Tentmaker Forum

Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Because my name is also Tony I'll reply  :laughing7:
For me Jesus was either flesh or flesh+spirit.
Just because a spirit can't be killed by crucifixion.
IMO a spirit can't even be touched.

If Jesus is not [the Word become] flesh, how can he be in Me?

It's not your flesh that he's in . . .if he was, you would never have another impure thought again . . you would never have another cold, lose a tooth, have a headache . . .never be overweight, underweight . . .never have another pimple . . . AND there never would have been the verse stating that flesh profits nothing. 

All your flesh is . . .is the wrapper containing your spirit.  Jesus didn't redeem your wrapper . . .he redeemed your spirit back to him.

WW . . . you are right, spirit can not be destroyed. 

Do you guys believe that Jesus can come to us in different forms?  Or in the flesh only?

Nathan:

QuoteAll your flesh is . . .is the wrapper containing your spirit.

Hi Nathan,  yep that accords  with what I've been taught,  we all have three elements to our being - body, soul and spirit (1 Thes 5:23).

Its through the spirit that we are united with God, once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.
1 Cor 6:17
But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

As you say the spirit is totally redeemned once we accept Jesus.  Our soul starts to be redeemned to, but that is only completed after death. ( i think of soul as meaning our individual spirit).

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:53:26 PM
WW . . . you are right, spirit can not be destroyed. 

So the temple mentioned in the verse is His body = flesh.
So Jesus said He was flesh.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

QuoteDo you guys believe that Jesus can come to us in different forms?  Or in the flesh only?

The power of Jesus is so vast He can come in any shape of form IMO.

QuoteQuestion . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

If I understand things correctly Jesus is not in us because He's in heaven and gave that task of guiding us to the HS?????

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:13:13 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:53:26 PM
WW . . . you are right, spirit can not be destroyed. 

So the temple mentioned in the verse is His body = flesh.
So Jesus said He was flesh.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

QuoteDo you guys believe that Jesus can come to us in different forms?  Or in the flesh only?

The power of Jesus is so vast He can come in any shape of form IMO.

QuoteQuestion . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

If I understand things correctly Jesus is not in us because He's in heaven and gave that task of guiding us to the HS?????

Yes--the temple is his flesh and ours, too, because we are flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone--


23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

--Gen 2


1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

--John 15



Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 07:19:01 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2009, 07:13:13 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:53:26 PM
WW . . . you are right, spirit can not be destroyed. 

So the temple mentioned in the verse is His body = flesh.
So Jesus said He was flesh.

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

QuoteDo you guys believe that Jesus can come to us in different forms?  Or in the flesh only?

The power of Jesus is so vast He can come in any shape of form IMO.

QuoteQuestion . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

If I understand things correctly Jesus is not in us because He's in heaven and gave that task of guiding us to the HS?????

Yes--the temple is his flesh and ours, too, because we are flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone--


23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

--Gen 2


1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

--John 15

Thats sounds familier.... :happygrin:

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:41:44 PM
Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

As to your title question, Nathan, I would answer a definite 'Yes'.

I know you know what I mean.

cp

Quote from: Molly on February 04, 2009, 07:19:01 PM
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

I'm not so convinced by that verse...
I can also read it as: Jesus is constantly in my mind. Just like you say yo your loved ones: I have locked you in my heart.
Then you express great love towards that person. I know you have a big heart Molly but I doubt your husband fits in it  :laughing7:

   we are one with His flesh..if we are considered the body of Christ...So He can 'come 'in our flesh by His Holy spirit..
actually all mankind dwelling in flesh is of His body...that
is why He came in flesh to start with..to redeem all those
of mankind

  ... I and the Father will sup with you..I knock at the door

   Rev 3;20

   keep knocking Luke 11;14

   Mattew 25;1  Parable of the ten virgins.....

   they all fell asleep..but some took oil[Holy spirit] in their
   vessels

hi everyone;don't post much... but i keep getting this umption to let it out of my spirit.
jesus is just a man in the flesh,christ is the anointing that came upon him.this anointing is available to all of us.jesus was the first(of many)begotten sons(daughters).he was showing us the way,he was showing us the truth;he was showing us the salvation we can have from the daily turmoil(the abundant life"eternal life")
jesus is the manifestation of what God is;when we see jesus-we see God.when people see us ..they should see God.this is what the world is waiting for the manifestation of the sons and daughters.praise God that all will be reconciled through his bride...i just hope it happens soon
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on February 04, 2009, 09:34:46 PM
hi everyone;don't post much... but i keep getting this umption to let it out of my spirit.
jesus is just a man in the flesh,christ is the anointing that came upon him.this anointing is available to all of us.jesus was the first(of many)begotten sons(daughters).he was showing us the way,he was showing us the truth;he was showing us the salvation we can have from the daily turmoil(the abundant life"eternal life")
jesus is the manifestation of what God is;when we see jesus-we see God.when people see us ..they should see God.this is what the world is waiting for the manifestation of the sons and daughters.praise God that all will be reconciled through his bride...i just hope it happens soon
blessings :icon_king:

Nice to hear from you Onlytruth :icon_flower:

Nathan,
Christ told His disciples He was flesh and bones and that a spirit does not have flesh and bones(cf Luke 24:39).

This does not mean Christ does not have a spirit. He does. It is that invisible, imperceptible power He has.

in 1 Peter 10,11 Peter talks about the prophets:

"searching into what or what manner of era the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."

That was before Christ came of a virgin. He sent His spirit to those prophets to inform them of the future concerning Himself (while He was still in heaven).

Christ is still sitting at the right hand of God until . . .
Act 3:21 Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Now then, while Christ as He is comprised of flesh and bones and spirit (without blood, since He shed His blood for all mankind) and is seated in heaven UNTIL . . . this does not mean He cannot send His spirit to us. It is that same spirit which raised Him from the dead which will also raise us from the dead. We have His spirit. This does not mean that His spirit vacated His flesh and bone body in heaven and He is now spiritless.

We also have God's spirit in us. This does not mean God vacated His spirit and gave it all to us. God is still spirit and fills heaven and earth.

I must give my total affirmation to CP; the answer he gave of "YES." I am humbled. Dave

Just for the sake of clarification cp . . .the "yes" would then be saying that he is flesh because I am flesh and he is manifesting himself "through" me . . . is this what you're seeing?

A question to others . . .if Christ is literally in the same flesh that he was in 2000 years ago . .in that the body he had then is the same body he has now as he sits at the rigth hand of God . . .has Christ always been flesh then?  What was he before he came as Jesus?

Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Just for the sake of clarification cp . . .the "yes" would then be saying that he is flesh because I am flesh and he is manifesting himself "through" me . . . is this what you're seeing?

A question to others . . .if Christ is literally in the same flesh that he was in 2000 years ago . .in that the body he had then is the same body he has now as he sits at the rigth hand of God . . .has Christ always been flesh then?  What was he before he came as Jesus?

Hey Nathan,

You have helped me see something in a more clear way. Your question stopped me short when I came to the word 'always'. This is the crux of the matter to me. 'Always' denotes time and I believe God and Jesus live outside of that realm. They live in it too of course but I think Gods home turf is where there is no time.

Jesus Christ is. He is flesh eternally somehow and He is spirit eternally somehow. Whatever Jesus 'was' He is eternally. Yes, He is being crucified eternally but it is finished eternally too. Now take that with a couple of beers and see where you end up. I usually end up in la la land but I keep going back to God for more!

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:38:44 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Just for the sake of clarification cp . . .the "yes" would then be saying that he is flesh because I am flesh and he is manifesting himself "through" me . . . is this what you're seeing?

A question to others . . .if Christ is literally in the same flesh that he was in 2000 years ago . .in that the body he had then is the same body he has now as he sits at the rigth hand of God . . .has Christ always been flesh then?  What was he before he came as Jesus?

Hey Nathan,

You have helped me see something in a more clear way. Your question stopped me short when I came to the word 'always'. This is the crux of the matter to me. 'Always' denotes time and I believe God and Jesus live outside of that realm. They live in it too of course but I think Gods home turf is where there is no time.

Jesus Christ is. He is flesh eternally somehow and He is spirit eternally somehow. Whatever Jesus 'was' He is eternally. Yes, He is being crucified eternally but it is finished eternally too. Now take that with a couple of beers and see where you end up. I usually end up in la la land but I keep going back to God for more!

cp

claypot, me thinks ye be havin a bit way too much of that beer.
Such philosophy is not to be found in the Scriptures.
I am beginning to see a crack in your pot. You know what that means? he he.

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:08:11 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:38:44 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Just for the sake of clarification cp . . .the "yes" would then be saying that he is flesh because I am flesh and he is manifesting himself "through" me . . . is this what you're seeing?

A question to others . . .if Christ is literally in the same flesh that he was in 2000 years ago . .in that the body he had then is the same body he has now as he sits at the rigth hand of God . . .has Christ always been flesh then?  What was he before he came as Jesus?

Hey Nathan,

You have helped me see something in a more clear way. Your question stopped me short when I came to the word 'always'. This is the crux of the matter to me. 'Always' denotes time and I believe God and Jesus live outside of that realm. They live in it too of course but I think Gods home turf is where there is no time.

Jesus Christ is. He is flesh eternally somehow and He is spirit eternally somehow. Whatever Jesus 'was' He is eternally. Yes, He is being crucified eternally but it is finished eternally too. Now take that with a couple of beers and see where you end up. I usually end up in la la land but I keep going back to God for more!

cp

claypot, me thinks ye be havin a bit way too much of that beer.
Such philosophy is not to be found in the Scriptures.
I am beginning to see a crack in your pot. You know what that means? he he.

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

Good counter  :thumbsup:

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 04:38:44 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 03:58:57 PM
Just for the sake of clarification cp . . .the "yes" would then be saying that he is flesh because I am flesh and he is manifesting himself "through" me . . . is this what you're seeing?

A question to others . . .if Christ is literally in the same flesh that he was in 2000 years ago . .in that the body he had then is the same body he has now as he sits at the rigth hand of God . . .has Christ always been flesh then?  What was he before he came as Jesus?

Hey Nathan,

You have helped me see something in a more clear way. Your question stopped me short when I came to the word 'always'. This is the crux of the matter to me. 'Always' denotes time and I believe God and Jesus live outside of that realm. They live in it too of course but I think Gods home turf is where there is no time.

Jesus Christ is. He is flesh eternally somehow and He is spirit eternally somehow. Whatever Jesus 'was' He is eternally. Yes, He is being crucified eternally but it is finished eternally too. Now take that with a couple of beers and see where you end up. I usually end up in la la land but I keep going back to God for more!

cp

I'll take that beer and raise you a keg!  (seriously . . .I do hate the flavor of beer . . . now . .mixed drinks on the other hand . . .ya boy!!!)

I love your POV on the time issue.  God doesn't live by time, we do.  The fact that we base our time according to the sun is quite a picture in and of itself.  That aside . . .I see that Christ has always been a spirit.  God is a spirit . . .and Christ is his son . .which is also spirit . . .and the Holy Spirit is spirit.  The son manfested as Christ "in the flesh" to redeem men which are spirits living in flesh back to God . .who is spirit.  

When it was finished, Jesus flesh died on the cross, was buried . . .his spirit went to the core of man, the place of the dead . .and he exercised his life in that realm of death, which manifested the authority of life over death . . .and as a result, his body of flesh was resurrected IN A NEW STATE OF BEING.  At which point, he was flesh in that he could be touched, but he was spirit in that he was not bound by the physics of this earth.  I don't seem him manifesting in his old flesh just to show everyone he was flesh . . .I believe he manifested in this realm to show that he "is" the resurrection.  It was for our benefit that he came in the flesh because that's what he promised to do.  And when that promise was complete, he went back into the spirit, which is where he's been ever since.  

The spirit in me is the spirit that was in him, yes.  But it's also him in me as well.  That's where the separation of understanding comes in because my mind wants to see a difinitive line between God, Jesus, and the Spirit . . .even though Jesus bent over backward trying to explain that the three are all "one".

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 05:24:28 PM

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Did I call you a crackpot? Not me!  :laughing7:
What you wrote is not beyond me, it is beneath me. Philosophy should have no part of our theology as the Bible is dead set against the wisdom of this world. To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:45:34 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 05:24:28 PM

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Did I call you a crackpot? Not me!  :laughing7:
What you wrote is not beyond me, it is beneath me. Philosophy should have no part of our theology as the Bible is dead set against the wisdom of this world. To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

Bats that live in caves seem to see everything that is above them, is beneath them to,  just like you do . ..  That is until they're no longer hanging upside down and begin to fly. :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:45:34 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 05:24:28 PM

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Did I call you a crackpot? Not me!  :laughing7:
What you wrote is not beyond me, it is beneath me. Philosophy should have no part of our theology as the Bible is dead set against the wisdom of this world. To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

Philosophy means a love of wisdom. Wisdom is truth believed and lived out.

Tony, according to you, there is only physical ground beneath you.

Are you going to answer any of my questions over on the 'other' thread or I have lost favor in your sight and you deem me beneath you?

Search the Scriptures and you will see I speak of what is in them. I only seek to honor God by living and seeing life through only His Word so unless you can tell me you know all there is to know of Scripture please refrain from making absurd comments like "To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing." You are way out of your league in this Brother.

cp

  Hi Guys,

   I was just watching on the science channel..how we see.

   The gift of vision and the perception of what we see.

   I thought of how Jesus said..If you have seen me,you have

  seen the Father.

    Also ,on the show they had the picture in black and white

   of a vase, or two silhouetes[?] of a man's face,facing

   one another. The brain can not comprehend the duality of

   what is seen at the same time... the scientist on the

   program said something I found profound about it


     PERCEPTION IS ALWAYS AN OPINION...IT INVOLVES

     JUDGEMENT OF THE OBSERVOR


  why did God send His son in flesh.?..so we could comprehend

  Him...or know Him or see Him.


  Regarding that judgement of the observor...I think of what

  the Pharisees and Sadducees perceived Jesus to be....

  and I think of the wittnesses/disciples of Him, and how they

  perceived Him to be.


    I think of Christendom and how they perceive him to be,

    all the various denomination's and their perceptions.

    Also, the Muslims,and their perception of God.

        And finally, I think of us, and our various perceptions.

  and the  involving of judgement of the observor..as to what

  he perceives....

    and then the  one act  of justification[Romans 5;18] by the

  Son of God

  Matthew 7;2 Judge not,that ye be not judged. For with

  what judgement ye judge,ye shall be judged; and with what

  measure ye mete,it shall be measured to you again.


    Rev 14;7  Fear God and give Glory to Him; for the Hour of

  His judgement is come.[Rev15;4] ...and all nations shall come

 and worship before thee; for THY JUDGEMENTS are made

 manifest

   Rev 19;2  For TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS ARE HIS JUDGEMENTS;

  FOR HE HATH JUDGED THE GREAT WHORE,WHICH DID

  CORRUPT THE EARTH WITH HER FORNICATION,AND HATH

  AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS SERVANTS AT HER HAND


                                      Sheila

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

:Chinscratch:
The eternally crucified part I don't really like. But eternally finished is Biblically correct IMO.
When Jesus was on earth He prepared and completed the path to our salvation. That path will be there eternally.
He doesn't need to repeat that task every x years. So its finished eternally.

Hi there all,

This subject is very interesting. I get so confused about who Jesus is, who should we pray to, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, etc.
I have just read a book by Eric Butterworth and he explains it very well.

Jesus was the man of flesh but he became The Christ, that is He believed that He was literally a part of God and that the kingdom of heaven was within Him not without. He also said that we could all become The Christ, that is know that God is our Father and that all things are ours if we truly believe it.  The scriptures say that Christ is the light that shines every man who comes into the world, it's just that they don't know it or believe it.
So maybe I can pray to God as Christ did, not to Christ but through Him, as if I am Christ.

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 06:05:42 PM

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:45:34 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 05, 2009, 05:24:28 PM

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Did I call you a crackpot? Not me!  :laughing7:
What you wrote is not beyond me, it is beneath me. Philosophy should have no part of our theology as the Bible is dead set against the wisdom of this world. To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

Philosophy means a love of wisdom. Wisdom is truth believed and lived out.

Tony, according to you, there is only physical ground beneath you.

Are you going to answer any of my questions over on the 'other' thread or I have lost favor in your sight and you deem me beneath you?

Search the Scriptures and you will see I speak of what is in them. I only seek to honor God by living and seeing life through only His Word so unless you can tell me you know all there is to know of Scripture please refrain from making absurd comments like "To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing." You are way out of your league in this Brother.

cp

cp if you would read that other board you would note I have answered you.

The bible knows nothing of Christ being eternaly crucified and eternally finished. I am out of your league which suits me fine. The wisdom of this world God has made stupid. I have no part in it and have no need of it.

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 06:14:02 PM

Quote from: Tony N on February 05, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

:Chinscratch:
The eternally crucified part I don't really like. But eternally finished is Biblically correct IMO.
When Jesus was on earth He prepared and completed the path to our salvation. That path will be there eternally.
He doesn't need to repeat that task every x years. So its finished eternally.

Hey WW, I do hear ya on the crucifixion thing and I will attempt an explanation. First I want to say to Tony that I am seeing you comment on my questions and I thank you and ask for forgiveness for my impatience.

OK, to me God is an eternal God. All He is and does is eternal. I can see it no other way. All of human life including Jesus before, during and after the cross is like a picture IMO. No part of this picture can ever be erased, ever. I think I will always be a little boy in Gods eyes and I will always be a mature man too. Jesus stressed that He is the I AM.

I don't see Jesus suffering all the time like we understand it. I do see His suffering (our suffering) as finished yet in some untimeful way I see suffering as always in the picture. From our new mind of Christ and new body perspective I know there will be no pain, misery, suffering of any kind or sin associated with this eternal event but the event will be eternal as God is.

I like this view because I believe I will never learn all there is to learn from the act of Gods heart in the crucifixion of His Son. Now I see much shame, pain and suffering in the cross but I believe there is much more there that when seen with new eyes will be beautiful.

Words fail me but I hope this helps.

cp 

Hey Tony, you wrote....

The bible knows nothing of Christ being eternaly crucified and eternally finished. I am out of your league which suits me fine. The wisdom of this world God has made stupid. I have no part in it and have no need of it.

Couldn't disagree and agree with you more Brother, and in that order too.

Thanks again for your patience with me.

cp

It reminds me of a one-liner: "Time is to prevent all things happening at once"

If I understand your reply correctly because God is timeless for Him do all things happen at the same time.
God has no past. God has no future. God only has now.

Is that what you are saying?

hi nathan
if jesus is one ...God ,holy spirit("trinity").then if the spirit is in us,would we also be considered one in God. does this make us part of the trinity??or is God just part of all and He wishes to manifest himself like He did through jesus completely?
blessings :icon_king:

In short . . .yup.
The Father is Light . . Jesus is the same light . .illuminating in different forms.  Scripture says that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light . . .original definitions . . .the adversary (my carnal mind) can disguise (pervert the original form of . .) himself as an angel (angel simply means messenger/message) of light.  In other words, my mind can interpret truth, through natural reasoning (that's the "himself" part) and come up with a perverted distortion of the original image. 

When Christ is in me, his light shines through me . . . Depending on where others are, when they see you/me, the see God/Christ/Holy Spirit manifesting through us . . .but all things must first come through the Son before receiving the inherited things of the Father.

That help?

hi again,
is it jesus or the anointing(christ) that we go through?i tend to lean towards the idea that jesus was the example,  and as he said- he had to leave in order for the comforter to come to us.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on February 05, 2009, 08:43:20 PM
hi again,
is it jesus or the anointing(christ) that we go through?i tend to lean towards the idea that jesus was the example,  and as he said- he had to leave in order for the comforter to come to us.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

Okay, for me . . .I'll be a little brave and say this ..even though my head hasn't heard all of it yet . . .

I see that Jesus was born in the flesh . .to become the Christ . . .but it wasn't until the Jordan river that this actually came to be.  The anointing came when he submitted himself to the hands of his forerunner and manifested what was yet to come, being buried in the river of death . . .and being resurrected in a river of life.  At that resurrection, the anointing came and drove him into the wilderness where natural food was withheld from him and spiritual strength would manifest in him as he subdued his biggest enemy first, before dealing with the temple next, and then the people after . . .holy crap!  I never saw that before!!

That's the dimensions all over again.  He was driven into the wilderness to overcome his carnal man . . .his "inner" nature . . .the flesh in his holy of holies 3rd dimension. . .he then went from the wilderness into the temple and gave notice to the corporate body 2nd dimension, that the prophesies were being fulfilled before their very eyes . . .this is the acceptable year of the Lord . . .and then he took it to all of the region, to all physical men . . .3rd dimension

But as to the original question . . .he was Jesus of Nazereth to many, but he became Jesus Christ . .Jesus the anointed at the river . . .

i knew there was a spiritual dimension to" crap"-ha ha.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 05, 2009, 07:22:28 PM
It reminds me of a one-liner: "Time is to prevent all things happening at once"

If I understand your reply correctly because God is timeless for Him do all things happen at the same time.
God has no past. God has no future. God only has now.

Is that what you are saying?

That is very close to what I am saying and seeing WW. Time and space are key ingredients to this puzzle we call life. I think God so enjoys our seeking Him out and I think the time/space elements are keys in unraveling the mysteries of Scripture. Also I think God kind of lovingly taunted us to pursue this train of thought throughout Scripture in places where Jesus says 'I am' and when it just plain talks about the eternal Godhead.

cp

Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 08:01:34 PM
In short . . .yup.
The Father is Light . . Jesus is the same light . .illuminating in different forms.  Scripture says that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light . . .original definitions . . .the adversary (my carnal mind) can disguise (pervert the original form of . .) himself as an angel (angel simply means messenger/message) of light.  In other words, my mind can interpret truth, through natural reasoning (that's the "himself" part) and come up with a perverted distortion of the original image. 

When Christ is in me, his light shines through me . . . Depending on where others are, when they see you/me, the see God/Christ/Holy Spirit manifesting through us . . .but all things must first come through the Son before receiving the inherited things of the Father.

That help?

Another fine meal you offer up Bro.
cp

Quote from: NathanBut as to the original question . . .he was Jesus of Nazereth to many, but he became Jesus Christ . .Jesus the anointed at the river . . .

Yes, of course.  He came to show us the Way.

Didn't your big brother ever teach you to ski?

Follow me and do what I do--even though he has long since passed the beginner's hill, and can fly over moguls on the expert slopes...he lowers himself for you---to teach you...

Take up your cross and follow me...said by the Creator of the universe..my goodness...

John the Baptist was his preceding angel...I will send my angel before me, He says in Malachi...

When John sees him---He identifies him--Behold, the Lamb of God...

But, even John is surprised and shaken....You want me to do what?...I am not worthy to even tie your shoes...

Jesus tells him, do it, to fulfill all righteousness...

This is the Way...

Follow me...do what I do...turn when I turn...bend when I bend...rise up when I rise up...

And we will make it down the hill together.

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:41:44 PM
Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Spirit (ruah) - is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. The word is used of one's mind or thinking.

Spirit (pneuma) - the Spirit is said to dwell in the minds of Christians. purpose.

Paul uses spirit and mind interchangeably as he quotes Isaiah 40:13 in the New Testament. Let's take a look at these verses.

Isaiah 40:13: "Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or has instructed Him as His counselor?"

Romans 11:34: "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"

1 Corinthians 2:16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel Him?"

It is clear that for Paul, the spirit of the LORD is the mind of the LORD. These definitions are crucial in order to understand many verses of the Bible. If you are one in spirit with Jesus it means that you are one in mind with Jesus. That you have the same mind-set, the same disposition, that you think the same as he does. This after all is what a Christian strives for, to try to reach the example of faith that Jesus showed us. To be able to discern the will of God as Jesus did so perfectly. We are told to have the same mind, the same attitude as Christ.  

Examples:
1 Corinthians 2:16: "But we have the mind of Christ."

Philippians 2:2: "Complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing."

1 Peter 4:1: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same attitude, for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin, so as not to spend what remains of one's life on human desires, but on the will of God."

Philippians 2:5: "Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus."

With these definitions we can better understand a verse like  

1 Corinthians 7:17:
"But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."

In other words, whoever unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."

Galatians 6:1: "Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one with the spirit of gentleness."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Deuteronomy 34:9: "Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom."

Genesis 41:8: "Next morning his spirit was agitated."

Hope this helps,
Paul

Quote from: WhitewingsI can also read it as: Jesus is constantly in my mind. Just like you say yo your loved ones: I have locked you in my heart.
Then you express great love towards that person. I know you have a big heart Molly but I doubt your husband fits in it 

The Brain -- is wider than the Sky --
For -- put them side by side --
The one the other will contain
With ease -- and You -- beside --

The Brain is deeper than the sea --
For -- hold them -- Blue to Blue --
The one the other will absorb --
As Sponges -- Buckets -- do --

The Brain is just the weight of God --
For -- Heft them -- Pound for Pound --
And they will differ -- if they do --
As Syllable from Sound --

--Emily Dickinson

Quote from: Molly on February 05, 2009, 11:40:57 PM

Quote from: WhitewingsI can also read it as: Jesus is constantly in my mind. Just like you say yo your loved ones: I have locked you in my heart.
Then you express great love towards that person. I know you have a big heart Molly but I doubt your husband fits in it 

The Brain -- is wider than the Sky --
For -- put them side by side --
The one the other will contain
With ease -- and You -- beside --

The Brain is deeper than the sea --
For -- hold them -- Blue to Blue --
The one the other will absorb --
As Sponges -- Buckets -- do --

The Brain is just the weight of God --
For -- Heft them -- Pound for Pound --
And they will differ -- if they do --
As Syllable from Sound --

--Emily Dickinson

I like it Molly. I am indebted to you again!

cp

2 Cr 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know no man after the flesh; Yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

If we know no man after the flesh or Christ after the flesh then it appears that we are to know Christ and our fellow mankind in spirit because after the flesh we are not to know any man after the flesh.

Peace,
Fire Walker

John the Baptist has been given a mission from God to identify the Messiah.  He is the voice crying in the wilderness--Prepare the way for the LORD.


15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.


The book of John gives us an interesting insight into how John the Baptist identified Jesus.

John was told by God---look for the one upon whom the Spirit from heaven  stays---He's the one.  John tells us--he doesn't know what the Christ will look like in the flesh.


31And I knew him not:...

32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


John tells us he was told by God what to look for--the Spirit, not the flesh--


33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

--John 1



:bgdance:

Quote from: Pierac on February 05, 2009, 10:34:29 PM

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:41:44 PM
Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Spirit (ruah) - is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. The word is used of one's mind or thinking.

Spirit (pneuma) - the Spirit is said to dwell in the minds of Christians. purpose.

Paul uses spirit and mind interchangeably as he quotes Isaiah 40:13 in the New Testament. Let's take a look at these verses.

Isaiah 40:13: "Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or has instructed Him as His counselor?"

Romans 11:34: "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"

1 Corinthians 2:16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel Him?"

It is clear that for Paul, the spirit of the LORD is the mind of the LORD. These definitions are crucial in order to understand many verses of the Bible. If you are one in spirit with Jesus it means that you are one in mind with Jesus. That you have the same mind-set, the same disposition, that you think the same as he does. This after all is what a Christian strives for, to try to reach the example of faith that Jesus showed us. To be able to discern the will of God as Jesus did so perfectly. We are told to have the same mind, the same attitude as Christ.  

Examples:
1 Corinthians 2:16: "But we have the mind of Christ."

Philippians 2:2: "Complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing."

1 Peter 4:1: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same attitude, for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin, so as not to spend what remains of one's life on human desires, but on the will of God."

Philippians 2:5: "Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus."

With these definitions we can better understand a verse like  

1 Corinthians 7:17:
"But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."

In other words, whoever unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."

Galatians 6:1: "Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one with the spirit of gentleness."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Deuteronomy 34:9: "Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom."

Genesis 41:8: "Next morning his spirit was agitated."

Hope this helps,
Paul

Paul, Pierac, that was downright beautiful! Wow! Now that is what I call a great lesson. I learned something new and beautiful! Kudos dude!

Tony

         :HeartThrob:


     John  4;24  God is a spirit,and his worshippers MUST Worship

     in spirit and truth.  The woman said'I know Messiah is

   coming[called Christ] When he comes he will declare

  everything to us" Jesus declared 'I who speak to you,am he'


      John 16;13,14   I have much more to say to you,more than

   you can now bear. But when he,the spirit of truth comes,

   he will guide you into all truth.He will not speak on his own,

   he will speak only what he hears,and he will tell you what is

   yet to come. He will bring glory to me,by taking from what

   is mine and making it known to you.


                               

Quote from: Nathan on February 04, 2009, 06:41:44 PM
Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Haven't had a chance to review the whole thread, but if you can answer for me how Jesus could walk through the walls to meet with the disciples after His resurrection and say that He's flesh and bone, then you've answered your own question.  This is the biggy that John got into in 1John that those that deny that Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of AntiChrist.  This gets sticky on the doctrine of the resurrection and subjects about the Godhead that we've had to sensor in the past because they got too explosive on the boards.

Quote from: fire walker on February 06, 2009, 10:33:11 AM
2 Cr 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know no man after the flesh; Yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

No time to elaborate right now, but "both in the flesh and in the Lord" in Philemon.  And that's from Paul the aged "having confidence in the Lord that you'll do even more than I say" which is totally different than the mess he was working through at Corinth.  Hoping to have at least a very short verse by verse written soon on that so people have some kind of an idea of where I'm going with the book of Philemon since it's such a neglected epistle and 9 out of 10 commentaries that'll even bother with it have the story entirely wrong not knowing/realizing that it's an emancipation proclamation and an ordination letter.  Very, very timely message for the mainstream Church that's been in a form of imprisonment, but that's nonetheless giving birth to this Onesimus generation that are useful both in the flesh and in the Lord 'cause their birthing has been completed and they're everything to the world and to the Church that Jesus is.

Jesus is both spirit and flesh right now and He's both spirit and flesh within us according to John 17, 1John 5, and 2Corinthians 13.  Yet the Holy Spirit is distinct according to the Gospel of John and Romans; another one just like Jesus, who leans towards not speaking of/from Himself, but only repeats what He hears and glorifies Jesus; the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead...

Quote from: onlytruth on February 05, 2009, 07:45:57 PM
then if the spirit is in us,would we also be considered one in God.

Yes

Quote from: onlytruth on February 05, 2009, 07:45:57 PM
does this make us part of the trinity??

Yes

Quote from: onlytruth on February 05, 2009, 07:45:57 PM
or is God just part of all....?

Nope.  Scripture's clear about those that don't have the Spirit in Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, Hebrews, 1John, Revelation, and elsewhere.  1Corinthians 15 makes God being "all in all" a separate, distinct, and future era from the reign of Christ Jesus.  Hebrews says "we see not yet all things under Him, but we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor by the grace of God..."

Quoteif you can answer for me how Jesus could walk through the walls to meet with the disciples after His resurrection and say that He's flesh and bone, then you've answered your own question.

When He became visible to them He said:
Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

His flesh and bones matched the vibrational frequency of the atoms in the wall and thus He walked through the wall. Either that, He is able to move through different dimmensions of time and space, like Philip who, right after the eunuch went under water as he was being baptized and came up, Philip was gone but at that instant was seen in another city:

Act 8:39 Now when they stepped up out of the water, the spirit of the Lord snatches away Philip, and the eunuch did not perceive him any longer, for he went his way rejoicing."
Act 8:40 Now Philip was found in Azotus, and, passing through, he brought the evangel to all the cities, till his coming into Caesarea."

A spirit cannot eat fish Luk 24:42 Now they hand Him part of a broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and, taking it, He ate before them."

Tony . . .no one is arguing whether or not Jesus was flesh "then".  The question I propose is not about whether or not he was flesh then .. .but is he flesh now . .. you seem to be implying that he is "still" flesh . .even though he's sitting at the right hand of God . . which is a spiritual place and a spiritual father . . ."that's" where it just doesn't seem to add up for me.

Quote from: Nathan on February 06, 2009, 04:46:47 PM
Tony . . .no one is arguing whether or not Jesus was flesh "then".  The question I propose is not about whether or not he was flesh then .. .but is he flesh now . .. you seem to be implying that he is "still" flesh . .even though he's sitting at the right hand of God . . which is a spiritual place and a spiritual father . . ."that's" where it just doesn't seem to add up for me.

Nathan, you are spiritual yet still have flesh and bones.
1Co 14:37 If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord."

1Co 2:15 Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one."

1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.

Even though it is roused a spiritual body this does not mean the body is no longer flesh and bones. It is still a body. Spiritual is the adjectival form of "spirit" and just has to duty of telling us of that which pertains to the spirit.
The soulish body is not a soul without a body because we are all soulish bodies. It is just a body which has its leanings toward the soul, senses, desires. Likewise the spiritual body is not a spirit without a body. It is a body which has its leanings toward the spirit.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man should be precipitated, also, in some offense, you, who are spiritual, be attuning such a one, in a spirit of meekness, noting yourself, that you, also, may not be tried."

Those in the Galatian ecclesia who were spiritual still had bodies.

   Tony,

    those resurrected at the earthquake arose in this new

spiritual flesh..and entered the Holy city.....

   that was showing what happens to man when he is

   resurrected...Jesus Christ rose the same..and clothes us with

  His own flesh and bones...BUT WHEN YOU ENTER THAT

  HOLY CITY JERUSALEM ABOVE..THERE IS NO TEMPLE

  IN IT...YOU LIVE IN SPIRIT FORM WITH SPIRIT BODY


  the Word of God[which is spirit] That come in flesh

  returns to that city[Jerusalem Above] the spirit returns to God

  of which there is no temple in it

  in other words..the New Earth enters the Heavenly spiritual

   realms. Glory to Glory..the Glory of the flesh[resurrected]

  is one glory..the Glory of the spirit another..celestial,terrestial.


   if the resurrected bodies entered old jerusalem..of course

   they would die,again......but I think they may have visited the

old Jerusalem..and bore wittness to their resurrection..and then

  entered into the Holy City,Jerusalem Above..for the secound

  death would not have hurt them...

  In fact, I beleive all mankind is resurrected in the first

  resurrection this way..It's a first resurrection if your dead,isn't

  it.  but still, the nations must bring their Glory into it.

    the new heavens[Rev 21;24 ] the nations will walk by it's

light and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it

Sheila, the bible knows no such thing as a "spirit body."

We humans have a soulish body. We still have a flesh and bones body.
We will have a spiritual body. We will still have a flesh and bones body.

It doesn't say we will have a "spirit body."

1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:
the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."

When Adam because a living soul did he lose his flesh and bones? No.
When Christ became a vivifying spirit, did He lose His flesh and bones? No.

Humans are called "souls." Act 27:37 Now we were, in all, two hundred seventy six souls in the ship."

Did those souls on that ship lose their flesh and bones? No.

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Tony, you wrote.....

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Just curious. For those people whose bodies of flesh and bone were basically vaporized by a bomb or fire or just rotted away and thus have no more flesh and bone to raise, what is it that is raised then from your physical point of view?

Do you believe God is only spirit in essence?

cp

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 06:18:54 PM
Sheila, the bible knows no such thing as a "spirit body."

We humans have a soulish body. We still have a flesh and bones body.
We will have a spiritual body. We will still have a flesh and bones body.

It doesn't say we will have a "spirit body."

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Tony, I agree in one sense yet am confused in another. What's the difference between spiritual body and spirit body. This spiritual body will have no blood, right? It can dematerialize or materialize at will? This almost sounds like you are describing a body that is spirit and can take on a flesh form if it so desires or are you describing a flesh body that can be spirit if it wishes.

cp

OnlyTruth, I enjoyed your post. It is very simple and easy to understand. Most of this stuff can give you the head spins.

Regarding the type of body we are raised in, it is not flesh and blood, nor is it spiritual flesh(kind of an oxymoron isn't it  :laughing7: ), but it is a spiritual body(1 Cor 15:44).

I have always viewed the following verses as pertaining to a moment in time growing up, but the other day, I saw them from a different perspective. From the perspective that the last trump is physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (as in the patriarchs of old going to Hades), but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (when we die). For the trumpet will sound, the dead (us) will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable (our souls) must clothe itself with the imperishable (a spiritual body that Christ said He would go and prepare a place for us), and the mortal (our souls) with immortality (spiritual body). When the perishable (our souls) has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 06:28:50 PM
Tony, you wrote.....

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Just curious. For those people whose bodies of flesh and bone were basically vaporized by a bomb or fire or just rotted away and thus have no more flesh and bone to raise, what is it that is raised then from your physical point of view?

Do you believe God is only spirit in essence?

cp

God can and will put them back together again. Most, if not all the billions of people from Adam to Noah, are dust blowing in the wind. But God will bring them back from the dead. He has the blueprints of everyone who ever lived recorded in His Spirit as well as their thoughts and memories etc. since He is everywhere at all times and "in Him we are moving and living and all" and "He gives to all life and breath and all." (Acts 17). He is so powerful that He can raise people to worship Jesus from stones.

The Bible says that "God is spirit." "Is" is italic and not in Greek texts. Usually when the "is" is missing it signifies something is literally what the writer wishes to convey.
God is spirit and He fills heaven and earth. God metaphorically is light.


"God is light" (1 John 1:5) Had John Said "God light" it would have been literal. Since John used "is" it is a figure of speech.

Of course this does not hold in absolutely every case in Greek.

For instance Jesus said of the bread "This is My body." Had He said "This My body" the Catholics (God bless 'em) might have a leg to stand on in changing the bread into the literal body of Christ.

Likewise Jesus said of the wine: "This is My blood." Was the wine literaly His blood? No. It is a figure of speech.

A "figure" of speach . . . It's a word "picture".  Romans 1:20 . . .God uses natural to reveal spiritual .. . natural "things" "events" "experiences" to reveal his true character and nature to and in us. 

It is clear to me that Christ did not come into the natural to establish religious law . . by "fulfilling" it, he did away with it's power over us.  Another "figure" in speech. 

Using literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

Dear Nathan, how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

sing literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The spirit descending on Jesus was a literal descending. "like a dove" if figurative.

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Jesus literally overthrew the tables etc. There is nothing figurative about that.

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

Tony, you wrote to Nathan I think....

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality.

Just a thought.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 07, 2009, 12:25:04 AM
Tony, you wrote to Nathan I think....

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality.

Just a thought.

cp

I really like your definition cp.
Let's use it to look at this figure:

"Mat 26:26 Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body."
Mat 26:27 And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all,
Mat 26:28 for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."

In effect He was saying My body is like this bread.
The wine in the cup He said "is My blood." It was not literally His blood. It is a figure of speech in that it is, using cp's definition of figurative, "An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality."

Very good cp. Very good indeed.

Tony

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 11:43:03 PM
Dear Nathan, how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

sing literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The spirit descending on Jesus was a literal descending. "like a dove" if figurative.

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Jesus literally overthrew the tables etc. There is nothing figurative about that.

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

I did it that way on purpose.  You used the same exact thing when you mentioned the bread and the wine resembling something other than what they were.  When Jesus stated 'this is my blood' . . you stated that it was a figure of speech.  If I wanted to be argumentative . . .I could push you back with that and ask . . .how do you know it wasn't really blood?  He turned water into wine . .what would make you think that he can't turn wine into blood?

But "I choose" to agree with you . . thus, there's no real argument.  But when I mention satan (adversary) tempting Christ . . .you choose to argue the matter rather than agree with the fact that "it's possible".  With you, your doctrine is more important than our relationship.  I think that's also partly why that other thread where you finally walked away from, got to the level of argument that it did.  You're very quick to assume the extreme. 

When I mentioned the dove . . I never said that it wasn't literal . .what I said was, that the picture of the dove hovering over Christ is a "figure" (mental image) of speech (image put into words).  Yet you always jump to conclusions and create arguments that are just unnecessary.  You love making us defend ourselves . . .and you seem to have taken this self-appointed task to make everyone straight . .when the rule you are using doesn't match up with the message intended to be shared.  If I were to ask you if I'm right or not, then I could understand your speed at making your opinions known. 

The biggest part of edifying one another . . .is that we find a way to come into an agreement with another . . .not emphasize all the differences.  your words of correction as to how I coin the phrase "figure of speech" does nothing to bring my relationship with Christ to a closer/better/ more matture place.

Hi Nathan, sorry. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. I was just sharing my view.

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 11:43:03 PM
... how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

James, the brother of Jesus, and the leader of the church in Jerusalem was thrown from the pinnacle (southeast corner) of the Temple over a hundred feet down. He refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club.

Ironically, this is the same pinnacle that Jesus was shown during his temptation which was built by man in his culminating point of success, power and fame. Not by a supernatural entity.

Sort of looks like the base of an Egyptian pyramid and a tower of Babel, for those who wanted Christ to dash himself against the rocks below.

A picture of the southeast corner - the Pinnacle of the Temple, can be viewed here:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/RelEd&CISOPTR=2171&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

So, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."
Think about it   :Book:  :JCThink:

peacemaker

My eyes are seeing the same . . .

Quote from: peacemaker on February 08, 2009, 01:17:20 AM

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 11:43:03 PM
... how do you know Satan did not literally tempt Jesus?

James, the brother of Jesus, and the leader of the church in Jerusalem was thrown from the pinnacle (southeast corner) of the Temple over a hundred feet down. He refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club.

Ironically, this is the same pinnacle that Jesus was shown during his temptation which was built by man in his culminating point of success, power and fame. Not by a supernatural entity.

Sort of looks like the base of an Egyptian pyramid and a tower of Babel, for those who wanted Christ to dash himself against the rocks below.

A picture of the southeast corner - the Pinnacle of the Temple, can be viewed here:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/RelEd&CISOPTR=2171&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

So, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."
Think about it   :Book:  :JCThink:

peacemaker

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was posessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

Okay . .that is a great question. 

One of your arguments "to me" is that you don't believe that there is an adversary in a person who has Christ in them as well.  If that be the case . . .then how is it that Jesus would not only be at the same table . .but Jesus broke the same bread, poured the same cup . . .and even washed Judas feet . . .and after all of that . . "while" Judas was in the presence of Jesus . . .the devil entered him.

You're calling it demon possession . . .or satan possession . . .we're calling it feeding the carnality within us. . . or at least I am anyway.

The thing that got Judas to do what he did was his own greed.  His relationship with Jesus wasn't as important to him as fattening his wallet.  But for me . .personally .  . I also don't believe that Judas hated Jesus or didn't believe him . . .I think that Judas did what everyone else did . .they took Jesus words literally.  Judas really expected Jesus to "be" the physical king of Israel . . .and selling him to the Pharisees would then force Jesus hand to reveal to the world that he was the next king. 

When it became obvious to Judas that Jesus was not going to survive the cross . . .he couldn't handle the guilt of what he'd done and never did understand that everything Jesus did and said was for a spiritual fulfillment and benefit and not a literal physical one.

At any rate . . . saying that Judas could be fed, led, washed, and still in the presence of Jesus when he become possessed by the devil . .literally . . .is really no different in saying that "in" me there is spirit and carnality . .there is Godliness .  .and ungodliness.  Which ever one I feed, is the one that consumes me.

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 11:43:03 PM

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was possessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

Not at all, Tony, you are entitled to your own thoughts, or those of another.
And, no "Jesus was not possessed" with the thoughts of others, unlike Judas.

But thanks for asking!

peacemaker

Quote from: Nathan on February 08, 2009, 03:11:02 AM
Okay . .that is a great question. 

One of your arguments "to me" is that you don't believe that there is an adversary in a person who has Christ in them as well.  If that be the case . . .then how is it that Jesus would not only be at the same table . .but Jesus broke the same bread, poured the same cup . . .and even washed Judas feet . . .and after all of that . . "while" Judas was in the presence of Jesus . . .the devil entered him.

You're calling it demon possession . . .or satan possession . . .we're calling it feeding the carnality within us. . . or at least I am anyway.

The thing that got Judas to do what he did was his own greed.  His relationship with Jesus wasn't as important to him as fattening his wallet.  But for me . .personally .  . I also don't believe that Judas hated Jesus or didn't believe him . . .I think that Judas did what everyone else did . .they took Jesus words literally.  Judas really expected Jesus to "be" the physical king of Israel . . .and selling him to the Pharisees would then force Jesus hand to reveal to the world that he was the next king. 

When it became obvious to Judas that Jesus was not going to survive the cross . . .he couldn't handle the guilt of what he'd done and never did understand that everything Jesus did and said was for a spiritual fulfillment and benefit and not a literal physical one.

At any rate . . . saying that Judas could be fed, led, washed, and still in the presence of Jesus when he become possessed by the devil . .literally . . .is really no different in saying that "in" me there is spirit and carnality . .there is Godliness .  .and ungodliness.  Which ever one I feed, is the one that consumes me.

Nathan, dang it!!! Quit doing that! That, to me, was the best post, the best meal I've eaten in a while. Thanks Pal. I'm off to read it again.

cp

I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: peacemaker on February 08, 2009, 03:18:56 AM

Quote from: Tony N on February 06, 2009, 11:43:03 PM

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was possessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

Not at all, Tony, you are entitled to your own thoughts, or those of another.
And, no "Jesus was not possessed" with the thoughts of others, unlike Judas.

But thanks for asking!

peacemaker

[/quote]

peacemaker,
I guess I have to say this disclaimer for every time I post now. I'm not trying to start a fight of bushwack anyone.
You stated this:

QuoteSo, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."

I thought I would bold and underline your words above to bring attention to them.
So if Satan was in Jesus (where he has always been, according to your statement above) when He was tempted, (he had to be in Jesus for Jesus to be tempted, [according to you] right?) then Jesus had sin in His body and therefore Jesus was not, as He said "without sin." He would not be the spotless lamb. Jesus neither had sin, nor Satan, nor death operating in His body.

Satan is not in the heart of everyone. He is not in my heart. He is not in my mind.

The Bible says by way of implication that Satan was outside of Judas. He was outside of Judas his whole life. It was not until God wanted to make absolutely sure that Judas would give up Jesus that He had Satan enter Judas to get the job done.

(Luk 22:3)  Yet Satan entered into Judas, called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."

(Joh 13:27)  And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

Disclaimer:
The above are just my thoughts. They are not meant to inflame or cause a fight or try to make anyone look bad. I'm not upset. I don't think anything less of those I converse with. I don't think I know it all.  :boyheart:

Quote from: peacemaker on February 08, 2009, 05:23:12 AM
I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

PM, Good stuff, I mean it.

Tony, you are thinking some of us are teaching and believing that Jesus and all of us are satan possessed beings. You have helped me clarify what is being said in Scripture.

I think you are right and wrong, as I am most of the time! Satan was outside of Judas as he is of everyone in the sense that when he is not obeyed he has not entered. Satan can only possess as you are seeing possessed when a being obeys 'him'. I have had many ideas or thoughts within me that I have shunned. I would consider these thoughts of my brain and mind as outside of me in a sense while those thoughts, both good and bad, that I have obeyed, I would say have entered into my being.

Do you understand this, Tony? Could this be a way to view the entering in of satan into a person?

There is no way on Gods green earth that when Jesus said that a mans enemies are those of his own household (mt10.36), that Jesus was not indicating that a mans enemies or adversary (satan) are within each person. What is more in man than mans mind? Especially when you really see what Scripture is saying in what Peacemaker brought up....

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man....mt15.19

Hey Tony, I posted something a while back and did not see a response, of which I understand as I know you have a lot going on, but I will ask again if you don't mind. Here it is.....

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone will open the door and let me in.........Rev3.20

This is occuring within people. The standing and knocking are being done within yet the opening of the door is the key to entering or not.

Kapeesh?

cp

I remember as a kid hearing about a book called Pigs in the Parlour. The book was saying how most people are demon possessed, and sure enough, those who bought into the book began manifesting demons. Then their was this whole debate on wheather a Christian could be demon-possessed. Some said that Christians where opressed, and non-Christians were posessed. But when you think about it, what does it matter if satan is in control?

It is in the mind that the advesary attacks through thoughts. I believe this was how Jesus, Judas, and Peter was tempted. Peter was called satan because he spoke the things of man and not of God. Do you think it could be said that satan entered Judas because he changed his mind into betraying Jesus? Jesus did not sin because He did not align His will with the thoughts of the enemy. I don't concern myself with wheather the voices that tempt me come from within my own mind, or enter my mind from an outside source. I don't see how it matters, we still have an enemy.

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 04:27:53 PM

Quote from: peacemaker on February 08, 2009, 05:23:12 AM
I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

PM, Good stuff, I mean it.

Tony, you are thinking some of us are teaching and believing that Jesus and all of us are satan possessed beings. You have helped me clarify what is being said in Scripture.

I think you are right and wrong, as I am most of the time! Satan was outside of Judas as he is of everyone in the sense that when he is not obeyed he has not entered. Satan can only possess as you are seeing possessed when a being obeys 'him'. I have had many ideas or thoughts within me that I have shunned. I would consider these thoughts of my brain and mind as outside of me in a sense while those thoughts, both good and bad, that I have obeyed, I would say have entered into my being.

Do you understand this, Tony? Could this be a way to view the entering in of satan into a person?

There is no way on Gods green earth that when Jesus said that a mans enemies are those of his own household (mt10.36), that Jesus was not indicating that a mans enemies or adversary (satan) are within each person. What is more in man than mans mind? Especially when you really see what Scripture is saying in what Peacemaker brought up....

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man....mt15.19

Dear claypot, I think I you need to rename yourself "goldenchalice" because you have lots of good things to pour out from your cup. O.K. enough butt kissing.  :laughing7:

The above verse of Matthew 15:19 is both literal and figurative. It is figurative in that people's hearts really, literally pump blood. So those things can't literally, physically find their origin in the kardia or blood pumping heart of a person. However, the heart is what keeps a person going. Stop the heart and the man dies. So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan. It just is what it is. "The flesh is enmity to God and indeed is not able to please God." (see Romans 8:7,8). This enmity is not attributed to Satan but to the flesh.

QuoteHey Tony, I posted something a while back and did not see a response, of which I understand as I know you have a lot going on, but I will ask again if you don't mind. Here it is.....

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

[/quote]

Well of course there are things spoken of in the Bible that can be taken as both literal and figurative.
A literal group of believers can both literally be the ecclesia of God and figuratively the temple of God.
Peter, James and John were pillars, figuratively, yet literally they were *supports* in their respective group of believers. They were not literally made of stone as pillars are.

Christ died for all. That is literal. He did not figuratively die but literally died. Now the spiritual aspect of that is when Christ died, Paul stated that "all died" (2 Cor.5:14). In other words, when Christ died, all mankind were included in that death. Of course all mankind could not literally fit in Jesus' body as He hung on the cross.

When Jesus sits on the throne in the future, He literally will sit on that throne. Yet a sword will come out of His mouth. Now I really doubt Jesus was a sword swallower. And I really doubt a literal sword will come out of His mouth. Yet the sword figuratively stands for the words which will come forth from His mouth which will bring adversative judgment to those it is meant for.

Does that answer your question?

Disclaimer:
The above are just my thoughts. They are not meant to inflame or cause a fight or try to make anyone look bad. I'm not upset. I don't think anything less of those I converse with. I don't think I know it all.

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 04:36:14 PM
Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone will open the door and let me in.........Rev3.20

This is occuring within people. The standing and knocking are being done within yet the opening of the door is the key to entering or not.

Kapeesh?

cp

Dear cp,
Gosh, I sure hope you don't think I am picking on you or anything. So rather than stating the obvious I will state this, [bracketed words are mine]:

"Lo! I stand at the door [of the ecclesia in Laodicea] and am knocking. If ever any thould be hearing the sound (voice) of Me and should be opening the door, I shall be coming into [the ecclesia in Laodicea] toward him and I shall be dining with him and he with Me."

The phrase in Greek: "I shall be coming into toward him" is not in everyone's translation. People often get "I shall be coming into him" but that is far from the truth. The spirit of Christ is already within the one who would open the door to Jesus' voice. Since they both have the same spirit they both will fellowship with eachother.

This verse is so often missappropriated in evangelical services that it makes me want to puke. They state this verse that if you just ask Jesus to come into your heart He will because the bible states that He stands at the door (of your heart) and will come into your heart if you ask Him, as if that is what that verse is actually saying.

Tony, you wrote....

So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan.

I'm thinking that is exactly what Jesus is saying. Evil thoughts are adversarial (satan) to all that is of God and if these evil thoughts are acted upon then satan has entered in.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? jere17.9

Tony, are you thinking that Jesus was referring to a physical heart when He spoke of such things?

Sarah brought up Jesus calling Peter Satan. How do you think Peter was literally satan in Jesus' eyes?

Sarah, you wrote....

I don't concern myself with wheather the voices that tempt me come from within my own mind, or enter my mind from an outside source. I don't see how it matters, we still have an enemy.

The reason it matters to me is that I think the Bible is a living book for all people at all times, not for some people some of the time or for all people some of the time and so on. If the enemy is an individual entity that affects this person and not that person then I don't see all men as being talked about all the time in Scripture.

Sarah, I see all people like a drop of water from the ocean or an acorn. In a drop of water out of the ocean the whole ocean is present as in a single acorn I believe every oak tree that ever was and ever will be is in that one acorn. All the good and bad that make the oak trees what they are, are in the single acorn. It is what is nourished and strengthened that determines whether the oak tree lives or dies.

Let me add something here to everyone. You may have noticed I use the phrase physical literal or spiritual literal. I do this because I don't think we should take for granted that literal only applies to the physical which it seems almost all do. Literal means...

according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo> c: free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth> d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>

I think the spiritual is ordinary construction in Gods world or in His home turf. Interpreting Scripture in the spiritual is totally free from exaggeration IMO and is concerned mainly and only with facts. Seeing all that Jesus and the Spirit dictated through Scripture, IMO, is the primary meaning of Scripture.

I say all this to say that when the word literal is used I see it will mean something different depending on where 'your heart lives'. If your heart and mind are in the spiritual realm then literal is that realm.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 07:41:08 PM
Tony, you wrote....

So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan.

QuoteI'm thinking that is exactly what Jesus is saying. Evil thoughts are adversarial (satan) to all that is of God and if these evil thoughts are acted upon then satan has entered in.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? jere17.9

Tony, are you thinking that Jesus was referring to a physical heart when He spoke of such things?

Just because the heart is deceitful and wicked does not mean Satan dwells within the human or his flesh or his heart.

I already wrote that he was not referring to a physical heart.

In the book of Job,Satan is portrayed as a being who is walking about the earth then going before God and reporting to him. He is also sent to persecute Job and report back to God. Hardly something called "flesh" could do that.

Quote
Sarah brought up Jesus calling Peter Satan. How do you think Peter was literally satan in Jesus' eyes?

In the Scriptures there is an adversary used as an adjective and THE ADVERSARY uses as a noun. And there is adversary with a lower case 'a' used as a noun. But it does not mean the lower case adversary is THE Adversary.

Mat 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, for you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."

Notice the lower case "satan"? In Hebrew this means he was an adversary, not necessarily THE Adversary. That means that Peter was not the spirit called Satan.

How could Satan always have been in Judas if he was not in Judas before he went into Judas?

Tony, you asked....

How could Satan always have been in Judas if he was not in Judas before he went into Judas?

I explained this is great detail already. I only know myself and I really don't know this that well either but here goes. I do not see myself as Satan possessed yet I am influenced by him. Until I give in to him in my mind to the point where I act out in my flesh that which he dictates, I don't think he has even 'entered' me yet when I give in to him then I would say that Satan has entered me.

You wrote.....

Just because the heart is deceitful and wicked does not mean Satan dwells within the human or his flesh or his heart.

Maybe I'm too naive but manifestations that are deceitful and wicked seem to be children of the wicked one and the wicked one to me is Satan. Just my way of thinking.

You wrote.....

Notice the lower case "satan"? In Hebrew this means he was an adversary, not necessarily THE Adversary. That means that Peter was not the spirit called Satan.

I totally agree and never said that Peter was the spirit called Satan. I think there was an adversarial thought process operating in Peter and Jesus called it what it was.

Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 09:47:29 PM
Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

Satan was a lier and a murder from the beginning.

He was created.

He was created to be the Adversary.

He is a spirit being and is invisible.

Quote from: Tony N on February 08, 2009, 10:49:39 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 09:47:29 PM
Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

Satan was a lier and a murder from the beginning.

He was created.

He was created to be the Adversary.

He is a spirit being and is invisible.

Amen Brother.

I see too that God made people (Adam) a bit marred (liar and murderous?) from the beginning. Coincidence? Hmmmmmmm. Tony, you do make me think!

Hmmmmmm. You think God made us to be adversarial? It would be a good learning and growth technique, I'm thinking.

I know whatever causes me to sin is adversarial and invisible and very powerful.

cp

I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2009, 11:13:31 PM
I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

I also see this idea of satan "entering" much like what happened in the garden.  Thoughts bombard us regardless if we're in a funeral or a wedding . .a church or a bar . . . they're always on the move . .seeking whom they may devour so to speak . . .the more you feed into those thoughts, the more they consume you. 

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit . . someone has a thread . .I believe it's on this forum . .not sure . . .but it's dealing with the fact that the seed is in the fruit . . .it was fruit that Adam and Eve ate . .the seed that was in that fruit was carnality . .at least that's how I see it . . .The thing is . .nothing happened when Eve ate it.  It wasn't until Adam ate that all hell broke loose.

This speaks volumes to me in that if Eve is my mind . . .and she ate the fruit . . .nothing happens . . .that the thoughts in my mind have no power over me.  It's not until I willingly act on them . . .which is then saying my spirit is "letting" my mind take the lead . .which is never a good thing . . .and once "that" happens, then is when things go awry.  So the thought "entered" Judas . . .the anti-Jesus-remaining-free thought entered into Judas . .and he acted on it . . .

The thoughts themselves are not what defile you . . .it's how you handle them that makes all the difference in the world.

Philippians 4
7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 11:22:51 PM

Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2009, 11:13:31 PM
I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

well it's more of a waking meditation, since I've become sensitive to it.  So I watch more carefully.

We all have the ability to devastate another with our words.  There are some who use that ability like a club.  They like the power of it.  The more quick witted are very good at it, and often display their talent.  It's a kind of sparring for superiority.  I long ago noticed that this is easy for me to do.  I can flatten someone with a word, and make them laugh while they are bleeding.  But I would only use it in self defense.

Then I realized that silence was an option.  I no longer had to defend myself.  Once I choose silence, I could watch.

Once I started watching, I could see the spirit behind the act, almost like a cloud appearing in a clear sky.  Someone starts getting challenged by their own thoughts of inferiority, a perceived slight, or whatever, --and the cloud appears and they lash out.

This causes a spirit to enter into me to which I could respond.  Kind of like the school kids yelling, 'fight, fight, fight.'   But I don't open my mouth--I just watch it inside myself.  I deal with it in me.  I deal with the other with silence.  That puts it back on their own head.  Jesus never told those around him all he knew, and he never fought with them.  Like Nathan says, that feeds the wrong spirit.

I am trying to be more deliberate in my perceptions and actions.  I have nothing to defend anymore.




He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

--Acts 8:32

willieH: YO!  :afFro:

The Hebrew term "satan" means adversary/adversity... this is NOT a PERSON...

Matt 16:23  ...But He turned and said UNTO PETER:  Get thee behind me SATAN: thou art an offense unto me; for thou savorest NOT the things that be of GOD, but those that be of MEN...

Before Peter spoke ADVERSELY concerning the mission of CHRIST, he was PETER...

ONLY when he spoke on behalf of that which was CONTRARY/ADVERSE to CHRIST's mission, and ONLY THEN, ...was he addressed as "satan"... 

Was Peter "satan"?  CHRIST addressed him as "satan" did He not?  NO... what Peter SAID, was "satan" (adversity)

CHRIST moments before, ...had JUST NOTED that upon Peter's ministry would he establish His church, and that Peter was BLESSED! -- Matt 16:17-18

Would he be doing so (building His Church) on "satan"?  Did CHRIST just have a quick "change of heart"? ...Of course not...  What blurted out of Peter's mouth was ADVERSITY... He hadn't instantly turned from being BLESSED, to being the "DEVIL"!

Same thing with Judas... ADVERSITY entered into Judas' thinking processes which were NECESSARY for the Mission's success, ...he was not "possessed" by a "being" called satan...  He was in fact, a pivotal part of the accomplishment of SALVATION!  He was ORDERED by CHRIST to do so -- John 13:27

Judas didn't just "sneak out"... He was TOLD to DO as he did...

To me, this is a TRADITIONAL deception which to a degree allieviates US from blame via self-deception...

In the Garden, ...the NATURAL ADVERSITY within themselves is what made them decide to EAT... not some "talking snake".

The SERPENT is the NATURE within man to DISOBEY...

When evaluating what took place in the Garden:

Eve was recalling to herself that which GOD had said, which to begin with, was INCORRECT!!  ...she began by LYING to herself... for GOD said nothing concerning "not touching the fruit" only "not eating it" (Gen 2:17 -- Gen 3:2-3)

From her first self deception, Eve then deduced that she wouldn't die, but that she would gain KNOWLEDGE...

Sin is produced by the LUST of the FLESH in EVERY MAN [including Eve] (James 1:14), not by the persuasion of a mythical being called traditionally by RELIGION, ..."satan".

Is this not how sin works?  We in our sheepish and stupid ("brutish" - Jer 10:14) minds deduce on this level... "hey, to what degree shall Safeway be harmed, by me taking this ONE, CHEAP LITTLE candy bar?"  :rolleye:

Eve in Gen 3:6 (no "devil talking"):

(1) observes that the fruit looks good for food (lust of the flesh)...
(2) pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes)
(3) and a tree to be desired to make wise -- and ATE! (pride of life - enacted by DISBELIEVING the COMMAND of YHVH)

(see -- 1 John 2:16)

The deciding factor was PRIDE of LIFE, found in her disbelief of GOD's statement that she would DIE if she ate... no "devil" was necessary...

Only the PRIDEFUL self-deception from within her own NATURAL mind and fleshly desire was necessary, which in fact is INDICATED...

PRIDE

Prov 11:2  ...PRIDE cometh, ...THEN, ...SHAME...
Prov 13:10 ...ONLY by PRIDE, COMETH ...CONTENTION...
Prov 16:18 ...PRIDE goeth BEFORE ...DESTRUCTION...


Peace...  :cloud9:



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Quote from: Molly on February 09, 2009, 12:24:46 AM

Quote from: claypot on February 08, 2009, 11:22:51 PM

Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2009, 11:13:31 PM
I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

well it's more of a waking meditation, since I've become sensitive to it.  So I watch more carefully.

We all have the ability to devastate another with our words.  There are some who use that ability like a club.  They like the power of it.  The more quick witted are very good at it, and often display their talent.  It's a kind of sparring for superiority.  I long ago noticed that this is easy for me to do.  I can flatten someone with a word, and make them laugh while they are bleeding.  But I would only use it in self defense.

Then I realized that silence was an option.  I no longer had to defend myself.  Once I choose silence, I could watch.

Once I started watching, I could see the spirit behind the act, almost like a cloud appearing in a clear sky.  Someone starts getting challenged by their own thoughts of inferiority, a perceived slight, or whatever, --and the cloud appears and they lash out.

This causes a spirit to enter into me to which I could respond.  Kind of like the school kids yelling, 'fight, fight, fight.'   But I don't open my mouth--I just watch it inside myself.  I deal with it in me.  I deal with the other with silence.  That puts it back on their own head.  Jesus never told those around him all he knew, and he never fought with them.  Like Nathan says, that feeds the wrong spirit.

I am trying to be more deliberate in my perceptions and actions.  I have nothing to defend anymore.




He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

--Acts 8:32

but what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

Quotebut what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

The book of Job does treat satan as an independent being.



6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan  also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

      Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?

--Job 1


When God gives satan permission to come against Job, he loses everything.  But we see that satan is talking to God himself, accusing man, and asking to test him.  But, he can't touch Job without God's permission.




12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
      Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

QuoteIf the enemy is an individual entity that affects this person and not that person then I don't see all men as being talked about all the time in Scripture.

I did not say that this 'entity' affects only certain people, of course I believe we are all subject to it. My point was that we are all hung up on where the 'adversarial voice' comes from, an entity roaming about whispering in our minds, or a voice that is imbedded in each us already whispering to our minds. The fact is that it affects us all.

I personally think it is both, but, IMO when  Satan is addressed, it is not referring to a king-like entity ruling over demons, rather Satan is the personification of an adversarial spirit, which is more like a virus.

Someone made a point concerning a capital 'S'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think the hebrew and greek had capital letters.

Quote from: Molly on February 08, 2009, 11:13:31 PM
Judas was no choir boy. 

It is quite possible Judas sang in a choir. God has revealed to me that he was part of an ancient barber shop quartet and that this choir sang on the corners of streets in Jerusalem trying to raise money for the poor. He did this because people kept dumping their precious perfumes on his Master's feet. So he figured if he couldn't get Jesus to quit being so wasteful he could try to embarrass Him into stopping this waste.

Judas especially liked singing Old Lang Syne (in Hebrew of course).
He also liked singing "I'm Hung Up Over You."
And 30 Pieces of Silver on the wall was a fav.

Quote from: Tony N on February 08, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

It is obvious that you have adapted to the preconceived idea of a literal Satan, which is supported by a doctrine that you already hold to be true. But what sense is there in asking "If you are the son of God" if this entity is who you claim it to be? This challenge to prove He is the Son of God makes no sense coming from an entity, especially if an "entity" (demons, etc.) trembles in his presence – knowing who Christ is!

So, why is this tempter asking for proof?

Of course, man, himself, would have no idea because at that time they had not been given the Spirit, thus, prove if you are the son of God would be more apparent coming from them, and I doubt that Christ would have given in to some kind of "I dare you to prove it" within three temptations which derive from the ignorance of man's thoughts:

"Command that these stones become bread, cast yourself down on these stones, and give allegiance to me."

Consider this:

"... But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." (Mathew 26:63)

In addition, the temptations could easily have come from within Christ, himself –  "Not your will, but mine be done." And would have been persistent for forty days in the wilderness, given the fact that He was to be tested.

Personally, I see both; an intrinsic temptation invisible to others and an external tempter given the nature of man who having an outward appearance was visible by others (the writers). Although leaving it to you to ponder, perhaps, it was a frivolous, empty-headed, evil-hearted, high priest who commands under an oath of false pretenses who wanted to know if "Thou be the Son of God?"

Furthermore, if these temptations did not appeal to the heart of Christ as being consistent with that of every man, then there would have been no real temptation, nor the desire to overcome – "Not my will, but yours be done."

The temptations were imposed on the natural, as He was famished, subjected to the threat of death, and to the thoughts of taking possession of the promise; ruling over the Kingdoms of the world before the declared time of the Father.

Christ was given the power without measure to elevate himself. He could have called on twelve legions to deliver himself from the cross. But to do so would have resulted in his rejection of the Fathers Will, coveting that of his own. In my humble opinion – and without going into a full discourse on legions of demons, devils and Satan.

Is it just a mere coincidence that the disciples were looking for a physical rule and reign of Christ, as many do today?

peacemaker

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

I like that, it makes me think and what I think of is this. One day I entered into our family car and I was extremely preoccupied in thought. As I sat in the passenger seat my wife said to me "Where are you, you seem off in another world." I was but I came back from 'where' I was and felt as if I just entered the family car for the first time. 2 'enterings' as it were. One physical, one mental.

Could it be like Satan is in mans outer court and, if allowed by God and the person, he enters the holy places? There is the outer court Judas and the inner court Judas so to speak. Yes this would take spiritual eyes to see and understand but in my mind it is clear as cloudless sunny day. This makes sense to me because it is like Satan as a roaring lion going to and fro in the earth (the outer court of my being) seeking who he may devour (seeking how to get into the inner court).

cp

Quote from: peacemaker on February 09, 2009, 02:57:12 AM

Quote from: Tony N on February 08, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

QuoteIt is obvious that you have adapted to the preconceived idea of a literal Satan, which is supported by a doctrine that you already hold to be true.

Well, maybe it is a preconceived idea supported by the Scriptural reality of a literal Satan.

QuoteBut what sense is there in asking "If you are the son of God" if this entity is who you claim it to be? This challenge to prove He is the Son of God makes no sense coming from an entity, especially if an "entity" (demons, etc.) trembles in his presence – knowing who Christ is!

So, why is this tempter asking for proof?

That is Satan's modus operandi, to ask questions, to instill doubt as he did in the garden with Eve. It makes perfect sense to me.

QuoteOf course, man, himself, would have no idea because at that time they had not been given the Spirit, thus, prove if you are the son of God would be more apparent coming from them, and I doubt that Christ would have given in to some kind of "I dare you to prove it" within three temptations which derive from the ignorance of man's thoughts:

Satan wasn't given the Spirit either.

Quote"Command that these stones become bread, cast yourself down on these stones, and give allegiance to me."

Satan was trying to give Jesus a short cut to world domination via Satan's way rather than God's way.


Consider this:

"... But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." (Mathew 26:63)

QuoteIn addition, the temptations could easily have come from within Christ, himself –  "Not your will, but mine be done." And would have been persistent for forty days in the wilderness, given the fact that He was to be tested.

It doesn't say He tested or tried Himself but was tried by the Adversary.

QuotePersonally, I see both; an intrinsic temptation invisible to others and an external tempter given the nature of man who having an outward appearance was visible by others (the writers). Although leaving it to you to ponder, perhaps, it was a frivolous, empty-headed, evil-hearted, high priest who commands under an oath of false pretenses who wanted to know if "Thou be the Son of God?"

Furthermore, if these temptations did not appeal to the heart of Christ as being consistent with that of every man, then there would have been no real temptation, nor the desire to overcome – "Not my will, but yours be done."

The Adversary tried Him. He had to be tried to prove that He is the spotless lamb and not subject to sin. If anything it was to prove to mankind that He is sinless.

QuoteThe temptations were imposed on the natural, as He was famished, subjected to the threat of death, and to the thoughts of taking possession of the promise; ruling over the Kingdoms of the world before the declared time of the Father.

Christ was given the power without measure to elevate himself. He could have called on twelve legions to deliver himself from the cross. But to do so would have resulted in his rejection of the Fathers Will, coveting that of his own. In my humble opinion – and without going into a full discourse on legions of demons, devils and Satan.

Yes? He didn't thus proving it is better to do it God's way rather than Satan's. Rather than take a shortcut He did it God's way. He showed He was sinless.


]quote]Is it just a mere coincidence that the disciples were looking for a physical rule and reign of Christ, as many do today?
peacemaker
[/quote]

Is it just a mere coincidence that Jesus is looking for a physical rule and reign as the discipled did?

In Job's day did a thought present itself to God concerning Job and since this sinful thought came to God can we therefore assume that God had Satan in His heart? Good Lord! Say it isn't so!

Tony

There is no doubt that Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, yet, "He overcame, and sinned not." Temptation does not make one sinful. And, sometimes, like Job, we are brought before king's (the ruler) and magistrates (a judge) by an accuser (devil) for a testimony.

"Godliness isn't about separating from sinful people; it's about dissociating from the sinful passions within our own hearts." :HeartThrob:

peacemaker

What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

Both.

This separating of our being from the physical is an commonly attempted methodology of people desiring to be "spiritual."  Suicide would be the most direct measure to assure this mis-guided goal.  A human is spirit, soul and body.  Jesus was manifested to bring about a complete salvation of our entire being.

It was the influx of professional "Word-smiths" taking Roman coins to support themselves as "Christian Priests" that corrupted Christian philosophy unto this day.  They were trained in Greko-Roman rhetoric, the art of using words.  Among other things, these orators who wore special robes would mount towers from whence to be better seen and heard.  They would take their well worn copies of Plato, turn to a well-marked passage and read.  Then they would expound on what they had read.  They would have a rhetorical structure to what they had to say.  The same structure is taught in seminaries today to preachers wanting to know how to make a sermon.  After the Diocletian persecution, in which any Christian considered a leader was murdered and all copies of Scripture were burned, Constantine normalized his paganized version of Christianity, making it an official religion of the Roman Empire along with other religions.  They adapted pagan temples for Christians to use.  They paid a priesthood.  The Christians had never had temples or priests.  We entered into God as habitation, our temple and we ourselves, members of one another, were and are the temple of God.  We are all of us Priests.  That is God's idea of what kind of man He would make in His image to have dominion over the works of His hands.  With this change came changes in doctrine.  The new "priests" brought Greek mysticism with them.

My body is not just a wrapper for the real me.  It is one aspect of the real me.  In my physical aspect I carry the glory of God into manifestation into this cosmos in various ways, like manipulating physical reality or giving voice to thoughts.  I glow in the dark.  I expect to come to a change by which my body no longer is a dying body.  It will become more and more a vehicle for displaying God in the physical realm.  Because I am now existing as a spirit, soul and, particularly, a body (even though it is a dying body,) I am considered to be among the living.

An early form of the so-called Apostle's Creed has us believing in "the resurrection of the flesh."  This is not like a cheap movie's re-animation of a corpse.  The realm of embodiment is one thing.  I do not bring food and water out of nothing.  They are outside of me.  The system of supply meeting the desires of every living thing is a demonstration of the "mercy" (lit.Hb., chesed) of God.  Things are apportioned to me as I need them in form that I can use to sustain this body's life.  Similarly, God's Word is broken into pieces that I can ingest and assimilate.  The food and water I use passes through me back into the world.  This ecological portrait of our embodiment realm could be much extended; but, it introduces the unmistakable realization that all that is physical is inherent in what our embodiment means.  It is "one" as similarly spirit is one.

Even with this shortened lifespan the human body is said to be replaced as many as thirteen times in an individual's life.  The molecules I was born with have been replaced numerous times.  I'm on my sixth or seventh brain and midway to my tenth body.  This makes clear that God doesn't need to recreate a resurrection body from its corpse, the molecules of which could be scattered into not only the four corners of the earth (yes, there are four corners,) but into at least the galaxy as well.  The resurrected flesh is a way that such a being can manifest.  The options for what forms in the physical the resurrected may occur are myriad.  Jesus resurrected blood cells accomplish miracles of healings today.  They emerge out of higher realms.  God has many gifts to give His holy ones.

your brother, James Rohde

willieH: Hi there Ice... :hithere:

Quote from: IceDash on February 09, 2009, 12:59:41 AM
but what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

All this is, is GOD considering before us, the facets of ADVERSITY, and condescending in order that we may understand that He allows it to be such in our experience... more than a direct conversation with a being...

When the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

WHAT [imo] DOES NOT MAKE SENSE:

Why would GOD even bother to put us through this process, by creating an EVIL BEING far more powerful than we, which we are unable to see, hear or even percieve as present?   :mshock:

"satan" as a POWERFUL EVIL BEING, is an unfair and ILLOGICAL proposition in my mind... Make me do a battle which I CANNOT win, ...with an ADVERSARY that is OMNIPRESENT and which FAR exceeds me in power and which I am unable to even percieve with my senses OR even my heart that "it" is present to do battle with me!

If Eve in the Garden was subjected to this being and actually CONVERSED with it, why was this not the case with Adam as well? :dunno:

With the exceptions of the convo's with GOD and the "temptation" of CHRIST, ...Why do we ALL not have convo's with this guy?  Was EVE the only [eventual] SINNER to have had a clear and visible, "one on one" with "satan"?  :rolleye:  And why was the "serpent" not called "satan" in this conversation?

Why was PETER clearly called "satan"?  :dontknow:  There is no indication that "satan" had "entered" him... was he just plain "satan" and not actually Peter?  Is "satan" the foundational element of the early church? :rolleye:

When CHRIST had just moments before calling Peter "satan", had named him as the foundational element upon which he would build the Church?  :mshock:

And Judas is well able to justifiably BLAME "satan" and GOD as well, for being "set up" for the personal infestation of a being with whom he (Judas) was EXCEEDINGLY LESS in power as a man, ...to defer or reject!  ("satan" entered him without his consent! Why did "satan" ENTER Judas?  -- did "satan" ...enter... EVE?)  :dontknow:

In the Judgment, ...Judas could surely stand up and complain of "satan" actually entering him WITHOUT his consent!  And if this JUST arguement could have been made by JUDAS and was honored, where would the SALVATION of GOD stand today?  :mshock:  Where would that place us? ...LOST!

No, there is more, MUCH MORE, to this than some created "DEVIL" being the pivitol player in the realization of our SALVATION.   GOD uses His SONS in different capacities within the realization of HIS SALVATION.   Utilizing FIRST, His ONLY Begotten as the PERFECT  sacrifice... but using OTHERS to write Scripture witnessing of it, and to spread and preach this fact to ALL MEN...   Even using JUDAS (without his consent), who we are so quick to blame for his "betrayal", ...but readily welcome that "awful betrayal",  knowing that otherwise we would be YET without an escape from SIN and DEATH!  ...  :dontknow:

WHAT [imo] DOES MAKE SENSE:

What makes much more sense, at least to me... is that WE, are created as we are (NATURALLY ADVERSE to GOD) in order to realize the PURPOSE of GOD, which is to reveal to His Children, the Knowledge (difference between) Good AND Evil...  Rather than setting us up to battle a "being" that far exceeds our ability to cope with...

The belief that "satan" is a being, (IMO) is as mythical as "santa claus"... Within this subliminally lies the belief that this "person" has the same OMNIPRESENCE as GOD ("satan" everywhere, tempting everyone, etc)...  Sorry, but I shall not give place to that... I once did, and God has shown me different... You are welcome to embrace this as you do Ice, ...as is anyone else... and it is not my agenda to convince you otherwise...

You ask, and I give you my viewpoint, no acceptance or rejection is expected by me of that viewpoint.  :cloud9:

To me, FAITH is the gift that GOD gives us in dealing with the circumstances that GOD presents by using His WORD, regardless of whether "satan" is a being, or "satan" is the nature of man, IT is created as the vehicle with which we become AS is our Father... that being, ...to have the KNOWLEDGE of Good AND Evil...

And irregardless of our perception of "satan", ...via the study of God's WORD and prayer, we must come to the conclusion that "satan" is not to blame one way or the other, ...it was INTENDED that we KNOW and PARTICIPATE in ADVERSITY, that we might by comparison KNOW Who, What, and How, our GOD... IS...

What I see is mankind (especially the followers of CHRIST) as giving immense power and glory and to a non-existent being, and thereby adding one more element of ADVERSITY to our NATURE, instead of beholding that it is WE which bring ADVERSITY forth, and no "talking snake" or "invented horrific EVIL being named satan" is necessary in order for that manifestation to take place...

As I fall upon my knees, I whisper tearfully in my heart to my Father: 

"there is no 'DEVIL' that made ME do anything Lord"...  I did it Father... and so I confess MY SIN before YOU... and cast no blame upon anyone but MYSELF, ...asking YOU forgive ME for MY SINS... which I COMMITTED"

Now THAT (IMHO) is how we should CONFESS our SIN, ...anyone else is welcome to do otherwise (indirectly blame "satan") if they so choose...  :dontknow:

Peace...  :cloud9:



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Willie wrote:

QuoteWhen the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

The sons of the Elohim were not in Job anymore than Satan was in Job.

Willie, what if the sons of the Elohim didn't have flesh? What if they were spiritual beings?

Job 1:6-9  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.  (8)  So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.  (9)  Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, Does Job fear Elohim gratuitously?

Job was not present when the sons of Elohim stationed themeselves before Yahweh.

And I seriously doubt that Job's flesh would cause the Sabeans to come against him and take all he had and doubt that Job's flesh, the (according to you) Satan in his flesh caused fire of God to come out of the sky and destroy his things etc. etc. etc.

The way I read it the meeting with God was in heaven.
Jesus said He was the first one that ever ascended to heaven.
Therefore Job could not be present in heaven during the meeting with God.
Anyone present at that meeting is a spiritual being.

Reformer wrote......

My body is not just a wrapper for the real me.  It is one aspect of the real me.

I too do not play down the physical element of who we are. Its just that in American Christianity the spiritual seems to be played down quite a bit so my focus on the spiritual is my way of counteracting that.

The accusations in this thread sometimes IMO is like if someone asks you everyday if you like chocolate candy bars and then asks you why and then later walks away thinking that all you do is think about chocolate candy bars because that's all you talk about!!!

Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.

I still believe and see that the whole of Scripture is an explanation of God making man in His image. It is the blueprint. I see the physical, soulish and spiritual aspects of the whole invention and it is glorious.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 09, 2009, 03:42:13 PM
Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.
cp

Dear cp,
So you believe Adam was a human being? And do you believe Eve was a separate human being who was Adam's wife?

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHWhen the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 02:17:58 PMThe sons of the Elohim were not in Job anymore than Satan was in Job.

As I said to Ice, Tony... it is just a matter of perspective... You hold that "satan" is a being, and therefore your perspective is that "satan" is a SENTIENT entity with an agenda... I see "satan" as it is... a principality within the makeup of ALL men born in Adam...

Furthermore, let us define that "Elohim" is YHVH within this context... for in verse 7 YHVH is indicated.  :dontknow:

I did not say that "the sons of Elohim were IN Job"... I said that the principality of ADVERSITY ("satan") is in ALL the SONS of YHVH and is PRESENT whenever and wherever they are PRESENT...

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 02:17:58 PMWillie, what if the sons of the Elohim didn't have flesh? What if they were spiritual beings?

First, there are no such thing as "What if's", brother T... There only IS ...what IS...

Second, the "sons of ELOHIM" ...DO... have flesh Tony... you my friend, are a LIVING example!  :idea2:

And besides, "what if's" are not the point bro...  If you read the context... an HEDGE was about JOB... which "hedge" is GOD... that "satan" (adversity) could not affect...  Adversity is a matter of THE FLESH brother... and IT affects the Spirit... for IT ENCLOSES and imprisons the SPIRIT of man, and separates the spirit from GOD... until FREEDOM is created (the TRUTH shall MAKE you free), from within, via the REVELATION of CHRIST in each of us, in DUE TIME...

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 02:17:58 PMJob 1:6-9  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.  (8)  So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.  (9)  Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, Does Job fear Elohim gratuitously?

Job was not present when the sons of Elohim stationed themeselves before Yahweh.

So you assume brother T... If JOB is a SON of GOD (which he IS), then he came before YHVH... You and I also are in this presence Tony. 

You are viewing this (the SONS of GOD "presenting themselves") as an EVENT (or "meeting") (IYO)... which it is NOT (IMO)...  as I see it: it is a statement of FACT, that whenever the SONS of GOD are PRESENT before YHVH... (which we ALWAYS ARE), that ADVERSITY ("satan") is present as well amongst us...

Let me add that the SONS of GOD, (in my observation) never "station themselves" before YHVH... YHVH "stations US" before Himself... For there is NEVER a moment in which we are NOT PRESENT before YHVH, and... that our "presence" is a manifest act of GOD Himself, which is NOT generated by US...

You are welcome to believe otherwise...

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 02:17:58 PMAnd I seriously doubt that Job's flesh would cause the Sabeans to come against him and take all he had and doubt that Job's flesh, the (according to you) Satan in his flesh caused fire of God to come out of the sky and destroy his things etc. etc. etc.

"satan" did not "cause" anything my friend... IT (whether percieved as an entity or principality) cannot MANIPULATE GOD!  That IT shall cause GOD to REACT!   :mshock:

GOD brings Himself by the foundational makeup of His essence, against that which is ADVERSE to Himself.  In other words... ADVERSITY is ADVERSE to GOD... due to Who and Who and What HE IS!

When I was born, or you were born, had we done anything to deserve a destiny as SINNERS?  Is it not the DECREE of GOD that our destiny is outlined to be so, even from BIRTH in INNOCENCE?

What motivates any ROBBER (sabeans) to ROB?  Is it not the ADVERSITY within them?  The DESPARATELY WICKED Heart being at the center of who they ARE? (Jer 17:9)  WHY are our hearts DESPARATELY WICKED Tony?  Is that not a decision which has been made by YHVH? 




The WILL of GOD is in ALL THINGS... to include "satan" in what ever perspective you percieve "satan" to be... otherwise,  IT would NOT EXIST... for ALL THINGS are By Him and ...FOR HIM... and are thereby part of a PROCESS which GOD is making manifest.  He is SOVEREIGNLY PERFECT... which means to me, that NOTHING occurs without His "stamp of approval"... nor without a PURPOSEFUL INTENT which brings about the manifestation of HIS WILL to come to PASS in ALL THINGS...

If you take a moment, and examine all that happened to JOB... it was ALL done by GOD... If you will re-read a few passages such as: 

Job 1:11... this is the proposition that GOD shall be the one that "touches ALL that JOB has"... and that said "touching" would theoretically cause JOB to curse GOD to His face...  :dontknow:  and,

Job 1:16 -- the FIRE of GOD fell from Heaven  Tony, and GOD's "FIRE" nor anything which emerges from Him (which is ALL THINGS) are not PROMPTED by anyone or anything BUT HIMSELF! ...Try,

Job 2:2 -- Tony... "put forth THY HAND now, and TOUCH his bone and his flesh, and he will CURSE THEE to THY FACE"

Don't you see Tony?  That ADVERSITY can only TOUCH us, by the ACT of GOD?  DEATH could not  and DID NOT, come against CHRIST, until YHVH REMOVED Himself... (hedge)...

GOD ...IS... a consuming FIRE bro... and His FIRE falls from Heaven upon us all... What do you think -- War, Aids, Cancer, Heart disease, Hurricanes, Floods, Eartquakes, etc... are?  You think these to be random  meaningless SORROWS?  That just kinda drop THEMSELVES upon men for centuries, immersing them in SUFFERING for NO REASON?  :mshock: ...Please!  There is INTENT within our suffering Tony... and it shall, as it did with the Only Begotten of us... end IN GLORY!  :bgdance:

Sorry, but GOD does NOTHING which can be considered as RANDOM in His Creation... ALL things have within them HIS INTENT... because ALL THINGS are OF Him, BY Him and FOR Him brother Tony... (Col 1:16)

Doubt is a (albeit negative) powerful thing which you are welcome to engage at your choosing, bro... I choose otherwise... the examples we find in Job is a spiritual tale which notes EACH of our experiences...

Every man that adheres to FAITH in CHRIST, is a "JOB" bro...  and shall find ADVERSITY attacking that experience in ALL facets of his/her existence... as it did with JOB...

The restoration which occured for JOB, is a Heavenly one brother... for ALL men LOSE EVERYTHING sooner or later... as did JOB... but the GLORY is found in the RESTORATION, and in the PERSERVERANCE in which we remain throughout those sufferings...

Peace...  :cloud9:



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 08:35:19 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 09, 2009, 03:42:13 PM
Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.
cp

Dear cp,
So you believe Adam was a human being? And do you believe Eve was a separate human being who was Adam's wife?

In my fleshly mind I do yet in my spiritual mind I don't.

As in Adam all die.......

rom5.12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,


Tony you wrote.....

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

I have asked you to explain several things to me from your way of thinking and I could have easily said that your explanations were very confusing too. It is so easy to ask another questions and then pick the answers apart till they look ridiculous. I believe we do this with Jesus, the Word. It is called crucifixion.

Tony you are only seeing one side (your side) of this multifacted creation of God. Do you see that there possibly was a very human man and woman named Adam and Eve who ran around a garden and probably made whoopie and talked with talking snakes and then can you see that Adam and Eve and their story are used to describe something else too, something deeper and more spiritual?

cp

willieH: Hi WW --  :grin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on February 09, 2009, 02:50:41 PM
The way I read it the meeting with God was in heaven.
Jesus said He was the first one that ever ascended to heaven.
Therefore Job could not be present in heaven during the meeting with God.
Anyone present at that meeting is a spiritual being.

:2c:

Where (chapter/vs) is it indicated that "a meeting" took place WW?   :dontknow:

And where (chapter/vs) is it indicated that this took place, ..."in Heaven"?  :dontknow:

The "DAY" that the "sons of God" came before Him is in the "DAY" in which ALL GENERATIONS of man (sons of God) appear before Him (Gen 2:4 / 5:1-2)




:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 09, 2009, 11:34:43 PM
Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

Ron, that is good! I think of Moses lifting the serpent up on a pole to save the people who looked upon it. Sounds strangely familiar doesn't it?

cp

willieH: Hi Tony...  :icon_king:

Don't mean to be confusing... just offering my view... you are welcome to do with it what you will...   :cloud9:

Quote from: Tony N on February 09, 2009, 11:30:58 PM
Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

I certainly mean no offense to you bro, but have you considered that part of the "confusinger" is possibly, ...YOU?  ...for we, if presented with a truth, cling to our tradition ("satan" as a being is not only esteemed by Christians, but the majority of men, not even followers of CHRIST), it effectually renders that TRUTH of NONE EFFECT -- Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13

That GOD removes His TOUCH is the removal of the "HEDGE" which protects for in His TOUCH is Healing as CHRIST demonstrated many times...  CHRIST is the RIGHT HAND of GOD... but there is a LEFT HAND as well...  :dontknow:  For we are made in HIS IMAGE...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I do not deduce that any being called SATAN has infested me with this disease... It is a product of the manifestation of ADVERSITY found during the course of my life, and that which is DESPARATELY WICKED, and ADVERSE by Nature to my Creator... that has brought it about.  Though my SINS are forgiven, does not mean I shall not reap what I sew in this life...  And even though there is no notation of JOB ...DOING... things adverse, does not mean he was without it in his heart at times, but didnt manifest it in action.  For verse ONE says:  There was a ...MAN... in the land of UZ whose name was JOB...

ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, JOB included...

What is that which "eschews evil" in us Tony?  Is it not GOD, in us?  Do WE, of OURSELVES, abstain from evil?  NO WAY!  Only the Holy Spirits work within ANY given MAN, can OVERRIDE the NATURE of that man... for of ourselves, we are all "desparately wicked in heart"... JOB was a part of the "ALL"...

That JOB had not done adversely (actions), does not mean that He had NOT THOUGHT to DO adversely... 

I fear God (respectfully) and "eschew evil" (abstain from purposely practicing it)... but that does not mean that I am without ADVERSITY, nor am immune to battling it within ME... even when I am not a willing participant...

Just as PAUL noted in Rom 7:23:  "I see another LAW ...within my MEMBERS, ...warring... against the LAW of my mind, and BRINGING ME into CAPTIVITY to the LAW of SIN which is ...IN... my... MEMBERS...

He also said this prior to that, bro:  Rom 7:16-17 ...if then, ...I DO... that which I WOULD NOT, I consent unto the LAW that it is GOOD... now then, it is NO MORE I that ...DO IT, but the SIN [adversity] that DWELLETH ...IN ME...



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

willieH: Hi Ron...  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 09, 2009, 11:34:43 PM
Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

YES Ron... that is exactly it...  :cloud9:

That which is ADVERSE is "satan"... and IT is not a "being" it is a PRINCIPLE...



:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

Satan is personified as being in the book of Job, just as wisdom is personified in proverbs. It seems that God provokes adversity to test Job; The Sabeans, a fire, Chaldeans, a wind, and finally boils. If you notice that at the end of Job, no 'being' is given recognition for Job's downfall except God himself..."And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." In reality it was the adverse things that did these things to Job, God just removed His hand of protection.

It wasn't the 'adversity' in Job that did these things, just adversity.

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

Tony, IMO God has to do very stupid things in very stupid ways to get His message to us. To make a man like Job and his friends and loved ones and to create a being, whether physical, spirtual, a metaphor, a personified essence or whatever like Satan is just that, a work of God. It is not a huge leap for me to imagine God talking the way He does about how Satan works especially if Satan is my carnal nature.

Tony, you must not have any kids. I have a lot of kids and I am constantly teaching them through personifying thoughts and ideas of mine. I am constantly using exaggeration and hyperbole and imagination and parables to teach them. This works amazingly well. Yes, sometimes direct facts are used and they work too but the most important and hardest things seem to be received better when taught not through the physical but through stories.

If God wanted to get across to me how my adverse nature works in accord with His grace I can't think of better ways to teach me than to show me exactly what I am made of through symbolic lives like Adam, Eve, Job and even Satan. To look at these lives as only physical people living physical lives leaves me wanting.

cp

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

Bingo Sarah!  :thumbsup: I think that at least adds to the picture.

Ron

Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

Quote from: claypot on February 10, 2009, 04:44:58 AM

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

Isn't this the case with Job too. Think about it. Notice that just before this appearing before God what Job is said to do with regard to his children:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Right after this, we see all these things come on Job, and he says this interesting, insightful statement:

Job 3:25  For the terror of which I meditated has come upon me, and that which I had feared has befallen me.

The adversary in him indeed was used by God, who became the expression of that adversary to him to bring him to the place of seeing God unlike he had never seen him before.

Ron

Quote from: peacemaker on February 10, 2009, 04:46:58 AM
Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

PM, didn't understand even a smidgen of what you wrote but sounds like there is something there!

cp

Quote from: willieH on February 10, 2009, 12:40:40 AM
I have cancer in my body Tony... I do not deduce that any being called SATAN has infested me with this disease...

(The term "Satan" and various understandings about it has been exhaustively hung out to dry on a couple of other lengthy threads.  Having followed it before, I personally do hope not to descend into a long revisiting of the topic again here.  We seemed to get so far and no more.  Some seem almost obsessed by the need to reiterate their own knowledge and conclusions if we stray too near any idea of a Satan.  In the following writing I'm not trying to establish an exclusive viewpoint on the question of Satan's existence as a distinct being of some sort.   I have not yet satisfied myself about the various orders or types of spirit beings or things, demons, evil angels, including "works" (of the devil,) to be able to speak with any but a limited authority.)

My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off from whom they're praying.  I also have a friend that got thrown out of a class in an Assembly of God Bible College for saying that cancer can be caused by demons.  Some men greatly used of God in the gifts of healings rebuke the devil, binding and commanding him and demons to leave before they pray for the sick and afflicted.  To curse the roots of these things, to cast these spirits out of the bodies of those they afflict is the right of the least child of God.

Nothing changes or remains the same except by means of spirit.

We are the flesh and bones of Christ Jesus.  He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.  Eagerly desiring His manifestation will be rewarded with the destruction of the devil's works.  Satan has nothing in Christ so we must enforce that in our being members of His body.

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 10, 2009, 04:53:11 AM

Quote from: claypot on February 10, 2009, 04:44:58 AM

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

Isn't this the case with Job too. Think about it. Notice that just before this appearing before God what Job is said to do with regard to his children:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Right after this, we see all these things come on Job, and he says this interesting, insightful statement:

Job 3:25  For the terror of which I meditated has come upon me, and that which I had feared has befallen me.

The adversary in him indeed was used by God, who became the expression of that adversary to him to bring him to the place of seeing God unlike he had never seen him before.

Ron

Ron, this is good stuff to meditate on. Thanks.

cp

Maybe the Bible is such a wordy book because it is God's way of intentionally giving us something that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. I believe God could have given any single and simple truth in very few words yet He has given us works (the Bible, nature, creation including the cosmos) that gives seemingly infinite possibilities. Giving us all this material to work with and then giving us the ability to individually think and imagine makes for a almost unlimited host of ideas and interpretations.

No wonder we have so much to talk, argue and get frustrated with each other about.

My point is that we should not get too obsessed by our own personal interpretation because it is only one of many. We should just share our views in humility, seeking to aid another and grow in ourselves.

cp

Quote from: reFORMer on February 10, 2009, 04:56:35 AM
My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off for whom they're praying. 

:cloud9: I have seen the same things reFormer. What you saw was making a pumping motion trying to pierce the "heart", ie. the sting of death.

Add to that, the Lord taught me that the carnal mind is like a spider. A spider web is like a fowler's net, in that it catches up our soul in soulish ties, and when enough have been used to slow down our ascent/growth in the Spirit, it then comes in and paralyzes it's victim so it can suck the very life out of it. O death, where is thy sting? Thus, to be carnally minded, IS death.

Sin, missing the mark of the mind of Christ as revealed by the Word and the Spirit, is what creates these soulish ties, until the victim loses the will to struggle against it finally. Sin satisfies for a season. Blessings....

Quote from: claypot on February 10, 2009, 05:13:38 AM
My point is that we should not get too obsessed by our own personal interpretation because it is only one of many. We should just share our views in humility, seeking to aid another and grow in ourselves.
cp

As EP said (even though he's left the building), "thank you.  Thank you very much".  :cool:

Quote from: claypot on February 10, 2009, 04:54:16 AM

Quote from: peacemaker on February 10, 2009, 04:46:58 AM
Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

PM, didn't understand even a smidgen of what you wrote but sounds like there is something there!

cp

CP, think of where the adversary lives, as in the center of symmetry, or the heart which pulls on the apparatus for navigating; the mind. Then, consider the teachings of the worldly churches, or organizations; Satan and Hell.

You will see more than a small amount of saltwater, as in possessing the life and intelligence of the people.

peacemaker

Until we have manifest victory over death we have a ways to go no matter how advanced or significant we might be.  It is a lie to say we have complete victory over the devil while still in corrupting flesh.  As long as something other than God reigns over us we don't yet have the liberty for which we are destined.  We may be walking in the light on the present place along the path where we now are, enjoying God's approval and the anointing of the Holy Spirit; but, until the last enemy is defeated we are not home.

"Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood  is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Co 15:50, CLV)  Then it talks about not everyone necessarily dying, but all must be changed.  Now "corruption" is the decay of a corpse, so it is not in death.  The corpse cannot put this on, though, "...the dead will be roused incorruptible." (vs. 52, CLV)  This total victory must include the physical body.  "...this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (vs.53, CLV)  We who are alive are mortal, we are "corruptible" but not to the extent of "corruption" of a corpse.  It is the living who, though mortal, must put on immortality.  What God does is by faith, so we have more to hear!

Quote from: Cardinal on February 10, 2009, 05:14:01 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on February 10, 2009, 04:56:35 AM
My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off for whom they're praying. 

:cloud9: I have seen the same things reFormer. What you saw was making a pumping motion trying to pierce the "heart", ie. the sting of death.

Add to that, the Lord taught me that the carnal mind is like a spider. A spider web is like a fowler's net, in that it catches up our soul in soulish ties, and when enough have been used to slow down our ascent/growth in the Spirit, it then comes in and paralyzes it's victim so it can suck the very life out of it. O death, where is thy sting? Thus, to be carnally minded, IS death.

Sin, missing the mark of the mind of Christ as revealed by the Word and the Spirit, is what creates these soulish ties, until the victim loses the will to struggle against it finally. Sin satisfies for a season. Blessings....

Yikes. :mshock:  That sounds like the dendrites coming out of a neuron--which would be ...thought, emotion, action...


http://www.fotosearch.com/CSP116/1168172/


http://www2.cedarcrest.edu/academic/bio/hale/bioT_EID/lectures/tetanus-neuron.gif

Quote from: reFORMer on February 10, 2009, 07:09:06 AM
Until we have manifest victory over death we have a ways to go no matter how advanced or significant we might be.  It is a lie to say we have complete victory over the devil while still in corrupting flesh.  As long as something other than God reigns over us we don't yet have the liberty for which we are destined.  We may be walking in the light on the present place along the path where we now are, enjoying God's approval and the anointing of the Holy Spirit; but, until the last enemy is defeated we are not home.

"Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood  is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Co 15:50, CLV)  Then it talks about not everyone necessarily dying, but all must be changed.  Now "corruption" is the decay of a corpse, so it is not in death.  The corpse cannot put this on, though, "...the dead will be roused incorruptible." (vs. 52, CLV)  This total victory must include the physical body.  "...this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (vs.53, CLV)  We who are alive are mortal, we are "corruptible" but not to the extent of "corruption" of a corpse.  It is the living who, though mortal, must put on immortality.  What God does is by faith, so we have more to hear!

:cloud9: Amen, Amen, Amen..... :thumbsup: we are the generation that is to enter into the promised land, ie. the full redemption of our bodies. The ark went ahead 2000 cubits (2 days in type) and we must keep our eyes on the ark because we have not passed this way before. Blessings....

willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM
Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Dear Tony, ...bless your  :HeartThrob:  ...I really don't think you WANT your question answered...  :laughing7:  And that is fine with me...  :dontknow:

ADVERSITY is at work in individuals... and when the HEDGE was removed, it meant that ADVERSITY which surrounded JOB, was free to have a hey-day on him...

And btw, ...Dear Tony, I DID answer your question, but you did not bother to read my answer!  

IMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

I would think that within your experience (which I am sure is quite adaquate), that you should be aware of this...

I ...SAID... that (1) satan is not a "he or him" (2) that adversity within us, can bring forth undesireable manifestations in our experience... like diseases such as cancer, aids, and natural disasters such as famine, tornadoes, earthquakes, car accidents, etc...

These are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

Some more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

QuoteDid the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

No Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANE, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

ADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

For the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

He does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Peace dude...   :angel4:



:drummer:  :gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  :angelharp:

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 09, 2009, 11:34:43 PM
Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

:cloud9: I hear you  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Willie, great insight IMO.

With Tony, I have made the same comments about him. He has his own style and it is his way of dealing with truth. I have said too that he is the cause of much good discussion on this thread. Through his relentless style the same things keep getting brought up but in different ways. He is adversarial to my way of thinking as I am to his yet this is a perfect example of how God uses satans works for good.

Willie, I am swimming with delight through your thoughts. Keep them coming!

cp

Willie,

I have enjoyed some of your thoughts. My only concern is that you are starting to sound like one of Job's friends; these things happened because of something Job did, a secret sin, etc. It seems the point of Job is answering the age old question, why does evil/adverse things happen? In the beginning of the book the answer seems to be to test wheather man will love God through adversity, and at the end the answer is only that God is soverign and who are we to question.

  actually systemic boils can kill you..Hezekiah had a boil that

  threatened his life.The ONLY REASON SATAN DID NOT KILL

  JOB,Is BECAUSE OF GOD'S COMMAND

  unclean and evil spirits are the opposite of holy spirit

 the spirit of LIFE,Love  comes from God and gives us life.

  the evil spirits are parsitical and bring death

    He will do away with them..they are merely a 'tool' that

   He  uses for our good and evil expierence on earth.

  Now..he works in our fleshly organism..seeds thought and

desires in our  mind and heart as the adversary....gives false

 prophesy, false dreams..is a liar and mankiller from the

  beginning.   There is a mystery of lawlessness that is to

 be revealed and the mystery of godliness that is to be revealed

   And it all boils down to these spirits...


  Spirit causes the mind of man to conceive..then motivate to

 action and bring about manifestations[the unseen is apparent

 through outward physical demonstration]


  it is war..between these spirits..a battle in our minds and

  hearts for control of our flesh.


         man-i-fe[a]st to show plainly,to make to appear distinctly



  Matt 13;40 wheat and tares parable was given to show the

       two contrasts, also. sheep and goat another wittness

       foolish and wise virgins... a tree and it's fruit[Matt7;15]

       wise and foolish builders

                                    Sheila
   

Quote from: willieH on February 10, 2009, 08:32:51 AM
willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 03:04:07 AM

QuoteDear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Dear Tony, ...bless your  :HeartThrob:  ...I really don't think you WANT your question answered...  :laughing7:  And that is fine with me...  :dontknow:

If I didn't want it answered I would not have asked for you to answer me.

QuoteADVERSITY is at work in individuals... and when the HEDGE was removed, it meant that ADVERSITY which surrounded JOB, was free to have a hey-day on him...

And btw, ...Dear Tony, I DID answer your question, but you did not bother to read my answer! 

If you answered it, why did I think you didn't?

QuoteIMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

You are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

QuoteI would think that within your experience (which I am sure is quite adaquate), that you should be aware of this...

I ...SAID... that (1) satan is not a "he or him" (2) that adversity within us, can bring forth undesireable manifestations in our experience... like diseases such as cancer, aids, and natural disasters such as famine, tornadoes, earthquakes, car accidents, etc...

Satan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.
So, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

QuoteThese are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

I bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

QuoteSome more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

But Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

QuoteDid the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

QuoteNo Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

The answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me. I want you to face your own theology. Furthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

QuoteADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

So, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

QuoteFor the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

For the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

QuoteHe does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Peace dude...   :angel4:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  :gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  :angelharp:

So, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

Tony, or anyone:

Just before all this happened to Job, the Bible says this:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Now, knowing that nothing is put in scripture arbitrarily, I would ask, why is this even mentioned? Could this have anything at all to do with what happened to Job? I believe it does, but if not, then for what other reason is it even mentioned?

Thanks,

Ron

Quote from: gregoryfl on February 10, 2009, 08:04:31 PM
Tony, or anyone:

Just before all this happened to Job, the Bible says this:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Now, knowing that nothing is put in scripture arbitrarily, I would ask, why is this even mentioned? Could this have anything at all to do with what happened to Job? I believe it does, but if not, then for what other reason is it even mentioned?

Thanks,

Ron

It shows Job as a righteous man. And since Job did offer up sacrifices for his children they were covered by those sacrifices.
So the evil that came upon the children was not for anything they did just as the evil the came upon Job was not for anything he did.

Job's friends said the evil came to him because he must have done some sin but God said they spoke wrongly.

Job, by the way, is a fitting type of Christ.

willieH: Hi Sarah... :hithere:

Quote from: Sarah on February 10, 2009, 05:35:31 PM
Willie,

I have enjoyed some of your thoughts. My only concern is that you are starting to sound like one of Job's friends; these things happened because of something Job did, a secret sin, etc.

Job had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9) :dontknow:

Quote from: Sarah on February 10, 2009, 05:35:31 PMIt seems the point of Job is answering the age old question, why does evil/adverse things happen? In the beginning of the book the answer seems to be to test wheather man will love God through adversity, and at the end the answer is only that God is soverign and who are we to question.

I observe God as COMPLETELY SOVEREIGN... all that occurs in His Creation, and to His Children has been outlined long before it happens... BY HIM...  Then, when we enter TIME, we walk the pathway which He had already declared we would... 

Example of this is found in Romans 9:11... Jacob and Esau followed a pathway which was already in place even before they were born... GOD is IMPARTIAL, therefore... what was spoken of them (outlined before they were BORN, and had neither "DONE" any good Or evil), the same is applicable to all others whom GOD has chosen shall walk in TIME...

This whole thing is NOT about US... it is completely, about HIM...  He is revealing to HIS BODY, Who and What He ...IS... that forever we shall be able to VIEW His GLORY as it truly is, having had this experience...

Let me make a quick explain... If you are RICH and NEVER see anything other than PROSPERITY... how may you esteem your scenario?  You shall think it to be NORMAL or "the way it IS"... Not thankful, nor appreciative... rather, complacent... expectant... observant of that prosperity, not as a great thing... rather as a "taken for granted" thing... 

However... if you were to be thrust into POVERTY... you shall SOON gain a perspective that shall NEVER leave you, which GLORIFIES that prosperity, and instills a thankfulness for its existence...  Ever see the Mel Brooks movie "Life Stinks"?  Rent it sometime... it completely displays what I have said here... (and its a really funny movie, to boot!  :laughing7:)

The "age old question" you ask above -- "why do evil/adverse things happen?" is easily answered IMO...

This IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

I agree Sarah, that WE are NOT allowed to QUESTION, nor should we... God makes this plain in His WORD that the CLAY has no "right" to "talk back" to the POTTER as to how and why it is shapen as the POTTER so decides... (Rom 9:20)




:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:  

willieH: Hi Shiela...  :cloud9:

Quote from: sheila on February 10, 2009, 06:12:02 PM

  actually systemic boils :dontknow:can kill you

:shakepoint:  A cold can KILL you... but normally... with boils (which was my point), it is NOT the case as is seen with MOST CANCER and AIDS... which were my examples by comparision...  :dontknow:

Remember that GOD noted that whatever "satan" (adversity) (Job 2:7) brought against JOB, it was NOT to be LIFE THREATENING... (Job 2:6) :dontknow:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

QuoteJob had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9)

Of course Job wasn't perfect as he is a man, but it appears that the author of Job makes the point that he was 'blameless, 'upright', 'feared God', and 'shunned evil'. Therefore, let me rephrase what Job is trying to answer;  Why do GOOD men go through adversity? It isn't because of the evil they have done or thought, but as you say here...

QuoteThis IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

Job supports this in that at the end of his trials as he says,"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." It isn't so much because of sins, as Job's friends accuse him of, that he goes through these trials, but so that Job can know God.

Quote from: Sarah on February 10, 2009, 11:02:36 PM

QuoteJob had "did" nothing outwardly which is so stated by YHVH in the opening chapter of Job, noting that Job had "avoided" evil... but nothing is said that he had not beheld it (evil) in the heart... Job was a MAN, and therefore his HEART in its NATURAL stated, is Desparately Wicked... (Jer 17:9)

Of course Job wasn't perfect as he is a man, but it appears that the author of Job makes the point that he was 'blameless, 'upright', 'feared God', and 'shunned evil'. Therefore, let me rephrase what Job is trying to answer;  Why do GOOD men go through adversity? It isn't because of the evil they have done or thought, but as you say here...

QuoteThis IS the process of KNOWING (the VEIL removed from) both Good AND Evil... for Good cannot be KNOWN without EVIL and vice-versa... and THAT is WHY evil/adverse things happen...

Job supports this in that at the end of his trials as he says,"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." It isn't so much because of sins, as Job's friends accuse him of, that he goes through these trials, but so that Job can know God.

If judged by Job's works, he was righteous. The problem was, Job was righteous and knew it. That is, Job thought because of the works he did God punished him unjustly. He thought he really didn't deserve the trials he was having.

Notice: Job argued with God, felt sorry for himself, cursed the day he was born, bragged about the things he had done for others. Was a little prideful. He said (Job 29:The young men saw me, and hid themselves:and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.

Here was Job's problem: (Job 29:8-17)
Because I delievered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
Icaused the widows heart to sing for joy.
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me.
I was eyes to the blind, ans feet was I to the lame.
I was a father to the poor: and the cause I knew not I searched out.
I brake the jaws of the wicked.

(Verse 25) of that chapter I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforted the mourners.

Do you see God in any of the above verses? It kind of reminds me of what God did to Nebuchadnezzar.He didn't give God all the credit for the things he did. This is why Job finally said "now mine eye seeth thee".

It wasn't the works that Job did that was wrong, it was his attitude about those works that was the problem. Job reminded me a little of the pharisees, they kept the law that was required of them but they were also prideful, boastful, and self righteous. 

It is the same with us today, we want to take credit for things that belong to God. We don't give him all the honor, glory and praise, we are a bunch of self righteous, prideful, boastful, people.

You might say the book of Job is human nature.

CHB

Good food for thought CHB and well thought out and presented.  :thumbsup:

CHB, you wrote.....

You might say the book of Job is human nature.

That is much said in a few words!

I see the whole Bible as the blueprint of each person and creation as a whole. The Bible is the DNA map if you will.

cp

 Job justified God when he repented of his attitude..that was

  borne of ignorance..".things I knew not" Elihu's anger

  burned because Job justified himself,rather than God.


   Then God,justified Job before Eliphaz and his two 'freinds'

  after he had repented in 'dust and ashes'

   ...these freinds...in order to 'justify" God..felt they had

 to 'condemn" Job..   see it all the time..people's images of

God..condemning mankind to everlasting torment.See it all the

time ...men condemning God for their 'unwarrented' suffering


  Willie; I said 'the only reason satan didn't kill Job was

  God's command" I know he could not take his life...

  I made the comment about the seriousness of malignant/

 systemic boils,d/t a sentence that seemed to diminish

 Job's suffering. Job escaped by the 'skin of his teeth'[Job

 19;20]  


  Ezekiel 14;20  though Noah,Daniel  and Job,were in it,

 as I live,saith the Lord God,they shall deliver neither son

 nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by

 their righteousness.


  James 5;11  Behold,we count them happy which endure.Ye

  have heard of the pateince of Job,and have seen the end of

  the Lord;  ; that the Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy .


   He is an example for us of enduring suffering when we are

 ignorant of the reason for it, or feel it is unwarranted.Job did

 not 'curse God and die' he held on to his spiritual life..in

  hope of an audience with God.He cried out for understanding.


     We,too, must suffer for righteousness sake..if we

  follow Christ...if it be the will of God, that we do so.

                                Sheila

willieH: Hi Tony...  :Peace:

Let me begin by saying that I hold you as my brother, and I mean no offenses to you.  But at the same time, I am not into playing games in discussion... use of sarcastic comments sour my taste to discuss... If I have misread your true intentions, I apologize.   :sigh:

Quote from: willieHIMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMYou are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

I'm sorry you are disappointed in my Tony... and I am hardly being defensive... I just dont wish to play games with questions that are not plain & simple... If you have been offended by that, I am sorry... And it is entirely possible that it is my descrepancy not yours, and that others might have observed your questions as "to the point and clear", I did not...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSatan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

I am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

Gender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns...

For instance the pronoun inferences in John 1:3 [him], John 1:4 [him], John 1:10-11  [he,him]  -- which refer to CHRIST named later in the context... are NOT in the text as pronouns, and are inserted notations of masculine gender because they refer to an entity which was masculine in human form noted later on in the CONTEXT.  However... the Greek Language does not define the word LOGOS as possesing a particular gender... which is the WORD of GOD, to which the pronouns "He and Him" are used in reference TO...

Furthermore, the word "satan" as used in the NT, is DIRECT reference to the HEBREW Word "satan" (not a "Greek word, originating in the Greek language) which has no gender... it is an adjective, not a noun.

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSo, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

I did not mean to accuse you of anything Tony, spare me the drama...  I said it was baiting of sorts... which I didnt intend on being an accusation, I was more stating that I didnt want to go back & forth sarcastically.

MEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL [WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped]...

CHRIST was TEMPTED... by the LUST which proceeded from the FLESH that He was born into... not by some fallitious "Hell master"...  :laughing7:  Which advised Him negatively in the same way ALL men are advised, from WITHIN...

When did "satan" ever tempt you Tony?  We all fall to the FLESH, not to some fictional phony with a pitchfork...  :grin:

TORNADOES are a matter of NATURE, which is become ADVERSE to men because of their NATURAL Disobedience to the Creator...

ADAM was given jurisdiction [dominion] over the EARTH, ...when He FELL into disobedience which was wrought by His FLESH... he gave over that jursidiction to ADVERSITY... so NOW man does NOT have dominion over all the Earth... Go confront a GRIZZLY BEAR or a RATTLESNAKE bro... and you shall find out first hand!

Your and my flesh do not cause NATURAL disasters, they are become instruments of the WRATH of GOD which comes AGAINST the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ...OF... men, who HOLD the TRUTH in unrighteousness, via that PRIDEFUL disobedience displayed by them all...

As far Job or Joseph, you (nor I) can not make this call, for you do not know their hearts... As far as JESUS is concerned, it was part of HIS MISSION to redeem, that ADVERSITY was put on His plate...  It is not a question of anyone being DESERVING or not... it is a question of the ORDINATION of the process and PURPOSE of GOD... and ALL THINGS occur according to how HE has PURPOSED them as HE WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... NO man is to question that PURPOSE, regardless of the OPINION that it is not DESERVED, as PAUL notes in Romans 9.

Quote from: willieHThese are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMI bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

Your own "speculation" eh?  :laughing7:

What revelance has this statement Tony?  The Scripture does not indicate his body was COVERED (all though it could have been) -- SPECIFICALLY, it says that he had SORE BOILS from the sole of his foot unto his crown. 

It is an assumption that JOB was covered with boils... It just says (1) that he had them, and (2) they were sore, and (3) that they appeared on his body from head to toe...  :dontknow:  That most figure this means he was covered or that there was some great number of them, is NOT indicated.

Quote from: willieHSome more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD... which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!  :laugh:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMBut Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

This again is assumption Tony... There is no LINGUAL indication that "satan" is or ever was MALE... why would this be?  Where are ANGELS ever noted as having GENDER?  As I said, Hebrew and Greek do not employ pronouns...

If indeed "satan" as believed traditionally was a FALLEN "ANGEL" (there is no such thing)... and ANGELS in the WORD are noted as WITHOUT GENDER, for there is neither MALE nor FEMALE in the Heavenly realm as CHRIST indicated in: Matt 22:30... "but ARE, ...AS the ANGELS in Heaven"... neither MARRYING or GIVING in MARRIAGE... in the HEAVENLY realm, there is no GENDER necessary...

Then, even if you were correct, and "satan" IS a being, it still remains an IT, for there is no indication of gender in the SPIRITUAL realm...

Paul also noted in the SPIRITUAL there IS no SEPARATING parameters: Gal 3:28... there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE nor FEMALE, for ye are ALL - ONE, in CHRIST JESUS.

When GOD made ADAM [man] He made them both simultaneously... the WOMAN was IN the MAN... The only reason there is Male/female in this realm is for procreation... but in the end Woman and Man are 2 sides of the same sword brother T...

Quote from: TonyNDid the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

Quote from: willieHNo Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... (Rom 1:18)... and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMThe answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me.  I want you to face your own theology.

And I -- you, ...Tony!  Is PETER ..."satan" Tony?  CHRIST ADDRESSED Peter as such!  And just before He named PETER as "satan", CHRIST noted that He would BUILD his CHURCH upon Peter's/satan's ministry!  Is that what you think Tony? Be forthright now, brother... and, face your own THEOLOGY!

You wish me to face my theology, something it appears, that you are unwilling to do yourself...  :sigh:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMFurthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

You cannot KNOW this Tony... face your own THEOLOGY!  YOU are unable to determine what was due JOB, ...you cant even determine what is DUE YOURSELF...

That our SINS are forgiven does not mean we shall not reap what we have sown WHILE in this life...  He doesn't reckon our trespasses against us, which reconciles us to Himself, yet SUFFERING persists for all...  It is because SUFFERING is part of that RECONCILIATION...

You cannot KNOW what GOD does in your circumstances Tony... Self evaluation in this, is self deception.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed... and You and I follow CHRIST in suffering in this world, for it is the process of PERFECTION...

I wasn't noting a prophecy about you,Please! :rolleye: 

I was trying to illustrate and you know this... You, as you often do are being obstinate... You REAP what you SEW bro... and that you cannot even remember what clothes you wore or what you had to eat 2 weeks ago, is evidence enough that you cannot retrace your life and find that there is nothing due you...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I don't remember DOING anything that generated this disease, yet it is there.  Are you able to give me a reason WHY it is there, threatening my life?  Do I deserve it Tony?  If so, ...WHY?  My sins are not RECKONED unto me any longer!  WHY is the CANCER there?

Face your theology bro... and tell my WHY, CANCER is threatening my life.  :dontknow:  Is it because you think, "satan" is poking me with "his" CANCER fork? Please! :rolleye:

For whatever reason, which I, myself am not able to determine, ...it is THERE and would NOT BE THERE, unless GOD has made the call that it be so... and the He is not required to give to me the reason... Neither is your theology REASONABLE concerning it...

Quote from: willieHADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSo, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

ALL of our lives are OPEN before Him, even BEFORE we are born! Your precious "red guy" did not have to go before GOD to petition wrath against JOB... GOD knows all before it occurs... and it is WRITTEN that those men [sabeans] went against JOB... because it was IN THEIR NATURE to do so... And moreso, because GOD's WORD ...says they did...  :mshock:

GOD doesn't need to tell our flesh anything... the CARNAL MAN does by NATURE, that which YHVH has already DECREED to be... and that is to DISOBEY... no "halloween character" necessary...  :laughhand:

You actually really make me laugh bro...  :laughing7:  Gotta loveya!  :friendstu:

Quote from: willieHFor the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan"... :rolleye:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMFor the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

I agree, JOB ...DID... nothing to deserve evil... but was his heart any different than any other man? NO!  His HEART was Desparately Wicked...  As CHRIST taught that even TO THINK of LUST after a woman is the CONSUMATION of it...  You'd think you would know this, but obviously you don't...

JOB's HEART was not discussed, only his physical actions which "eschewed" [avoided] and did not manifest the deeds of evil...

Quote from: willieHHe does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSo, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

Tee-hee  :laughhand:  You are stuck in CARNAL observations bro... and far be it from me to wish that should change... Go with whatcha think...  Whatever works forya...

You have amply displayed that I am found talking to the wind...  :sigh:

You are welcome to embrace your fantasy... as for me... I have already done my time within this deceptive belief...  :wacko2:

You are welcome to have my share of it...  :laughing7:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Job chapter two ...

... there was a time when the young men of the ruler came to present themselves before the judge, and the accuser also came with them to present himself before the judge.

Was this because the sons of Job had cursed the young men; the sons of the ruler?

The accuser must have been invited to the banquet? Wonder if it might have been at the invitation of the three sisters?

And the judge said to the accuser "from where do you come?" And the accuser answered the judge, "from wandering back and forth, in and on the earth" and "from walking all over it."

And the judge said to the accuser, "Have you considered (him) the manservant, Job - there is none like him in all the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that fears the ruler, and put aside his wicked ways?"

"He is still holding strong in his integrity (undiminished), although you incite me against him (because of your accusations), to disperse him without a cause."

And the accuser, answered the judge, and said, "Life for life, yes, all that a man has will he give for his life."

To risk one's life, for their children!

And the judge said to the accuser, "Behold, he is in your hands but keep watch over his life."

So, the accuser went out from the presence of the judge, and beat Job badly, from the sole of his foot to the top of his head ... Wounds suffered from trauma provide staph bacteria with an entry point into the human body, and a potential cause of skin boils.

"A shady scheme is to be punished for a mere accusation."

If Job would have cursed the ruler, and not humbled himself in, perhaps, sacrificing himself for his children (a fitting type of Christ), would the punishment have been more severe?

For surely, it was not for correction unto righteousness, nor for the omission or commission of an act.

Sounds very familiar  :JCThink:

peacemaker

Job repents because he 'spoke of things I didn't understand' and 'things too wonderful for me to know.'

It isn't about finding what Job did to merit suffering. It is about recognizing the bigness of God, and the smallness of our reasoning when it comes to suffering. Even when I say that 'I suffered so I can know God', it is gratituitous. Why can't we accept that we don't have all of the answers? I believe we all become like Job's friends when we try to pin it on Job. Truly the only thing I see as far as reasoning goes for the suffering of Job is to test his loyalty to God. Which in my own reasoning seems mean....but doesn't that make me guilty of Job's sin? 'I spoke of things I didn't understand and things too wonderful for me to know.'

Quote from: willieH on February 11, 2009, 03:46:19 AM
willieH: Hi Tony
Let me begin by saying that I hold you as my brother, and I mean no offenses to you.  But at the same time, I am not into playing games in discussion... use of sarcastic comments sour my taste to discuss... If I have misread your true intentions, I apologize.

Quote from: willieHIMO, ...You are being purposely and intentionally CRYPTIC... which doesnt fly for me... I did enough time with the sarcasm of Craig when he was here, and am not going to get into a "tit for tat" with you... it is baiting of sorts which really hasn't a motive to learn or expand, rather is a defense mechanism which endeavors to deflect that which opposes your present beliefs... I see it all the time on ET forums...

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMYou are the one being defensive, not me. And now you accuse me of wrong doing. Willie, I'm disappointed in you.

I'm sorry you are disappointed in my Tony... and I am hardly being defensive... I just dont wish to play games with questions that are not plain & simple... If you have been offended by that, I am sorry... And it is entirely possible that it is my descrepancy not yours, and that others might have observed your questions as "to the point and clear", I did not.  

Dear Willie, my question was very plain and very simple: If Satan is in our flesh, then how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get before God for God to have a discussion with their flesh? And how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get sent on a mission from God to destroy Job. How did the flesh bring forth the fire from heaven, the mighty wind to blow over the house the children were in, the robbing of all Job had?

How much simpler can I make it? The problem is this: The question above confronts your theology that Satan is in our flesh as being bad theology.

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSatan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

I am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

QuoteGender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns.

That is incorrect, Willie. They do appear in Greek all the time. Here is a list of the pronouns in Greek:
(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/pronoun1.gif)

And the pronouns in Greek have gender to go with the noun they refer to:

(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/autxx.gif)

Willie stated:

QuoteFor instance the pronoun inferences in John 1:3 [him], John 1:4 [him], John 1:10-11  [he,him]  -- which refer to CHRIST named later in the context... are NOT in the text as pronouns, and are inserted notations of masculine gender because they refer to an entity which was masculine in human form noted later on in the CONTEXT.  However... the Greek Language does not define the word LOGOS as possesing a particular gender... which is the WORD of GOD, to which the pronouns "He and Him" are used in reference TO...

Look in any Greek text and you will see that gender is in fact attached to the word Satan. He is always masculine gender.
Actually the Greek does in fact define the word LOGOS as possessing a particular gender. LOGOS is masculine as well.

QuoteFurthermore, the word "satan" as used in the NT, is DIRECT reference to the HEBREW Word "satan" (not a "Greek word, originating in the Greek language) which has no gender... it is an adjective, not a noun.

Tony's reply: Interesting. I don't know where you are getting your information but in my "Analytical Key to the Old Testament" for Job 1:6 Satan is noun, masculine, singular as he also in in 1:7,8,9,12; 2:1,2,3,4 etc. etc. and is not an adjective.

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSo, not meaning to be cryptic or baiting as you falsely accuse me of, but how does Satan in our flesh call for tornados especially when we don't merit it? Jesus didn't merit the suffering he endured, neither did Joseph in the O.T. and neither did Job.

QuoteI did not mean to accuse you of anything Tony, spare me the drama...  I said it was baiting of sorts... which I didnt intend on being an accusation, I was more stating that I didnt want to go back & forth sarcastically.

Accusing me of being cryptic and baiting surely is an accusation. Are you going to redefine your terms as you go along like Bill Clinton did with "it"?

QuoteMEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stone
Mat 4:3 "And, approaching, the trier said to Him, "If you are God's Son, say that these stones may be becoming cakes of bread."

The trier was not there and then the trier approached Him. Now then if the trier was already in Christ's flesh then how was it not with Him and then was with Him? If your scenario is true then words have no meaning.

QuoteCHRIST was TEMPTED... by the LUST which proceeded from the FLESH that He was born into... not by some fallitious "Hell master".  Which advised Him negatively in the same way ALL men are advised, from WITHIN...

Christ was tried. Mat 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the Adversary." It does not say that Jesus was led into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the FLESH. I like God's version better. It makes more sense.

QuoteWillie wrote: When did "satan" ever tempt you Tony?  We all fall to the FLESH, not to some fictional phony with a pitchfork.

Tony's reply: I don't believe in a fictional phony with a pitchfork either. That is a straw man you prop up as if I believe that. He doesn't have horns, is not red, does not have a pitchfork, and does not have cloven hooves but probably looks like a really nice handsome manlike creation of God.

QuoteWillie wrote: TORNADOES are a matter of NATURE, which is become ADVERSE to men because of their NATURAL Disobedience to the Creator...

So, then, the fire from heaven did not come from God but from Job's flesh? It came because of Job being adverse to his Creator? Funny, just the opposite is the case in Job. He is a type of Christ. He was perfect and righteous and not deserving of what came upon him just like Christ. I'm sure you believe then that Christ did something to deserve being crucified. Some secret sin maybe? Something in His flesh caused Him to be crucified? Some sort of adversary in His flesh?

QuoteADAM was given jurisdiction [dominion] over the EARTH, ...when He FELL into disobedience which was wrought by His FLESH... he gave over that jursidiction to ADVERSITY... so NOW man does NOT have dominion over all the Earth... Go confront a GRIZZLY BEAR or a RATTLESNAKE bro... and you shall find out first hand!

Nothing a good .44 can't handle.

QuoteYour and my flesh do not cause NATURAL disasters, they are become instruments of the WRATH of GOD which comes AGAINST the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ...OF... men, who HOLD the TRUTH in unrighteousness, via that PRIDEFUL disobedience displayed by them all...

That is not the case in the book of Job. Let us hear from God's own mouth:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the country of Uz. Job was his name. And this man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

Job 1:8 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

Job 2:3 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart against my servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil. And he still is holding fast to his integrity,

QuoteAs far Job or Joseph, you (nor I) can not make this call, for you do not know their hearts... As far as JESUS is concerned, it was part of HIS MISSION to redeem, that ADVERSITY was put on His plate...  It is not a question of anyone being DESERVING or not... it is a question of the ORDINATION of the process and PURPOSE of GOD... and ALL THINGS occur according to how HE has PURPOSED them as HE WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL... NO man is to question that PURPOSE, regardless of the OPINION that it is not DESERVED, as PAUL notes in Romans 9.

So now you are reversing your stance? You believed Satan is in the flesh but that the things which happened to Job and Joseph were just the natural outcome of man's adversity to God? So now you are stating that all the horror Job endured came as a result of humanity being adverse to God? Willie, you seem to be all over the map on this one.

Quote

Quote from: willieHThese are ADVERSE to our lives in every way... JOB's boils were not fun, but hardly to be compared to CANCER or AIDS... of today...  They were a TEMPORARY NON-LIFE threatening thing...

Quote from: Tony NI bet Job and friends thought he was dying.

Your own "speculation" eh?

No more speculation than your speculating Satan is in our flesh.

QuoteWhat revelance has this statement Tony?  The Scripture does not indicate his body was COVERED (all though it could have been) -- SPECIFICALLY, it says that he had SORE BOILS from the sole of his foot unto his crown.  

It is an assumption that JOB was covered with boils... It just says (1) that he had them, and (2) they were sore, and (3) that they appeared on his body from head to toe. That most figure this means he was covered or that there was some great number of them, is NOT indicated.

If I were covered from my foot to the top of my head with evil boils, you can best bet the boils were covering me from head to toe. The revelance to my question is nill. The real questions that should be asked: Was Satan in Job's flesh causing the boils? as you surmise? Did Job's flesh go before God and did God talk to Job's flesh and tell Job's flesh to smite himself with boils?

Quote from: willieHSome more  "re"-answer forya:

GOD removes adversity via the presence and Revelation of His WORD. which is BASIC spiritual understanding... In my experience with you and reading your writings you should be far past this...

(1) "satan" is not a "him", it is an "it"... It is no more a "him" than "laughter"...
(2) "satan" did not DO anything... the removal of GOD's "HEDGE of protection" is that which prompted ADVERSITY to manifest into JOB's scenario... just like if the roof blew off your house, and the rainfall, drenches you in your living room as you watch TV!

Quote from: Tony NBut Satan is male gender and not an neuter gender. God sent Satan to go after Job. God didn't talk to Job's flesh and tell the satan in Job's flesh to attack all Job had.

QuoteThis again is assumption Tony... There is no LINGUAL indication that "satan" is or ever was MALE... why would this be?  Where are ANGELS ever noted as having GENDER?  As I said, Hebrew and Greek do not employ pronouns...

Of course they employ pronouns. "Messenger" or "angel" in the New Testament Greek is always masculine. I never said "male" but "masculine" gender. Angels or messengers in the O.T. were often said to be men.

Gen 19:1  And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Gen 19:5  And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Gen 19:8  Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Gen 19:10  But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. Gen 19:11  And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

QuoteIf indeed "satan" as believed traditionally was a FALLEN "ANGEL" (there is no such thing)... and ANGELS in the WORD are noted as WITHOUT GENDER, for there is neither MALE nor FEMALE in the Heavenly realm as CHRIST indicated in: Matt 22:30. "but ARE, ...AS the ANGELS in Heaven"... neither MARRYING or GIVING in MARRIAGE... in the HEAVENLY realm, there is no GENDER necessary...

Then, even if you were correct, and "satan" IS a being, it still remains an IT, for there is no indication of gender in the SPIRITUAL realm...

Satan is masculine gender in Hebrew and Greek and is not an "it" or neuter gender.
The Bible does not say the angels are neither male nor female as you wrongly suppose but says:

Mar 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
The angels just do not marry. It does not say they are neither male nor female.

QuotePaul also noted in the SPIRITUAL there IS no SEPARATING parameters: Gal 3:28. there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE nor FEMALE, for ye are ALL - ONE, in CHRIST JESUS.

That is the "in Christ" relationship. In the Lord relationship Paul stated in Colossians 3:18-4:1 that there are slaves and free, wives and husbands (male and female obviously) and wrote about Jews and Greeks whereas "in Christ" there is no Jew nor Greek, male, female, slave etc.

QuoteWhen GOD made ADAM [man] He made them both simultaneously... the WOMAN was IN the MAN... The only reason there is Male/female in this realm is for procreation... but in the end Woman and Man are 2 sides of the same sword brother T...

And what does God making Adam a hermaphrodite have to do with your mistaken belief that Satan is dwelling in our flesh?

Quote from: TonyNDid the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

Quote from: willieHNo Tony... just as a GANG that beats the hoolie out of you in an alley is not necessarily brought on by YOU (although it could be)...  After such an event, you might be wondering -- "what did I do to them"?  And the answer eludes you... for GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. (Rom 1:18). and possibly the ADVERSE beating you recieved at the hands of the GANG, ...is your REAPED (satan/adverse) result for previously SEWN (satan/adverse) deeds that you may have long forgotten.

Quote from: Tony NThe answer doesn't elude me. I just want you to be forthright in answering me.  I want you to face your own theology.

QuoteAnd I -- you, ...Tony!  Is PETER ..."satan" Tony?  CHRIST ADDRESSED Peter as such!  And just before He named PETER as "satan", CHRIST noted that He would BUILD his CHURCH upon Peter's/satan's ministry!  Is that what you think Tony? Be forthright now, brother... and, face your own THEOLOGY!

Tony's reply:
Satan in the N.T. can either be an adversary or THE Adversary. Peter, at the time he was telling Christ not to go to the cross was adversarial to His goal. Christ was not implying that Peter was Satan in the flesh.
Christ did not say He would build His church on Peter's ministry but upon the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

QuoteYou wish me to face my theology, something it appears, that you are unwilling to do yourself.

So you say. Face your own music Willie.

Quote from: Tony NFurthermore I wouldn't get beat up in an alley because of God's wrath. God is not reckoning our offenses to us and is at peace with us. As Sarah wrote: Job's friends who wrongly spoke of God (God said so) said these things must have happened to Job for the sins in his life. They didn't. And neither would I get beat up for some previous sins in my life.

QuoteYou cannot KNOW this Tony... face your own THEOLOGY!  YOU are unable to determine what was due JOB, ...you cant even determine what is DUE YOURSELF...

Of course I know it Willie. If I didn't know it I wouldn't have said it. And of course I am able to determine was was due Job. He did nothing to merit what he got. God told us Job was flawless and upright. the Bible tells me that God is not reckoning my offenses to me and is at peace with me. So why should He send a gang to beat me up for some sin in my flesh? He wouldn't. I know He wouldn't. I am facing my theology, you aren't.

QuoteThat our SINS are forgiven does not mean we shall not reap what we have sown WHILE in this life...  He doesn't reckon our trespasses against us, which reconciles us to Himself, yet SUFFERING persists for all...  It is because SUFFERING is part of that RECONCILIATION...

Now you are moving the goal posts once again. Jesus sowed nothing and got murdered. Job did nothing to warrant his great losses. Joseph did nothing.

QuoteYou cannot KNOW what GOD does in your circumstances Tony... Self evaluation in this, is self deception.  GOD's WRATH ...IS... revealed... and You and I follow CHRIST in suffering in this world, for it is the process of PERFECTION...

God is at peace with the world. God is happy. God is not at this point in time reckoning our offenses to us. We don't have some diabolic "thing" in our flesh causing God to "get us."

QuoteI wasn't noting a prophecy about you,Please! :rolleye: 

I was trying to illustrate and you know this... You, as you often do are being obstinate... You REAP what you SEW bro... and that you cannot even remember what clothes you wore or what you had to eat 2 weeks ago, is evidence enough that you cannot retrace your life and find that there is nothing due you...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I don't remember DOING anything that generated this disease, yet it is there.  Are you able to give me a reason WHY it is there, threatening my life?  Do I deserve it Tony?  If so, ...WHY?  My sins are not RECKONED unto me any longer!  WHY is the CANCER there?

Face your theology bro... and tell my WHY, CANCER is threatening my life.  :dontknow:  Is it because you think, "satan" is poking me with "his" CANCER fork? Please!

For whatever reason, which I, myself am not able to determine, ...it is THERE and would NOT BE THERE, unless GOD has made the call that it be so... and the He is not required to give to me the reason... Neither is your theology REASONABLE concerning it...

Cancer fork? Another straw man argument meant to make me look stupid. The cancer surely is not there because Satan is in your flesh. It is not there because you did something to make God give you cancer. It is there because death was passed through into you due to what Adam did, not due to Satan in your flesh. Death has been operating in you your whole life and will do so till you finally die.

Quote from: willieHADVERSITY (which ALSO dwelt within the "Sabeans" who were also men), was that which "ransacked" a now UNPROTECTED JOB...  :declare:

What does "unprotected" have to do with Satan being in our or Job's flesh? Did the Sabean's flesh go before God and God tell the Satan in their flesh: "Have you seen Job etc.?" No. God sent Satan on a mission and Satan got the Sabeans to go after Job. He didn't use a cancer fork to make them do it eather nor a fork in the road nor a forked tongue.

Quote from: Tony NSo, according to you, rather than Satan going before God, somehow Job's flesh and the Sabeans' flesh went before God and God told the satan in their flesh to go after Job but don't kill Job?

QuoteALL of our lives are OPEN before Him, even BEFORE we are born! Your precious "red guy" did not have to go before GOD to petition wrath against JOB... GOD knows all before it occurs... and it is WRITTEN that those men [sabeans] went against JOB... because it was IN THEIR NATURE to do so... And moreso, because GOD's WORD ...says they did.

Tony's reply: Sorry but you keep misrepresenting my position. I never claimed Satan is a "red guy." You love making straw men arguments, don't you?
Sorry but those Sabeans never went against Job until God told Satan to go after Job. The Bible does not say they went after Job because it was in their nature to do so. You just made that up.
I suppose you believe it was just the nature of the fire of Elohim to strike righteous Job's belongings:

Job 1:16 This one was still speaking when another came and said, The fire of Elohim, it fell from the heavens, it consumed the flock and the lads, and it devoured them, yet I escaped, but I myself alone, to tell it to you." Of course, according to you, God didn't have anything to do with His fire just as (according to you) the Sabeans just had this thing in their flesh against Job. God didn't send Satan on a mission. Satan was already there, in their flesh all the time. God was just making that part up. The fire just slipped out of His control, kind of like a bad fart.

QuoteGOD doesn't need to tell our flesh anything... the CARNAL MAN does by NATURE, that which YHVH has already DECREED to be... and that is to DISOBEY... no "halloween character" necessary...  :laughhand:

You actually really make me laugh bro.  Gotta loveya!

The carnal man does not make God's fire fall upon him nor make a wind attack Job's house to kill his children.  Job did nothing disobedient to call forth all that came upon him. You make me cry.

Quote from: willieHFor the last time (hopefully) Tony... GOD is NEVER manipulated... No one "calls" anything from Him... nor barks DIRECTIVES to Him... least of all "satan".

Quote from: Tony NFor the last time (hopefully) Willie, I never said God is manipulated. God is the One who brought up Job before Satan. God told Satan that Job was righteous. Job did nothing to deserve his evil.

QuoteI agree, JOB ...DID... nothing to deserve evil... but was his heart any different than any other man? NO!  His HEART was Desparately Wicked...  As CHRIST taught that even TO THINK of LUST after a woman is the CONSUMATION of it...  You'd think you would know this, but obviously you don't...

The point of Job is that he was "a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil." These things did not come upon him due to lust in his heart. You'd think you know this, but obviously you don't.

QuoteJOB's HEART was not discussed, only his physical actions which "eschewed" [avoided] and did not manifest the deeds of evil...

Then why bring his heart up since it is not germain to the topic of Job?

Quote from: willieHHe does as HE, before the beginning of all this, ...SOVEREIGNLY ordained the History of man to be as it so transpires -- End from the Beginning (Is 46:10-11)... Those things that ARE NOT as though they WERE (Rom 4:17)

Among those things includes man's NATURAL ADVERSITY... which is a principality within his makeup, NOT some RELIGION created mythical"red guy with a forked tail"  :laughing7:

Tony's reply:
Another straw man. I don't believe Satan is a "red guy with a forked tail." "Natural adversity" is not in view in Job's life to call forth what he got. It seems the only real mythical thing is you believing in some mythological thing called Satan in your flesh.

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSo, I think you answered my question that Satan was in Job's flesh and Job sinned or did something to get God mad at him. So the satan in Job's flesh and the Sabeans flesh went after Job and somehow the flesh brought forth the fire from heaven and the wind and the thievery? Please, Willie, I don't think so. It doesn't work that way.

Tony

QuoteTee-hee  :laughhand:  You are stuck in CARNAL observations bro... and far be it from me to wish that should change... Go with whatcha think...  Whatever works forya...

You have amply displayed that I am found talking to the wind...  :sigh:

You are welcome to embrace your fantasy... as for me... I have already done my time within this deceptive belief...  :wacko2:

You are welcome to have my share of it...  :laughing7:

Now you accuse me of being carnal, and live in a fantasy world and my belief is deceptive. If I were a moderator of this board you'd have had your post deleted long ago and been warned about your attacks.

Willie, it is not spiritual for you to disbelieve what God has told us. It is not spiritual for you to tell me that Job did something to merit what he got. Your views on Satan being in your flesh are not spiritual but esoteric.

I think Job repented because he came to see how small he was compared to God.  God said "where were you when I did this or that"? If you can do this or that then "I will confess that you can save yourself". Job was exalted and God abased him. Job thought because of all the good things he had done that God was well pleased with him. Aren't we the same way? We try to please God and man by our works. This has been since the beginning of time. Adam and Eve tried to cover their nakedness by their own works. They covered themselves in fig leaves, now you know what a big puff of wind would do for that? Cain and Able offered sacrifices, cain offered the works of his own hands which honored Cain, Able's sacrifice honored God. Able's sacrifice was a shadow of Christ. The same with Nebchudnezzer, the pharisees. It is mostly about works and our attitude and intentions of them.

There is a little bit of Job in all of us. We all have at one time or another lost one of the things Job lost. A family member, possessions of some sort, our health, pride. It is all just a learning experience. Job had never experienced what it was like to loose everything. I think what hurt Job the most was loosing his pride. This is what he complained about the most. Job was no longer looked up to in the streets, nor by friends or family. God humbled Job by these experiences, the same way he humbles us sometimes.

I think the bottom line is all of these examples show that we need God.  Isn't that what the whole Bible is about from beginning to end, our need for God?

CHB

QuoteThe fire just slipped out of His control, kind of like a bad fart.

:laughing7:

Tony--

Thank you for that study on satan a few posts up.

Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2009, 07:04:14 PM
Tony--

Thank you for that study on satan a few posts up.

You are welcome, Molly!  :icon_flower:

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


"righteousness"

G1343
δικαιοσύνη
dikaiosunē
dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.



G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).



Romans 8:30
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



[for they shall be] "filled"
G5526
χορτάζω
chortazō
khor-tad'-zo
From G5528; to fodder, that is, (genitive case) to gorge (supply food in abundance): - feed, fill, satisfy.


G5528
χόρτος
chortos
khor'-tos
Apparently a primary word; a "court" or "garden", that is, (by implication of pasture) herbage or vegetation: - blade, grass, hay.



John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

My computer time is a bit limited, as my wife is in the midst of doing our taxes...  :popout:

A quick reply to the beginning of your 2 part post to me...

Quote from: Tony N on February 11, 2009, 06:13:05 PM
Dear Willie, my question was very plain and very simple: If Satan is in our flesh, then how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get before God for God to have a discussion with their flesh? And how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get sent on a mission from God to destroy Job. How did the flesh bring forth the fire from heaven, the mighty wind to blow over the house the children were in, the robbing of all Job had?

How much simpler can I make it? The problem is this: The question above confronts your theology that Satan is in our flesh as being bad theology.

First, I do not claim "satan" (adversity) is exclusively in the flesh (carnal/natural state)  of man... IT is found also in the Creation that man had been given dominion over by YHVH, as well...

SIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

Quote from: Tony N on February 10, 2009, 07:27:05 PMSatan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

Quote from: willieHI am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

Gender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns.

Quote from: TonyNThat is incorrect, Willie. They do appear in Greek all the time. Here is a list of the pronouns in Greek:
(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/pronoun1.gif)

And the pronouns in Greek have gender to go with the noun they refer to:

(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/autxx.gif)

Tony, I stand corrected... at least about the existence of Greek pronouns... thats what I get for relying on a 63 year old memory (what was I thinking?  :wacko2:)... The pronouns do exist... but whether or not they indicate Gender is the question...

I will try to backtrack where I read this (and I KNOW that I have, for questions came up concerning pronouns before in other discussions), but (again relying on the "old" memory), as I recall, ...the very same Greek terms can be translated he, she IT, they, them, etc...

As I humbly said and again confirm, I am NOT a linguist, neither do I claim to be a scholar... As far as "bad theology"...

You must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...  :wink1:

peace bro...  :icon_king:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Willie stated:
You must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

QuoteSIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

But sin is never called "the adversary of man" in the Bible. So I am not beholden to have to believe that statement. The Bible however does say that death is an enemy. But what does this have to do with Job having Satan in his flesh? It doesn't.

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

QuoteMEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Maybe you missed my response but I stated this concerning your statement above just today:

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stones into bread:
Mat 4:3 "And, approaching, the trier said to Him, "If you are God's Son, say that these stones may be becoming cakes of bread."

The trier was not there and then the trier approached Him. Now then if the trier was already in Christ's flesh then how was it not with Him and then was with Him? If your scenario is true then words have no meaning.

Take care! And stay happy. Laugh alot. It is good for helping cure the cancer. P.S. I just read today that taking 1 tsp of  baking soda in a glass of water in the morning on an empty stomach alkalinizes the body making cancer impossible to be in such an environment.

Quote from: Molly on February 11, 2009, 09:16:42 PM
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

:cloud9: Just a short aside.....

Blessed are they which do hunger (the bread) and thirst (the wine) after righteousness (Christ) for they shall be filled......

Don't remember what thread it was in, but regarding the 2 cherubim you asked me about......

Moses/left/cold wind/apostle/Word/bread  

                      plus

Elijah/right/hot wind/prophet/Spirit/wine

                    equals

              The Son of glory

Just as it takes the joining of a hot and cold wind to produce a whirlwind, so too does it take the Word/bread and the Spirit/prophet to produce the mature full measure of the Son in our midst. This is why it says the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and the prophet. The joining of the two, eating of the bread and the wine in the light of the candlestick, is true communion, ie. the means by which we remember Him, or re-member/form His body. Paul said, how long must I stay with you until Christ be formed in you.

To commune with God, is to meet Him the way He said to meet Him, and He told us to meet Him in the cloud. This is the cloud of meeting, ie. the glory cloud between the two cherubim.

If two or more of you are gathered in my name/nature, there I AM in the midst of you. This is why God the Father spoke on the mount of transfiguration, THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED; HEAR YE HIM, because the pattern shown exposed the pattern of the Son in glory, with the two it was given to sit at His right and at his left. The Son that is produced from the eating of the bread with the wine, the Son of the revelation, is the Son that we are to hear.

He said to Peter's revelation that He was speaking to the Son of the living God (who disappeared/was translated into the CLOUD and His flesh was no more), that thou art  Peter, which means, "little rock". Well by definition, a piece of sand is a "little rock". A pearl is made by a "little rock" being covered upon; His Spirit which is love, covers a multitude of sins.

Paul said that he would not be uncovered, but rather covered upon, that corruption might be swallowed up of incorruption. And upon THIS ROCK (this revelation that we are as sand needing a covering), I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not stand against it. No wonder then, that the gates pf the city which is above, are pearls or that He is the pearl of great price. Blessings....

Bottom line IMO is, is I don't think God or Satan or the angels are anything like we think they are. And maybe they are everything like we think they are too.

Think about it, when we start using more of our brain we will see how ignorant our current beliefs are. It just makes sense. We are so in the dark on all these issues. It's like listening to toddlers talk of what makes a car run. Some can be so serious and fight for what they believe while others just speak from their imaginations.

I look at all our words here at Tentmaker and abroad and wonder what we will think of them in 1000 years. Will we laugh or cry?

cp

We might not be getting anywhere, but I think we are praising God with all our silly words.

At least he knows we care enough to do it.

So, we'll still be arguing [reasoning] but on a higher level.

Have to pass the time some way...:Sparkletooth:


When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Quote from: claypot on February 12, 2009, 03:46:28 AM
I look at all our words here at Tentmaker and abroad and wonder what we will think of them in 1000 years. Will we laugh or cry?

I was going to say we'll probably cry!  :sigh: but then thought better...

yeah, I plan on laughing.
:icon_flower: :happy3: :HeartThrob:  :happy3:

It wouldn't make sense to cry.
We do the best we can with what we have at the time.
Me thinks there will be laughter. (and relief!)

willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Jumping on when I can...  :cloud9:

You have avoided and danced all around what I asked you Tony... Do you stay up late at night and PRACTICE stubborness?  :laughing7:

Willie stated:

Quote from: willieHYou must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

Quote from: willieHSIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 01:22:37 AMBut sin is never called "the adversary of man" in the Bible.

You continue to throw up smoke screens of futility bro... And what about the PETER="the rock" +  PETER="SATAN" issue?  ...got an answer yet?  :dontknow:

For  :CryBaby: out loud Tony!

It doesn't matter that SIN is never specifically called "the adversary of man", Tony...   Paul plainly noted HIS adversary [Rom 7:17], which is that which is WARRING within HIS MEMBERS [Rom 7:23] against HIS mind (which is ALIGNED with the LAW) [Rom 7:20] and this is resultant because of HIS CONSENT that the LAW is HOLY, JUST and GOOD... [Rom 7:16]

Do you not WAR with an ENEMY Tony?

SIN is the transgression (or adversary) of the LAW which results IN DEATH!  ...consequently... SIN = Adversary of MAN... for it is the ENEMY which sends him to his DEATH... The WAGES of SIN is DEATH... Rom 6:23 -- DEATH occurs in WAR... War according to Paul is SIN occuring IN the MEMBERS... Rom 7:20 /Rom 7:23

:omg:  Do you think anyone or ANY THING which sends you to DEATH, is NOT also your enemy and/or adversary -- Tony?  :mshock:

Do you think that the soldiers in ANY war, do not consider the opposing country's soldiers, ...the ENEMY?  Do they consider those soldiers as ADVERSARIES?

Or is it just DEATH that might or might not result?  And even then at whose hands does that DEATH occur for them?  Their friends? Neighbors?  Or is it the truth their death might indeed occur at the hand of their (must I repeat the "E-word"?)... yes, ...at the hand of their ENEMY?

Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 01:22:37 AMSo I am not beholden to have to believe that statement. The Bible however does say that death is an enemy. But what does this have to do with Job having Satan in his flesh? It doesn't.

More ridiculous standpoints... If DEATH is resultant from SIN.. the SIN is equated as an ENEMY (toward us) which manifests DEATH...

DEATH would not even BE an ENEMY if it were not for SIN... so SIN is the actually ENEMY which eventually leads us to the other...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

Quote from: willieHMEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Quote from: TonyNMaybe you missed my response but I stated this concerning your statement above just today:

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stones into bread:

More irrelevant sarcasm at an obvious mistake of mine... :rolleye: which doesnt address the point...

:laugh:   But in Actuality, that IS a pretty darn good laugh at my expense, Tony... can I join in?   :laughhand:

The biggest difference between us brother, is that I am able to, and DO admit my errors, and really DO wish to find correction, even though at times it is difficult to do so...

You on the other hand bro... avoid addressing the subjects... and in that, ...erect sarcastic strawmen (turning "loaves" into bread  :laughing7:) and smokescreens (subtly proposing SIN as NON ADVERSARIAL to man) ...in the which you are in hopes that these shall adaquately distract the convo, to spare you from addressing the flaws within your current observations...

It remains to be seen if you shall figure out with your "satan" as a being THEOLOGY" (which notes Peter as a two-fold entity, ...(1) "satan" [Matt 16:23], and at the same time, ...(2) the rock upon which CHRIST would build His Church" [Matt 16:17]... both unveiled in the same CONTEXT...  :mshock:) ...How these TWO can both be simultaneously true...  :wacko2:

peace bro...  :icon_king:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6)

Some argue that the Satan in Job is to be interpreted as referring to a supernatural being of evil, which they themselves believe.

Many today agree with this conclusion, that is, there is a supernatural evil being whose role it is to tempt mankind to sin. Be careful that you do not entertain this thought in it's entirety,  as:

"The evil imagination is the personification of sin; undoubtedly, the natural inclination in all men."

This appears to be what Willie was saying, to me!

By what means is the temptation carried out by Satan, that is distinguished from the temptations prompted by one's own heart, or that of others?

There is nothing in the Scriptures which indicates that the heart of man requires an external prompting to do evil.

Events outside of human control, like all natural disasters; volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, floods, tornados, hurricanes, lightening and thunder – sometime affect people by chance. And, sometimes it's an act of God, himself!

Job did not consider, himself – to have been touched by the hand of a supernatural evil being called Satan. Rather, he said; "Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, for the hand of God has touched me!"  (Job 19:21)

When faced with difficulties, do you say to yourself, or perhaps, to others – for it is written!

peacemaker

The writer of Job also says it was God that brought all the evil upon Job:

Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house. Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.

So even though Satan went forth from God's presence and brought the Sabeans against Job and he also smote Job with evil boils etc. the buck stopped with God. God did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

 :cloud9: What Job feared most came upon him. What Job feared most was GOD and the dealings of God are what came upon him. But his experience is the pattern for the double portion, for Job received double. Blessings...

Proverbs 8

1 Does not wisdom call out?
      Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
      where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates leading into the city,
      at the entrances, she cries aloud:

4 "To you, O men, I call out;
      I raise my voice to all mankind.

Making wisdom a women which speaks, stands, walks, hates, and give birth isn't any different than making adversity an Adversary which talks and makes whirlwinds and moves tribes and enters Judas and becomes Peter. Adversity is within and without.

God says to Adversity: consider Job.

Adversity replies to God: He serves you because you won't let me at him.

God says: I will remove my protection.

Adversity says: I will get him.

QuoteGod did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

Yes, God is in control of adversity.

Dear Sarah, thanks for the thoughts.

Adversity:
H6869
???
tsarah
tsaw-raw'
Feminine of H6862; tightness (that is, figuratively trouble); transitively a female rival: - adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: ad·ver·si·ty 
Pronunciation: \ad-vər-sə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·si·ties
Date: 13th century
: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune

H6882צרעתי    צרעי
tsâr‛îy  tsâr‛âthîy
tsor-ee', tsor-aw-thee'
Patrial from H6881; a Tsorite or Tsorathite, that is, inhabitant of Tsorah: - Zorites, Zareathites, Zorathites.

H7854
satan
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: 1ad·ver·sary 
Pronunciation: \ad-və(r)-ser-ē, -se-rē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·sar·ies
Date: 14th century
: one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy
— ad·ver·sari·ness noun

As one can see, adversity is not the same as Adversary.

Adversity did not come before God in Job's day.  Satan came before God.

Satan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

So there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 04:34:59 PM
Satan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

So there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

... And he showed me, Joshua the high priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh,—and, an adversary, standing at his right hand, to accuse him ...

That's right! As there is no definite article preceding "the" Hebrew word "satan."

Just an observation  :dbook:

peacemaker

The Septuagint (LXX) has the definite article. The definite article is not used nearly as much in Hebrew as it is in Greek. Not having the article in Hebrew does not prove/disprove anything.

(Bishops)  And he shewed me Iosua the hie priest standing before the angell of the Lord, and Satan stoode at his right hande to resist him.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

(Darby)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

(KJV)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

(KJV+)  And he showed7200 me (853) Joshua3091 the high1419 priest3548 standing5975 before6440 the angel4397 of the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 standing5975 at5921 his right hand3225 to resist7853 him.

(LITV)  And he made me see Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

(LXX)  Καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι Ἰησοῦν τὸν ἱερέα τὸν μέγαν ἑστῶτα πρὸ προσώπου ἀγγέλου κυρίου, καὶ ὁ διάβολος εἱστήκει ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ τοῦ ἀντικεῖσθαι αὐτῷ.

(RV)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.

(YLT)  And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him.

Quote from: Tony N on February 13, 2009, 03:09:50 AM
The definite article is not used nearly as much in Hebrew as it is in Greek. Not having the article in Hebrew does not prove/disprove anything.

You can easily unsubscribe at any time, as:

"A place of warmth, comfort, and affection is, also, called Home."

Having "the" article does not prove a thing, but it does matter what is in the house!

peacemaker

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 02:17:20 PM
The writer of Job also says it was God that brought all the evil upon Job:

Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house. Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.

So even though Satan went forth from God's presence and brought the Sabeans against Job and he also smote Job with evil boils etc. the buck stopped with God. God did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

Tony... God is SOVEREIGN... all that takes place is as HE DECLARED it would... nothing good OR evil, has ever taken place which He did not ordain by that DECLARATION to be so...

When GOD Declares... He uses HIS WORD... His WORD speaks nothing but TRUTH... When men walk the earth, their lives are already KNOWN and DECLARED... therefore... no matter how you or I might view the subject of "satan" ...it is as DECLARED...

People wish to demote and reduce the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of God, as if He is just "informed" of what is to be because He can "see ahead" in time what will happen... such is quite short of truth...

That GOD has a FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL EVENTS before they OCCUR, means that they CANNOT manifest otherwise.  If they should, then HIS "foreknowledge" is WRONG, and there is IMPERFECTION thereby, found IN HIM...

So ALL events that occur in the Heavens and earth, are according TO His Foreknowledge... those events as they occur, do not dicatate WHAT His FOREKNOWLEDGE, ...IS... His FOREKNOWLEDGE dictates what events shall occur...

"satan" (Adversity/adversary) is as UNDER the CONTROL of GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE as are ALL other THINGS...

"satan" (whether observed as a PRINCIPALITY or a BEING), is something which GOD brought forth... and manifests according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD...

Okay Tony... S___ or get off the pot...  :laughing7:  Answer me brother!

You continue to avoid explaining your "satan -- as a being THEOLOGY", concerning Peter...

JESUS CHRIST Himself noted:

...(1) Peter as "satan" [Matt 16:23], and on the same occasion,
...(2) Peter as the "rock upon which He would build His Church" [Matt 16:17]...

Both these (within minutes) were spoken in the same CONTEXT on the SAME OCCASION...  :mshock:) ...

How can these TWO, ...both be simultaneously true of "Peter" Tony? ...  :wacko2:

One holds Peter as the "father of LIES"...

One holds Peter as the "foundational rock" upon which TRUTH is established...

peace bro...  :icon_king:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

willieH:  Howdy pod-na!   :happygrin:

Quote from: Tony N on February 12, 2009, 04:34:59 PM
Main Entry: ad·ver·si·ty 
Pronunciation: \ad-vər-sə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·si·ties
Date: 13th century
: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune

H6882צרעתי    צרעי
tsâr‛îy  tsâr‛âthîy
tsor-ee', tsor-aw-thee'
Patrial from H6881; a Tsorite or Tsorathite, that is, inhabitant of Tsorah: - Zorites, Zareathites, Zorathites.

H7854
satan
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: 1ad·ver·sary 
Pronunciation: \ad-və(r)-ser-ē, -se-rē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·sar·ies
Date: 14th century
: one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy
— ad·ver·sari·ness noun

As one can see, adversity is not the same as Adversary.

:laughing7: :laugh:  Please Tony!

ADVERSITY is that which proceeds FROM an ADVERSARY!

That which proceeds from an ADVERSARY is ...ADVERSITY!  :mshock: :thumbsup:

These terms are INTERCHANGEABLE and BY NECESSITY ...EVER connected... as much as  WOOD & WOODEN... or METALLIC METAL...  :laughing7:

Words can be an exercise in futility, if OPINION is held in higher esteem than TRUTH...

How far NORTH can you go on the earth, before you are heading SOUTH?  :laughing7:

How is it that you can GO WEST and end up in the EAST?  :happy3:

If you can go NORTH enough to be heading SOUTH, is SOUTH thereby NORTH of itself?

How SMALL is truly SMALL or, how LARGE is actually LARGE?

Words can be spoken into such ridiculous sentences that they can sound nonsensical... and yet bear TRUTH...  Because it is a FACT that I CAN head West and eventually end up in the East...  :Whistle:

Quote from: TonyNAdversity did not come before God in Job's day.  Satan came before God.

This is even more ridiculous bro... The boils, losses of family, possessions, etc are evidences of ADVERSITY which was brought upon JOB by that which was ADVERSE... that which is ADVERSE, is an ADVERSARY.

Quote from: TonyNSatan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

How many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet"  :laughing7:

Quote from: TonyNSo there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

Again Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY...  :grin:

GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

And ADVERSITY can find GOD as "ADVERSE", for it stands in OPPOSITION to GOD...  :dontknow:

It's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Willie, Satan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

QuoteSatan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

I think Willie was saying that God was the adversary of adversity.


Satan is also accuser which is more applicable to Zechariah 3. It seems Joshua was in filthy clothes and therefore satan was accusing him of not being worthy to complete the task set before him. This sounds very familiar. This in my opinion is the most 'beingness' one can get with satan. It is certainly a spirit that comes against the mind of man. But it is also this attribute that makes me think satan can't be an individual being because all men face this 'accuser of the brethern'. I have lived with this for many years in my youth, and even today this will attack at times. If this is the Satan, well then he's spending an awful lot of time on me.

Howdy Willie,

Just because adversity proceeds from the Adversary does not mean in Job 1:6 that adversity came before God.

Job 1:6 There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary" (Zec.3:1).

The above verse shows that adversity was not staning at his right but Satan was and that Satan was his adversary.

QuoteHow many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet" 

I think Satan only has one leg to stand on. This is because when he was bruised by the heel of Christ gangreen set in and his leg had to be amputated in the hospital in hell.  :laughing7:

In the Concordant Version The Hebrew AMAD is translated:
to-stand 3x
he-stands 9x
he-stayed 4x
he-stays 2x
he-stood 8x
stand! 8x
standing 43x
stay! 1x

The point is that some here say Satan is a concept, not a being. But Zechariah 3:1 dispells that notion because Satan is standing next to a person and is that person's adversary.

QuoteAgain Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY... 
GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

Where in the bible does it say that God is the Adversary of adversity?

And even if there is a verse (which I doubt) what would that have to do with the fact that in Zechariah 3:1 that Satan is standing next to Joshua as his adversary, that this has to do with God being an Adversary to adversity? Nothing. So why bring it up? It just muddies up the water.

QuoteIt's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...

I'm not into numbnut word games.

Adversary and adversity is not one and the same thing.

Adversity: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune
Adversary:  one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy

I am so thankful for a God who can even turn the frustrations and anger of people into good.

cp

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 13, 2009, 02:10:14 PM
Willie, Satan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

First bro, I do not maintain that "satan" is a defined person or being, rather is a position in opposition to another position.

I did not say that "satan" was the adversary of adversity... I said the word means the same thing...  That which is adverse is an adversary... And in the sense of HOLINESS, that GOD is the Adversary of UNHOLINESS and vice-versa.

This is the whole point bro... "satan" is a word which describes and ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY, irregardless of position, and is not a particular "being" rather it is a position in regards to another position which is in OPPOSITION...



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

willieH:  Hello there, ...brother T!   :happygrin:

Quote from: Tony N on February 13, 2009, 05:58:03 PM
Howdy Willie,

Just because adversity proceeds from the Adversary does not mean in Job 1:6 that adversity came before God.

Job 1:6 There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary" (Zec.3:1).

The above verse shows that adversity was not staning at his right but Satan was and that Satan was his adversary.

QuoteHow many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet" 

I think Satan only has one leg to stand on. This is because when he was bruised by the heel of Christ gangreen set in and his leg had to be amputated in the hospital in hell.  :laughing7:

In the Concordant Version The Hebrew AMAD is translated:
to-stand 3x
he-stands 9x
he-stayed 4x
he-stays 2x
he-stood 8x
stand! 8x
standing 43x
stay! 1x

The point is that some here say Satan is a concept, not a being. But Zechariah 3:1 dispells that notion because Satan is standing next to a person and is that person's adversary.

QuoteAgain Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY... 
GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

Where in the bible does it say that God is the Adversary of adversity?

And even if there is a verse (which I doubt) what would that have to do with the fact that in Zechariah 3:1 that Satan is standing next to Joshua as his adversary, that this has to do with God being an Adversary to adversity? Nothing. So why bring it up? It just muddies up the water.

QuoteIt's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...

I'm not into numbnut word games.

Adversary and adversity is not one and the same thing.

Adversity: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune
Adversary:  one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy

The AMERICAN FLAG "stands" for FREEDOM... which "LEG" does it use Tony?  :laugh:

An enemy is that which presents itself as an ADVERSARY to another, ...which, to the ONE to which the ADVERSARY has presented itself, is thereby facing the ADVERSITY which this particular "ADVERSARY" represents...  :thumbsup:

As I said... "satan" is a positional word describing a position that one is in... not a "person" on a necessarily negative assignment...  :laughing7:

Believe what you will bro... as with any TRUTH of Scripture such as UR, no amount of back & forth can reveal to the other...  We can both argue till we are both blue in the face, and nothing shall change (and btw... we are ADVERSARIES, presenting ADVERSE positions, which when defined are in ADVERSITY to the other!  :laughing7:)

I really have no problem with your belief of "satan" as a being (illogical as it is)...  :grin:

You really are saying in a nutshell -- that 2 words which are inseparably "connected at the hip" are not not definitions of each other, ...much as people argue that they wish to DISCUSS and not DEBATE... both these words define the other...

I aint gettin any younger brother T... are you going to answer my question about Peter in regards to "your belief" of "satan" or not?  :dontknow:

How was he both "satan" (father of lies) and "the rock" (foundation upon which TRUTH is placed)? ? ? ? ?

Guess you just don't have an answer -- eh?  :dunno:

peACe...  :cloud9:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Quote from: willieH on February 13, 2009, 07:16:04 PM

Quote
You really are saying in a nutshell -- that 2 words which are inseparably "connected at the hip" are not not definitions of each other, ...much as people argue that they wish to DISCUSS and not DEBATE... both these words define the other...

A concept did not stand beside Joshua in Zechariah 3:1.

QuoteI aint gettin any younger brother T... are you going to answer my question about Peter in regards to "your belief" of "satan" or not?  :dontknow:

How was he both "satan" (father of lies) and "the rock" (foundation upon which TRUTH is placed)? ? ? ? ?

Guess you just don't have an answer -- eh?  :dunno:

I already did answer. Suppose you read back through the posts and find it.

A human adversary, is the diabolos of man or an inordinate desire of the flesh that causes people to commit that which is unrighteous – sin.

The word also signifies to traduce, slander, is libel, to falsely accuse. Thus, Judas is characterized, or described – as having a devil enter him – because of his betrayal when he handed Jesus over to the unscrupulous authorities; the adversary!

The faithful are warned that "the devil shall cast some of you into prison."

We can learn from Deuteronomy that when a person appeared before a priest (in hierarchical churches) he appeared before the Lord; a representative on earth. Because, God was with the priest in the judgment.

He said to the judges, "Consider what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for the LORD who is with you when you render judgment." (2 Chronicles 19:6)

"...then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days." (Deuteronomy 19:17)

Why not apply the same principle of interpretation to Job (1:6).  A principle that is consistent with other portions of Scripture. When that is done, the whole story line is understood, as taking place on earth before God.

In order to justify the orthodox hell, you will have to believe in demons, devils and that of Satan from their perspective.
But this is Idolatry, unless you are able to "withstand" or resist the temptation, as a righteous adversary! :declare:

peacemaker

Quote from: peacemaker on February 14, 2009, 05:01:50 AM

In order to justify the orthodox hell, you will have to believe in demons, devils and that of Satan from their perspective.
But this is Idolatry, unless you are able to "withstand" or resist the temptation, as a righteous adversary! :declare:

peacemaker

Thanks for the nice thoughts peacemaker. May I say something though without causing any upset?
I believe there really is a being God created named Satan. I also believe that Jesus cast out demons who could talk with Jesus. I don't believe in hell. So I guess I'm not trying to justify an orthodox hell by believing in these beings.

If it is idolitry, is Jesus an idoliter for He spoke with Satan and spoke with demons in people. Neither am I an idolitor.

John the revelator saw Satan being locked up in the submerged chaos also called the abyss. Later on, when the 1000 years is ending it is stated that Satan will be loosed out of that abyss and he will gather the nations against the holy city.

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

You would not say "who is the adversary and adversary." Neither did John think this being was "adversity." He saw him as a being.

While he is locked up the nations that mistreated Christ's brothers will enter into eonian chastening (Matt.25:31-46) so we know there will still be nations who are adversarial while Satan is locked up. So we know Satan is not locked up in people's flesh and then let out later.

So to sum up this post:
Jesus spoke with Satan, spoke with demons and cast demons out of people. Satan really did enter Judas and made Judas give up Jesus. Satan was not in Judas before he entered Judas so Satan is not in everyone's flesh (not that you believe that but there are people on these boards who do).

I don't think you are better than me just because you don't agree with me.  :icon_joker:

Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.


Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Quote from: Zeek on February 14, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.


Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Hi zeek, I'm not sure "tempt" is a good word. For instance how could Christ be tempted with a question by the Pharisees? The Concordant Literal has "tried" in both verses above.

But are you trying to say that since Jesus was tried by the Adversary in Matthew 4:1 and later tried by the Pharisees that therefore the Pharisees are the Adversary or Satan if you will?

That would be kind of like saying that since Joseph is used in the Old Testament and used in the New of Jesus's father that therefore they are one and the same person.

peace bro!

:HeartThrob: :boyheart: Happy Valentine's Day!  :boyheart: :HeartThrob:

  to the Pharisees he addressed ' ye offspring of vipers....

  ye are of your father the devil" thus, he showed they were of

 the seed of the serpent..even demonic

 utterances....furthermore ...he declared him[this seed] as a

 murderer and mankiller from the beginning..

   God walks in the earth[His spirit comes in the flesh of man]

   [the earth is His footstool of His throne]his spirit in man

  and satan declared he had been walking about in the earth

  his demonic spirit does the same.


  Jesus gave us the parable to show us...the wheat and tares

  seed sown in the earth[flesh] of man......

    mystery of godliness and mystery of lawlessness.

  the law was written against the lawless[evil seed] and it is to

    their condemnation....the wheat will be gathered into

  the barn or storehouses of heaven.  the end of the world is

  the reaping.  On every man's last day of life...this evil seed is

  seperated from the wheat [sheep from goats].


 soon all the world is due to be reaped


 now, that there is some confusion as to the identity of this

 evil seed...that is apparent.  it's close association to the

 outward manifestation of sin in man's flesh has led many to

 judge by appearances and judge before the appointed time.

  as to certain of makind to be the evil seed...but to you

 who may think this..I say...remember Adam is a son of God

 that is man[ that was overcome by the demonic] and that

 Jesus Christ..as the firstborn from the dead..is a son of God

 a holy seed that has OVERCOME THE DEMONIC SEED IN THE

  EARTH.....and all the SONS OF GOD are victorious.

  [this also prophesied in Gen ,serpent seed bruise the heel,

  that is God's heel[footstool on earth of God's

   throne=mankinds flesh/ holy seed bruise head of serpents

  seed/demonic mind to kill mankind/seize God's throne

  thwarted/mankind inherit Heavenly Kingdom]


......the saints were overcome..then the Court sat[God's

judgement] and the KINGDOM WAS GIVEN UNTO THE SAINTS


    this is the inheritance of the spiritual eternal life Kingdom

  of God./Heaven...that was seemingly lost...when man was

overcome by satan


   

Hi Shiela,
Thanks for your thoughts on this!

You are so right that Jesus said they were of their father the Adversary (John 8:44).

I like your thoughts on this topic.

Just thinking out loud here and not necessarily meant for you or anything you wrote:

Did Satan literally impregnate the Pharisees mothers? No.
They were of their father by the deeds they did. He was a liar and murderer from the beginning. So were they murderers and liars.

Did God impregnate our mothers and thus we become children of God? No.

Do we become sons of God by receiving His word into our lives? His words concerning the death of His son for all?

Did the Pharisess become sons of the Adversary by receiving his words into their lives? Words of hate and murder?

The Pharisees certainly knew the Scriptures and the law yet they did the opposite of what the law demanded. Rather than lighten the loads of people they put heavy loads on them.

Jesus, on the other hand, took their loads on Himself.

Anyway, just my thoughts as I sit here in an old mill on my laptop listening to peaceful music.

Love,

Tony

Thanks for the nice thoughts peacemaker.  You are most welcome, Tony. May I say something though without causing any upset? Sure, that's your choice, and it will have no effect on the soundness of my mind or the condition of my heart; mentally or emotionally.

I believe there really is a being God created named Satan. I know you do. I also believe that Jesus cast out demons who could talk with Jesus. No doubt, again, your choice. I don't believe in hell. That's good, however, a half-truth can be worse than a whole lie. So I guess I'm not trying to justify an orthodox hell by believing in these beings. If you say so, but they usually go, together.

If it is idolatry, is Jesus an idolater for He spoke with Satan and spoke with demons in people. It was the person, themselves, who spoke. Neither am I an idolater. Immoderately or without knowledge, not to be offensive or to upset you?

John the revelator saw Satan being locked up in the submerged chaos also called the abyss. Later on, when the 1000 years is ending it is stated that Satan will be loosed out of that abyss and he will gather the nations against the holy city. As you see it.

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

You would not say "who is the adversary and adversary." Neither did John think this being was "adversity." He saw him as a being. Nor would you say "who is the Satan and Satan?"

But one could say "who is the accuser and adversary?" or "who is the adversary and deceiver?" Indeed, two different meanings. And John saw him (Satan) as a being? This appears to be based on your belief?

While he is locked up the nations that mistreated Christ's brothers will enter into eonian (age-abiding) chastening (Matt.25:31-46) so we know there will still be nations who are adversarial while Satan is locked up. So we know Satan is not locked up in people's flesh and then let out later. And the whole earth will learn righteousness. No more fables having the inclination of men.

So to sum up this post:

Jesus spoke with Satan, spoke with demons and cast demons out of people. Yes, this is what you believe. Satan really did enter Judas and made Judas give up Jesus. Again, what you believe. Satan was not in Judas before he entered Judas so Satan is not in everyone's flesh (not that you believe that but there are people on these boards who do). True to a certain point, but Judas did not have the mind of Christ, either.

I don't think you are better than me just because you don't agree with me. This has never crossed over into my mind. And in the same vein, you are no worse than any other – for all have sinned. But ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era.

peacemaker

I also believe God will save all mankind. But, hey, I'm probably wrong on that too.

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
I also believe God will save all mankind. But, hey, I'm probably wrong on that too.

Right on, Tony!  :high5:

peacemaker

Quote from: Zeek on February 14, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.


Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Hey Zeek. I have often been led into what seemed like a wilderness place in my life and when there I know I have been tempted or tried by the devil. It is a very conflicting situation and devilish. My own nasty thoughts, almost pharisaical in so many ways, came up in my mind. I often struggle in my mind whether I am worshipping God with all my heart or am taking the physcal, more carnal, road. This almost seems like what God might be saying to us when writing about Pharisees tempting The Divine (Jesus) with law questions. I see this so clear as what is taking place within my very being so often in my life. To see how Jesus handles such situations also is, not only Good News, but it is Great News to me as it helps me handle lifes situations daily. Praise Him who knows how to communicate truth that helps right now for those who have ears to hear.

cp

Quote from: peacemaker on February 14, 2009, 08:11:12 PM
Thanks for the nice thoughts peacemaker.  You are most welcome, Tony. May I say something though without causing any upset? Sure, that's your choice, and it will have no effect on the soundness of my mind or the condition of my heart; mentally or emotionally.

I believe there really is a being God created named Satan. I know you do. I also believe that Jesus cast out demons who could talk with Jesus. No doubt, again, your choice. I don't believe in hell. That's good, however, a half-truth can be worse than a whole lie. So I guess I'm not trying to justify an orthodox hell by believing in these beings. If you say so, but they usually go, together.

If it is idolatry, is Jesus an idolater for He spoke with Satan and spoke with demons in people. It was the person, themselves, who spoke. Neither am I an idolater. Immoderately or without knowledge, not to be offensive or to upset you?

John the revelator saw Satan being locked up in the submerged chaos also called the abyss. Later on, when the 1000 years is ending it is stated that Satan will be loosed out of that abyss and he will gather the nations against the holy city. As you see it.

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

You would not say "who is the adversary and adversary." Neither did John think this being was "adversity." He saw him as a being. Nor would you say "who is the Satan and Satan?"

But one could say "who is the accuser and adversary?" or "who is the adversary and deceiver?" Indeed, two different meanings. And John saw him (Satan) as a being? This appears to be based on your belief?

While he is locked up the nations that mistreated Christ's brothers will enter into eonian (age-abiding) chastening (Matt.25:31-46) so we know there will still be nations who are adversarial while Satan is locked up. So we know Satan is not locked up in people's flesh and then let out later. And the whole earth will learn righteousness. No more fables having the inclination of men.

So to sum up this post:

Jesus spoke with Satan, spoke with demons and cast demons out of people. Yes, this is what you believe. Satan really did enter Judas and made Judas give up Jesus. Again, what you believe. Satan was not in Judas before he entered Judas so Satan is not in everyone's flesh (not that you believe that but there are people on these boards who do). True to a certain point, but Judas did not have the mind of Christ, either.

I don't think you are better than me just because you don't agree with me. This has never crossed over into my mind. And in the same vein, you are no worse than any other – for all have sinned. But ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era.

peacemaker

Great balance PM.

cp

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

I finally found your "answer" (if you really wish to call it that), with no help from you...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: willieHAnd I -- you, ...Tony!  Is PETER ..."satan" Tony?  CHRIST ADDRESSED Peter as such!  And just before He named PETER as "satan", CHRIST noted that He would BUILD his CHURCH upon Peter's/satan's ministry!  Is that what you think Tony? Be forthright now, brother... and, face your own THEOLOGY!

:laugh: is this a "cake & eat it too" answer, or what?

Before I begin, might I say that any TRUTH which is proposed, will almost ALWAYS recieve OPPOSITION from the majority...  Which is WHY ...UR... is opposed.  It in essence, makes the MAJORITY incorrect... and thereby riles the MAJORITY and the MAJORITY rises to defend its TRADITION... with NUMBERS to back that defense, instead of standing in the desire to be NEUTRAL and continue to LEARN...

It is very interesting, that GOD has placed both TRUTH and ADVERSITY to be proveable with His WORD... giving place to TRADITION (surface understanding) and only revealing the TRUTH to those who fervently DIG for it... and in HUMILITY, forsake their TRADITION when that TRUTH is presented... (and even then, only in due course at His choosing do they become "revealed")...

I have seen a few, very FEW... do this along the way... MOST will fight tooth & nail for their beliefs which are shared by BILLIONS... and use these IMMENSE numbers as a proof they are correct, when CHRIST noted that upon His "return" that TRUE FAITH would be literally invisible amidst that IMMENSE number which claims to have it... (Luke 18:8)

Quote from: TonyNTony's reply:
Satan in the N.T. can either be an adversary or THE Adversary.

What a crock!  On what authority do you establish THIS bogus claim?  :dontknow:

You are (no offense) more than a bit stubborn bro... You are in a corner and in order to exit that corner, you use doubletalk (AN adversary/THE adversary -- Adversity and Adversary are 2 different things, etc.) instead of admit that your thinking can possibly have flaws...  :sigh:

"satan" all of a sudden,  simply because it was CHRIST which in fact, addressed PETER directly as "satan", is thereby (in order to facilitate "your theology") "AN adversary" and not "THE adversary"??   :laughing7:  Please!

The only references that I can find noting "THE adversary", do not use the word "satan"...  :dontknow:

Otherwise, your doubletalk -- "THE adversary", is for your own benefit, used in order to withhold potential correction of potentially flawed thinking...

If one says of an enemy (country) which proposes war: Our ADVERSARY threatens our country.   They are indeed speaking of another COLLECTIVE entity (country), not a Particular person which threatens them...

CHRIST did not speak lightly here to PETER... He sternly  CHIDED him... DIRECTLY after stating that PETER would be an instrument in the establishment of HIS church, by HANDING him the KEYS to the KINGDOM of HEAVEN!  ...

Quote from: TonyNPeter, at the time he was telling Christ not to go to the cross was adversarial to His goal. Christ was not implying that Peter was Satan in the flesh.

That is because there "is" no "satan" in the flesh as a being... ADVERSITY is proposed by an OPPOSING thought or action Tony... it has no GENDER, and has no sentience of its own, no more that laughter is a being which THINKS to come out of us when we hear a good joke.

The facts ARE:  Peter was IN FLESH and was CALLED by CHRIST, ...satan... You, in your continuing and PURPOSED avoidance of these FACTS, note that there was or WAS NOT, ...UNSTATED IMPLICATION is an addtion to what CHRIST PLAINLY said...  He ADDRESSED Peter as "satan" and then defined the "satan" that he was...

Matt 16:23  but He turned and SAID UNTO PETER:  Get THEE behind Me, ...satan, --- THOU, ART an offense unto Me for THOU savorest NOT, the things that BE of GOD, but those that be of MEN.

CHRIST was not "implying" anything!  He FLAT OUT called PETER, ..."satan"!  And that PETER, in his present state was about CARNAL understanding which amounts to LIES... and was SAVORING this understanding as HIS OWN... rather than the SPIRITUAL Words which CHRIST spoke... CHRIST was OFFENDED... for LIES ...OFFEND the TRUTH...

YOU cannot see this at this time, because it is not yet your time to SEE IT...  :sigh:  It is GOD's choosing when and IF, you shall know it...

There IS NO such thing as "satan in the flesh" Tony... THIS, is my point!  "satan" has no existence as a being, rather is a PRINCIPALITY or POWER, which exists to be ADVERSITY in this world TO MAN, in the various ways it WAS NOT before ADAM fell to IT's INFLUENCE and manifestations by submitting to IT's LIES...

Anyone and anything ADVERSARIAL is "satan"... in this case PETER's words, were ADVERSARIAL to the mission of CHRIST...

The word "satan" as used by CHRIST in Matt 16:23 is followed by (after naming Peter this), ..."THOU ART"...   Who "art" Tony?  ...Peter/satan, ..."art", ...bro!

Plain & simple... no need to dance around it...

Quote from: TonyNChrist did not say He would build His church on Peter's ministry but upon the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

In order to keep yourself convinced that your "theology" is correct, not only do you deny that CHRIST named Peter as "satan" and qualify it to fit your beliefs, but you also deny that CHRIST in this text, is naming Peter a foundational element (rock) upon which He shall build His Church...

This just amounts to more convenient self-erected, theology... CHRIST, after naming PETER a "rock", noted that He would hand over the KEYS of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN to him... This is stating that PETER himself, would have the KEYS with which to UNLOCK the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, and thereby be an ESSENTIAL and FOUNDATIONAL "rock" upon which MEN would be used to garner other men, according to the PURPOSE of GOD ...IN MEN... while in the Earthly/Evil realm of TIME...

CHRIST was most certainly noting that the ministry of the Kindom of HEAVEN, and its foundation was being placed in the hands of PETER... even though you percieve differently... by arguing with the statements plainly made to Peter by JESUS here, in order to rid yourself of the other problem which noted "satan" as being within Peter as well...

He had just proclaimed that PETER's knowledge which had just AFFIRMED CHRIST's position was NOT revealed by man, but by the SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD... and then BLESSED Peter... by saying the FATHER had revealed this to him...

Then just scant moments later, JESUS turns around to Peter and PLAINLY call him "satan"... with a "thou art" to follow his notation, which removes any doubt that PETER is this!

YOU are too stubborn to see it... making excuses, instead of submitting to correction...

I said it before bro, and will repeat it here... the biggest difference between us is that I am ABLE to admit error and have ALREADY DONE SO in this conversation, ...TO YOU!   You have plainly displayed that you have yet to gain this humility... and there is a high probability that such humility is part of  the purpose GOD has for BOTH of us in this convo...   :dontknow:

I would like to say a word or two about Masculinity and Femininity as it appears in foreign language... as I said before (and continue to maintain), I am NOT a linguist, however, ...I did not say that I am ignorant of foreign language... nor how it works in a different sense than English...

I also said I am NOT a scholar, but did NOT say that I am ignorant of KNOWLEDGE which they "claim to have" due to SCHOLARSHIP... I believe SPIRITUAL understanding is NOT by necessity, connected with Biblical, Greek or Hebrew SCHOLARSHIP...

It alone, is REVELATION by GOD, which can occur even in a child, with NO "SCHOLARSHIP" whatsoever in the categories I just named...

I did study Spanish for a time, and there are factual things concerning Masculinity and Femininity which appear in the course of language of which I AM aware...

For example... words such as the "SKY" in Spanish (el "Cielo"), is referenced in the Masculine form (the form of "el" [the] preceeding the use of the word and the word itself ending in "o" dictate  the word as Masc.), but the "SKY" has NO GENDER whatsoever, it is NEITHER Male nor Female nor is it particularly Masculine OR Feminine...

Also... words such as COCKROACH in Spanish (La Cucharacha) is referenced in the Feminine (the form of "la" [the] preceeding the word, and the word itself ending in "a" dictate the word as  Fem.), even though there are both MALE and FEMALE COCKROACHES...

That a word in foreign language has a Masculine observation does NOT indicate that the WORD means the thing noted is MALE/Masculine... same applies with the FEMALE/Feminine...  :dontknow:

peace bro...  :icon_king:



:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

Quote from: claypot on February 14, 2009, 09:23:29 PM

Quote from: peacemaker on February 14, 2009, 08:11:12 PM
Thanks for the nice thoughts peacemaker.  You are most welcome, Tony. May I say something though without causing any upset? Sure, that's your choice, and it will have no effect on the soundness of my mind or the condition of my heart; mentally or emotionally.

I believe there really is a being God created named Satan. I know you do. I also believe that Jesus cast out demons who could talk with Jesus. No doubt, again, your choice. I don't believe in hell. That's good, however, a half-truth can be worse than a whole lie. So I guess I'm not trying to justify an orthodox hell by believing in these beings. If you say so, but they usually go, together.

If it is idolatry, is Jesus an idolater for He spoke with Satan and spoke with demons in people. It was the person, themselves, who spoke. Neither am I an idolater. Immoderately or without knowledge, not to be offensive or to upset you?

John the revelator saw Satan being locked up in the submerged chaos also called the abyss. Later on, when the 1000 years is ending it is stated that Satan will be loosed out of that abyss and he will gather the nations against the holy city. As you see it.

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

You would not say "who is the adversary and adversary." Neither did John think this being was "adversity." He saw him as a being. Nor would you say "who is the Satan and Satan?"

But one could say "who is the accuser and adversary?" or "who is the adversary and deceiver?" Indeed, two different meanings. And John saw him (Satan) as a being? This appears to be based on your belief?

While he is locked up the nations that mistreated Christ's brothers will enter into eonian (age-abiding) chastening (Matt.25:31-46) so we know there will still be nations who are adversarial while Satan is locked up. So we know Satan is not locked up in people's flesh and then let out later. And the whole earth will learn righteousness. No more fables having the inclination of men.

So to sum up this post:

Jesus spoke with Satan, spoke with demons and cast demons out of people. Yes, this is what you believe. Satan really did enter Judas and made Judas give up Jesus. Again, what you believe. Satan was not in Judas before he entered Judas so Satan is not in everyone's flesh (not that you believe that but there are people on these boards who do). True to a certain point, but Judas did not have the mind of Christ, either.

I don't think you are better than me just because you don't agree with me. This has never crossed over into my mind. And in the same vein, you are no worse than any other – for all have sinned. But ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth, each in their own era.

peacemaker

Great balance PM.

cp

"Christ tipped the scales over, otherwise there would be no balance."

PM

willieH: Hi Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
I also believe God will save all mankind. But, hey, I'm probably wrong on that too.

You (and I) as believers in the Salvation of ALL, could be Tony...   :dontknow:

Just because we "believe" a given teaching, does not make it so...  :JCThink:

The WORD ...and... LOGIC must confirm that which we believe...

LOGIC is necessary in our beliefs... for God said:  "Come let us REASON together"...

REASON requires LOGIC and TRUTH... and if we are not capable of REASONING, then He was asking of us, something that is not possible... and THAT is not POSSIBLE or He would not make such a statement of invitation.

It is not LOGICAL (IMO) that God would create a being which is vastly more powerful than ourselves, omnipresent as is He, and COMPLETE in the knowledge of ALL THINGS which can tempt man into sin and INVISIBLE to boot!!

It is far MORE LOGICAL to believe that GOD made each man and/or woman with a NATURAL capability to DISOBEY, by yielding to his/her senses which are CARNAL by NATURE, and to fall to them without any assistance of an external SUPERNATURAL being which would be necessary to prompt us to do so.

The "accusing" is done by the LAW which is Holy, Just, and GOOD... The LAW of GOD is not "satanic" as a being, rather... it is a set of standards that prove HOLINESS... and point out UNHOLINESS in those who do not uphold those standards via their living  actions AND thought process...

As Paul pointed out in Rom 7 in his own plight... the LAW is the accuser or of our actions, if in fact those actions are found contrary TO IT...

It is also the CONFIRMATION of that which is HOLY... only CHRIST walked this earth completely within that CONFIRMATION... as for the rest of us, only IN HIM may we walk as did He... on our own, the LAW is our ADVERSARY and displays itself as ADVERSE to our NATURAL (non-CHRIST submitted) actions AND thoughts...




:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

So what's your point, willie?

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 11:25:16 PM
So what's your point, willie?

"A turning point?" :hihat:

peacemaker

Quote from: willieH on February 14, 2009, 10:11:54 PM
willieH: Hi Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
I also believe God will save all mankind. But, hey, I'm probably wrong on that too.

You (and I) as believers in the Salvation of ALL, could be Tony...   :dontknow:

Just because we "believe" a given teaching, does not make it so...  :JCThink:

The WORD ...and... LOGIC must confirm that which we believe...

LOGIC is necessary in our beliefs... for God said:  "Come let us REASON together"...

REASON requires LOGIC and TRUTH... and if we are not capable of REASONING, then He was asking of us, something that is not possible... and THAT is not POSSIBLE or He would not make such a statement of invitation.

It is not LOGICAL (IMO) that God would create a being which is vastly more powerful than ourselves, omnipresent as is He, and COMPLETE in the knowledge of ALL THINGS which can tempt man into sin and INVISIBLE to boot!!

It is far MORE LOGICAL to believe that GOD made each man and/or woman with a NATURAL capability to DISOBEY, by yielding to his/her senses which are CARNAL by NATURE, and to fall to them without any assistance of an external SUPERNATURAL being which would be necessary to prompt us to do so.

The "accusing" is done by the LAW which is Holy, Just, and GOOD... The LAW of GOD is not "satanic" as a being, rather... it is a set of standards that prove HOLINESS... and point out UNHOLINESS in those who do not uphold those standards via their living  actions AND thought process...

As Paul pointed out in Rom 7 in his own plight... the LAW is the accuser or of our actions, if in fact those actions are found contrary TO IT...

It is also the CONFIRMATION of that which is HOLY... only CHRIST walked this earth completely within that CONFIRMATION... as for the rest of us, only IN HIM may we walk as did He... on our own, the LAW is our ADVERSARY and displays itself as ADVERSE to our NATURAL (non-CHRIST submitted) actions AND thoughts...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...  :trampoline:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

Willie, not that others don't too but you have an energy that is astounding. Your words are a balm to my very being too and I want to thank you.

cp

willieH: Hi Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 11:25:16 PM
So what's your point, willie?

hmmm... whats my point?  :Chinscratch:

My "point" is that no Supernatural being, possessing (NEGATIVELY), many of the attributes we believe that our GOD actually possesses, ...is LOGICALLY necessary in this realm... GOD was well able to establish ADVERSITY without such a "being", and in my present observation, did just that...

It (my "point") is also, ...whatsoever we as individuals, "believe" ...has the potential to be incorrect... and we must remain humble as we search, in order that when (and if) REVELATION presents itself, we are found in a state, worthy to recieve it... The Pharisees displayed the state which is UNWORTHY, which busied itself with trying to pick apart the testimony of the TRUTH, using RELIGIOUS TRADITION to do so...  and their continuing blindness was the result.  :sigh:

Furthermore my "point" is that, ...REVELATION from GOD, is the ONLY way any of our observations shall be CORRECTED (if indeed they are incorrect), ...this shall not be accomplished by noting ourselves as correct and the other person incorrect, ...by comparing our "belief" to theirs and if they oppose, ...finding them as incorrect...  :dontknow:

THAT is me-point,  ...me-bratha...  :icon_rr:  :happygrin:



:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

willieH: Hi CP... :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on February 15, 2009, 12:11:38 AM

Quote from: willieH on February 14, 2009, 10:11:54 PM
willieH: Hi Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 08:38:54 PM
I also believe God will save all mankind. But, hey, I'm probably wrong on that too.

You (and I) as believers in the Salvation of ALL, could be Tony...   :dontknow:

Just because we "believe" a given teaching, does not make it so...  :JCThink:

The WORD ...and... LOGIC must confirm that which we believe...

LOGIC is necessary in our beliefs... for God said:  "Come let us REASON together"...

REASON requires LOGIC and TRUTH... and if we are not capable of REASONING, then He was asking of us, something that is not possible... and THAT is not POSSIBLE or He would not make such a statement of invitation.

It is not LOGICAL (IMO) that God would create a being which is vastly more powerful than ourselves, omnipresent as is He, and COMPLETE in the knowledge of ALL THINGS which can tempt man into sin and INVISIBLE to boot!!

It is far MORE LOGICAL to believe that GOD made each man and/or woman with a NATURAL capability to DISOBEY, by yielding to his/her senses which are CARNAL by NATURE, and to fall to them without any assistance of an external SUPERNATURAL being which would be necessary to prompt us to do so.

The "accusing" is done by the LAW which is Holy, Just, and GOOD... The LAW of GOD is not "satanic" as a being, rather... it is a set of standards that prove HOLINESS... and point out UNHOLINESS in those who do not uphold those standards via their living  actions AND thought process...

As Paul pointed out in Rom 7 in his own plight... the LAW is the accuser or of our actions, if in fact those actions are found contrary TO IT...

It is also the CONFIRMATION of that which is HOLY... only CHRIST walked this earth completely within that CONFIRMATION... as for the rest of us, only IN HIM may we walk as did He... on our own, the LAW is our ADVERSARY and displays itself as ADVERSE to our NATURAL (non-CHRIST submitted) actions AND thoughts...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...  :trampoline:

:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

Willie, not that others don't too but you have an energy that is astounding. Your words are a balm to my very being too and I want to thank you.

cp

:ty:  For such encouragement CP, ...I am quite blessed that you find my words as helpful...  :friendstu:



:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

 :cloud9: Amen cp, that he does...... :HeartThrob:

Just to throw my hat in this . . .first . . .Willie . . .you've been a blessing . .thoroughly enjoy your posts bro . . .again!!!

The thing with Peter . . .I see it is not about a ministry of a man, but a communication of God.  The rock that Christ is building on is not Peter the man, but it's the fact that this was the first time Peter got a revelation from God . . .why do I say that?  For one, because Jesus had to explain where that one came from . . . and two . . . it changed Peter's identity . . .the reason why I don't think it was so much a call to Peter going into ministry is because I believe that came when the call went out to the other eleven.

So . . what was the Rock?  It is the act of the Father REVEALING his son to man.  Upon that rock . . .upon the rock of spiritual revelation . . .not by flesh and blood . . .upon the rock of revelation through intimacy with the Father, Christ will build his kingdom . . .and it changed Peter's nature internally . . .even though it didn't readily manifest that change outwardly right away . .obviously . . .but when the spirit poured out on all flesh . . .when Peter had that upper room experience . . .the transformation of this nature then manifested.

What Jesus was doing here was . . prophesying . . calling things out as though they are . . . Somewhere someone wrote faith is not believing that God can . . it's believing that God will.

Who ever wrote that . . .thank you . .that was my nugget for the week.  There is much that lies beneath the surface of that . . .and my spirit has been hovering over the face of the depths of that ever since.  Birthing of even more life is on it's way!! :happy3:

Quote from: NathanSo . . what was the Rock? It is the act of the Father REVEALING his son to man.  Upon that rock . . .upon the rock of spiritual revelation . . .not by flesh and blood . . .upon the rock of revelation through intimacy with the Father, Christ will build his kingdom

Yes!!  It is the revelation of the Son to each one of us.  To each one of us, in our time,  he says--



.. thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

--Mat 16

"Faith is not believing that God can, it's knowing that He will"

peacemaker

Quote from: willieH on February 15, 2009, 03:30:22 AM
willieH: Hi Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 11:25:16 PM
So what's your point, willie?

Quote
hmmm... whats my point?  :Chinscratch:

Quote
My "point" is that no Supernatural being, possessing (NEGATIVELY), many of the attributes we believe that our GOD actually possesses, ...is LOGICALLY necessary in this realm... GOD was well able to establish ADVERSITY without such a "being", and in my present observation, did just that...

Of course God could have but He did create Satan. If Satan is just a figment of our imagination then so is Jesus and Michael the archangel. I mean God was well able to establish salvation without such a "being" as Jesus, and in my present observation did not do just that. He could have created an angelic concept without Michael but didn't.

QuoteIt (my "point") is also, ...whatsoever we as individuals, "believe" ...has the potential to be incorrect... and we must remain humble as we search, in order that when (and if) REVELATION presents itself, we are found in a state, worthy to recieve it... The Pharisees displayed the state which is UNWORTHY, which busied itself with trying to pick apart the testimony of the TRUTH, using RELIGIOUS TRADITION to do so...  and their continuing blindness was the result.  :sigh:

Yes and the Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so  and they were more noble than the others.

QuoteFurthermore my "point" is that, ...REVELATION from GOD, is the ONLY way any of our observations shall be CORRECTED (if indeed they are incorrect), ...this shall not be accomplished by noting ourselves as correct and the other person incorrect, ...by comparing our "belief" to theirs and if they oppose, ...finding them as incorrect...  :dontknow:

I don't ever recall that believing opposite of what the Bible says was a revelation from God. I don't compare my belief to another belief, but compare it to the Bible. What saith the Scriptures? That's the point.

QuoteTHAT is me-point,  ...me-bratha...  :icon_rr:  :happygrin:

I have to admit, I got a good belly laugh out of that above. Thanks bratha!

willieH: Hey brother T! :hithere:

Quote from: Tony N on February 14, 2009, 11:25:16 PM
So what's your point, willie?

Quote from: willieH
hmmm... whats my point?  :Chinscratch:

My "point" is that no Supernatural being, possessing (NEGATIVELY), many of the attributes we believe that our GOD actually possesses, ...is LOGICALLY necessary in this realm... GOD was well able to establish ADVERSITY without such a "being", and in my present observation, did just that...

Quote from: Tony N on February 15, 2009, 02:49:32 PMOf course God could have but He did create Satan. If Satan is just a figment of our imagination then so is Jesus and Michael the archangel. I mean God was well able to establish salvation without such a "being" as Jesus, and in my present observation did not do just that. He could have created an angelic concept without Michael but didn't.

Tony... You subtlely put words in my mouth in order to facilitate your belief... I have never in this ENTIRE CONVERSATION said or implied, that "satan" is a figment of our imagination!  Hey bro, I have some MAJOR Adversity facing me which is a FORMIDABLE ADVERSARY!  "satan" is a very REAL thing... just not a sentient "being" performing a negative agenda...

Just because I find "satan" as a different entity than do you, does not mean (1) that "satan" is imaginary  (2) that "satan" and ITS essence is to be compared to BEINGS which ARE sentient... (3) "coulda's, woulda's & shoulda's" ARE imaginary, so your above deductions and comparisons are thereby, moot.

Saying that God is well able to DO something that YOU concieve is only restating in a clumsy way that NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD...  He DID NOT do as you believe, (created a "tempter/accuser") but you are welcome to believe He did...  I have already pointed out that it is the LAW which ACCUSES us... not "satan"... and that SCRIPTURE notes that EVERY MAN (including CHRIST - who was a MAN) is TEMPTED in and by the same method... which is the NATURE of the FLESH, requesting ITS desires to be fulfilled (James 1:14)

Among the many questions you have avoided, here is another for you to do so: Where is it stated that "satan" was a created "being", Tony?

Quote from: willieHIt (my "point") is also, ...whatsoever we as individuals, "believe" ...has the potential to be incorrect... and we must remain humble as we search, in order that when (and if) REVELATION presents itself, we are found in a state, worthy to recieve it... The Pharisees displayed the state which is UNWORTHY, which busied itself with trying to pick apart the testimony of the TRUTH, using RELIGIOUS TRADITION to do so...  and their continuing blindness was the result.  :sigh:

Quote from: Tony N on February 15, 2009, 02:49:32 PMYes and the Bereans searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so  and they were more noble than the others.

The Bereans, noble as they were (which nobility is noted because they bothered to research and verify that which was "taught" them) were NOT noted as either RELIGIOUS, nor as Pharisees, Scribes or High Priests... were they Tony?

Quote from: willieHFurthermore my "point" is that, ...REVELATION from GOD, is the ONLY way any of our observations shall be CORRECTED (if indeed they are incorrect), ...this shall not be accomplished by noting ourselves as correct and the other person incorrect, ...by comparing our "belief" to theirs and if they oppose, ...finding them as incorrect...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Tony N on February 15, 2009, 02:49:32 PMI don't ever recall that believing opposite of what the Bible says was a revelation from God. I don't compare my belief to another belief, but compare it to the Bible. What saith the Scriptures? That's the point.

I have gone on many ET forums (still post on one), and this is the very same statement made by them when confronted with UR... They willfully ignore, without explaining the passages which support UR when they are presented to them...

On this subject you see one thing in the WORD of God Tony, that is in opposition to what ...I SEE... and just because YOU or I see this subject a given way, does not mean that that view is necessarily so... 

"What saith the Scripture" has been presented by BOTH of us in this convo...  Two views are ALWAYS supported in the Bible... You should know this bro...  GOD has set up HIS WORD, so that the CARNAL view of any particular subject, is able to be established.  Only SPIRITUAL REVELATION can open up the TRUTH contained in the WORD, not the "letter" of it...  :dontknow:

In this conversation, it has been obvious that there are some that seem to side with your viewpoint, ...but there are also, others which somewhat agree with how I see it... That in itself tells me that there is great likelihood that one of our views of this subject is on the pathway of TRUTH and the other is decieved...  Like with UR... this difference will only be finalized and stamped as TRUTH upon the JUDGMENT and RESURRECTION of GOD...

Until then, we present our belief, and GOD shall enlighten those He has chosen to KNOW the TRUTH on the matter, as He deems to be so...  :dontknow:

I have no more problem with you believing that "satan" is a being, any more than those who wish to continue to believe in Santa!  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHTHAT is me-point,  ...me-bratha...  :icon_rr:  :happygrin:

Quote from: Tony N on February 15, 2009, 02:49:32 PMI have to admit, I got a good belly laugh out of that above. Thanks bratha!

Hey Tony... I loveya bro... that we disagree on a given subject, doesn't in the slightest remove our brotherhood in CHRIST...  :friendstu: :grouppray:



:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

Quote from: Nathan on February 15, 2009, 06:40:36 AM
Just to throw my hat in this . . .first . . .Willie . . .you've been a blessing . .thoroughly enjoy your posts bro . . .again!!!

The thing with Peter . . .I see it is not about a ministry of a man, but a communication of God.  The rock that Christ is building on is not Peter the man, but it's the fact that this was the first time Peter got a revelation from God . . .why do I say that?  For one, because Jesus had to explain where that one came from . . . and two . . . it changed Peter's identity . . .the reason why I don't think it was so much a call to Peter going into ministry is because I believe that came when the call went out to the other eleven.

So . . what was the Rock?  It is the act of the Father REVEALING his son to man.  Upon that rock . . .upon the rock of spiritual revelation . . .not by flesh and blood . . .upon the rock of revelation through intimacy with the Father, Christ will build his kingdom . . .and it changed Peter's nature internally . . .even though it didn't readily manifest that change outwardly right away . .obviously . . .but when the spirit poured out on all flesh . . .when Peter had that upper room experience . . .the transformation of this nature then manifested.

What Jesus was doing here was . . prophesying . . calling things out as though they are . . . Somewhere someone wrote faith is not believing that God can . . it's believing that God will.

Who ever wrote that . . .thank you . .that was my nugget for the week.  There is much that lies beneath the surface of that . . .and my spirit has been hovering over the face of the depths of that ever since.  Birthing of even more life is on it's way!! :happy3:

I agree with what you say above bro... One thing about a FOUNDATIONAL ROCK which is the first laid, and which shall become a GLORIOUS BUILDING... is that other "rocks" are placed upon it... Those "rocks" contain and ARE, ...GOLD, SILVER, and PRECIOUS "STONES"...  :thumbsup:

There is a multi-faceted message from CHRIST in this statement.  That is that CHRIST is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE -- "ROCK"... and Peter is a PRECIOUS STONE, that is placed upon that ROCK, upon which MANY other "precious stones" shall be placed... is the building of the TEMPLE of GOD, in which He resides FOREVER...



:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

 :cloud9: Love it, Willie..... :thumbsup:

Dear Willie,
Let's have a new lookie at this verse: 

Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."
And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? (Zec.3:1,2). Concordant Version

  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  (2)  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (Zec 3:1-2) KJV

There are three beings above: Joshua, an angel or messenger and Yahweh.

Joshua is standing before the angel.
Satan is standing at his right hand.

God rebukes Satan for resisting or being adversitive to Joshua.

It doesn't say that God rebukes the adversity but that God rebukes Satan as the one stanind there resisting Joshua.

This shows Satan is the being that was being adverse to Joshua.

God did not rebuke Adversity for being adverse to Joshua.

If you are going to allegorize Satan's name you must also allegorize Yahweh's and the angel and Joshua's name too.

Willie wrote.......

Where is it stated that "satan" was a created "being"

I find this very interesting. It must be written in the Bible or Tony says he wouldn't believe it.

I have to do some research here. Thanks again Willie!

cp

Quote from: Tony N on February 15, 2009, 02:49:32 PM
If Satan is just a figment of our imagination then so is Jesus and Michael the archangel.

The Hebrew meaning for the name Michael is "who is like God."

"Who is like God?"

In the Greek, and compared to the Old Testament language – the word angel means; messenger. And, the word arch; chief, or principle, as in the greatest or highest.

Thus, Archangel basically means; The Chief, or greatest Messenger.

"The Highest, or greatest Messenger who is like the Father; the Angel of the LORD."

peacemaker

Of course God created Satan:

Job 26:13 By His spirit the heavens were made seemly; His hand travailed with the fugitive serpent.

  In +Job 26:13, we read,

          His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

If this were the utterance of one of Job's friends, we might well
beware, lest it be merely human philosophy, for the Lord said, "ye
have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as My servant Job
hath" (Job 42:7).

     Besides, we must be careful to check the translation of the
vital expressions. The Revisers change "formed" to "pierced," yet
the same word in 39:1 is left "the hinds do {calve}." There is
more consistency between "form" and "calve" than "pierce" and
"calve," yet the Revisers have made a change in the right
direction. The Hebrew word {ghool} refers to the {travail} which
accompanies birth (Isa.13:8; 23:4; 26:17; 54:1; 66:78). When
Eliphaz used this word, the translators themselves rendered it,
"the wicked man {travaileth with pain}" (Job 15:20) and the
Revisers concur. This, it will be seen, is allied to both
{forming} and {piercing}. How incongruous "pierce" is will be seen
if we should render Deut.32:18, "thou hast forgotten God {that
pierced thee}." They had forgotten the God Who had suffered in the
travail of their birth.

     Coming back, now, to the serpent, Job declares that

          By His spirit He garnished the heavens;
          His hand has travailed with the fugitive serpent.

     Note the contrast between the garnishing of the heavens by
His {spirit} and the painful production of the serpent by His
{hand}. The spirit is used of intimate and

p207                     God it was Who Travailed with the Serpent

vital association, the hand holds its work at a distance and
suggests power and skill, rather than communion.

     The immediate application of these lines is, of course, to
the material heavens. But no one who has studied the stars and
their relation to holy writ, will fail to see a far deeper
meaning. The stars are often used as figures of celestial powers,
and in the ancient constellations, both Draconis and Serpens have
always represented the Satan of Scripture. The Dragon's tail drew
a third part of the stars of heaven (Rev.12:4). This does not
prove that we have here the divine description of Satan's origin,
but it is ever so much nearer a demonstration than the passages
which are usually produced.

     But there is one more link which will put the matter beyond
question. Not only is the term {serpent} (Hebrew, {nahghahsh} the
same as the name of Eve's tempter in Eden's garden (Gen.3:1,2,4,
13,14), but Isaiah describes it in precisely the same terms, the
{fugitive serpent} (Isa.27:1):

     In that day Jehovah with His sore and great and strong sword,
     Shall punish leviathan the fugitive serpent,
     Even leviathan that crooked serpent;
     And He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

     The context clearly shows that this will be when the Lord
comes to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity
(Isa.26:21). Its connection with the twelfth chapter of the
Unveiling is too close to deny. If Satan is that "ancient serpent"
(Rev.20:2), how can we help identify him with Isaiah and Job and
Genesis? All will acknowledge Genesis and Isaiah. As precisely the
same name and descriptive term is used in Job as in Isaiah, the
evidence is as conclusive as it can well be. The "fugitive
serpent" of Job is the same as the "fugitive serpent" of Isaiah.
The "fugitive" serpent of Job (A. V. "crooked") and Isaiah seems
to refer to the constellation Serpens, for it flees from the grasp
of

p208                                   Sin and Pain began Together

Ophiuchus. The "crooked" serpent of Isaiah may be Draco (or
Draconis), which winds its way among the northern stars.

     The Unveiling and Isaiah give us his end, Genesis and Job
give us his beginning. He is not introduced to us in the garden as
an angel of light, though such he simulates today. He was seen as
a {serpent}. Job gives us his origin. The One Who has garnished
the heavens--{His} hand was pained with the travail of bringing
forth the serpent. (Unsearchab le Riches vol.15).

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 02:17:49 AM
The stars are often used as figures of celestial powers, and in the ancient constellations, both Draconis and Serpens have always represented the Satan of Scripture. The Dragon's tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven (Rev.12:4).

The fall of an angel is a fundamental fallacy in human theology, if this is your intention?

If we take this as a parable, wrapped in a fable and disguise it as an allegory, we would be closer to the truth.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so whose spirit spoke?


peacemaker

willieH: Tony, tonE, toni... compadre!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 12:41:50 AM
Dear Willie,
Let's have a new lookie at this verse: 

Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."
And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? (Zec.3:1,2). Concordant Version

  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  (2)  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (Zec 3:1-2) KJV

There are three beings above: Joshua, an angel or messenger and Yahweh.

Joshua is standing before the angel.
Satan is standing at his right hand.

God rebukes Satan for resisting or being adversitive to Joshua.

Sorry Tony, but there is nothing in this set of verses which notes there are 3 "beings" in this instance...

YHVH is a being, I completely concur...
Joshua is also a being, and again I will completely concur with this... however,

"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 12:41:50 AMIt doesn't say that God rebukes the adversity but that God rebukes Satan as the one stanind there resisting Joshua.

Tony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

That "satan" [adversity/adversary] is present and that presence is noted in it as "standing" before GOD, does not equate that ADVERSITY to a "sentient" being, nor that it is actually "standing" before GOD... GOD is simply rebuking the ADVERSITY present, because JOSHUA is present...

Just as would, a policeman tell the robber to "drop the gun"...  :dontknow:

Or instruct the "naked one" to "put on some clothes"  :laughing7:

Our  [USA] flag "STANDS" for freedom Tony... but in actuality, it has no legs, ...neither does it tire from it's "standing" and sit once & awhile, ...neither does it hear it's opposers  shout "DOWN in FRONT", because their views are obscured and opposed by it's "stand"!  :laugh:

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 12:41:50 AMThis shows Satan is the being that was being adverse to Joshua.

Nothing is said of a BEING that is ADVERSE to Joshua in this passage Tony... YOU erect this thought by your belief... the text says NOTHING of "satan" as a "being".

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 12:41:50 AMGod did not rebuke Adversity for being adverse to Joshua.

ADVERSITY is PRESENT in Joshua because he is a MAN... and ALL MEN are SINFUL, and therefore ADVERSE to HOLINESS... get a clue dear brother...  :dontknow:

Don't you know by now that you and I shall not find a common ground?  I spent almost 30 years believing as you do... I am quite aware of your observance of this, and know the drill!  You are welcome to believe it... It is NOT my agenda to change your belief...

Send "satan" cards on halloween if you wish... I'll have not part of GLORIFYING a non-existent EVIL "being" with OMNIPRESENCE... you are quite welcome to continue to in my place...  I have no desire to return to the mud of such fallacy...

As in the case of Eternal Torment (which I once believed, albeit grudgingly)... I shall NEVER go back to believing that LIE... You are welcome to believe as you do, and... as a matter of fact, I have no problem whatsoever with you doing so, ...for you would NOT believe as you do, unless YHVH had decided long prior to your lifetime here on earth (which He has), that you would...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 12:41:50 AMIf you are going to allegorize Satan's name you must also allegorize Yahweh's and the angel and Joshua's name too.

You entertain the idea that "satan" is a "NAME", ...dear brother, ...I do not!  :laughing7:

Do you also believe that this text notes the literal "right hand" Tony?  Did it have all 5 digits?  Was it calloused or smooth?  Was it dirty or clean?  Come on brud!  :rolleye:

Ga-head, matey!  :URWelcome: (as Taffy might say)... believe in your TRADITIONAL "satan" if you must... that presents no problem to me... I am over that part of my life... 

GOD is LOVE... He does NOT create EVIL beings... He creates scenarios, which allow HIS CHILDREN to gain the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, and within His creation of these scenario's they encounter in TIME... He (God) has made them to NATURALLY gravitate to DISOBEDIENCE... that they might gain this KNOWLEDGE...  :dontknow:

No EVIL  :Evilgrin: (halloween  :talkangry:) "being" is necessary...  :laughing7:



:gamer:  willieH  :angelharp:

Willie wrote:

Quote"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

You state that as if Satan is always present with a son of God. This is not so.

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

Notice, Satan didn't say: What do You  mean Where have I been? I've been here all the time with the sons of God.

No, Willie, Satan was not there then he came.

Since Yahweh is a being, Joshua is a being, the angel is a being therefore Satan is a being. Satan is standing there just as Joshua is standing there as is the angel standing there. You can't pick and choose what flavor you want, Willie.

QuoteTony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Jesus said "My words," yes, Willie, "My words are spirit and are truth." The soulish man is not able to understand the words of the Bible for they are spirit and truth and he is soulish. I understand them, Willie.

Luk 10:18 Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

Adversity is not falling but a being called Satan was seen falling out of heaven. Does a concept fall? Did Jesus see a concept falling out of heaven? No, Willie.

Every blessing to you bro! :thumbsup:

Quote from: Tony N on February 16, 2009, 02:15:38 PM
Willie wrote:

Quote"satan" is present whenever a SON of GOD is present before YHVH as is noted in Job 1:6-7

You state that as if Satan is always present with a son of God. This is not so.

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

Notice, Satan didn't say: What do You  mean Where have I been? I've been here all the time with the sons of God.

No, Willie, Satan was not there then he came.

Since Yahweh is a being, Joshua is a being, the angel is a being therefore Satan is a being. Satan is standing there just as Joshua is standing there as is the angel standing there. You can't pick and choose what flavor you want, Willie.

QuoteTony, as long as you remain in the LETTER of Scripture, you will encounter difficulty in finding and discovering, the SPIRIT of Scripture...

You are stuck in the LITERAL observance of (1) standing (2) right hand (3) proposing that Scripture is naming "beings" which in this case it DOES NOT...

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Jesus said "My words," yes, Willie, "My words are spirit and are truth." The soulish man is not able to understand the words of the Bible for they are spirit and truth and he is soulish. I understand them, Willie.

Luk 10:18 Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

Adversity is not falling but a being called Satan was seen falling out of heaven. Does a concept fall? Did Jesus see a concept falling out of heaven? No, Willie.

Every blessing to you bro! :thumbsup:

Hey Brother Tony,

Good try but with all due respect and of course from my puny perspective, this reply of yours Tony, sounds strangly like a barking of a dog, if you get my drift. Just teasing a bit. I do respect your strength and agility especially in respect to Sripture.

You are my Brother and I totally appreciate how God is using you to bring out such golden nuggets of Scripture.

I seek to present God and a reason for life before all my friends and 'neighbors' and they all live in a mostly physical literal existence yet they know they deal with the invisible things of life like adversity and anger and love and jealousy and more.

I am totally confused about a statement of yours Brother. You wrote.....

Funny, Jesus always quoted the literness of the Scriptures when Satan would come out of nowhere and try Jesus. If they are good enough for Jesus they are good enough for me.

Then you wrote that Jesus' words are spirit. To me that means they are spiritual. Yet you say you only believe what is written in the Bible but you seem to be saying Jesus' words are physical in meaning, not spiritual. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. This sounds to me like a natural mind trying to make sense of spiritual things but again this is just my view.

Tony, I see God has you in a place that is perfect for what I and probably many other people need. He has hardened both your heart and my heart to what we believe and He is hardening it even more through this discourse. I know I feel good about this and I assume you do too and what really makes me happy is that there are those who read these discussions and, by Gods grace, will grow. My prayer is that they will see the ridiculousness of one of these positions and the truth of the other and grow in God.

My other prayer is that wherever either of us are wrong God will shatter the hardness and allow growth to continue in Him.

cp

Job 1:6-7  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.

This fits so perfectly for me when I view 'the earth' as each person. We are made up of the earth which symbolizes that we are 'the earth'. Now this fits because I too see Satan as within the very essence of people going 'to and fro'.

Jesus Himself said that our enemies are those of our own household and as His words are spiritual in meaning I do not think He means that my enemy is my daughter or pet.

Jesus also said......For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings:  20  these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man.mt15.19

Out of a mans OWN household. Wow.

So to sum up about Satan going to and fro in the earth. This speaks volumes to me and backs up Jesus' own words about Satan, the adversarial spirit, being within.

I just am seeing too that it is a hint from God to us about how we are made and why all have sinned and come short of the glory of Him. Satan is a very subtle essence that, from the creation of people, has lurked within, going to and fro.

cp

CP,

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job. And I agree. The thing about the word satan is that it is as Willie says, a word denoting position. I once heard someone say it is an office, like president. Many people at different times assume the office. Satan is the name of the office of being adverse. In Job, it was the elements, the tribes, and the boils. In other places of scripture it is assumed by a person, Peter and God. In other places it is personified thoughts, Zechariah, Judas and Jesus.

Tony,
Do you believe satan is omnipresent?

great question Sarah . . . Looking forward to the outcome of that one.

I have been really enjoying the input of Willie and Claypot on this thread . . you guys are washing me with your insights and perspectives.  I pray that I can bless you as much as you have blessed me!!

Quote from: Sarah on February 16, 2009, 04:32:37 PM
CP,

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job. And I agree. The thing about the word satan is that it is as Willie says, a word denoting position. I once heard someone say it is an office, like president. Many people at different times assume the office. Satan is the name of the office of being adverse. In Job, it was the elements, the tribes, and the boils. In other places of scripture it is assumed by a person, Peter and God. In other places it is personified thoughts, Zechariah, Judas and Jesus.

Tony,
Do you believe satan is omnipresent?

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.  :laughing7:

adversary in the New Testament is "diabalo" in Greek and does not always speak of Satan.
Satan in the New Testament is "catana" where 'c' is a soft 'c.'

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not I choose you, the twelve, and one of you is an adversary?

Notice Jesus did not say that one of them is THE Adversary. People in the Scriptures can be adversarial yet not be THE Adversary.

There are ecclesias which are not THE church such as:

Act 19:38 Indeed, then, if Demetrius and the artificers with him have a charge against anyone, court sessions are being held, and there are proconsuls; let them be indicting one another."
Act 19:39 Now if you are seeking for anything concerning other things, in the legal ecclesia will it be explained."

This legal ecclesia was a group of legal people, ones legally constituted, and properly authorized to hear and determine on the subject.

And there is THE ecclesia of God and Christ.  Just because a group of lawyers are an ecclesia does not mean that those group of lawyers are Christians. Ecclesia just means "out called."

Likewise one who is called an adversary is not necessarily THE Adversary.

Likewise there are many lords in the Scriptures. Just because one is called "lord" does not mean they are THE LORD.

Likewise there are many people who are called "god" in the Bible. This does not mean they are THE GOD.

You dig?

Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 16, 2009, 05:57:42 PM
Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

Well . . .didn't you see it?  He answered it just as clear as day . . . "is Satan omnipresent?"  Answer . . .Satan is not in you. . . .there.

Next question?

QuoteI think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

:thumbsup: 

Illustrative language is tricky. A word can become a noun, a proper noun, an adjective, an adverb, and a verb. What if the word 'jealous' were to become obsolete and years from now readers read this in ancient holy texts?

His name is Jealous. Jealous hugs me with his green venom and spews jealousy into my ears. He walks to and fro in the earth. He stands before me and tempts me. I must resist him. He is to be cast down and out.

Quote from: Nathan on February 16, 2009, 06:36:03 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 16, 2009, 05:57:42 PM
Sarah, you wrote...

I can already hear Tony then using the argument that the 'satan within' cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I think of how wisdom is personified. Do you see wisdom as a physical being?

Sarah, I also am not saying there is no place for the physical in God workings. I see parallels all the time. I see wisdom crying out in the streets and I see wise people doing the same. I see all the natural disasters in the world and I see 'disasters' within my very own being.

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

And Tony, what about Sarahs other question, Brother? Do you believe Satan is omnipresent?

cp

Well . . .didn't you see it?  He answered it just as clear as day . . . "is Satan omnipresent?"  Answer . . .Satan is not in you. . . .there.

Next question?

Nathan, by your attitude I am sincerly beginning to wonder which seed you are of. You are very adversarial and mocking much like your father.

How could I believe Satan is omnipresent when the Bible never says he is omnipresent?

Because you never answer the questions Tony.  How do we know that Satan "isn't" omnipresent?  Does the Bible say he's not?

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

I'm not trying to get you in any way Tony but I am curious as to your response to an earlier question you must have overlooked. It is this........

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I asked......

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

cp

Quote from: Doc on February 17, 2009, 12:11:20 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

Then why doesn't he say that?

If diabolos is a spirit, it can confront and enter into people and also leave people.


11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

--Mat 4


"devil"

diabolos

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2009, 12:40:29 AM

Quote from: Doc on February 17, 2009, 12:11:20 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2009, 11:13:45 PM

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


"devil"

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.



He doesn't say all of them.  He says one of them.

Then there's still more than one 'diabolos' (wrt the common view), according to this definition.

I simply see it as Jesus saying "one of you is taking the role of a diabolos".

Then why doesn't he say that?

If diabolos is a spirit, it can confront and enter into people and also leave people.


11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

--Mat 4


"devil"

diabolos

I think it is a spirit, Molly. Much like what the scripture refers to as the "spirit of antichrist", which has the potential to manifest in any human being. I just don't necessarily see it as a "personal" high ranking fallen angel. More like principalities, powers, and spiritual forces of wickedness in high places.

I am interested in the "catana" thing Tony mentioned though. I'm going to have to look that up.