My question is........
What the heck am I?
Seriously. What are we? I see an amazing thing I call myself and creation. I talk about it and give it terms and explanations that don't even seem to come close although they are exciting to my mind at times.
What I am looking for is the reality, the nowness. I am something. I am a thought of God. In my case it seems a stray thought but a thought none the less. I think this tabernacle business is a key as all life, Scripture included, is.
To get these amazing teachings from the page to me existant being is my goal.
What am I? Who am I?
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 28, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
My question is........
What the heck am I?
Seriously. What are we? I see an amazing thing I call myself and creation. I talk about it and give it terms and explanations that don't even seem to come close although they are exciting to my mind at times.
What I am looking for is the reality, the nowness. I am something. I am a thought of God. In my case it seems a stray thought but a thought none the less. I think this tabernacle business is a key as all life, Scripture included, is.
To get these amazing teachings from the page to me existant being is my goal.
What am I? Who am I?
cp
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
I know Molly, I know. I know many of those answers mentally but I just can't get them into my real 'knowing place'. I am the temple of God. What the heck is that? The dwelling place for the Spirit of God. OK. What does that make me? I sure don't feel like I'm a temple or tabernacle or the home of God unless feeling just ok is what it's all about.
What comes to my mind is that I am a thought of God, period.
This is straying too far from the tabernacle thoughts so maybe I'll start a new thread on what I am looking for.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 28, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
What the heck am I?
"Nothing is anything, until you label it something."
PM
Quote from: peacemaker on March 01, 2009, 06:34:54 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 28, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
What the heck am I?
"Nothing is anything, until you label it something."
PM
I really liked that PM.
This thread is so good. Time, and other questions are a challenge right now but I do have one question.....
Why in the world is this thread in the Bible Threatenings Explained section?
cp
For we know that if (I would say 'when') our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.2cor4.18
I do groan.
What am I?
I am a tabernacle that needs (is) dissolving.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 03:09:23 PM
For we know that if (I would say 'when') our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.2cor4.18
I do groan.
What am I?
I am a tabernacle that needs (is) dissolving.
cp
I don't believe it's a "self centered groaning".
Rom 9:2 That I have
great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Paul knew who he was in Christ.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
ready to vanish away, the "old covenant" and all it's elements.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I really don't think Paul was always looking inward, in a "poor me, I cant' wait till i'm made "new" finally;
but rather;
the day when all Israel would be free from the law.
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 03:38:22 PM
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
ready to vanish away, the "old covenant" and all it's elements.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I really don't think Paul was always looking inward, in a "poor me, I cant' wait till i'm made "new" finally;
but rather;
the day when all Israel would be free from the law.
Hi Zeek, I don't think Paul was in a 'poor me' frame of mind either. I hope you don't think I am. I do think Paul saw much more than what appears on the surface, don't you?
I too look forward to and am enjoying in part the day when all Israel is freed from the law.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 03:38:22 PM
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
ready to vanish away, the "old covenant" and all it's elements.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I really don't think Paul was always looking inward, in a "poor me, I cant' wait till i'm made "new" finally;
but rather;
the day when all Israel would be free from the law.
Hi Zeek, I don't think Paul was in a 'poor me' frame of mind either. I hope you don't think I am. I do think Paul saw much more than what appears on the surface, don't you?
I too look forward to and am enjoying in part the day when all Israel is freed from the law.
cp
I truly think Paul's hope, his groaning was for others, not himself. Forgive me if i assume your "groaning" is not about yourself, but it appears to me you feel, "i am so tired of not living from the spirit, and from walking in the flesh", "i am so ready to be released from this "body" of flesh", please Jesus "rescue me".
this to me is an inward application that isn't aware of who you are, and that your life is service. You are free, you have overcome.
as far as Israel, they imo are freed from the law; the "emancipation of decl" is complete, the slaves are set free. Unity/oneness at this point is realized, not made at this point.
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 03:54:25 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 03:38:22 PM
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
ready to vanish away, the "old covenant" and all it's elements.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I really don't think Paul was always looking inward, in a "poor me, I cant' wait till i'm made "new" finally;
but rather;
the day when all Israel would be free from the law.
Hi Zeek, I don't think Paul was in a 'poor me' frame of mind either. I hope you don't think I am. I do think Paul saw much more than what appears on the surface, don't you?
I too look forward to and am enjoying in part the day when all Israel is freed from the law.
cp
I truly think Paul's hope, his groaning was for others, not himself. Forgive me if i assume your "groaning" is not about yourself, but it appears to me you feel, "i am so tired of not living from the spirit, and from walking in the flesh", "i am so ready to be released from this "body" of flesh", please Jesus "rescue me".
this to me is an inward application that isn't aware of who you are, and that your life is service. You are free, you have overcome.
as far as Israel, they imo are freed from the law; the "emancipation of decl" is complete, the slaves are set free. Unity/oneness at this point is realized, not made at this point.
Yes Zeek, I can expound all the glories of being free. I do see things that be not as though they were. Zeek, I live in this world of flesh too. I see horrible things like tortures and rapes and wars and all sorts of like conflicts. I see this in my own being too. I think Paul did too. He was not always the happy go lucky guy you seem to see. He struggled more with the flesh (Romans 7) than I will ever do. If you think Paul only groaned for others I think you may need to read Romans 7 again.
I am completely free in Christ yet I am still attached to this flesh in certain ways.
Are you attached to the flesh in any way Zeek or have you fully ascended in every way?
You are so right, I have overcome, in Christ.
cp
hi cp, off to work. i'll get back to ya later
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 04:29:13 PM
hi cp, off to work. i'll get back to ya later
you ask am i attached to the flesh?? in anyway??
before i answer, what is the flesh to you??
In this sense I am asking if you are connected in any way to corruption. Like I know I am in Christ and He in me and thus perfect but Zeek, I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence. I cannot say this is not me yet it is not me in some mystical way.
Do you understand?
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 05:52:19 PM
In this sense I am asking if you are connected in any way to corruption. Like I know I am in Christ and He in me and thus perfect but Zeek, I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence. I cannot say this is not me yet it is not me in some mystical way.
Do you understand?
cp
Yes I do understand, but it's not you that is "nasty", it's not "you" that sins. At least it's not me. I am not attached to "the sin in me". And the more I focus on it, the more power it has.
I am not in the flesh, even though flesh fruits arise in me. It is no longer me, but sin in me.
I am free, I know my identity. And so do you.
You are not in the flesh, if the Spirit is in you.
and it is.
Love to you brother.
Z
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 06:18:49 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 05:52:19 PM
In this sense I am asking if you are connected in any way to corruption. Like I know I am in Christ and He in me and thus perfect but Zeek, I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence. I cannot say this is not me yet it is not me in some mystical way.
Do you understand?
cp
Yes I do understand, but it's not you that is "nasty", it's not "you" that sins. At least it's not me. I am not attached to "the sin in me". And the more I focus on it, the more power it has.
I am not in the flesh, even though flesh fruits arise in me. It is no longer me, but sin in me.
I am free, I know my identity. And so do you.
You are not in the flesh, if the Spirit is in you.
and it is.
Love to you brother.
Z
That's why I said 'I am still a nasty person in so many ways
on a different level of existence.'Do you not take any responsibility for any coarse thing you may do in the flesh Brother? I ask this very seriously.
cp
Nathan, I see Zeek and I and ???? are getting off the tabernacle subject which I don't want to do.
Hey Zeek, what we are talking about would do well in the 'What am I?' thread, don't you think?
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 08:06:34 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 06:18:49 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 05:52:19 PM
In this sense I am asking if you are connected in any way to corruption. Like I know I am in Christ and He in me and thus perfect but Zeek, I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence. I cannot say this is not me yet it is not me in some mystical way.
Do you understand?
cp
Yes I do understand, but it's not you that is "nasty", it's not "you" that sins. At least it's not me. I am not attached to "the sin in me". And the more I focus on it, the more power it has.
I am not in the flesh, even though flesh fruits arise in me. It is no longer me, but sin in me.
I am free, I know my identity. And so do you.
You are not in the flesh, if the Spirit is in you.
and it is.
Love to you brother.
Z
That's why I said 'I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence.'
Do you not take any responsibility for any coarse thing you may do in the flesh Brother? I ask this very seriously.
cp
i don't see myself as "in the flesh", so how can I take responsibility for it?? If i were to take responsibility for it, would be imo; to deny who I am. I am not "my flesh". This has been the most transforming revelation to me. We are to renew our mind, meaning, "not jump from the "bad branch to the good branch", but to realize i'm cut off from that tree.
I am circumcised, not "becoming circumcised"; which I am pretty sure you will disagree with.
I agree though, this is off topic to this thread. sorry, i'm famous for doing that.
blessings
z
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 08:06:34 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 06:18:49 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 05:52:19 PM
In this sense I am asking if you are connected in any way to corruption. Like I know I am in Christ and He in me and thus perfect but Zeek, I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence. I cannot say this is not me yet it is not me in some mystical way.
Do you understand?
cp
Yes I do understand, but it's not you that is "nasty", it's not "you" that sins. At least it's not me. I am not attached to "the sin in me". And the more I focus on it, the more power it has.
I am not in the flesh, even though flesh fruits arise in me. It is no longer me, but sin in me.
I am free, I know my identity. And so do you.
You are not in the flesh, if the Spirit is in you.
and it is.
Love to you brother.
Z
That's why I said 'I am still a nasty person in so many ways on a different level of existence.'
Do you not take any responsibility for any coarse thing you may do in the flesh Brother? I ask this very seriously.
cp
i don't see myself as "in the flesh", so how can I take responsibility for it?? If i were to take responsibility for it, would be imo; to deny who I am. I am not "my flesh". This has been the most transforming revelation to me. We are to renew our mind, meaning, "not jump from the "bad branch to the good branch", but to realize i'm cut off from that tree.
I am circumcised, not "becoming circumcised"; which I am pretty sure you will disagree with.
I agree though, this is off topic to this thread. sorry, i'm famous for doing that.
blessings
z
OK forget off topic for now. We'll get it back on course with Taf's help.
Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp
ok Guys..Hope i got the right posts.... :icon_flower:
Looks good to me Taf. You are quite the magician! Ooooops, is magician not a good thing?
cp
"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp"
What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are". It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.
I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.
To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ. My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God. I am HIS. Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner. My identity is HIM.
I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me. My response is PRAISE and THANKS.
I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them. They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me.
If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them". You are the one aware of those objects. Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me. The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist.
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 09:59:43 PM
"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp"
What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are". It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.
I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.
To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ. My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God. I am HIS. Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner. My identity is HIM.
I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me. My response is PRAISE and THANKS.
I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them. They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me.
If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them". You are the one aware of those objects. Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me. The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist.
So when you do wrong like, again, speeding in your car or shoplifting, who is it that is responsible for this wrong doing? Who pays the fine? Is it you and not you at the same time?
Again, I am being very serious here. I think we are on to something I want to know.
For me, I too am not really a citizen of this flesh yet I am me. I am a flesh and blood person as well as a spirit born person. I am not only aware, as you say, of my bad actions, I feel responsible for them too.
In some way I have to identify with the flesh yet for all that I don't deny Christ, at least I don't think I do. I am flesh and blood and I am born of the spirit. Again, the diamond thing. I just can't see it as one way totally. It is a mixture of many things in one.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 09:59:43 PM
"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp"
What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are". It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.
I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.
To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ. My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God. I am HIS. Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner. My identity is HIM.
I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me. My response is PRAISE and THANKS.
I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them. They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me.
If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them". You are the one aware of those objects. Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me. The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist.
So when you do wrong like, again, speeding in your car or shoplifting, who is it that is responsible for this wrong doing? Who pays the fine? Is it you and not you at the same time?
Again, I am being very serious here. I think we are on to something I want to know.
For me, I too am not really a citizen of this flesh yet I am me. I am a flesh and blood person as well as a spirit born person. I am not only aware, as you say, of my bad actions, I feel responsible for them too.
In some way I have to identify with the flesh yet for all that I don't deny Christ, at least I don't think I do. I am flesh and blood and I am born of the spirit. Again, the diamond thing. I just can't see it as one way totally. It is a mixture of many things in one.
cp
it is sin in me, not me
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 11:35:14 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 09:59:43 PM
"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp"
What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are". It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.
I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.
To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ. My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God. I am HIS. Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner. My identity is HIM.
I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me. My response is PRAISE and THANKS.
I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them. They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me.
If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them". You are the one aware of those objects. Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me. The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist.
So when you do wrong like, again, speeding in your car or shoplifting, who is it that is responsible for this wrong doing? Who pays the fine? Is it you and not you at the same time?
Again, I am being very serious here. I think we are on to something I want to know.
For me, I too am not really a citizen of this flesh yet I am me. I am a flesh and blood person as well as a spirit born person. I am not only aware, as you say, of my bad actions, I feel responsible for them too.
In some way I have to identify with the flesh yet for all that I don't deny Christ, at least I don't think I do. I am flesh and blood and I am born of the spirit. Again, the diamond thing. I just can't see it as one way totally. It is a mixture of many things in one.
cp
it is sin in me, not me
OK Zeek but is this what you tell the police officer that pulls you over.....'Sorry officer, I didn't really do this it is the sin in me.' This may seem like a silly question but you get my drift.
In other words, what do you mean by it is the sin in you.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 03, 2009, 12:01:36 AM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 11:35:14 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 02, 2009, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: Zeek on March 02, 2009, 09:59:43 PM
"Zeek, you don't seem to be hearing most of my posts on the subject of me believing I am circumcised and I will be circumcised and I am becoming circumcised. I just cannot see Scripture on one level. It is too much like a diamond to do so. So many faceted to see just one angle.
I am concerned about the responsibility issue. So if you do something wrong like speeding in your car and you go to court, do you say to the judge that it was your flesh doing it not you so you are innocent? Again, I am being serious. You have good responses and I am learning.
cp"
What i believe is that the "flesh" is an identity, a "who we are". It's based off of self, in the absence of revealed unconditional love.
I am not that "identity" anymore, I am ONE with the Father.
To identify with "the flesh" is to deny Christ. My spirit testifies with His Spirit that I am a child of God. I am HIS. Any act or deed that is "sinful" is not me, as that would mean my Father is a sinner. My identity is HIM.
I believe as long as we are humans, there will be "sinful" acts or "wrong doings"; but praise God, I am no longer "identified" with that, it no longer is me. My response is PRAISE and THANKS.
I am the one who is "aware" of these "wrong acts", but no longer the sinner doing them. They can continue, and likely will continue throughout my life; but they are not me.
If I put a chair, a key, and a picture in front of u and asked "which one of these is you", I don't think u'd have a problem saying "none of them". You are the one aware of those objects. Sin, "flesh", "wrong deeds" are things I am aware of, but they are not me. The more I resist doing them, the more identified I am with them, and the more they persist.
So when you do wrong like, again, speeding in your car or shoplifting, who is it that is responsible for this wrong doing? Who pays the fine? Is it you and not you at the same time?
Again, I am being very serious here. I think we are on to something I want to know.
For me, I too am not really a citizen of this flesh yet I am me. I am a flesh and blood person as well as a spirit born person. I am not only aware, as you say, of my bad actions, I feel responsible for them too.
In some way I have to identify with the flesh yet for all that I don't deny Christ, at least I don't think I do. I am flesh and blood and I am born of the spirit. Again, the diamond thing. I just can't see it as one way totally. It is a mixture of many things in one.
cp
it is sin in me, not me
OK Zeek but is this what you tell the police officer that pulls you over.....'Sorry officer, I didn't really do this it is the sin in me.' This may seem like a silly question but you get my drift.
In other words, what do you mean by it is the sin in you.
cp
works every time. I only get warnings. :grin:
Well, i'm wore out for now. To the best of my ability i've described what i believe to be true. circumcision of the heart, veil being torn, etc. is the removal of the flesh. I truly don't see myself as attached to "the flesh" or seeing the flesh having any authority. The authority was under law.
I do know that peace and joy are mine despite some very hard times in my life, and it is a HE who I know.
blessings.
Z
Amen and amen Z. Get some rest.
cp
:cloud9: Well, if you want my opinion from experience, the cause of sin is a spirit in your flesh that you. by your captive will, give place to. Satan, in the form of these, take our will captive. In the beginning of my walk, the Lord made that life in me, that ALL mankind has this in their flesh because of the fall, in that Satan was cast down to the dust realm. So for this reason, all sin is common (or held in common) to man. This is a great leveler God established, that none should think more highly of himself, because ALL have these things in their heart to deal with.
So; this is why He said if you lust after a woman in your heart, you've already committed adultery. Because that spirit is in the heart of man. So is murder. Now you say, but I've never killed anyone. But if you ever hated your brother, then the same is a murderer. Satan was a murderer from the beginning, so where was Satan?
This is why it says to work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Deliverance there is the same Greek word that is translated elsewhere as, salvation. Salvation then is being delivered from unfruitful works of darkness (the other spirits). Christ's nature and person is the fruit that is supposed to be manifested, in us "trees".
He said I give unto you power over snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. When's the last time you took authority over a literal snake and scorpion? Me neither. But rest assured that when I recognize an unclean thought I make sure it's not coming from within first, before I take authority over anything trying to take my peace from without. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we like the priests, are to trim our wicks daily. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 03, 2009, 01:08:58 AM
:cloud9: Well, if you want my opinion from experience, the cause of sin is a spirit in your flesh that you. by your captive will, give place to. Satan, in the form of these, take our will captive. In the beginning of my walk, the Lord made that life in me, that ALL mankind has this in their flesh because of the fall, in that Satan was cast down to the dust realm. So for this reason, all sin is common (or held in common) to man. This is a great leveler God established, that none should more highly of himself, because ALL have these things in their heart to deal with.
So; this is why He said if you lust after a woman in your heart, you've already committed adultery. Because that spirit is in the heart of man. So is murder. Now you say, but I've never killed anyone. But if you ever hated your brother, then the same is a murderer. Satan was a murderer from the beginning, so where was Satan?
This is why it says to work out your own deliverance with fear and trembling. Deliverance there is the same Greek word that is translated elsewhere as, salvation. Salvation then is being delivered from unfruitful works of darkness (the other spirits). Christ's nature and person is the fruit that is supposed to be manifested, in us "trees".
He said I give unto you power over snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy. When's the last time you took authority over a literal snake and scorpion? Me neither. But rest assured that when I recognize an unclean thought I make sure it's not coming from within first, before I take authority over anything trying to take my peace from without. Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we like the priests, are to trim our wicks daily. Blessings....
Hi Cardinal
good post re: the "will". Without circumcision first, do you see it possible for one to even have the choice of "will", in other words, without the "eyes" to see that we are not our "flesh/spirit of satan", is there even a will to choose or to take authority??
to me, a
separation has to take place first. and then we can choose to, with authority take every thought captive
:cloud9: Exactly Zeek.....if you look at the Tabernacle pattern again, there is the key. There are TWO veils, the first one represents the beginning of the circumcision or rending of OUR FLESH, which is what happens when we enter into Christ. Then our eyes are opened to see spiritual things. Blessings....
Good thread;
Loved your insight Zeek and Cardinal.Agree whole-heartedly.
Now, to CP I would say in re; to accountability..and his
dualism of identity. Father has blotted out/taken out of
account..the sinful condition of your flesh in regard to
the gift of everlasting life and deliverance promised you.
The authorities are placed there to temper,moderate and
discipline these 'lawless' spirits in all mankind's flesh.
But He truly desires that you get your vessel under control[or
RULE OVER ] these same spirits .Cardinal gave good
instruction that will go a long way in helping.
We are to rule them..not the other way around..by the spirit of
Christ in us. 1 Peter 4;15
Does that mean we are always victorious? no. we are
sometimes overome[Daniel 7;25] But the eternal VICTORY IS
ASSURED BY OUR FATHER HIMSELF AND HIS SON.Rev 13;7
NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD SHOWN
US THROUGH HIS SON..No evil spirits,sin in our flesh at
present can do this..we are His progency..He has named
all mankind as such..from the first Adam to the Last.
Our identity is told us by Him, and revealed as such. For even
the whole creation has been groaning for the revealation of the
SONS OF GOD. If mankind be sons and daughters they also
are heirs of God,JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST..regardless of
their present appearance on earth. And as Zeek told in
His post..that should be your identity in Christ-seperate from
sin. You are a new creature in Christ..no longer a sinful
condemnedd sinner human vessel of His Wrath by law.
But a vessel of mercy of which[Romans 9;22]to make the
riches of His GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY.
And that said object is HIS SONS AND DAUGHTERS.
CP you may have trouble accepting this is you do not accept
the reality of these lawless spirits...you must KNOW this
before you can seperate yourself.
Jesus 'seperates' the sheep from the goats...all mankind is
the sheep of God's pasture. identified with THE LAMB
AND ARE IDENTIFIED IN THE LAMB'S SCROLL OF LIFE
Rev 21;27
..the goats Isaaih 13;21 speaking about Babylon...
Isaaih 34;14 Leviticus 17;7 they must no longer offer any
of their sacrifices to the goat idols. Lev 16;22
he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat,and
confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the
Israelites-all their sins- and put them on the goats head
he shall send the goat away into the desert.....the goat will
carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place,and the man
shall release it in the desert.
Deuteronomy 1;28...we even saw the Anakites[giants] there
29 then I said to you,do not be terrified,do
not be afraid of them. The LORD your GOD who is going before
you,will fight for you,as He did for you in Egpt before your very
eyes. [have no fear little flock,for I have OVERCOME THE
WORLD]
Deuteronomy 1;35 not a man of
this evil generation will see the good land I swore to give
your forefathers....v 39 and the little ones that you said
would be taken captive,who do not yet know good from bad-
they will enter the Land.[Adam and Eve eat of tree of
knowledge of good and evil and taken captive by seducing
spirits other than God's spirit.}
You see, we are all little children of God as long as we are
here on this earth.When we ascend we come in full spiritual
Glory and Power..we are sown in weakness raised in power
Our spiritual powers are not fully developed as yet,but are due
to manifest when we are changed in a twinkling or when we
leave this dust[exodus] and enter the promised land[heaven].
Until we are raised in power,angels,Holy spirit and spirit of
Christ minister to us.
Gotta go, see ya latr,Sheila
Don't get me wrong Sheila. I understand the spiritual dynamics of where we stand in Gods eyes. What I am trying to say is that I am still responsible for things I do in the flesh. Do you agree? I am responsible. Yes it is the sin in me of which God does not condemn me for but I still feel responsible.
I am getting my vessel under control as the Christ grows within my essence. It is Christ in me, it is me. I can do all things through Christ.
Let me ask you. When you break the law and go to court here in the physical, do you plead guilty or do you say you are not really guilty?
cp
:cloud9: Good reply Sheila..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: claypot on March 03, 2009, 07:51:55 PM
Don't get me wrong Sheila. I understand the spiritual dynamics of where we stand in Gods eyes. What I am trying to say is that I am still responsible for things I do in the flesh. Do you agree? I am responsible. Yes it is the sin in me of which God does not condemn me for but I still feel responsible.
I am getting my vessel under control as the Christ grows within my essence. It is Christ in me, it is me. I can do all things through Christ.
Let me ask you. When you break the law and go to court here in the physical, do you plead guilty or do you say you are not really guilty?
cp
Yes, of course you bear responsibility if you know you are sinning and sin anyways. Did Bernie Madoff not know he was sinning? Did he just trip and fall into a ponzi scheme? Could he just not help himself because his flesh is bad? Did he have no control over the lying, over the theft of billions of dollars? Does he figure--well, they had responsibility, too, and they just believed what they wanted to hear? Does he reduce his own culpability with caveat emptor?
We can make all kinds of excuses, but the man is just plain evil.
Picture the Bible as a human being. Sin is being replaced by holiness. Jesus Christ is the medicine. God is the Doctor. I know I am as good as cured and in that sense I am cured but on another level I am still being cured so I am still sick. It is all a person. The Bible is one unit. In it exists the old man and the new, sin and purity, good and evil. These exist in each person too. The culmination of the Bible is total salvation yet from beginning to end it is a process.
The Bible must be read on many levels. It is like a diamond with many facets. To look at just one facet is to see the Bible in a false light. So too a person. We are sinners, we are holy. We are mortal, we are immortal.
Look at a person and the complexities and then look at the Bible. So perfectly similar in their complexities.
cp
And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.
Let him argue that before God. God will just laugh.
Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 08:25:29 PM
And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.
Let him argue that before God. God will just laugh.
Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.
cp
Quote from: claypot on March 03, 2009, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 08:25:29 PM
And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.
Let him argue that before God. God will just laugh.
Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.
cp
12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
14The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
16A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
17For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
--Psalm 37
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 09:30:52 PM
Quote from: claypot on March 03, 2009, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 08:25:29 PM
And, Bernie Madoff is arguing he should be allowed to keep his 7 million dollar penthouse and the 62 million in his wife's accounts.
Let him argue that before God. God will just laugh.
Psalm 37:13
The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
I argue such nonsense before God all the time and I know I will be set right and forgiven and more than that, I know I am and I am. In some ways Bernie and I very similar.
cp
12The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
14The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
16A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
17For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
--Psalm 37
Perfect Molly perfect.
There is something nasty within me that definitely plots against that which is good. I know the good is much stronger, I see it winning many if not most of the battles. The 'little' good within is far stronger and more cherished than all the bad in me.
I love it when it talks so violently about destroying that man of sin in my being. Break its arms!!!!! God pulls no punches does He?
God wins.
cp
I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill.
Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).
A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 11:37:26 PM
I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill.
Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).
A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?
The arms I'm thinking the Spirit are talkin about can hurt worse when broken than the ones you may be talking about.
God does run a rough game doesn't He? But it's the only game in town so what can we do?
cp
:cloud9: Actually, He withers (dries up) the arm of flesh. :winkgrin:
No POWER in the arm or strength of hand , this flesh all around Profits Nothing...
Praise Him for the Burden of HIS shoulder :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Hey CP,
Mercy triumphs over judgement....at THE THRONE OF GOD
in that we do not lose our etrnal life
but discipline is another matter Romans 13;1
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities,
for there is no authority except that which God has
established.The authorities that exist have been established
by God.Consequently, he who rebels against the authority
rebels against what God has instituted,and those who do so will
bring judgment upon themselves.For rulers hold no terror for
those who do right,but for those who do wrong. Do you want to
be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right
and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you
good.But if you do wrong,be afraid,for he does not bear the
sword for nothing.[the authority restrains wickedness with the
punishments/fines/imprisonments and death sentences it
carries out against the 'lawless'.]
How does he do us good? well, he offers some protection
against rampant evil and a restraint against evil in society.
v6..He is God's servant,an agent of wrath to bring punishment
on the wong-doer...especially those who are as yet unbeleivers
2 Thessalonians 2;6 And now you know what is holding him
back[restraining] so that he may be revealed at the proper time
[fear of punishment] For the secret power of lawlessness is
alreADY AT WORK,BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT BACK
WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE
WAY
sHEILA
Quote from: claypot on March 04, 2009, 12:47:17 AM
Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 11:37:26 PM
I suppose...if you relish having your arms broken because you can't follow a few simple commonsense commandments not to steal, cheat, and kill.
Why not just do the right thing? (As God said to Cain).
A banker killed himself because he was the victim of Madoff--does that make his hands stained with blood, too?
The arms I'm thinking the Spirit are talkin about can hurt worse when broken than the ones you may be talking about.
God does run a rough game doesn't He? But it's the only game in town so what can we do?
cp
I know what he's talking about. Again, why not do the right thing? That's his question, not mine.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
--Gen 4
How hard can it be not to steal 50 billion dollars from people who trust you? Is that hard?
Gee, I can hardly control myself at just the thought of it. When do I start?
Can I cut my teeth on orphans and little old ladies?
Quote from: SheilaFor the secret power of lawlessness is
alreADY AT WORK,BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT BACK
WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE
WAY
Sheila, can you explain to me what that means to you? What is the secret power of lawlessness? Who holds it back? Who will take him out of the way and why and when?
Also, do you think we are required to be obedient to tyrants? So, if a tyrant orders us to cut off our brother's head, we follow orders? Or are required to bend to no one but God, and, rather, like Daniel say, throw me into the fire?
Hi Molly,
Of course we should not heed a command of any lawless
authority..be it a lawless spirit on ourselves, others,or a
governmental authority of lawlessness,neither.
However, when brought before Pilate, Jesus was silent before
that authority...even that authority noted he had done nothing
worthy of death...but due to pressure of the people..relented
and put him to death.
Fear of punishment can hold evil back.or restrain it..
.until it is taken out of the way.BUT THE SPIRIT OF LOVE
has no fear,perfect love drives out fear,because fear has to do
with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in
love
Whoever lives in LOVE lives in GOD and God in him, in this
way love is made complete among us so that we will have
confidence on the day of judgement[1John4;21]
Another way I see the lawless one restrained is by the Holy
spirit until the time of Christ's return..when we are 'changed"
and the lawless spirits are sent into the fire prepared for them
...thus they being taken out of the way...
another Matthew 24;40 two men will be in the feild,one will be
taken and one will be left. He seperates His spiritual children
from the sons of perdition,man of sin in his flesh, or sins
law[authority] of evil in his flesh...which sin takes our flesh
captive.
At present we have a 'token' of our inheritance of
righteousness..even the Holy spirit..to help us in this
spiritual battle. When He returns or when we rise...we receive
it in full..even uncorrupt spirit in incorruptible bodies..in
this way,too, he is taken out of the way.
What is this 'secret' power of lawlessness?
none other than the seed of the serpent sowed in our hearts
and flesh![parable of the wheat and tares Matt 13;25]
2 Esdras 7;92 because they have striven with great effort to
overcome the evil thought that was formed with them, so
that it might not lead them astray from life to death.
That is how I understand it,Molly.
Sheila
Thanks, Sheila,
Why does he call it a 'secret power' [of lawlessness]?
To me, that speaks of people behind the scenes carrying on a wicked agenda, with their rites of an esoteric [hidden] religion for initiates only, or secret plans between co-conspirators which have a religious component. Is this the literal religion of Babylon?
[the] "secret power"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
[of] "lawlessness"
G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
To me, these are people plotting and planning their wickedness behind the scenes--including secret groups, clubs, and religions--or what we might call betrayers or traitors for a wicked cause.
But, Jesus is very clear about distancing himself from anything secret--
26 "So don't be afraid of your enemies. Everything that is secret will be brought out into the open. Everything that is hidden will be uncovered. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What is whispered in your ear, shout from the rooftops.
--Mat 10
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2009, 07:06:23 AM
Thanks, Sheila,
Why does he call it a 'secret power' [of lawlessness]?
To me, that speaks of people behind the scenes carrying on a wicked agenda, with their rites of an esoteric [hidden] religion for initiates only, or secret plans between co-conspirators which have a religious component. Is this the literal religion of Babylon?
[the] "secret power"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
[of] "lawlessness"
G458
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
To me, these are people plotting and planning their wickedness behind the scenes--including secret groups, clubs, and religions--or what we might call betrayers or traitors for a wicked cause.
But, Jesus is very clear about distancing himself from anything secret--
26 "So don't be afraid of your enemies. Everything that is secret will be brought out into the open. Everything that is hidden will be uncovered. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What is whispered in your ear, shout from the rooftops.
--Mat 10
from a preterist view, there is a pretty good understanding of what those verse meant, if anyone interested; i'll dig it up; been awhile since i read it
anomie
1.Social instability caused by erosion of standards and values.
2.Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals.
musterion anomia
Molly's definition:
A secret religious order whose purpose is to create a general lack of standards, values, or ideals, whose goal is to destroy a society [so that they can gain control over it].
I think you are onto something Molly. From a preterist viewpoint, the false prophets of Judaism were teh antichrists whose goal was to overthrow faith in Christ through their false doctrine and persecution of the church.
The man of sin was the Roman emporer, Nero.
Each of these forces (fleshly Israel and Rome) had a common goal, that could not be achieved without the help of each other. The goal was world dominion, then being threatened by the "little stone" cut out of the mountain.
Fleshly Israel sought an eternal, universal, earthly kingdom, which was threatened by the advancing expansion of christianity. To stop this growth, jewish leaders saw the need to extend persecution beyond the borders of Palestine into Roman territory where the church was rapidly expanding.
This would require assistance of Rome. Realizing the innate desire of Nero to be a god, Israel made a deal with Nero, to offer worship to him through the "daily sacrifice" in the temple and the result was a death sentence to all that refused to worship him. (revl 13).
Christians everwhere would then come under persecution from Nero, a fact suppored by secular history. Rome now would serve Israel's purpose to destroy the church, and at the same time Nero would be flattered in thinking he had teh woship of a rebel kingdom. neither worked for long.
According to history, the daily sacrifice for Nero in the temple was discontinued in the fall of AD 66 which finally resulted in Nero's decree for the destruction of Jerusalem. Thus persecution against the church is now shifted to fleshly Israel, and at last the cries of those under the alter are heard (rev 6)
the "mystery of lawlessness at work" was the alliance between jewish leaders and Nero. A working alliance between Israel and Rome.
(from The Spirit of Prophecy, by Max King)
wow. That's amazing. :mshock: I didn't realize they were forced to worship Nero in the temple.
But, my question is--has anything changed?
Different temple, different Nero, same unholy alliance--musterion anomie-- between religion and money, under satan, in pursuit of rulership of the entire world.
Luke 19:46
Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2009, 08:52:58 AM
wow. That's amazing. :mshock: I didn't realize they were forced to worship Nero in the temple.
But, my question is--has anything changed?
Different temple, different Nero, same unholy alliance--musterion anomie-- between religion and money, under satan, in pursuit of rulership of the entire world.
Luke 19:46
Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Nothing has changed. People are houses of prayer yet we turn our households into dens of thieves. Same old story with the same glorious outcome.
cp
un..huh
these evil tribunals bring tribulation...