

it is sin in me, not me

OK Zeek but is this what you tell the police officer that pulls you over.....'Sorry officer, I didn't really do this it is the sin in me.' This may seem like a silly question but you get my drift.

In other words, what do you mean by it is the sin in you.

cp

works every time.  I only get warnings.   :grin:

Well, i'm wore out for now.  To the best of my ability i've described what i believe to be true.  circumcision of the heart, veil being torn, etc. is the removal of the flesh.  I truly don't see myself as attached to "the flesh" or seeing the flesh having any authority.  The authority was under law. 

I do know that peace and joy are mine despite some very hard times in my life, and it is a HE who I know. 

blessings.

Z

[claypot]

Amen and amen Z. Get some rest.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, if you want my opinion from experience, the cause of sin is a spirit in your flesh that you. by your captive will, give place to. Satan, in the form of these, take our will captive. In the beginning of my walk, the Lord made that life in me, that ALL mankind has this in their flesh because of the fall, in that Satan was cast down to the dust realm. So for this reason, all sin is common (or held in common) to man. This is a great leveler God established, that none should think more highly of himself, because ALL have these things in their heart to deal with.

So; this is why He said if you lust after a woman in your heart, you've already committed adultery. Because that spirit is in the heart of man. So is murder. Now you say, but I've never killed anyone. But if you ever hated your brother, then the same is a murderer. Satan was a murderer from the beginning, so where was Satan?

This is why it says to work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Deliverance there is the same Greek word that is translated elsewhere as, salvation. Salvation then is being delivered from unfruitful works of darkness (the other spirits). Christ's nature and person is the fruit that is supposed to be manifested, in us "trees".

He said I give unto you power over snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. When's the last time you took authority over a literal snake and scorpion? Me neither. But rest assured that when I recognize an unclean thought I make sure it's not coming from within first, before I take authority over anything trying to take my peace from without. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we like the priests, are to trim our wicks daily. Blessings....

[Zeek]

:cloud9: Well, if you want my opinion from experience, the cause of sin is a spirit in your flesh that you. by your captive will, give place to. Satan, in the form of these, take our will captive. In the beginning of my walk, the Lord made that life in me, that ALL mankind has this in their flesh because of the fall, in that Satan was cast down to the dust realm. So for this reason, all sin is common (or held in common) to man. This is a great leveler God established, that none should more highly of himself, because ALL have these things in their heart to deal with.

So; this is why He said if you lust after a woman in your heart, you've already committed adultery. Because that spirit is in the heart of man. So is murder. Now you say, but I've never killed anyone. But if you ever hated your brother, then the same is a murderer. Satan was a murderer from the beginning, so where was Satan?

This is why it says to work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Deliverance there is the same Greek word that is translated elsewhere as, salvation. Salvation then is being delivered from unfruitful works of darkness (the other spirits). Christ's nature and person is the fruit that is supposed to be manifested, in us "trees".

He said I give unto you power over snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. When's the last time you took authority over a literal snake and scorpion? Me neither. But rest assured that when I recognize an unclean thought I make sure it's not coming from within first, before I take authority over anything trying to take my peace from without. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we like the priests, are to trim our wicks daily. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal

good post re: the "will".  Without circumcision first, do you see it possible for one to even have the choice of "will", in other words, without the "eyes" to see that we are not our "flesh/spirit of satan", is there even a will to choose or to take authority?? 

to me, a separation has to take place first.  and then we can choose to, with authority take every thought captive

 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly Zeek.....if you look at the Tabernacle pattern again, there is the key. There are TWO veils, the first one represents the beginning of the circumcision or rending of OUR FLESH, which is what happens when we enter into Christ. Then our eyes are opened to see spiritual things. Blessings....

[sheila]

  Good thread;

  Loved your insight Zeek and Cardinal.Agree whole-heartedly.

  Now, to CP I would say in re; to accountability..and his

  dualism of identity.  Father has blotted out/taken out of

account..the sinful condition of your flesh in regard to

the gift of everlasting life and deliverance promised you.


  The authorities are placed there to temper,moderate and

  discipline these 'lawless' spirits in all mankind's flesh.


  But He truly desires that you get your vessel under control[or

  RULE OVER ] these same spirits .Cardinal gave good

  instruction that will go a long way in helping.


  We are to rule them..not the other way around..by the spirit of

  Christ in us. 1 Peter 4;15


   Does that mean we are always victorious? no. we are

   sometimes overome[Daniel 7;25] But the eternal VICTORY IS

  ASSURED BY OUR FATHER HIMSELF AND HIS SON.Rev 13;7


  NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD SHOWN

  US THROUGH HIS SON..No evil spirits,sin in our flesh at

  present can do this..we are His progency..He has named

  all mankind as such..from the first Adam to the Last.


  Our identity is told us by Him, and revealed as such. For even

the whole creation has been groaning for the revealation of the

  SONS OF GOD. If mankind be sons and daughters they also

  are heirs of God,JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST..regardless of

  their present appearance on earth. And as Zeek told in

  His post..that should be your identity in Christ-seperate from

  sin. You are a new creature in Christ..no longer a sinful

condemnedd sinner human vessel of His Wrath by law.

But a vessel of mercy of which[Romans 9;22]to make the

riches of His GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY.

  And that said object is HIS SONS AND DAUGHTERS.


  CP you may have trouble accepting this is you do not accept

  the reality of these lawless spirits...you must KNOW this

before you can seperate yourself.


   Jesus 'seperates' the sheep from the goats...all mankind is

  the sheep of God's pasture. identified with THE LAMB

  AND ARE IDENTIFIED IN THE LAMB'S SCROLL OF LIFE

  Rev 21;27


  ..the goats Isaaih 13;21 speaking about Babylon...

   Isaaih 34;14 Leviticus 17;7 they must no longer offer any

  of their sacrifices to the goat idols. Lev 16;22

    he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat,and

   confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the

   Israelites-all their sins- and put them on the goats head

   he shall send the goat away into the desert.....the goat will

carry on itself all their sins  to a solitary place,and the man

shall release it in the desert.

   Deuteronomy 1;28...we even saw the Anakites[giants] there


   29  then I said to you,do not be terrified,do

  not be afraid of them. The LORD your GOD who is going before

you,will fight for you,as He did for you in Egpt before your very

eyes.  [have no fear little flock,for I have OVERCOME THE

    WORLD]


Deuteronomy 1;35       not a man of

   this evil generation will see the good land I swore to give

   your forefathers....v 39  and the little ones that you said

would be taken captive,who do not yet know good from bad-

  they will enter the Land.[Adam and Eve eat of tree of

knowledge of  good and evil and taken captive by seducing

spirits other than God's spirit.}

   You see, we are all little children of God as long as we are

   here on this earth.When we ascend we come in full spiritual

   Glory and Power..we are sown in weakness raised in power

  Our spiritual powers are not fully developed  as yet,but are due

   to manifest when we are changed in a twinkling or when we

leave this dust[exodus] and enter the promised land[heaven].

  Until we are raised in power,angels,Holy spirit and spirit of

Christ minister to us.


    Gotta go, see ya latr,Sheila

[claypot]

Don't get me wrong Sheila. I understand the spiritual dynamics of where we stand in Gods eyes. What I am trying to say is that I am still responsible for things I do in the flesh. Do you agree? I am responsible. Yes it is the sin in me of which God does not condemn me for but I still feel responsible.

I am getting my vessel under control as the Christ grows within my essence. It is Christ in me, it is me. I can do all things through Christ.

Let me ask you. When you break the law and go to court here in the physical, do you plead guilty or do you say you are not really guilty?
cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good reply Sheila..... :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Don't get me wrong Sheila. I understand the spiritual dynamics of where we stand in Gods eyes. What I am trying to say is that I am still responsible for things I do in the flesh. Do you agree? I am responsible. Yes it is the sin in me of which God does not condemn me for but I still feel responsible.

I am getting my vessel under control as the Christ grows within my essence. It is Christ in me, it is me. I can do all things through Christ.

Let me ask you. When you break the law and go to court here in the physical, do you plead guilty or do you say you are not really guilty?
cp

Yes, of course you bear responsibility if you know you are sinning and sin anyways.  Did Bernie Madoff not know he was sinning?  Did he just trip and fall into a ponzi scheme?  Could he just not help himself because his flesh is bad?  Did he have no control over the lying, over the theft of billions of dollars?  Does he figure--well, they had responsibility, too, and they just believed what they wanted to hear?  Does he reduce his own culpability with caveat emptor?

We can make all kinds of excuses, but the man is just plain evil.

[claypot]

Picture the Bible as a human being.  Sin is being replaced by holiness. Jesus Christ is the medicine. God is the Doctor. I know I am as good as cured and in that sense I am cured but on another level I am still being cured so I am still sick. It is all a person. The Bible is one unit. In it exists the old man and the new, sin and purity, good and evil. These exist in each person too. The culmination of the Bible is total salvation yet from beginning to end it is a process.

The Bible must be read on many levels. It is like a diamond with many facets. To look at just one facet is to see the Bible in a false light. So too a person. We are sinners, we are holy. We are mortal, we are immortal.

Look at a person and the complexities and then look at the Bible. So perfectly similar in their complexities.

cp

[Molly]

And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.

Let him argue that before God.  God will just laugh.


Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

[claypot]

And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.

Let him argue that before God.  God will just laugh.


Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.

cp

[Molly]

And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.

Let him argue that before God.  God will just laugh.


Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.

cp

12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

18The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

--Psalm 37

[claypot]

And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.

Let him argue that before God.  God will just laugh.


Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.

cp

12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

14The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.

15Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

16A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

17For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

18The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

--Psalm 37

Perfect Molly perfect.

There is something nasty within me that definitely plots against that which is good. I know the good is much stronger, I see it winning many if not most of the battles. The 'little' good within is far stronger and more cherished than all the bad in me.

I love it when it talks so violently about destroying that man of sin in my being. Break its arms!!!!! God pulls no punches does He?

God wins.

cp

[Molly]

I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill. 

Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).

A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?

[claypot]

I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill. 

Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).

A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?

The arms I'm thinking the Spirit are talkin about can hurt worse when broken than the ones you may be talking about.

God does run a rough game doesn't He? But it's the only game in town so what can we do?

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Actually, He withers (dries up) the arm of flesh.  :winkgrin:

[Taffy]

No POWER in the arm or strength of hand , this flesh all around  Profits Nothing...

Praise Him for the Burden of HIS shoulder :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[sheila]

 Hey CP,

 Mercy triumphs over judgement....at THE THRONE OF GOD

 in that we do not lose our etrnal life

 but discipline is another matter Romans 13;1

  Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities,

  for there is no authority except that which God has

 established.The authorities that exist have been established

by God.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority

rebels against what God has instituted,and those who do so will

bring judgment upon themselves.For rulers hold no terror for

those who do right,but for those who do wrong. Do you want to

be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right

and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you

good.But if you do wrong,be afraid,for he does not bear the

sword for nothing.[the authority restrains wickedness with the

punishments/fines/imprisonments and death sentences it

 carries out against the 'lawless'.]


   How does he do us good? well, he offers some protection

 against rampant evil and a restraint against evil in society.

 v6..He is God's servant,an agent of wrath to bring punishment

 on the wong-doer...especially those who are as yet unbeleivers


 2 Thessalonians 2;6  And now you know what is holding him

back[restraining] so that he may be revealed at the proper time

[fear of punishment] For the secret power of lawlessness is

alreADY AT WORK,BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT  BACK

WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE

WAY  


           sHEILA

[Molly]

I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill. 

Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).

A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?

The arms I'm thinking the Spirit are talkin about can hurt worse when broken than the ones you may be talking about.

God does run a rough game doesn't He? But it's the only game in town so what can we do?

cp

I know what he's talking about.  Again, why not do the right thing?  That's his question, not mine.

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

--Gen 4

How hard can it be not to steal 50 billion dollars from people who trust you?  Is that hard?

Gee, I can hardly control myself at just the thought of it.  When do I start?

Can I cut my teeth on orphans and little old ladies?

[Molly]

For the secret power of lawlessness is

alreADY AT WORK,BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT  BACK

WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE

WAY 

Sheila, can you explain to me what that means to you?  What is the secret power of lawlessness?  Who holds it back?  Who will take him out of the way and why and when?

Also, do you think we are required to be obedient to tyrants?  So, if a tyrant orders us to cut off our brother's head, we follow orders?  Or are required to bend to no one but God, and, rather, like Daniel say, throw me into the fire?

[sheila]

  Hi Molly,

  Of course we should not  heed a command of any lawless

authority..be it a lawless spirit on ourselves, others,or a

governmental authority of lawlessness,neither.


  However, when brought before Pilate, Jesus was silent before

  that authority...even that authority noted he had done nothing

  worthy of death...but due to pressure of the people..relented

  and put him to death.

  Fear of punishment can hold evil back.or restrain it..

   .until it is taken out of the way.BUT THE SPIRIT OF LOVE

  has no fear,perfect love drives out fear,because fear has to do

  with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in

love

   Whoever lives in LOVE lives in GOD and God in him, in this

way love is made complete among us so that we will have

  confidence on the day of judgement[1John4;21]


  Another way I see the lawless one restrained is by the Holy

spirit until the time of Christ's return..when we are 'changed"

  and the lawless spirits are sent into  the fire prepared for them

...thus they being taken out of the way...

  another Matthew 24;40 two men will be in the feild,one will be

  taken and one will be left. He seperates His spiritual children

  from the sons of perdition,man of sin in his flesh, or sins

  law[authority] of evil in his flesh...which  sin takes our flesh

  captive.

    At present we have a 'token' of our inheritance of

righteousness..even the Holy spirit..to help us in this

spiritual battle. When He returns or when we rise...we receive

  it in full..even uncorrupt spirit in incorruptible bodies..in

  this way,too, he is taken out of the way.


   What is this 'secret' power of lawlessness?

   none other than the seed of the serpent sowed in our hearts

   and flesh![parable of the wheat and tares Matt 13;25]


   2 Esdras 7;92  because they have striven with great effort to

   overcome the evil thought that was formed with them, so

   that it might not lead them astray from life to death.


   That is how I understand it,Molly.

                              Sheila

[Molly]

Thanks, Sheila,

Why does he call it a 'secret power' [of lawlessness]?

To me, that speaks of  people behind the scenes carrying on a wicked agenda, with their rites of an esoteric [hidden] religion for initiates only, or secret plans between co-conspirators which have a religious component.  Is this the literal religion of Babylon?


[the] "secret power"

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.


[of] "lawlessness"

G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.


To me, these are people plotting and planning their wickedness behind the scenes--including  secret groups, clubs, and religions--or what we might call betrayers or traitors for a wicked cause. 

But, Jesus is very clear about distancing himself from anything secret--


26 "So don't be afraid of your enemies. Everything that is secret will be brought out into the open. Everything that is hidden will be uncovered. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What is whispered in your ear, shout from the rooftops.

--Mat 10

[Zeek]

Thanks, Sheila,

Why does he call it a 'secret power' [of lawlessness]?

To me, that speaks of  people behind the scenes carrying on a wicked agenda, with their rites of an esoteric [hidden] religion for initiates only, or secret plans between co-conspirators which have a religious component.  Is this the literal religion of Babylon?


[the] "secret power"

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.


[of] "lawlessness"

G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.


To me, these are people plotting and planning their wickedness behind the scenes--including  secret groups, clubs, and religions--or what we might call betrayers or traitors for a wicked cause. 

But, Jesus is very clear about distancing himself from anything secret--


26 "So don't be afraid of your enemies. Everything that is secret will be brought out into the open. Everything that is hidden will be uncovered. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What is whispered in your ear, shout from the rooftops.

--Mat 10

from a preterist view, there is a pretty good understanding of what those verse meant, if anyone interested; i'll dig it up; been awhile since i read it

[Molly]

anomie

1.Social instability caused by erosion of standards and values.
2.Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals.


musterion anomia

Molly's definition:

A secret religious order whose purpose is to create a general lack of standards, values, or ideals, whose goal is to destroy a society [so that they can gain control over it].