What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[sheila]

  you might find this interesting ,guys..

   Secrets of Enoch 31;4  the devil is the evil spirit of the

   lower places, as a fugitive he made Sotona from the heavens

   as his name was Satanail[Sotona/Cotona[soft C]?


  Secrets of Enoch 31  [speaking ofAdam in the garden]

         Sheila

[Tony N]

I'm not trying to get you in any way Tony but I am curious as to your response to an earlier question you must have overlooked. It is this........

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I asked......

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

cp

Do you mean by your question that if God's spirit is in me and I all of a sudden break out in boils from the top of my head to the bottoms of my feet, and I am attacked by, oh, let's say, the Russians, and they take all I have and fire of God comes out of heaven and smites my belongings and a great wind comes and hits the house where my daughter lives and she dies are you asking me if these events would be caused by God's spirit being in me?

[claypot]

I'm not trying to get you in any way Tony but I am curious as to your response to an earlier question you must have overlooked. It is this........

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I asked......

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

cp

Do you mean by your question that if God's spirit is in me and I all of a sudden break out in boils from the top of my head to the bottoms of my feet, and I am attacked by, oh, let's say, the Russians, and they take all I have and fire of God comes out of heaven and smites my belongings and a great wind comes and hits the house where my daughter lives and she dies are you asking me if these events would be caused by God's spirit being in me?

Naw good Buddy, I'm just wondering. You said Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I'm wondering why not? God is within and He also causes great works to be done in the physical realm. I guess I'm not reading you right here.

Tony, do you think Jesus is talking literal blood and flesh when He says to eat His flesh and drink His blood or is this one of the places where you determine that it is not to be interpreted in a physical way?

By the way I think that the only way the disasters you describe and are described in Job could only happen if Satan was a manifestation from within. Ever think what people do when their minds take on an adversarial role? People can do some very nasty things.

Does anyone here have any ideas as to why people do such horrible things? I mean really. Not like stealing bubblegum or something but like having a great joy in like torturing another human? What is going on within a person capable of this kind of evil?

cp

[Molly]

Not like stealing bubblegum or something but like having a great joy in like torturing another human? What is going on within a person capable of this kind of evil?

They're sick.

[Doc]

Ok, here's what I was able to find. It appears that the NT usage of satan (according to Strong's) refers back to the OT Hebrew usage of satan and all its Greek forms appear to merely point back to the original Hebrew. With that in mind, here's what I was able to find. I'll bold what I think is of particular relevance to our discussion. The first entry is from:

Harper's Bible Dictionary
edited by Paul J. Achtemier (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1985)


Devil, the English translation of a Greek word (diabolos) meaning 'accuser' or 'slanderer,' used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew 'Satan' and in the nt as a virtual synonym for the same term. In the kjv, it is also regularly employed as a translation of another Greek word (daimon), which, however, in the rsv is transliterated as 'demon.' The idea that Satan was an angel put out of heaven because of his rebellion against God and his desire to assume the prerogatives of divinity seems to be reflected in Luke 10:18. Jesus' ability to expel the demons who were Satan's minions was understood to be the result of his having conquered and 'bound' Satan (see Mark 3:27)

Satan, the English transliteration of a Hebrew word whose literal meaning is 'adversary.' This is the basic idea associated with Satan in the ot. The figure of Satan is found in only three places in the ot, and all of these are postexilic in date (i.e., after 538 b.c.): Job 1-2; Zech. 3:1-2; and 1 Chron. 21:1.

In the first two instances (Job 1-2; Zech. 3:1-2), Satan is depicted as a member of God's court whose basic duty it was to 'accuse' human beings before God. He is clearly not at this point an enemy of God and the leader of the demonic forces of evil, as he becomes later. There is some question as to whether, in 1 Chron. 21:1, a specific personality is being described as in Job and Zechariah, or whether the 'adversary' is to be understood here as a general tendency toward evil. In the Hebrew text, there is no definite article with the noun 'Satan,' and the word is probably best translated simply as 'an adversary.' In either case, the figure in 1 Chronicles is not yet the embodiment of evil. It should be noted that 'the serpent' of Genesis 3 is never in the ot identified as Satan.

It is during the late postexilic period (after ca. 200 b.c.) and in the intertestamental literature that one first finds the development of the idea of Satan that is assumed in the nt writings. Probably under the influence of Persian ideology, there developed in Hebrew thought the idea of a dualism rampant in the created order—a dualism of good versus evil. There existed already the idea that God had a heavenly host, a group of messengers to carry out his work and orders. The Persians also believed in a ruler over the powers of evil, who had many servants in this realm known as demons. The Hebrews could easily understand and assimilate such thinking into their already existing ideas, but they had not yet developed any idea of a major being as a leader of the forces of evil. Thus, in the development of the religious thinking of the Jewish people, several different names were used to designate the leader of those forces hostile to God: the devil, Belial (also Beliar), Mastemah, Apollyon (meaning the 'Destroyer'), Sammael, Asmodeus, or Beelzebub. Satan, however, came to be the most usual designation (in Greek, Satan was translated as 'the devil'). Another interesting development took place during this period: the figure of the devil or Satan came to be identified with 'the serpent' of Genesis 3.

Satan and his cohorts then came to represent the powers of evil in the universe and were even known in Jesus' time as the Kingdom of Satan, against which Jesus had come to fight and to establish the Kingdom of God (e.g., Mark 3:23-26). The demons were considered to be the cause of sickness, both physical and mental, and of many calamities of nature (e.g., storms, earthquakes); in general, they were the forces responsible for much of human sin (and therefore misery), and they were always opposed to God's purposes and God's people.

In the nt writings, Satan appears frequently, especially in the Gospels. The figure is also known by numerous other designations, among which are the devil (e.g., Matt. 4:1), the tempter (e.g., Matt. 4:3), the accuser (e.g., Rev. 12:10), the prince of demons (e.g., Luke 11:15), the ruler of this world (e.g., John 12:31), as well as certain of the proper names listed above. One of the most interesting designations is 'the evil one.' In fact, it is quite possible that, in the Lord's Prayer, the original meaning of the petition, 'deliver us from evil,' may have been, 'deliver us from the evil one' (Matt. 6:13b).

In both Jewish and Christian apocalyptic writings, it is clearly affirmed that, no matter how powerful Satan may appear to be, his final overthrow by the power of God is certain (e.g., Rev. 20:1-10, where 'the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan' is to be 'thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone...and tormented day and night for ever and ever').

Much modern thought about the figure of Satan, particularly at the popular level, owes its origin to John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667), not to the biblical writings (e.g., the application of Isa. 14:12-15 to Satan and his 'fall' from heaven). While the figure of Satan is powerful and even heroic in Milton's work, it should be remembered that Milton's Satan and the biblical figure are not always the same.

And the second:


The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume,

edited by Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985)

The OT View of Satan. 1. The satan is basically the enemy (cf. 1 Sam. 29:4; Ps. 71:13), but specifically the legal accuser (Zech. 3:1) who is placed at the right hand of the accused (cf. Ps. 109:6). Ezek. 21:28-29; 29:16 express the same concept in another term (cf. 1 Kgs. 17:18).

2. Job offers the picture of a heavenly accuser—not a demonic being, but an official prosecutor who comes before God at special times and is part of his entourage. This accuser can act against Job only with God's approval and on God's behalf. A sinister element enters in, however, with his power to use natural disasters and sickness. In Zech. 3:1ff. we again have the accuser at a trial, although here grace overrules law and the accusation is quashed. The OT references to sŒaµtaµn are infrequent and the concept is not central. Only in 1 Chr. 21:1 (and possibly 1 Kgs. 22:19ff.) does the idea of a tempter occur. The legal element is still present in 1 Chr. 21:1 but Satan (now a proper name) is hostile and harmful. As distinct from Persian dualism, Satan is still under God and the event recorded is not removed from the divine plan of salvation. The OT Satan embodies a threat from God's world, whether as divine prosecutor or as destructive principle.

So, it seems at least from these two references that the idea of satan as an individual demonic being was not developed until later on, and that perhaps some of our modern ideas about satan have their origins in Persian dualism. The satan of the bible is distinct from Persian dualism in that this satan is still under God and acts only within set parameters.

[Tony N]

I'm not trying to get you in any way Tony but I am curious as to your response to an earlier question you must have overlooked. It is this........

Tony, you wrote...

There is no "Satan within" but if there were, Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I asked......

Do you believe God is within people and if so do you believe God causes things to happen in the physical?

cp

Do you mean by your question that if God's spirit is in me and I all of a sudden break out in boils from the top of my head to the bottoms of my feet, and I am attacked by, oh, let's say, the Russians, and they take all I have and fire of God comes out of heaven and smites my belongings and a great wind comes and hits the house where my daughter lives and she dies are you asking me if these events would be caused by God's spirit being in me?

Naw good Buddy, I'm just wondering. You said Satan within cannot cause the natural disasters reported in Job.

I'm wondering why not? God is within and He also causes great works to be done in the physical realm. I guess I'm not reading you right here.

What happened to Job was not due to Satan being in his flesh. The Bible tells us Who did the evil to Job and it was GOD. That is what the Bible says. Let's believe the Bible.

Tony, do you think Jesus is talking literal blood and flesh when He says to eat His flesh and drink His blood or is this one of the places where you determine that it is not to be interpreted in a physical way?

Catholics think they really drink His blood and eat His body. They believe in transubstantiation. I don't but they do. I realize they outnumber me about a billion to one but just because they have more "believers" in that does not mean they are correct. Besides it is easy to determine if it was meant to be taken as a figure of speech because Jesus said "this is my body." Now then, had He said "this My body" without the "is" then it would most likely be meant to be literal.

By the way I think that the only way the disasters you describe and are described in Job could only happen if Satan was a manifestation from within. Ever think what people do when their minds take on an adversarial role? People can do some very nasty things.

That idea goes contrary to the Scriptures. God is said to be the One Who brought the evil on Job.

Does anyone here have any ideas as to why people do such horrible things? I mean really. Not like stealing bubblegum or something but like having a great joy in like torturing another human? What is going on within a person capable of this kind of evil?

It could be that Satan entered into them where he formerly was not to cause them to murder much like he entered into Judas where he formerly was not and caused Judas to betray the spotless lamb.

And some people have mental problems which cause them to murder thinking they are killing spiders or space aliens or whatever.

[Tony N]

Doc, thanks, but what I find appalling in that article is that the writer believes that the truths written in the Bible are the result of the writers being in contact with the pagan beliefs of the day and that those beliefs influenced the writers of the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Doc]

Doc, thanks, but what I find appalling in that article is that the writer believes that the truths written in the Bible are the result of the writers being in contact with the pagan beliefs of the day and that those beliefs influenced the writers of the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Well, actually it was two articles. One was from Harper's and the other from Kittel's. What I got out of it at any rate is that some of our ideas about satan are not actually reflected by scripture. There may have been an insinuation on the part of one of the authors along the lines of what you suggested, but that wasn't what I was mainly trying to draw out of those two entries.

It seems clear that even if one sticks with a purely surface reading of scripture, that there is some ambiguity even within scripture as to what exactly satan is.

[Sarah]

It could be that Satan entered into them where he formerly was not to cause them to murder much like he entered into Judas

Then is everyone else in the universe left alone while satan inhabits his body since satan is not omnipresent?

[claypot]

Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Nathan, your original question is very interesting to me, I'd like to get back to it.

First of all, I like your question too Sheila and I know Tony will have an answer, mind you, not a thought, but an answer. I'll be anxious to read it as he is a Brother.

I am a one track kind of guy as I see many are so here is my take on your post.

Could it be that Christ is me? Do you see this or am I out to lunch? Satan is me. For that matter Soloman is me. Moses is me. God forbid the donkey is me. The trees are me.

It just seems that whatever I read in the Bible I see me in it. I am stubborn like a jack ass, I am a nice guy like Nicodemus, I am a slanderer like Satan, I am divine like Jesus (in Gods eyes?).

The physical Jesus and the physical creation are all types of me, you and all.

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

God made us, this is a mystery. Light has risen in certain people. The riches of His glory, IMO, is the divine light within all people. Christ lights every person that comes into the world. The divine (Christ) is put into a carnal vessel (Gentile). The mystery among the Gentiles is the mystery of the divine within and earthen vessel. The mystery is that there is something Divine in me, who is a rotten sob often times.

My  :2c:

cp

[reFORMer]

Well, who or what is responsible for going on and on (as already happened on other threads devoted to the topic) about:  "Is Satan is an Adversarial Condition or a Personal Being?" when the thread is:  "What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?"

It seems both views of Satan have to be accepted.  Some conditions merge into personality.  Personal beings come to fill up a condition.  An infection is a condition that may be a colony of life-forms serving a spirit over their function.  "For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead." (James 2:26, CLV)  Bacteria without spirit are dead.  Cast out the spirit of a bacterial infection and it dies.  Whether seemingly happenstance without intentional oversight or a man or a demon in charge of infecting someone, neither sets aside Jesus remaining Lord of all.

Satan was a murderer from the beginning.  He is a liar and the father of it.  He is sinning from the beginning.

Speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus says, "You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44, CLV)

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8, CLV)

What of Jesus and His Change we can search out and understand to apply to our body of humiliation becoming conformed to the likeness of His body of glory is surely more interesting, more to be obsessed over, with more desirable fruit than the Nature of Satan!

[Molly]

4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

--John 13


Interesting...just our feet get dirty...

[Tony N]

It could be that Satan entered into them where he formerly was not to cause them to murder much like he entered into Judas

Then is everyone else in the universe left alone while satan inhabits his body since satan is not omnipresent?

No, because Satan is the head of a kingdom and has denizens of demons under his control throughout the universe. He is kind of like the Darth Vader of evil.

But, yes, when Satan entered into Judas he was not in anyone else at that time.

Satan's demons can enter a human:

Mat 8:31 Now the demons entreated Him, saying, "If You are casting us out, dispatch us into the herd of hogs."
Mat 8:32 And He said to them, "Go!Now they, coming out, come away into the hogs. And lo! the entire herd rushes down the precipice into the sea and died in the waters."

And there are spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials where we believers are headed and which we will have to wrestle with:

Eph 6:12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials."

Satan is in control of all these. Yet God is in control of Satan. And no one controls God.

[Tony N]

Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Nathan, your original question is very interesting to me, I'd like to get back to it.

First of all, I like your question too Sheila and I know Tony will have an answer, mind you, not a thought, but an answer. I'll be anxious to read it as he is a Brother.

I am a one track kind of guy as I see many are so here is my take on your post.

Could it be that Christ is me? Do you see this or am I out to lunch? Satan is me. For that matter Soloman is me. Moses is me. God forbid the donkey is me. The trees are me.

It just seems that whatever I read in the Bible I see me in it. I am stubborn like a jack ass, I am a nice guy like Nicodemus, I am a slanderer like Satan, I am divine like Jesus (in Gods eyes?).

The physical Jesus and the physical creation are all types of me, you and all.

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

God made us, this is a mystery. Light has risen in certain people. The riches of His glory, IMO, is the divine light within all people. Christ lights every person that comes into the world. The divine (Christ) is put into a carnal vessel (Gentile). The mystery among the Gentiles is the mystery of the divine within and earthen vessel. The mystery is that there is something Divine in me, who is a rotten sob often times.

My  :2c:

cp

I did answer Nathan here:

   
Re: What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 02:54:25 PM »
   
Nathan,
Christ told His disciples He was flesh and bones and that a spirit does not have flesh and bones(cf Luke 24:39).

This does not mean Christ does not have a spirit. He does. It is that invisible, imperceptible power He has.

in 1 Peter 10,11 Peter talks about the prophets:

"searching into what or what manner of era the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."

That was before Christ came of a virgin. He sent His spirit to those prophets to inform them of the future concerning Himself (while He was still in heaven).

Christ is still sitting at the right hand of God until . . .
Act 3:21 Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Now then, while Christ as He is comprised of flesh and bones and spirit (without blood, since He shed His blood for all mankind) and is seated in heaven UNTIL . . . this does not mean He cannot send His spirit to us. It is that same spirit which raised Him from the dead which will also raise us from the dead. We have His spirit. This does not mean that His spirit vacated His flesh and bone body in heaven and He is now spiritless.

We also have God's spirit in us. This does not mean God vacated His spirit and gave it all to us. God is still spirit and fills heaven and earth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I'm going to add my  :2c: on this Satan debate, for what it's worth. I've never seen Satan personally, although I've read an account of a well know minister who said he saw him following a visit from the Lord in his bedroom one night, which I thought was interesting and I believe him, if for no other reason, because of the details.

But I have seen demons up close and personal, during a two plus years experience of "working" in deliverance, ala the Lord. The first experience with it, the Lord pulled out all the stops, I think because He wanted to drive home the point, and my friend experienced this one too. The very air around it was evil, and you could feel what I can only describe as waves of hate emanating from it towards us.

Depersonalizing them, for these reasons, does not work for me, because I know firsthand, they have a personality, they have a human-like form (minus the bones structure), they have dog-like teeth, they can grab your wrist, ect., they can speak (we actually had a music tape which was playing during an attack on someone, that inexplicably picked up and recorded the demon's voice), and they have intelligence.

And I can tell you they are EVERYWHERE, doing things you would never dream of, if you hadn't seen it yourself. It's only by the grace of God that you can't see them, and only by the anointing that HE chooses, to impart to suit His purposes, that you can. They are even in churches, the last place you'd think they'd want to hang out. That doesn't seem possible in a way, but where the SPIRIT of the Lord is there is liberty, and if no Spirit present, then they are not bothered at all to sit through the latest sermon.

So because I have experienced them, I find it not that difficult to believe in a real Satan as a "person", but I think there might be a possibility that he is a many-membered body as well, because he must follow the Lord (I'll explain that if anyone is interested). Blessings....

[Sarah]

Thank you for for your reply Tony. I was just curious.

I think most people in Mainstream Christianity believe that satan is an angel that fell and will get his punishment someday. If you don't ponder this too hard, it really doesn't affect your relationship or view of the Father's love. In this case it isn't worth pursuing, just to agree to disagree.

The problem I see with explaining my position, that satan is a spirit, is that people then take that to mean that I do not think he is real. Cardinal is citing supernatural phenomena, Molly keeps saying that only Judas was a devil and I think the point is that satan isn't within because not all were devils, and Tony keeps saying that if you don't use 'an' and give him human qualities then that makes him a being. I certainly believe the things Cardinal shared as real and not 'in the head'. Concerning the abscence of 'an' and human qualities and the 'devil being in one of you', that is all illustrative language.

But, like I said, if the current belief system regarding satan doesn't give rise to redemptive, loving, or spiritual stability in the heavenlies, then I think it doesn't matter if we know the material makeup of this enemy. My mother will always believe in the being satan who is personally attacking her, and that is ok because she doesn't question like I do.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I should have added something else to ponder. I don't really know how to explain it properly, but there is difference between and evil spirit and a demon. The best explanation I can come up with, is that an evil spirit is like a "thought", in that it does not have mass exactly, but a demon is the embodiment of that thought, many times over, and you can feel a solid form if it grabs your wrist or ankle, or tries to choke you.

An evil spirit usually leaves the body like a cough. A demon possessed person is a battle like none other, thank God the battle belongs unto the Lord, and He will spiritually subdue it to prevent it from literally killing you. A demon can speak in it's own voice out of a person; an evil spirit can prompt someone to say something in their own voice.

I will say one thing for what I call the "Lord's Bootcamp" here; it is excellent training to remove all fear and promote unquestioning trust in the Lord. Blessings...

[reFORMer]

1 John 1:1-3, (CLV)...
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.
3 That which we have seen and heard we are reporting to you also, that you too may be having fellowship with us, and yet this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

Really Cardinal, part of what informs me in many of the discussions here is experience.  An example is some things about a foot long that would emerge out of another realm into visible spirit.  They were snakelike and surrounded with a tangible darkness, the opposite of an aura of light.  They were radiating darkness and some kind of power.  The end of their heads where a mouth would be was a kind of rectangular grid.  When they pressed against me with their grid it caused a painful buzzing, something like alternating current. 

Another example is once, when I was sick with diarrhea, I finally remembered to ask God to heal me and shortly thereafter he did.  I had only for a few seconds had my mind on something else when a spirit thing that looked like fire just my size and shape left me and disappeared.  I immediately felt good and, like a weight had been removed, I felt light.  So, I began to dance and praise the Lord.

I've also experienced God's presence in various ways, like many sort of "vacuoles" of water-like substance which, if you intersected with one, there would be a most wonderful experience of refreshing peace and joy, with peace predominant.  Another was like a hard monsoon rain of sparks of light and power, increasing in intensity and brightness to where it became impossible to go deeper into it as people pressed forward.

When you're dealing with Scripture and what Jesus says you're dealing with great material.  Its hard to not get some benefit from it.  But stringing together some Bible verses and quoting a couple lexicons can miss the truth of a matter.  This, thrown together with venerable tradition's errors and men's ideas is used to enslave men.  The term "elder" is a prime example.  People enslave others with a chain of "elder" verses producing the opposite of elders.  They supplant the functioning of the body of Christ rather than bring it forth.  In a gathering of believers functioning under the headship of Jesus Christ another understanding of elders emerges.

In the phrase:  "The spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" in Ephesians 6:12 "forces" is not in the original but is added.  It is the same word used in 1 Corinthians 12: 1 when introducing chapters 12 through 14, "Now concerning spiritual gifts ('endowments,' CLV)" where "gifts ('endowments,' CLV) has been added.  In both cases it is the plural of "spiritual."  We wrestle with spiritual wickednesses.  Our struggle is against wicked spiritual forces and endowments.

There are many things of spirit, just as we have many things in our physical world.  There are spirits like clouds of flies around people.  Many thoughts come from the quickening of some spirit that passes through a person.  There are very many more spirits than there are people.  Everything that people say has a spiritual aspect.

[Nathan]

I'm not as big on the demonic anymore.  I think we become distracted from the power of Light as we become enamored by the sense of darkness.  For me, the only reason why the demonic manifested in Jesus ministry was to show that Christ had power over them. 

The original point on this particular thread was to try to shed some light on the fact that for me . . .Christ is not flesh as we are flesh.  Not now . . .he "was" but his purpose to become flesh has been finished . . .and for one to believe that Chirst personally to be seated at the throne and his spirit to be in me and not him . . .for one, is rejecting what Scripture says . . .it doesn't say the spirit of God in me and the hope of glory . . .it doesn't say the spirit of Christ in me, the hope of glory . .it says "Christ" in me.  If we're going to be literal, then we must read it as such.

Here's an interesting passage . . .in two verses . . .it states in us is the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ . .and Christ . . .

Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The question came to me . . ."Why could the spirit not be poured out upon all flesh before Christ ascended?"  To me, it's because it's the same spirit.  The Holy Spirit and Christ's spirit are one . . .just as Christ and the Father are one.  This is why Paul can then say that in you there is the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ . .and Christ.

It's like saying you can take the yoke out of an egg and put it in another . . .and yet the previous egg is still an egg.  But the reality is, you can't separate an egg from itself and still call it an egg.  Israel is a prime example of what happens when someone "does" separate . .and even then . .they didn't do the actual separation, God separated the bread (Christ) and the spirit from them and left them with the law . .but it was because of their foolishness and misuse of his purpose in their lives.

I'm referring to when they lost the ark.  Before they lost it, it had all three elements in it . . .stone tablets, Aaron's rod and the manna.  But when they finally did get the ark back . . . all that was in it was the stone tablets.  And that is what became their identity, they lived by law, rather than the balance of God.

That's why to me, the mount of transfiguration is so profound . . .God was showing the church within the church that he was restoring the balance of his nature by way of Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ.  But it was still clearly evident who it is we're to give honor to. 

[sheila]

  Well, I don't like the issue to be a point of division.

  and the only thing that makes me even approach it...

  is that some confuse the possession/work of this

spirit/adversary/demon...with the person it is using.

  And have essentially'cut off' such people from the LOVE

 of God..or  condemned them as the evil goat set for

 everlasting destruction.Do to a lack of understanding.


  And that the beleivers..not being aware of the hatred

  and malice aimed at them from the Kingdom of Darkness..

  even denying their existence...are at a disadvantage to

  their workings and are hindered in their warfare with them.

  Somehow thinking they are 'immune'..If He dared to

  use David,enter Judas, entreat Jesus,speak through Peter,

  and the Pharisees and sadducees...Infiltrate the early

 congregation with heresy's..anti-christ spirits...make

 Babylon a haunt and cage of demons..legions taking over a

 man/saying we are many.WE NEED TO BE AWARE..

  that they seek to 'devour' us. Stay close to our Shepherd

  DO NOT FEAR THEM


   God had Adam to name all the animals...if you knew

 somethings name...you had knowledge of it's

 being,nature,habits. YOU NEED THIS KNOWLEDGE TO MASTER

  IT..AND HAVE DOMINION OVER IT. Jesus  knew this..

  that is how he held authority over them.

  Thatis also why in Rev he has a new name that only HE knows

  That is also why God has in past changed names of People.

  Abram/Abraham...even Jerusalem..New Jerusalem

  Saul/Paul...the name depicts the nature...and the knowledge

 of such


                                                Sheila


   

[claypot]

4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

--John 13


Interesting...just our feet get dirty...

That is good stuff Molly. Doesn't it seem to be talking about people, individual people. Jesus is washing us in Gods own way yet we do still get dirt on our feet possible from stepping on devilish things. Our heel and the serpents head.

Nathans original thought was about the mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I feel like a Gentile that is becoming a something more.

It is a mystery that Christ is in people. He is described as hope, the hope of glory. I feel hope strong within me. I feel the Christ within me. It is a very good feeling. I hope for so much.

cp

[sheila]

  interesting asides about feet;

  the earth is the footstool of God

   the seed of the serpent will bruise the heel of the woman's

seed...and the woman's seed will crush the head of the serpent

under it's heel.

   Jesus feet annointed...

   our feet get dirty from walking about in the earth

   even with sandals on.

  disciples instructed to 'shake the dust from their feet.".when

  leaving a place the Good News was rejected

  Jesus has to wash our feet..or we have no part in HIM.

    thy word is a lamp unto my feet

Rev 3;10  - I will make them come and fall down at your feet,

   and acknowledge that I have loved you.

[Molly]

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

That last sentence says that this Spirit dwelling in us will quicken our mortal bodies. :mshock:



"quicken" [our mortal bodies] [rom8]
G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

[Tony N]

"spirit" does not always mean "an invisible person."

The base meaning of spirit is blow-effect where "pneu" of "pneuma" is "blow" or "breeze"
see Acts 27:40
Act 27:40 And, taking the anchors from about it, they left them in the sea, at the same time slacking the lashing of the rudders and hoisting the foresail to the breeze, they kept her course for the beach."

winds Matt.7:25,27; Luke 12:55
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they lunge at that house, and it does not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the rivers came, and the winds blow and they dash against that house, and it falls: and the fall of it was great."


blast John 3:8; John 6:18;
Joh 3:8 The blast [pneuma] is blowing where it wills, and the sound of it you are hearing, but you are not aware whence it is coming and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is begotten by the water and the spirit [pneumatos]."

Joh 6:18 Besides, the sea was roused by the blowing of a great wind."

Wind Rev.7:1
Rev 7:1 And after this I perceived four messengers standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind may not be blowing on the land, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."


So the pneuma is blow or breeze or wind effect.
In otherwords it is invisible but has force behind it.
There is "the spirit of the word" where the word of God has an invisible power to it.
So the spirit of Christ being in us is His invisible power which causes us to live righteously.


Rom 8:9-11  Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His." 

You are in spirit . . . in that invisible power of God

(10)  Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness." 

The missing word in verse 10 is "spirit" as in "Now if Christ's spirit is in you . . ." It is what is known as an elipsis.

(11)  Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you."

So Christ which is the spirit of Christ is in us. That invisible power which moves us to righteousness is in us.

[Molly]

  interesting asides about feet;

  the earth is the footstool of God

   the seed of the serpent will bruise the heel of the woman's

seed...and the woman's seed will crush the head of the serpent

under it's heel.

   Jesus feet annointed...

   our feet get dirty from walking about in the earth

   even with sandals on.

  disciples instructed to 'shake the dust from their feet.".when

  leaving a place the Good News was rejected

  Jesus has to wash our feet..or we have no part in HIM.

    thy word is a lamp unto my feet

Rev 3;10  - I will make them come and fall down at your feet,

   and acknowledge that I have loved you.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

--Psalm 23


Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!