What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[Tony N]

Thank you for for your reply Tony. I was just curious.

I think most people in Mainstream Christianity believe that satan is an angel that fell and will get his punishment someday. If you don't ponder this too hard, it really doesn't affect your relationship or view of the Father's love. In this case it isn't worth pursuing, just to agree to disagree.

Hi Sarah,
Yea, mainstream Christianity believes lots of strange things. But then again, so do Christians who believe in God saving all.
I agree with you that it doesn't affect our relationship of the Father's love. At least I don't think it does. But if Satan isn't doing all the muckraking evil on this planet, who is? If Satan is not controlled by God, then is God out of control of His creation? Can we trust a God who is out of control? I can't.

The problem I see with explaining my position, that satan is a spirit, is that people then take that to mean that I do not think he is real. Cardinal is citing supernatural phenomena, Molly keeps saying that only Judas was a devil and I think the point is that satan isn't within because not all were devils, and Tony keeps saying that if you don't use 'an' and give him human qualities then that makes him a being. I certainly believe the things Cardinal shared as real and not 'in the head'. Concerning the abscence of 'an' and human qualities and the 'devil being in one of you', that is all illustrative language.

I know there are evil forces in this world far stronger than mankind can withstand.
When I was a new believer I had some run ins with demon possessed people.
When I was a new believerr I once told a high priest of a Satan worshipping cult that I don't fear Satan at all. He can't touch me and can't cause me any hurt unless God allows it. He told me I should watch what I say. I was living in a Christian outreach house at that time that I was helping to run. That evening, while we were all in our beds my bed and mattress began violently bouncing up and down waking me up. I thought someone was pulling a prank and snuck under my bed while I was asleep. I was yelling for the other people in the room to see who was under my bed. They got up turned on the light and no one was under it. I then remembered what the high priest had said. I don't mean to say these things to glorify Satan. It just is what it is.

But, like I said, if the current belief system regarding satan doesn't give rise to redemptive, loving, or spiritual stability in the heavenlies, then I think it doesn't matter if we know the material makeup of this enemy. My mother will always believe in the being satan who is personally attacking her, and that is ok because she doesn't question like I do.

Yea, one day even Satan will bow is loving adoration to our Lord and Saviour due to what He did to reconcile the universe to God. That's what counts.
Isn't there a scripture that we must be aware of the whiles of the Adversary? I can't remember where.

Tony

[willieH]

willieH:  Hi T!  :hithere:

It could be that Satan entered into them where he formerly was not to cause them to murder much like he entered into Judas

Then is everyone else in the universe left alone while satan inhabits his body since satan is not omnipresent?

No, because Satan is the head of a kingdom and has denizens of demons under his control throughout the universe. He is kind of like the Darth Vader of evil.

Boy Tony... "denizons of demons"?  Where is this established?  And WHERE is it stated that "satan" is calling the shots of these "denizons"?

But, yes, when Satan entered into Judas he was not in anyone else at that time.

So much for "satan's" omnipresence... according to your words this entity is as limited as we... "satan" is a "one at a time" guy - eh?  :laughing7:  This, if true means that there is only ONE "satanic" possession at a time... and that all other world-wide -- "possessions" are NOT "satanic"?  What a [ah-hem] HUGE, ...crock!!!

I'll repeat an earlier question:  Where is "satan" SPECIFICALLY NAMED and noted as "THE" ADVERSARY?

Satan's demons can enter a human:

Mat 8:31 Now the demons entreated Him, saying, "If You are casting us out, dispatch us into the herd of hogs."
Mat 8:32 And He said to them, "Go!Now they, coming out, come away into the hogs. And lo! the entire herd rushes down the precipice into the sea and died in the waters."

And there are spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials where we believers are headed and which we will have to wrestle with:

Eph 6:12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials."

Satan is in control of all these. Yet God is in control of Satan. And no one controls God.

First you say that "satan" is in control (of all these "demons"), then you say that GOD is in control of "satan", ...which means that what GOD controls, is ultimately under HIS CONTROL, and by your own words note that "satan" is under that control... subsequently, whatever "satan" is doing, GOD is actually doing...

Example:  If My HAND (assisted by my FEET and EYES) which are ALL (ultimately) "controlled" by my HEAD [mind]... steals a piece of candy... which of the 4 actually manifested the act?  Which of the 4 is ultimately responsible for the act?  Which of the 4 MADE IT POSSIBLE?  Do we blame the FEET for transporting the HAND & HEAD to the scene of the crime, and thereby enabling its manifestation?  Do we also blame the EYES which were necessary in finding the location of the candy?  Which element was really IN CONTROL and RESPONSIBLE for the theft?

So in the end Tony... what does it matter?  Do you not see that however "satan" is percieved, that GOD's PURPOSE is that which is being enacted, when ALL the facts are taken into consideration?

...willieH   :laughing7:

[Tony N]

I'll repeat an earlier question:  Where is "satan" SPECIFICALLY NAMED and noted as "THE" ADVERSARY?

Willie, because of your rudeness I will just answer this:

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

There, does that satisfy your rudeness?
Take some time off brother before you come against me with your rudeness. Next time ask me a question in the spirit of Christ rather than the Adversary.

[onlytruth]

hi tony -when you see God who will you see?the father?you'll probably see jesus,God is spirit.
blessings :icon_king:

[Tony N]

hi tony -when you see God who will you see?the father?you'll probably see jesus,God is spirit.
blessings :icon_king:

No, I'll see God because Jesus said that "the pure in heart will see God." Everyone else will see Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 
Quote from: willieH on Today at 07:37:44 PM
I'll repeat an earlier question:  Where is "satan" SPECIFICALLY NAMED and noted as "THE" ADVERSARY?"

Tony said, "Willie, because of your rudeness I will just answer this:

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

There, does that satisfy your rudeness?
Take some time off brother before you come against me with your rudeness. Next time ask me a question in the spirit of Christ rather than the Adversary."

:cloud9: Tony, in all honesty, I don't think Willie intended that question to be rude. And it seems you missed the "memo". Willie is in another city having radiation treatments for his cancer, as of Monday. Blessings...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister Cardinal, and brother TonyN :hithere:

SISTER CARDINAL:   Thanks Rebecca, I missed this answer...  :cloud9:

BROTHER TONY-N

I'll repeat an earlier question:  Where is "satan" SPECIFICALLY NAMED and noted as "THE" ADVERSARY?"

Tony said, "Willie, because of your rudeness I will just answer this:

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

There, does that satisfy your rudeness?
Take some time off brother before you come against me with your rudeness. Next time ask me a question in the spirit of Christ rather than the Adversary."

First things first Tony... You know well and good that I love and respect you.  So spare me the drama... You know well and good that I just wanted you to PROVE yourself and your statements which you did NOT...And by the way, it seems when YOU use SARCASM or SNIDE remarks its okay, but when YOU are so addressed (or at least percieve this), all of a sudden its "RUDE"...   :laughing7:

Second... You are so set in your tradition, that you scour any version which might support that TRADITION... :rolleye:

Third....  the word in Rev 20:2 that YOU note as "ADVERSARY" is NOT... This word is #G1228 Diabolos... which means FALSE ACCUSER, Devil, Slanderer... The word in Greek translated ADVERSARY is #G476 Atidikos... which means OPPONENT, ADVERSARY...

You have YET to prove that there is an INDIVDUAL ADVERSARY called "THE Adversary"...

:cloud9: Tony, in all honesty, I don't think Willie intended that question to be rude. And it seems you missed the "memo". Willie is in another city having radiation treatments for his cancer, as of Monday. Blessings...

Thanks again Card...  The treatments may begin tomorrow morning... (They have backlogged my treatment to 2 weeks from now, but an opening has appeared that might put me in tomorrow...)

Peace to you both!

willieH   :cloud9:

[reFORMer]

We're praying for you Willie.  The Healer works in many ways to deliver us to bear witness to His name.  What He does is in such a way as to give glory to Him.  He knows the faith He gives you to be victorious in Him.

I just seem to agree a lot with both Willie and Tony.  They both bless me while I could criticize both.  It seems they are viewing things from different perspectives.  Sometimes we are overly exuberant about something we see and carry it too far.  Almost any doctrine, however good, seems capable of being taken by the carnal mind and turned into a death dealing thing.  Sometimes it is what you need to know at a certain time.  There are practical emphasis in the word according to the immediate situation.

Years ago I got into something similar to what Willie is expressing.  I hope I don't express it in too diffuse a way.  I recognized that whatever self aware spirits there may be, Luther said, "Even the devil is God's devil."  Without going into detail, I noticed that whatever was supposed to be Satan manifesting was through human beings.  Things like volcanoes, earthquakes, tidal waves and the like are in the hand of God, so they don't count.  God can lead me to be somewhere else at the right time.  It is that there weren't any independent of man Satanic manifestations of which I could think.  My personal struggles shifted from against the evil into being filled with the Spirit of Truth.  Those things keeping man going the wrong way are overcome by light and love and life.

I stopped fighting phantoms.  I accepted the devil was a defeated foe.  God's work is to put all things under the feet of the body of Christ, having already accomplished it in Jesus.  For us to be victorious we need to know the truth.  I'm complete in Him.  I'm in agreement with God.  I left off fighting something out there, realizing what I need is inward.  I need to come to an overcoming status within myself.  We can rebuke and bind the devil; but, we need to be walking out a holy life, being filled with the Holy Spirit, and continue entering into ever increasing tangible glory until we have manifest victory over death.

What is Jesus?  Spirit or flesh?  We are the flesh of God in the earth.  Not only are we part of Him, He calls us brothers and sisters.  We are not being treated according to our wrongdoing.  In fact, God is not imputing the trespasses of anyone in the world against them.  Believe in that rather than the powers of darkness.  Let everyone know about it.  Jesus testified that Satan had no part in Him.  This should be the confession of everyone.  It is deception, made possible through ignorance, which leaves any place for the devil.  Rise and shine!


your brother, James Rohde

[peacemaker]

For Willie, and All those in need  :Pray:

peacemaker

[Tony N]

BROTHER TONY-N

I'll repeat an earlier question:  Where is "satan" SPECIFICALLY NAMED and noted as "THE" ADVERSARY?"

Tony said, "Willie, because of your rudeness I will just answer this:

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

There, does that satisfy your rudeness?
Take some time off brother before you come against me with your rudeness. Next time ask me a question in the spirit of Christ rather than the Adversary."[/quote]

First things first Tony... You know well and good that I love and respect you.  So spare me the drama... You know well and good that I just wanted you to PROVE yourself and your statements which you did NOT...And by the way, it seems when YOU use SARCASM or SNIDE remarks its okay, but when YOU are so addressed (or at least percieve this), all of a sudden its "RUDE"...   :laughing7:

Dear Willie, I don't know why you said I didn't prove my statement when in fact I did.
You asked specifically where it is written where Satan is specifically named the Adversary. I proved that by quoting Revelation 20:2 where it states Satan and the Adversary are one and the same person.

Willie stated:
Second... You are so set in your tradition, that you scour any version which might support that TRADITION... :rolleye:

Tony's reply:
Willy, it is statements like the above that really sadden my heart. You and a couple others here can make these glib statements about me as if they are fact and as if they prove anything. Please, if you want any respect from me, I suggest in the future you cease making these kind of statements. The Version I used is the Concordant Version. I do not apologize for that. And I don't scour any version which might support my tradition. So why say it?

Willie wrote:
Third....  the word in Rev 20:2 that YOU note as "ADVERSARY" is NOT... This word is #G1228 Diabolos... which means FALSE ACCUSER, Devil, Slanderer... The word in Greek translated ADVERSARY is #G476 Atidikos... which means OPPONENT, ADVERSARY...

The Concordant Version renders atidikos as "plaintiff" in every occurrence and, in fact, 1 Peter 5:8 below shows atidikos as "plaintiff" and diabolos as "Adversary" in the same verse:
These are all the verses in the New Testament where atidikos is found:

(Mat 5:25)  You be humoring your plaintiff quickly while you are with him on the way, lest at some time the plaintiff may be giving you up to the judge, and the judge to the deputy, and you should be cast into jail.

(Luk 12:58)  For as you are going away with your plaintiff to a magistrate, take action on the way to be cleared from him, lest at some time he may be dragging you to the judge, and the judge will be giving you over to the sheriff, and the sheriff will be casting you into jail."

(Luk 18:3)  Now there was a widow in that city, and she came to him, saying, 'Avenge me from my plaintiff.'"

(1Pe 5:8)  Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff (atidikos), the Adversary (diabolos), is walking about as a roaring lion, seeking someone to swallow up;"

This is how the Concordant Version rendered diabolos and how many times it was rendered that according to its grammar:
WH_NA. . . GrammarTags . . CGTS . . . . .  . . .  CGES_idiom    
diabolon . . a_ Acc Sg m . . .THRU-CASTer . . . .1  Slanderer    
diabolos  . .a_ Nom Sg m . . THRU-CASTer . . . .1  slanderer    
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15  Slanderer    
diabolou . . a_ Gen Sg m . . .OF-THRU-CASTer . 1  of-Slanderer    
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .THRU-CASTer . . . 12  Slanderer    
diabolw . . .a_ Dat Sg m . . . THRU-CASTer . . . .4  Slanderer

Willie said:
You have YET to prove that there is an INDIVDUAL ADVERSARY called "THE Adversary"...

Tony's reply:
Actually, Willie, I did prove that the Adversary and Satan are one and the same by quoting Revelation 20:2. And I didn't use my tradition or scour all different kinds of bibles to prove a point which you falsely accuse me of.

[/quote]

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Whatever Tony... I have already said that we cannot find common ground, lets just leave it there... and agree to disagree...

As far as you are concerned, I am incorrect, and as far as I am concerned, I have already been where you are, concerning who and what "satan" is...

No amount of further conversation shall change either of us, so for the sake of peace, lets just drop this...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Nathan]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Whatever Tony... I have already said that we cannot find common ground, lets just leave it there... and agree to disagree...

As far as you are concerned, I am incorrect, and as far as I am concerned, I have already been where you are, concerning who and what "satan" is...

No amount of further conversation shall change either of us, so for the sake of peace, lets just drop this...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Hey Willie ... . mind if I copy and paste this?  I couldn't have said it better myself and it so applies to other arguments I've been involved in previously as well