If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
You do not always have faith in what you see.
Faith is apart from seeing. Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
imo,
I think one has to define what "saved" means.
All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God. Many go through the wide gait. Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.
But, the process is a change in covenants. Old to New. So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
To clarify a bit further
Phl 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Phl 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
These verses here do not mention seeing anything.
Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 22, 2009, 03:01:09 AM
Faith is apart from seeing. Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.
I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.
Hebrews 11:1 ¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:03:24 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
imo,
I think one has to define what "saved" means.
All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God. Many go through the wide gait. Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.
But, the process is a change in covenants. Old to New. So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.
The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame
change in covenants
law-------->NEW
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:10:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:03:24 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
imo,
I think one has to define what "saved" means.
All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God. Many go through the wide gait. Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.
But, the process is a change in covenants. Old to New. So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.
The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
so what does "saved" mean to you??
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:06:29 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 22, 2009, 03:01:09 AM
Faith is apart from seeing. Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.
I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Well, mainly what I am getting at is that seeing or not seeing is not what we measure faith with.
Hb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:12:58 AM
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame
change in covenants
law-------->NEW
Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?
Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".
Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.
Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 22, 2009, 03:17:10 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:06:29 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 22, 2009, 03:01:09 AM
Faith is apart from seeing. Faith is God given, what we see or don't see is irrevalent to faith.
I disagree, scriptures link seeing (or not seeing as it is) with the definition of faith, at least to some degree.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Well, mainly what I am getting at is that seeing or not seeing is not what we measure faith with.
Hb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
I understand. I wasn't trying to measure faith by seeing or not seeing. Not a measurement, but a definition.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:16:49 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:10:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:03:24 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
imo,
I think one has to define what "saved" means.
All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God. Many go through the wide gait. Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.
But, the process is a change in covenants. Old to New. So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.
The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
so what does "saved" mean to you??
It means only one thing according to the gospel I know.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:25:27 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:12:58 AM
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame
change in covenants
law-------->NEW
Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?
Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".
Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.
Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.
I know we all are reconciled by
his death.We are not saved by his death, but
by his life.
This life is given via faith (by grace).
If you hang onto the old belief, of life via the law; you will be turned over to satan for the destruction of this thinking process. you will have come to the mount that burns with fire.
This shamed nakedness imo, is what I read in Corinthians as
destruction of the flesh and salvation of the spirit. Destruction of the flesh, imo; is the wrath of God.
Believers dont' have a flesh to be destroyed, as we are not in the flesh; but in the spirit if the spirit dwells in you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are
not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
That's the way I read it.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:28:48 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:16:49 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:10:57 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:03:24 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AM
If we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
That is, if faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, then how shall anyone be saved by faith when they pass from this life that is the opportunity to be saved by faith alone, without seeing. For after they pass then they understand (those whom did not believe), by seeing, that they were wrong, this is not faith, but seeing and understanding.
How can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
imo,
I think one has to define what "saved" means.
All are not saved from the lake of fire, the destruction, the wrath of God. Many go through the wide gait. Only those who have been given faith and are faithful to the end will be saved from this wrath.
But, the process is a change in covenants. Old to New. So the spirit is saved via destruction, as New is all there is, all there really ever was, just needed to have the veil burned away.
The very basics of "The Faith" are now being brought into question.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
so what does "saved" mean to you??
It means only one thing according to the gospel I know.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
well, i agree that not all are saved from his wrath;
But all are reconciled. To receive his reconciliation is LIFE. Those who believe, have passed from death to life, and will never die.
Those who don't believe, will die in their sins.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:32:06 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 03:25:27 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:12:58 AM
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
fallen from grace=====>destruction, shame
change in covenants
law-------->NEW
Am I correct, that is have I understood you correctly, that you think some shall be saved by faith and some shall be "saved" by destruction?
Destruction does not fit my definition of "being saved". This sounds like a different gospel of "salvation".
Do you mean to tell me that when Paul was saying this:
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
that he was implying that he was delivering the man, ultimately, to the lake of fire, and not to "satan for the destruction of the flesh"? I think Paul was delivering "such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" as a chastisement, and not a permanent deliverance to Satan.
Paul wrote in his 2nd epistle to the Corinthians on the matter again:
2 Corinthians 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I think you have taken this verse much farther than its actual meaning. If your views are based upon this understanding of this one verse, I think they are wrong.
I think we all are reconciled by his death.
We are not saved by his death, but by his life.
This life is given via faith (by grace).
If you hang onto the old belief, of life via the law; you will be turned over to satan for the destruction of this thinking process. you will have come to the mount that burns with fire.
This shamed nakedness imo, is what I read in Corinthians salvation of the spirit. That's the way I read it.
We who believe are reconciled, no doubt about that.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
We are no longer alienated and enemies, as we all were.
But the fact remains that some are still alienated and enemies.
And it remains that some die in this state.
Thus, back to the main question, how do those whom die, unreconciled, be reconciled, by faith. For after death, they know for a fact, through seeing they were wrong, and faith is believing without seeing.
I ask, but I seem to understand what you say, you say that we are saved by faith, but they are "saved" by destruction. This is a different gospel.
We are saved from the wrath of God, by faith.
They (whom die in unbelief and in their sins) incur the wrath of God, this is not salvation, and to say otherwise in any way (even merely suggesting it) is just wrong.
The Gospel is that by grace we are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour,
from the wrath of God, also that we are not only saved from wrath but inherit really good things.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
So reconciliation is via faith??
or is receiving reconcilation via faith??
I believe all are reconciled, but there is a process of "realizing" this.
What does this verse mean to you??
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
is the "all things" only believers??
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:42:46 AM
So reconciliation is via faith??
or is receiving reconcilation via faith??
I believe all are reconciled, but there is a process of "realizing" this.
We are all freely justified for salvation through Jesus Christ. We are justified to partake of his salvation. It is clear though that many do not want to, because they love their sin and this world more that they love God, they refuse to partake of his salvation. This is foolishness, due to the consequences, and yet there it is for all to see in the Word of God. God has not been silent, but has spoken.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
But only God knows who truly believes in their heart.
you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath. But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God. It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.
and u think that this is out of context.
I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being. I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind. The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:47:39 AM
What does this verse mean to you??
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
is the "all things" only believers??
It says what it says, and it goes not without warning in the same chapter:
The IFs and THENs are always a part of God's word through and through.
Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach,
warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Jesus Christ, whom is eternal, whom underwent punishment for us. Since he is eternal, the punishment he underwent payed the price of our eternal punishment. For those whom don't accept this gift, they shall pay the price with their own eternal punishment.
I hear ya, and understand where u are coming from. For me, LOVE wins.
What do you think Christ (head and body's) purpose is for??
We are a priesthood. What does a priesthood do??
What are we baptized into Christ's death for??
Blessing??
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:54:28 AM
you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath. But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God. It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.
and u think that this is out of context.
I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being. I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind. The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM.
You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)
Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.
The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.
Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 04:10:11 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:54:28 AM
you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath. But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God. It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.
and u think that this is out of context.
I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being. I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind. The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM.
You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)
Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.
The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL.
Your soul is YOU.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
I believe the soul/identity attached to the law (carnal mind) is headed for eternal shame. But there is a spirit within man that can testify with HIS spirit that we are children of God. IMO, this is the same spirit saved in the end/destruction.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Remove the darkness to eternal shame, and what is left??
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 04:10:11 AM
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 03:54:28 AM
you and i aren't that far apart, in that I don't see all saved from wrath. But where we differ, is that I do see the spirit saved via destruction (which to me is the wide gait); which I believe is the wrath of God. It's for the destructiion of the flesh,which I don't see believers as having (now); as we are not in the flesh if the Spirit dwells in us.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
is see the destruction for the purpose of spirit saved in Day of Lord.
and u think that this is out of context.
I beleive that in HIM we move, live and have our being. I believe what keeps us from seeing that, is the flesh, the carnal mind. The carnal mind must be burned away, and this to me is the significance of every knee bowing, to the Glory of HIM.
You keep talking abou this thing Paul said about that one mans spirit (which I think you have expounded beyond its meaning)
Zeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.
The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.
Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
don't you think the "one man" (that i've taken out of context) that was destroyed, lost his soul?? I do.
so if there is only one salvation which you said earlier, and salvation is of the soul only,
then what is this salvation? how can the spirit be saved, when it is only the soul that is saved??
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the
spirit may be
saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
which is for only one man, the only exception out there (according to you)
Saved by faith alone??
or can one's faith save someone else??
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
what??
sanctified
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
sanctified different than salvation??
Believers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of Jesus Christ; unbelievers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of believers: ex: re: Abraham's intercessions for Sodom and Gomorrah. An important part of the process in the total restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah in Ezekiel 16:53-55. All of Israel shall be saved, according to Paul in Romans 11 -- cited by Origen as being connected to Paul's agony a chapter or two earlier where he wished himself accursed for their sakes. This does work as the New Testament example and counterpart to Israel having been delivered through the intercession of Moses.
Have you never understood intercession, Arcticmonster2003?? The prophets are filled with it, that all God required was a man to stand in the gap and they'd all be delivered. 2Chronicles 7:14 "IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME....." doesn't say ANYTHING about the wicked repenting although that would UNQUESTIONABLY be understood with regards to the healing of the land. John 14:12 says that those that believe will do the works that Jesus did and greater things than these!! Greater than having taken away the sin of the world?? YUP! Making sure that they "get it" 'cause to us is entrusted the discipleship of the nations, the ongoing mission of the just suffering for the unjust to bring them to God, the ministry of restoration lest we also be tempted, et. al.
Quote from: martincisneros on February 22, 2009, 05:04:25 AM
Believers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of Jesus Christ; unbelievers are saved by the faith, persecutions, and overcoming of believers:
THANK YOU.
That was what i was getting at re: Christ's (head and body) purpose.
that's what love does.
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
and i believe this verse is related too
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then
baptized for the dead?
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and
be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Ok, Zeek, so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul. I would ask that you think long and hard about exactly what your soul and my soul, and everyone's soul is. In the testimonies I have heard about hell, it is souls that are in hell, trapped in a body of sin, and they are in torment.
Martin, I simply disagree with you. To teach that one doesn't have to believe the Gospel themselves to be saved is a heretical teaching in my view, meaning that I believe it is in a way offering salvation to those whom it is not in reality coming to, thus no salvation for those whom are being told they are saved.
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Abraham did intercede for people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and I do pray for those whom are unsaved as well, that is, I pray they may be saved, because as of yet they are not saved. Their soul is set to incur the wrath of God, and not a corrective punishment, but the full wrath of God.
While I fully agree that the believer's spouse is often saved, I believe this comes because it is nearly impossible to stay away from God while your spouse is born again, in nearly every case, your spouse will be saved or leave you eventually.
There is no guarantee your spouse will be saved, as Paul clearly says:
1 Corinthians 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
It is he whom believes whom is saved.
Thanks for the conversation AM,
may the grace of God continue to awaken us to LOVE.
LOVE never fails.
Quote from: Zeek on February 22, 2009, 06:45:52 AM
Thanks for the conversation AM,
may the grace of God continue to awaken us to LOVE.
LOVE never fails.
God bless
Ezekiel 14 is dealing with Apostate Israel's unbelief that had to face judgment and it's discussing the judgment of the Babylonian captivity rather than creating the eschatological scenario that you're reading into it. Kept in the context of the book with the 16th chapter, it favors my interpretation. And I wasn't saying that people don't have to believe the Gospel. You were inferring that my belief is the error of the unitarians that all roads lead to heaven, which is never what I've ever ever said from day number 1. You're trying to impose your view that if the Christ acheives His mission of reclaiming every life from their sins, then His Cross will have failed because it was supposed to be the separation of the pious from the wicked because Christ only came to seek and save the pious, to remove the sin of the pious, and only came to heal the well.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eonian life through Jesus Christ our Lord. No one here denies this. Unbelievers while they remain unbelievers will not see life because the wrath of God abides on them for the duration of their unbelief. And to clarify this further for you, the Bible says that until you yourself believed you were a child of wrath upon whom the wrath of God abode. Therefore, one may move from the position of having the wrath of God abiding on them into a state of grace as you yourself would freely admit, if you would ever admit that you were ever an unbeliever and that the Scriptures are true that the wrath of God abides on unbelievers. Now, what form did that wrath take that was upon you until you were forced by it and by the weight of the evidence of the Holy Spirit to your heart to renounce your ungodliness and embrace the Lordship of Jesus Christ??
The wrath of God can never be proven to be eternal damnation. Otherwise, not a single soul in this generation could have ever embraced the Lordship of Jesus because all were at one time unbelievers and the wrath of God abides on unbelievers and the unthankful according to Romans 1 and countless other passages. I love the full wrath of God. I sing of and to the wrath of God to the top of my lungs. It's the most beautiful thing that people come into contact with while they're unbelievers. I embrace the full wrath of God and rejoice in it's being poured out in full measure. I frequently sing the whole book of Revelation and rejoice that God's wrath is manifested upon all unbelievers.
Ever looked up the primary words translated wrath from St. Paul and St. John? Same word that we get the English words "orgy" and "orgasm" from. Even Strong's Concordance will tell you that it indicates an excitement of the mind and a reaching forth for. It's literally the love of God to the overboil until it's ravishing. Without it, not a single one of us would have ever embraced His Lordship without the "orge" of God abiding on us until we were subdued and subjected to the Father in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is subject to the Father. All of this is acheived through Jesus Christ. This is the Good News of the Gospel. You really ought to go to Google books and read through Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration."
Quote from: martincisneros on February 22, 2009, 07:07:51 AM
Ezekiel 14 is dealing with Apostate Israel's unbelief that had to face judgment and it's discussing the judgment of the Babylonian captivity rather than creating the eschatological scenario that you're reading into it. Kept in the context of the book with the 16th chapter, it favors my interpretation. And I wasn't saying that people don't have to believe the Gospel. You were inferring that my belief is the error of the unitarians that all roads lead to heaven, which is never what I've ever ever said from day number 1. You're trying to impose your view that if the Christ acheives His mission of reclaiming every life from their sins, then His Cross will have failed because it was supposed to be the separation of the pious from the wicked because Christ only came to seek and save the pious, to remove the sin of the pious, and only came to heal the well.
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eonian life through Jesus Christ our Lord. No one here denies this. Unbelievers while they remain unbelievers will not see life because the wrath of God abides on them for the duration of their unbelief. And to clarify this further for you, the Bible says that until you yourself believed you were a child of wrath upon whom the wrath of God abode. Therefore, one may move from the position of having the wrath of God abiding on them into a state of grace as you yourself would freely admit, if you would ever admit that you were ever an unbeliever and that the Scriptures are true that the wrath of God abides on unbelievers. Now, what form did that wrath take that was upon you until you were forced by it and by the weight of the evidence of the Holy Spirit to your heart to renounce your ungodliness and embrace the Lordship of Jesus Christ??
The wrath of God can never be proven to be eternal damnation. Otherwise, not a single soul in this generation could have ever embraced the Lordship of Jesus because all were at one time unbelievers and the wrath of God abides on unbelievers and the unthankful according to Romans 1 and countless other passages. I love the full wrath of God. I sing of and to the wrath of God to the top of my lungs. It's the most beautiful thing that people come into contact with while they're unbelievers. I embrace the full wrath of God and rejoice in it's being poured out in full measure. I frequently sing the whole book of Revelation and rejoice that God's wrath is manifested upon all unbelievers.
Ever looked up the primary words translated wrath from St. Paul and St. John? Same word that we get the English words "orgy" and "orgasm" from. Even Strong's Concordance will tell you that it indicates an excitement of the mind and a reaching forth for. It's literally the love of God to the overboil until it's ravishing. Without it, not a single one of us would have ever embraced His Lordship without the "orge" of God abiding on us until we were subdued and subjected to the Father in the exact same way that Jesus Christ is subject to the Father. All of this is acheived through Jesus Christ. This is the Good News of the Gospel. You really ought to go to Google books and read through Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration."
OK Martin, I understand, you disagree with my view on the subject.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AMIf we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
The only scripture that mentions "faith" and "alone" together says faith alone is dead.
QuoteHow can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
The disciples saw Jesus Christ, even the resurrected Christ.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 04:10:11 AMZeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.
The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.
Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Entering the wrath of God does not mean a person can not be saved from the wrath of God - seeing as there are plenty of examples of men within the wrath of God who are later saved OUT FROM it. And the law itself declares as much.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 02:51:36 AMIf we are saved by faith alone, then how can those whom have not believed here on earth be saved.
The only scripture that mentions "faith" and "alone" together says faith alone is dead.
QuoteHow can one, seeing Jesus Christ, kneeling, and confessing his as Lord be said to have been saved by faith, if he did not believe while things were not yet seen?
The disciples saw Jesus Christ, even the resurrected Christ.
Can we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?
Can we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?
The disciple did see Jesus Christ, but I believe there is still faith required of them to believe he is whom he told them he was, though they certainly had many more proof than we. The people whom killed him also saw him, and his miracles, but did not believe he was whom he said he was.
It will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 08:03:42 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 04:10:11 AMZeek, they are going to lose their soul to eternal torment, the eternal wrath of God.
The salvation of the Gospel is the salvation of the SOUL from the wrath of God.
Your soul is YOU. It is YOU whom are or are not saved from the wrath of God.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Entering the wrath of God does not mean a person can not be saved from the wrath of God - seeing as there are plenty of examples of men within the wrath of God who are later saved OUT FROM it. And the law itself declares as much.
I am speaking about hell and the final judgement when I am talking about being saved from the wrath of God. The wrath poured out without mixture.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:08:23 AMRevelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You are assuming your proposition by calling it "final judgment" and quoting translations that make is sound everlasting as if that proves your point. "The LORD will not cast off forever".
Gen 8:2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:04:28 AMCan we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?
Not exactly. Faith & works go hand in hand.
QuoteCan we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?
Yes, which in turn means men are saved by God and not their own wills. That scripture is about God saving men. Neither the faith nor the works are of man. That scripture also joins faith and works:
1. Faith is a gift of God
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works.
The determining factor in salvation of any person is God's choice, not the person's will. In your theology, it is man's will, not God's will that determines salvation.
QuoteIt will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.
What makes you so sure God will show them exactly how things are? Only those in Christ see Him as He is.
If you take the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis as a foreshadow of how God judges the wicked, you see that Joseph hid his identity from his wicked brothers and later tormented them in a way that hid his true feelings of mercy towards them.
Faith is more than just seeing that Jesus Christ is or that God is. God SPOKE to Abraham and told him to offer up his only son. So I take that Abraham KNEW God existed. But it still took faith.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 08:19:57 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:08:23 AMRevelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You are assuming your proposition by calling it "final judgment" and quoting translations that make is sound everlasting as if that proves your point. "The LORD will not cast off forever".
The scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.
It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 08:27:10 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:04:28 AMCan we agree that the verse you are referring to is merely saying that if faith is present that it will be evident to men by certain proofs of it, that is those whom have faith will manifest works of this faith over time?
Not exactly. Faith & works go hand in hand.
QuoteCan we agree that the believer is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour?
Yes, which in turn means men are saved by God and not their own wills. That scripture is about God saving men. Neither the faith nor the works are OF men.
1. Faith is a gift
2. We are His workmanship created unto good works.
The determining factor in salvation of any person is God's choice, not the man's will. By man's will all were lost.
QuoteIt will be a completely different thing when one dies and and sees things how they really are.
What makes you so sure God will show them exactly how things are? Only those in Christ see Him as He is.
If you take the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis as a foreshadow of how God judges the wicked, you see that Joseph hid his identity from his wicked brothers and later tormented them in a way that hid his true feelings of mercy towards them.
Faith is more than just seeing that Jesus Christ is or that God is. God SPOKE to Abraham and told him to offer up his only son. So I take that Abraham KNEW God existed. But it still took faith.
I believe that those whom die without Jesus Christ are taken to hell, to await the judgment on the last day. I personally believe that everyone in hell is a "believer", meaning, they believe now. I do understand why you question my belief in this area, just like the rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, whom saw his condition, being in hell and was in torment, he now understood that which he would not probe while he was yet alive. Yet it was too late.
As far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.
For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 06:36:28 AM
so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul.
He will. :thumbsup:
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:33:00 AMThe scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.
It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Yes, of course I believe there is a great white throne judgment. Where does it say that the LOF is not a corrective judgment? The in-this-life-time judgments that are corrective are also destructive & wrathful. Many of them sound as bad as those in Revelation but are still corrective, like Leviticus 26 and Deteronomy 28-29. The law itself declares that one can repent AFTER the full curse of the law has come upon a person (which includes being blotted out from under heaven and being blotted out of God's book). And the LOF is the carrying out of that law.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:39:57 AMAs far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.
For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.
The bottom line is you believe man's own will is what determines his faith, and his faith determines his salvation. So man's will is the reason one person is saved and not another. Thus, one person is saved because he is better than the other, with repect to his will. And God CAN NOT take away the sin of unbelief, though Jesus died to TAKE AWAY the sin of the world.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 08:46:27 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:33:00 AMThe scriptures seem to clearly support the idea of the judgement on the last day, or if I may call it the great white throne judgment, or the judgement where we stand before the judgement seat of Christ, or perhaps it is too much for me to call it the final judgement. In any case the scripture I quoted is pertaining the judgement of which I was speaking, no ordinary judgment is the main thing to understand.
It is not a corrective judgment, but a judgment where every man receives the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. It is going to go very badly for those whom don't have Jesus Christ for their saviour at this judgement.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Yes, of course I believe there is a great white throne judgment. Where does it say that the LOF is not a corrective judgment? The in-this-life-time judgments that are corrective are also destructive & wrathful. Many of them sound as bad as those in Revelation but are still corrective, like Leviticus 26 and Deteronomy 28-29. The law itself declares that one can repent AFTER the full curse of the law has come upon a person (which includes being blotted out from under heaven and being blotted out of God's book). And the LOF is the carrying out of that law.
The scriptures specifically say this judgement is to receive that which you have done in the body, it in no way says it is for correction for a future time, and there is no reference to anyone "getting out" of the Lake of Fire in the scriptures. There is no reference to "the people whom went though the Lake of Fire and were let out".
I do believe the translators got it right and universalism is wrong.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 08:53:50 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 08:39:57 AMAs far as faith and works, lets not squabble over details, all I am saying is that before works that prove faith may be seen, faith must first be present. And that faith must be present first, even if it is only a fraction of a second. The faith comes first, even if by only a microsecond as each case may be different.
For instance, one believes, then they confess. If you confess before you believe then that particular confession is nothing.
Faith (belief), then the confession (works), thats all I am saying.
The bottom line is you believe man's own will is what determines his faith, and his faith determines his salvation. So man's will is the reason one person is saved and not another. Thus, one person is saved because he is better than the other, with repect to his will. And God CAN NOT take away the sin of unbelief, though Jesus died to TAKE AWAY the sin of the world.
Doesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
I only wish all would "gladly receive" the gospel and save themselves from this untoward generation. There is no reason to not "gladly receive" it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 09:00:28 AMThe scriptures specifically say this judgement is to receive that which you have done in the body, it in no way says it is for correction for a future time, and there is no reference to anyone "getting out" of the Lake of Fire in the scriptures. There is no reference to "the people whom went though the Lake of Fire and were let out".
If Revelation were silent on whether anyone get's out or not, then it is just as much an assumption on your part that they don't get out. But Revelation is not silent. After the LOF and the saved are within the city and the wicked are without the city, the gates of the city remain open.
What do scriptures say as to why the gates remain open? And trees yielding fruit month by month (ongoing) for the healing of the nations. Certainly no one within the city needs healing anymore month after month.
And there is much more to scripture than what is stated only in Revelation. There is the nature of God: His mercy endures "forever", God will not cast off "forever". Both contradicted by your view of the LOF.
As far as the translations, there are examples in scripture of
owlam judgments (
aionios in the LXX) that do not last forever. Those examples prove that
aionios judgments do not imply everlasting judgments.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 09:07:27 AMDoesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.
We both believe that.
The gospel also says that in Christ all the familes of the earth will be blessed.
Quote....it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.
It is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin.
AM,
Somewhere in this thread I remembered you mentioned some NDEs that clearly showed hell was forever.
Did you catch those and edit them out (or did I see them on a different thread)?
Anyway, all those NDEs really undermine your case as they SAW and believed and got to come back from the dead and be saved.
Hmmmmmm...... :happygrin:
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 22, 2009, 08:40:13 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 06:36:28 AM
so you agree that the unsaved soul incurs the wrath of God. God help that soul.
He will. :thumbsup:
"Even the righteousness of God which is by
faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:" (Romans 3:22)
It could be said, that until one possesses knowledge – they will need the faith of, in order to believe on; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God!
:gthumbsup:
That which was first taught.
peacemaker
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 22, 2009, 09:39:25 AM
AM,
Somewhere in this thread I remembered you mentioned some NDEs that clearly showed hell was forever.
Did you catch those and edit them out (or did I see them on a different thread)?
Anyway, all those NDEs really undermine your case as they SAW and believed and got to come back from the dead and be saved.
Hmmmmmm...... :happygrin:
Not sure if any of these are what you are looking for, take a look through them and let me know.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3205.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3207.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3208.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3173.0
I understand you think they undermine my case. They are not my witness, but the witness of others, and their witness was that hell was eternal, that is what they said. There shall be no excuse, the rich man (in the story Jesus told us about) would have killed to come back and tell his relatives. These people were allowed to come back and tell people, though if I remember correctly a couple of them were christians whom God was showing hell specifically for the reason to warn others in these last days.
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
If you agree the 'all' in 'all are saved' really means 100% then you already have your answer. Revelation can't be the end of the Biblical story. But if you don't believe that look at the verses listed below. They, imo, clearly show what you read in Revelation isn't the final stage.
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 10:07:53 AM
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
If you agree the 'all' in 'all are saved' really means 100% then you already have your answer. Revelation can't be the end of the Biblical story. But if you don't believe that look at the verses listed below. They, imo, clearly show what you read in Revelation isn't the final stage.
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"
I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 09:17:33 AM
After the LOF and the saved are within the city and the wicked are without the city, the gates of the city remain open. What do scriptures say as to why the gates remain open? And trees yielding fruit month by month (ongoing) for the healing of the nations. Certainly no one within the city needs healing anymore month after month.
Hi Bob,
You could be right; but personally I see no proof for that in the part you written/quoted.
The trees are healing. Giving life. If those inside the city don't need them why are they not outside the city?
Those outside the city can't access the trees because they only can get inside the city after they turned to Jesus.
So again the trees on both sides of the river that flows out of the throne seem useless.
(Why 2 sides and 2 trees? Hidden meaning?)
My idea is this:
During Revelation everyone still gets older and dies. The only cure to stop the aging is eating from the trees of life.
So those inside the gates can eat themselfs to immortality.
Those outside simply die of old age.
That changes when Father takes of the rule. But in Revelation Son is still ruling with a rod of iron. Putting things under His feet.
But mentioning the rod of iron and 'under His feet' are useless if Son only rules over the 'good guy' who already are submitted. So the ones outside the city are the ones that receive stripes by being beaten with the rod of iron.
Just my :2c:
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:13:29 AM
I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.
Sound doctrine is about what's written. Not how you or me think about things....
So on what basis you disagree?
Did it ever occur to you Jesus IS the way to get around death....?
Quote from: bobf on February 22, 2009, 09:25:19 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 09:07:27 AMDoesn't matter what I believe, the gospel says that those whom believe are those who shall be saved.
We both believe that.
The gospel also says that in Christ all the familes of the earth will be blessed.
Quote....it unless one likes his sins and this world more than God. Unfortunetely this is the case too often.
It is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin.
I agree that it is through judgment that people learn not to like their sin, however, the scriptures seem clear that all those whom don't believe even until death shall not just have a normal judgement, but condemnation, and that condemnation is hell and then the Lake of Fire.
1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
While some do turn to God under trial, it is not necessarily the case that God shall use corrective punishment for all, he used corrective punishment for natural Israel, whom he called his people, and also for us jews and gentiles whom are spiritual Israel, whom are his people. He chastens his children, no where in the scriptures is it written that he will most certainly use corrective punishment for all people, many rich, ungodly men lived all the days of their life in what they consider happy days. It is also clear that not all whom undergo God's punishment shall repent, but rather it is written that they shall actually think to destroy Jesus Christ and come against him when he returns, to destroy him with military might. Of course this is ridiculous, that they think they will win, but it is written, twice the enemy tries this. These people are going to no doubt be under a strong delusion. They are going to do no less that attempt to destroy God, and they will no doubt be fearful, but will fulfill the scripture nonetheless, it almost blows my mind just to think of it.
Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 10:25:36 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:13:29 AM
I disagree. Sound doctrine warns people now to believe, it doesn't look for ways around it.
Sound doctrine is about what's written. Not how you or me think about things....
So on what basis you disagree?
Did it ever occur to you Jesus IS the way to get around death....?
I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy, meaning it is going to lead people to eternal damnation. The gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved, I don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there. A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:38:16 AM
While some do turn to God under trial, it is not necessarily the case that God shall use corrective punishment for all, he used corrective punishment for natural Israel, whom he called his people, and also for us jews and gentiles whom are spiritual Israel, whom are his people. He chastens his children, no where in the scriptures is it written that he will most certainly use corrective punishment for all people, many rich, ungodly men lived all the days of their life in what they consider happy days.
It's very clearly written He uses the same kind of punishment for 100% of His creation.
If He doesn't that conflicts with the underlined parts.
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over
all his worksActs 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that
God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 For there is
no respect of persons with God.
Romans 10:12 or there is no
difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me:
God accepteth no man's person:)....
Ephesians 6:9 .... knowing that your Master also is in heaven;
neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is
no respect of persons.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father,
who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.
Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Psalms 73:12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:44:36 AM
I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy,
Based on what? I think we can agree that many die in sin or even never heard of Jesus.
Then the many 'save all' verses. Then teh only conclusion can be there are more chances than in this life.
QuoteThe gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved,
True. But without a time limit.
QuoteI don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there.
It isn't there. But that's not the point.
It's better for your own sake to repent right now. That only indicates that the thing that follows if you do not repent now (or anytime during your life) is an bad thing that's best to be avoided. But it doesn't tell anything about eternal and having or not having extra chances.
But verse like save all, wrath lasts a moment and love endures forever point into a certain direction.
You know, IMO, if a verse doesn't speak of something accept that. Don't add to it.
If the verse says "turn to Jesus to be saved" then the only information it gives you is that Jesus is the way to salvation.
It doesn't tell you how long, when, where, when the offer ends. Etc.
For that information you have to look up other verses. If you can't find a verse that doesn't tell you how long the offer stands noone, either ET or UR, can make claims on that point.
A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.
QuoteHebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
But it doesn't say if the voice can or can't be heared again next friday...
By your reasoning you are doomed unless you opened your heart on the day mentioned in that verse....
And what was Son doing on earth if Father declared the only day to be saved was teh day in the verse mentioned above.
Is Son a renegade that tries to overrule Father or are they a team presenting 'another day"?
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 11:18:52 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:44:36 AM
I think that even to suggest, even just a little bit, that one does not have to accept their salvation in this life is heresy,
Based on what? I think we can agree that many die in sin or even never heard of Jesus.
Then the many 'save all' verses. Then teh only conclusion can be there are more chances than in this life.
QuoteThe gospel is pretty clear and gives pretty clear instructions on how people are saved,
True. But without a time limit.
QuoteI don't see it mentioned at all in the scriptures to even bring up the idea of putting off accepting your salvation until after death, it just isn't there.
It isn't there. But that's not the point.
It's better for your own sake to repent right now. That only indicates that the thing that follows if you do not repent now (or anytime during your life) is an bad thing that's best to be avoided. But it doesn't tell anything about eternal and having or not having extra chances.
But verse like save all, wrath lasts a moment and love endures forever point into a certain direction.
You know, IMO, if a verse doesn't speak of something accept that. Don't add to it.
If the verse says "turn to Jesus to be saved" then the only information it gives you is that Jesus is the way to salvation.
It doesn't tell you how long, when, where, when the offer ends. Etc.
For that information you have to look up other verses. If you can't find a verse that doesn't tell you how long the offer stands noone, either ET or UR, can make claims on that point.
A teaching like this is 100 percent wrong to teach to anyone. The proper gospel to preach is in the scriptures, and it has nothing to do with not believing right now. To day is the acceptable day to believe, thats really all we can scripturally tell anyone, for tomorrow they might be dead. On this basis I disagree with you.
QuoteHebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
But it doesn't say if the voice can or can't be heared again next friday...
By your reasoning you are doomed unless you opened your heart on the day mentioned in that verse....
And what was Son doing on earth if Father declared the only day to be saved was teh day in the verse mentioned above.
Is Son a renegade that tries to overrule Father or are they a team presenting 'another day"?
Ok, so you disagree with me. I think you are teaching a heresy by even implying accepting salvation after death being a part of the gospel, nothing less. I would plead with you that you wouldn't even imply to people that they may accept their salvation after death. I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:14:02 AM
If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.
AM,
It's not about agreeing or not. I just don't read things the way you do. If you can give me good proof I'll change my views. You didn't provide me that proof.
That doesn't mean I'm saying you won't convince me next week/month/year.
You, like me, are quoting real verses. They way we use them they seem to contradict. But we both know they don't contradict. So we have to figure out a way to make them align.
As I wrote in another thread the Bible is no statistical book. It's not like AM can quote 5000 'doom many' verses and WW 1 'saved all' verse so AM wins.
Then it simply means we have to sit around the table and find a way to align
all verses to either mean '5001x doom many' or '5001x save all'
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 11:28:59 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:14:02 AM
If you disagree with me on the chastisement of God whitewings its no big deal to me, the main thing is that we accept the Gospel.
AM,
It's not about agreeing or not. I just don't read things the way you do. If you can give me good proof I'll change my views. You didn't provide me that proof.
That doesn't mean I'm saying you won't convince me next week/month/year.
You, like me, are quoting real verses. They way we use them they seem to contradict. But we both know they don't contradict. So we have to figure out a way to make them align.
As I wrote in another thread the Bible is no statistical book. It's not like AM can quote 5000 'doom many' verses and WW 1 'saved all' verse so AM wins.
Then it simply means we have to sit around the table and find a way to align all verses to either mean '5001x doom many' or '5001x save all'
Maybe we will begin a thread on this some other time, it isn't really an important point to prove for me and I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:26:55 AM
I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.
Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...
QuoteGalatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...
EDIT
Quote from the post just above:
Quoteit isn't really an important point to prove for me
Eternal life or eternal torture is just a minor Biblical point?
I think it's a major point because it (partly) shows the charater of our Creator.
Quoteand I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go
You can't prove it; but you accuse me of being a heretic that teaches a false gospel......
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:26:55 AM
I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.
Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...
QuoteGalatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...
Ok whitewings, there are clear examples on how the simple gospel of salvation was preached to people in the book of Acts:
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 10:34 ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
I'm worried that you have any desire at all to somehow come up with a gospel other than the one we see here in the book of Acts. Like I said, sound doctrine tells people to believe now, it doesn't look for ways around it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:26:55 AM
I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.
Such claims mean nothing to me without proof...
QuoteGalatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
That verse proves absolutely nothing for this discussion.
To speak of a false gospel you have to know what the true/only gospel is. And that is what this whole forum is about...
EDIT
Quote from the post just above:
Quoteit isn't really an important point to prove for me
Eternal life or eternal torture is just a minor Biblical point?
I think it's a major point because it (partly) shows the charater of our Creator.
Quoteand I am not sure I can prove it, so I'll let it go
You can't prove it; but you accuse me of being a heretic that teaches a false gospel......
Whitewings,
you have clearly quoted about 2 different subjects, from 2 different posts, and combined them to make it "look really" bad. That is just unreal. :dunno:
I hope that was just an accident.
I said I wasn't concerned about proving that only God's children are promised chastisement. This was a completely seperate issue from the other one where you were implying that people may accept salvation after death which I called a heresy. Two completely different issues.
The differnce is that the one I am not concerned about proving at all I don't consider a heresy one way or another, that is, about whether all people or only God's children are promised chastisement.
I do consider preaching that people may accept their salvation after death a heresy, because it is a heresy. It is in no way the way we see the gospel preached in the scriptures. This one I really don't want to discuss at all. I consider it a heresy that is obvious and one that shouldn't even be entertained, though I did at least show an example of the gospel being preached in my post above this one.
Two different issues.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:05:31 AM
Not sure if any of these are what you are looking for, take a look through them and let me know.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3205.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3207.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3208.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3204.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3173.0
No, I think I saw a reference in this thread before some edits :dontknow:
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 10:05:31 AM
I understand you think they undermine my case. They are not my witness, but the witness of others, and their witness was that hell was eternal, that is what they said.
What they said has been debunked here in this forum and elsewhere. And they do undermine the case for "If you see then it's not faith so it can't lead to salvation".
The disciples 'saw' and for one (Thomas) it's the only thing that caused him to believe. Paul the apostle saw the resurrected Jesus as well. He was not a believer before then.
The word 'faith' simply means to have absolute confidence that something is true (the root Greek - NOT the later religious connotations). It doesn't matter how someone arrives at that faith. Many have come to faith through seeing. "Blessed are those who have seen and believed".
:thumbsup:
Romans 12:3
For through the grace which is given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to have high thoughts beyond what is right to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God divided a measure of faith to each.
Romans 9:18
So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens.
Romans 11:32
For God shut up all into disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on February 22, 2009, 11:26:55 AM
Ok, so you disagree with me. I think you are teaching a heresy by even implying accepting salvation after death being a part of the gospel, nothing less. I would plead with you that you wouldn't even imply to people that they may accept their salvation after death. I am not going to argue this, I feel it is such a clear heresy that I won't speak of it further. Its a different gospel to tell someone they may accept salvation after death.
It is the gospel of Good News and the only Good news there can be. You cannot call a Gospel that does not see Jesus as 100% successful in being the Savior of the WHOLE world Good news.
1Pt 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pt 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 10:07:53 AM
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
To enter the city you have to be outside first. The question is: can you only earn access during this life?
I think that answer is not in Revealtion itself. But is Revelation really the end of the Bible? Or is it just a book about judgement and not about eternity?
Take a look at Isaiah 60:11 and the words leading up to "
THEREFORE thy gates shall be open continually" since the preceding verses must explain WHY the gates remain open in the New Jerusalem. The gates remain open to bring spiritual Gentiles into the city to further "adorn" the city.
That is what I was saying.
But without those clear and beautiful verses to really prove what i wrote.
So simply put the gates are open now and are open for eternity.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 22, 2009, 05:07:08 PM
That is what I was saying.
But without those clear and beautiful verses to really prove what i wrote.
So simply put the gates are open now and are open for eternity.
Amen. :icon_flower: