Saved by faith alone

[bobf]

The scriptures specifically say this judgement is to receive that which you have done in the body, it in no way says it is for correction for a future time, and there is no reference to anyone "getting out" of the Lake of Fire in the scriptures. There is no reference to "the people whom went though the Lake of Fire and were let out".

If Revelation were silent on whether anyone get's out or not, then it is just as much an assumption on your part that they don't get out.  But Revelation is not silent.  After the LOF and the saved are within the city and the wicked are without the city, the gates of the city remain open. What do scriptures say as to why the gates remain open?  And trees yielding fruit month by month (ongoing) for the healing of the nations.  Certainly no one within the city needs healing anymore month after month.

And there is much more to scripture than what is stated only in Revelation.  There is the nature of God: His mercy endures "forever", God will not cast off "forever".  Both contradicted by your view of the LOF.

As far as the translations, there are examples in scripture of owlam judgments (aionios in the LXX) that do not last forever.  Those examples prove that aionios judgments do not imply everlasting judgments.

[bobf]

Doesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.

We both believe that.

The gospel also says that in Christ all the familes of the earth will be blessed.

....it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.

It is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin.

[firstborn888]

AM,
  Somewhere in this thread I remembered you mentioned some NDEs that clearly showed hell was forever.
Did you catch those and edit them out (or did I see them on a different thread)?
  Anyway, all those NDEs really undermine your case as they SAW and believed and got to come back from the dead and be saved.

  Hmmmmmm......  :happygrin:

[peacemaker]

so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul.

He will.  :thumbsup:

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22)

It could be said, that until one possesses knowledge – they will need the faith of, in order to believe on; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God!
                               :gthumbsup:
That which was first taught.

peacemaker

[arcticmonster2003]

AM,
  Somewhere in this thread I remembered you mentioned some NDEs that clearly showed hell was forever.
Did you catch those and edit them out (or did I see them on a different thread)?
  Anyway, all those NDEs really undermine your case as they SAW and believed and got to come back from the dead and be saved.

  Hmmmmmm......  :happygrin:

Not sure if any of these are what you are looking for, take a look through them and let me know.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3205.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3207.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3208.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3173.0

I understand you think they undermine my case. They are not my witness, but the witness of others, and their witness was that hell was eternal, that is what they said. There shall be no excuse, the rich man (in the story Jesus told us about) would have killed to come back and tell his relatives. These people were allowed to come back and tell people, though if I remember correctly a couple of them were christians whom God was showing hell specifically for the reason to warn others in these last days.

[WhiteWings]

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
If you agree the 'all' in 'all are saved' really means 100% then you already have your answer. Revelation can't be the end of the Biblical story. But if you don't believe that look at the verses listed below. They, imo, clearly show what you read in Revelation isn't the final stage.

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

[arcticmonster2003]

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
If you agree the 'all' in 'all are saved' really means 100% then you already have your answer. Revelation can't be the end of the Biblical story. But if you don't believe that look at the verses listed below. They, imo, clearly show what you read in Revelation isn't the final stage.

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 

I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.

[WhiteWings]

After the LOF and the saved are within the city and the wicked are without the city, the gates of the city remain open. What do scriptures say as to why the gates remain open?  And trees yielding fruit month by month (ongoing) for the healing of the nations.  Certainly no one within the city needs healing anymore month after month.

Hi Bob,

You could be right; but personally I see no proof for that in the part you written/quoted.
The trees are healing. Giving life. If those inside the city don't need them why are they not outside the city?
Those outside the city can't access the trees because they only can get inside the city after they turned to Jesus.
So again the trees on both sides of the river that flows out of the throne seem useless.
(Why 2 sides and 2 trees? Hidden meaning?)

My idea is this:
During Revelation everyone still gets older and dies. The only cure to stop the aging is eating from the trees of life.
So those inside the gates can eat themselfs to immortality.
Those outside simply die of old age.
That changes when Father takes of the rule. But in Revelation Son is still ruling with a rod of iron. Putting things under His feet.
But mentioning the rod of iron and 'under His feet' are useless if Son only rules over the 'good guy' who already are submitted. So the ones outside the city are the ones that receive stripes by being beaten with the rod of iron.

Just my  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.

Sound doctrine is about what's written. Not how you or me think about things....
So on what basis you disagree?
Did it ever occur to you Jesus IS the way to get around death....?

[arcticmonster2003]

Doesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.

We both believe that.

The gospel also says that in Christ all the familes of the earth will be blessed.

....it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.

It is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin.

I agree that it is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin, however, the scriptures seem clear that all those whom don't believe even until death shall not just have a normal judgement, but condemnation, and that condemnation is hell and then the Lake of Fire.

1 Corinthians 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


While some do turn to God under trial, it is not necessarily the case that God shall use corrective punishment for all, he used corrective punishment for natural Israel, whom he called his people, and also for us jews and gentiles whom are spiritual Israel, whom are his people. He chastens his children, no where in the scriptures is it written that he will most certainly use corrective punishment for all people, many rich, ungodly men lived all the days of their life in what they consider happy days. It is also clear that not all whom undergo God's punishment shall repent, but rather it is written that they shall actually think to destroy Jesus Christ and come against him when he returns, to destroy him with military might. Of course this is ridiculous, that they think they will win, but it is written, twice the enemy tries this. These people are going to no doubt be under a strong delusion. They are going to do no less that attempt to destroy God, and they will no doubt be fearful, but will fulfill the scripture nonetheless, it almost blows my mind just to think of it.

Revelation 16:9  And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11  And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 16:21  And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[arcticmonster2003]

I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.

Sound doctrine is about what's written. Not how you or me think about things....
So on what basis you disagree?
Did it ever occur to you Jesus IS the way to get around death....?

I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy, meaning it is going to lead people to eternal damnation. The gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved, I don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there. A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

[WhiteWings]

While some do turn to God under trial, it is not necessarily the case that God shall use corrective punishment for all, he used corrective punishment for natural Israel, whom he called his people, and also for us jews and gentiles whom are spiritual Israel, whom are his people. He chastens his children, no where in the scriptures is it written that he will most certainly use corrective punishment for all people, many rich, ungodly men lived all the days of their life in what they consider happy days.

It's very clearly written He uses the same kind of punishment for 100% of His creation.
If He doesn't that conflicts with the underlined parts.

Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Acts 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 10:12  or there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:)....
Ephesians 6:9  .... knowing that your Master  also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
1 Peter 1:17  And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[arcticmonster2003]

If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.

Psalms 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Job 21:30  That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Psalms 73:12  Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13  Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14  For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15  If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16  When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17  Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18  Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19  How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20  As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.

Luke 16:19  There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

[WhiteWings]

I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy,

Based on what? I think we can agree that many die in sin or even never heard of Jesus.
Then the many 'save all' verses. Then teh only conclusion can be there are more chances than in this life.

The gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved,

True. But without a time limit.

I don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there.

It isn't there. But that's not the point.
It's better for your own sake to repent right now. That only indicates that the thing that follows if you do not repent now (or anytime during your life) is an bad thing that's best to be avoided. But it doesn't tell anything about eternal and having or not having extra chances.

But verse like save all, wrath lasts a moment and love endures forever point into a certain direction.
You know, IMO, if a verse doesn't speak of something accept that. Don't add to it.
If the verse says "turn to Jesus to be saved" then the only information it gives you is that Jesus is the way to salvation.
It doesn't tell you how long, when, where, when the offer ends. Etc.
For that information you have to look up other verses. If you can't find a verse that doesn't tell you how long the offer stands noone, either ET or UR, can make claims on that point.


A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

But it doesn't say if the voice can or can't be heared again next friday...
By your reasoning you are doomed unless you opened your heart on the day mentioned in that verse....
And what was Son doing on earth if Father declared the only day to be saved was teh day in the verse mentioned above.
Is Son a renegade that tries to overrule Father or are they a team presenting 'another day"?

[arcticmonster2003]

I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy,

Based on what? I think we can agree that many die in sin or even never heard of Jesus.
Then the many 'save all' verses. Then teh only conclusion can be there are more chances than in this life.

The gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved,

True. But without a time limit.

I don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there.

It isn't there. But that's not the point.
It's better for your own sake to repent right now. That only indicates that the thing that follows if you do not repent now (or anytime during your life) is an bad thing that's best to be avoided. But it doesn't tell anything about eternal and having or not having extra chances.

But verse like save all, wrath lasts a moment and love endures forever point into a certain direction.
You know, IMO, if a verse doesn't speak of something accept that. Don't add to it.
If the verse says "turn to Jesus to be saved" then the only information it gives you is that Jesus is the way to salvation.
It doesn't tell you how long, when, where, when the offer ends. Etc.
For that information you have to look up other verses. If you can't find a verse that doesn't tell you how long the offer stands noone, either ET or UR, can make claims on that point.


A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.

Hebrews 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

But it doesn't say if the voice can or can't be heared again next friday...
By your reasoning you are doomed unless you opened your heart on the day mentioned in that verse....
And what was Son doing on earth if Father declared the only day to be saved was teh day in the verse mentioned above.
Is Son a renegade that tries to overrule Father or are they a team presenting 'another day"?

Ok, so you disagree with me. I think you are teaching a heresy by even implying accepting salvation after death being a part of the gospel, nothing less. I would plead with you that you wouldn't even imply to people that they may accept their salvation after death. I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.

Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[WhiteWings]

If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.

AM,

It's not about agreeing or not. I just don't read things the way you do. If you can give me good proof I'll change my views. You didn't provide me that proof.
That doesn't mean I'm saying you won't convince me next week/month/year.
You, like me, are quoting real verses. They way we use them they seem to contradict. But we both know they don't contradict. So we have to figure out a way to make them align.
As I wrote in another thread the Bible is no statistical book. It's not like AM can quote 5000 'doom many' verses and WW 1 'saved all' verse so AM wins.
Then it simply means we have to sit around the table and find a way to align all verses to either mean '5001x doom many' or '5001x save all'

[arcticmonster2003]

If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.

AM,

It's not about agreeing or not. I just don't read things the way you do. If you can give me good proof I'll change my views. You didn't provide me that proof.
That doesn't mean I'm saying you won't convince me next week/month/year.
You, like me, are quoting real verses. They way we use them they seem to contradict. But we both know they don't contradict. So we have to figure out a way to make them align.
As I wrote in another thread the Bible is no statistical book. It's not like AM can quote 5000 'doom many' verses and WW 1 'saved all' verse so AM wins.
Then it simply means we have to sit around the table and find a way to align all verses to either mean '5001x doom many' or '5001x save all'

Maybe we will begin a thread on this some other time, it isn't really an important point to prove for me and I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go.

[WhiteWings]

I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.

Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...

Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...

EDIT
Quote from the post just above:

it isn't really an important point to prove for me

Eternal life or eternal torture is just a minor Biblical point?
I think it's a major point because it (partly) shows the charater of our Creator.

and I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go

You can't prove it; but you accuse me of being a heretic that teaches a false gospel......

[arcticmonster2003]

I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.

Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...

Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...

Ok whitewings, there are clear examples on how the simple gospel of salvation was preached to people in the book of Acts:

Acts 2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37  ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.




Acts 10:34  ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36  The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37  That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40  Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42  And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44  ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.



I'm worried that you have any desire at all to somehow come up with a gospel other than the one we see here in the book of Acts. Like I said, sound doctrine tells people to believe now, it doesn't look for ways around it.

[arcticmonster2003]

I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.

Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...

Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...

EDIT
Quote from the post just above:

it isn't really an important point to prove for me

Eternal life or eternal torture is just a minor Biblical point?
I think it's a major point because it (partly) shows the charater of our Creator.

and I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go

You can't prove it; but you accuse me of being a heretic that teaches a false gospel......

Whitewings,

you have clearly quoted about 2 different subjects, from 2 different posts, and combined them to make it "look really" bad. That is just unreal. :dunno:

I hope that was just an accident.

I said I wasn't concerned about proving that only God's children are promised chastisement. This was a completely seperate issue from the other one where you were implying that people may accept salvation after death which I called a heresy. Two completely different issues.

The differnce is that the one I am not concerned about proving at all I don't consider a heresy one  way or another, that is, about whether all people or only God's children are promised chastisement.

I do consider preaching that people may accept their salvation after death a heresy, because it is a heresy. It is in no way the way we see the gospel preached in the scriptures. This one I really don't want to discuss at all. I consider it a heresy that is obvious and one that shouldn't even be entertained, though I did at least show an example of the gospel being preached in my post above this one.

Two different issues.

[firstborn888]

Not sure if any of these are what you are looking for, take a look through them and let me know.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3205.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3207.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3208.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3173.0

No, I think I saw a reference in this thread before some edits :dontknow:

I understand you think they undermine my case. They are not my witness, but the witness of others, and their witness was that hell was eternal, that is what they said.

What they said has been debunked here in this forum and elsewhere. And they do undermine the case for "If you see then it's not faith so it can't lead to salvation".

The disciples 'saw' and for one (Thomas) it's the only thing that caused him to believe. Paul the apostle saw the resurrected Jesus as well. He was not a believer before then.

The word 'faith' simply means to have absolute confidence that something is true (the root Greek - NOT the later religious connotations). It doesn't matter how someone arrives at that faith. Many have come to faith through seeing. "Blessed are those who have seen and believed".
:thumbsup:

[sven]

Romans 12:3

For through the grace which is given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to have high thoughts beyond what is right to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God divided a measure of faith to each.

Romans 9:18

So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.

Romans 11:32

For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Ok, so you disagree with me. I think you are teaching a heresy by even implying accepting salvation after death being a part of the gospel, nothing less. I would plead with you that you wouldn't even imply to people that they may accept their salvation after death. I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.

It is the gospel of  Good News and the only Good news there can be.   You cannot call a Gospel that does not see Jesus as 100% successful in being the Savior of the WHOLE world Good news.   


1Pt 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Pt 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[bobf]

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?

Take a look at Isaiah 60:11 and the words leading up to "THEREFORE thy gates shall be open continually"  since the preceding verses must explain WHY the gates remain open in the New Jerusalem.  The gates remain open to bring spiritual Gentiles into the city to further "adorn" the city.

[WhiteWings]

That is what I was saying.
But without those clear and beautiful verses to really prove what i wrote.
So simply put the gates are open now and are open for eternity.