What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[Tony N]

Tony--

Thank you for that study on satan a few posts up.

You are welcome, Molly!  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.


"righteousness"

G1343
δικαιοσύνη
dikaiosunē
dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.



G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).



Romans 8:30
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



[for they shall be] "filled"
G5526
χορτάζω
chortazō
khor-tad'-zo
From G5528; to fodder, that is, (genitive case) to gorge (supply food in abundance): - feed, fill, satisfy.


G5528
χόρτος
chortos
khor'-tos
Apparently a primary word; a "court" or "garden", that is, (by implication of pasture) herbage or vegetation: - blade, grass, hay.



John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

My computer time is a bit limited, as my wife is in the midst of doing our taxes...  :popout:

A quick reply to the beginning of your 2 part post to me...

Dear Willie, my question was very plain and very simple: If Satan is in our flesh, then how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get before God for God to have a discussion with their flesh? And how did Job's flesh and the Sabean's flesh get sent on a mission from God to destroy Job. How did the flesh bring forth the fire from heaven, the mighty wind to blow over the house the children were in, the robbing of all Job had?

How much simpler can I make it? The problem is this: The question above confronts your theology that Satan is in our flesh as being bad theology.

First, I do not claim "satan" (adversity) is exclusively in the flesh (carnal/natural state)  of man... IT is found also in the Creation that man had been given dominion over by YHVH, as well...

SIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

Satan is masculine/male gender in the Greek New Testament.

I am admittedly not an linguist, nor a scholar in Greek or Hebrew, however in my studies I have come upon commentaries made by scholars of both which include these observations:

Gender is not attached to this word "satan".   Matter of fact...  In Greek, it is my understanding that CONTEXT determines (but does not REQUIRE) the use of pronouns which are presented in English, they do NOT appear in the Greek as pronouns.

That is incorrect, Willie. They do appear in Greek all the time. Here is a list of the pronouns in Greek:
(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/pronoun1.gif)

And the pronouns in Greek have gender to go with the noun they refer to:

(http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/pro-noun/autxx.gif)

Tony, I stand corrected... at least about the existence of Greek pronouns... thats what I get for relying on a 63 year old memory (what was I thinking?  :wacko2:)... The pronouns do exist... but whether or not they indicate Gender is the question...

I will try to backtrack where I read this (and I KNOW that I have, for questions came up concerning pronouns before in other discussions), but (again relying on the "old" memory), as I recall, ...the very same Greek terms can be translated he, she IT, they, them, etc...

As I humbly said and again confirm, I am NOT a linguist, neither do I claim to be a scholar... As far as "bad theology"...

You must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...  :wink1:

peace bro...  :icon_king:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[Tony N]

Willie stated:
You must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

SIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

But sin is never called "the adversary of man" in the Bible. So I am not beholden to have to believe that statement. The Bible however does say that death is an enemy. But what does this have to do with Job having Satan in his flesh? It doesn't.

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

MEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Maybe you missed my response but I stated this concerning your statement above just today:

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stones into bread:
Mat 4:3 "And, approaching, the trier said to Him, "If you are God's Son, say that these stones may be becoming cakes of bread."

The trier was not there and then the trier approached Him. Now then if the trier was already in Christ's flesh then how was it not with Him and then was with Him? If your scenario is true then words have no meaning.

Take care! And stay happy. Laugh alot. It is good for helping cure the cancer. P.S. I just read today that taking 1 tsp of  baking soda in a glass of water in the morning on an empty stomach alkalinizes the body making cancer impossible to be in such an environment.

[Cardinal]

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

:cloud9: Just a short aside.....

Blessed are they which do hunger (the bread) and thirst (the wine) after righteousness (Christ) for they shall be filled......

Don't remember what thread it was in, but regarding the 2 cherubim you asked me about......

Moses/left/cold wind/apostle/Word/bread  

                      plus

Elijah/right/hot wind/prophet/Spirit/wine

                    equals

              The Son of glory

Just as it takes the joining of a hot and cold wind to produce a whirlwind, so too does it take the Word/bread and the Spirit/prophet to produce the mature full measure of the Son in our midst. This is why it says the foundation of the church is built upon the apostle and the prophet. The joining of the two, eating of the bread and the wine in the light of the candlestick, is true communion, ie. the means by which we remember Him, or re-member/form His body. Paul said, how long must I stay with you until Christ be formed in you.

To commune with God, is to meet Him the way He said to meet Him, and He told us to meet Him in the cloud. This is the cloud of meeting, ie. the glory cloud between the two cherubim.

If two or more of you are gathered in my name/nature, there I AM in the midst of you. This is why God the Father spoke on the mount of transfiguration, THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED; HEAR YE HIM, because the pattern shown exposed the pattern of the Son in glory, with the two it was given to sit at His right and at his left. The Son that is produced from the eating of the bread with the wine, the Son of the revelation, is the Son that we are to hear.

He said to Peter's revelation that He was speaking to the Son of the living God (who disappeared/was translated into the CLOUD and His flesh was no more), that thou art  Peter, which means, "little rock". Well by definition, a piece of sand is a "little rock". A pearl is made by a "little rock" being covered upon; His Spirit which is love, covers a multitude of sins.

Paul said that he would not be uncovered, but rather covered upon, that corruption might be swallowed up of incorruption. And upon THIS ROCK (this revelation that we are as sand needing a covering), I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not stand against it. No wonder then, that the gates pf the city which is above, are pearls or that He is the pearl of great price. Blessings....

[claypot]

Bottom line IMO is, is I don't think God or Satan or the angels are anything like we think they are. And maybe they are everything like we think they are too.

Think about it, when we start using more of our brain we will see how ignorant our current beliefs are. It just makes sense. We are so in the dark on all these issues. It's like listening to toddlers talk of what makes a car run. Some can be so serious and fight for what they believe while others just speak from their imaginations.

I look at all our words here at Tentmaker and abroad and wonder what we will think of them in 1000 years. Will we laugh or cry?

cp

[Molly]

We might not be getting anywhere, but I think we are praising God with all our silly words.

At least he knows we care enough to do it.

So, we'll still be arguing [reasoning] but on a higher level.

Have to pass the time some way...:Sparkletooth:


When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

[sparrow]

I look at all our words here at Tentmaker and abroad and wonder what we will think of them in 1000 years. Will we laugh or cry?

I was going to say we'll probably cry!  :sigh: but then thought better...

yeah, I plan on laughing.
:icon_flower: :happy3: :HeartThrob:  :happy3:

It wouldn't make sense to cry.
We do the best we can with what we have at the time.
Me thinks there will be laughter. (and relief!)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony...  :laughing7:

Jumping on when I can...  :cloud9:

You have avoided and danced all around what I asked you Tony... Do you stay up late at night and PRACTICE stubborness?  :laughing7:

Willie stated:

You must first deal with that which James 1:14 says... (which you have not), and CHRIST's address of PETER as SATAN (which you have not)... before you can claim MY current observance as "bad theology"...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

SIN is the adversary of man, found in his (first birthed) NATURAL state... and SIN emerges from the desires and promptings of the Flesh/Carnal mind, as noted in James 1:14 and Rom 7:23...

But sin is never called "the adversary of man" in the Bible.

You continue to throw up smoke screens of futility bro... And what about the PETER="the rock" +  PETER="SATAN" issue?  ...got an answer yet?  :dontknow:

For  :CryBaby: out loud Tony!

It doesn't matter that SIN is never specifically called "the adversary of man", Tony...   Paul plainly noted HIS adversary [Rom 7:17], which is that which is WARRING within HIS MEMBERS [Rom 7:23] against HIS mind (which is ALIGNED with the LAW) [Rom 7:20] and this is resultant because of HIS CONSENT that the LAW is HOLY, JUST and GOOD... [Rom 7:16]

Do you not WAR with an ENEMY Tony?

SIN is the transgression (or adversary) of the LAW which results IN DEATH!  ...consequently... SIN = Adversary of MAN... for it is the ENEMY which sends him to his DEATH... The WAGES of SIN is DEATH... Rom 6:23 -- DEATH occurs in WAR... War according to Paul is SIN occuring IN the MEMBERS... Rom 7:20 /Rom 7:23

:omg:  Do you think anyone or ANY THING which sends you to DEATH, is NOT also your enemy and/or adversary -- Tony?  :mshock:

Do you think that the soldiers in ANY war, do not consider the opposing country's soldiers, ...the ENEMY?  Do they consider those soldiers as ADVERSARIES?

Or is it just DEATH that might or might not result?  And even then at whose hands does that DEATH occur for them?  Their friends? Neighbors?  Or is it the truth their death might indeed occur at the hand of their (must I repeat the "E-word"?)... yes, ...at the hand of their ENEMY?

So I am not beholden to have to believe that statement. The Bible however does say that death is an enemy. But what does this have to do with Job having Satan in his flesh? It doesn't.

More ridiculous standpoints... If DEATH is resultant from SIN.. the SIN is equated as an ENEMY (toward us) which manifests DEATH...

DEATH would not even BE an ENEMY if it were not for SIN... so SIN is the actually ENEMY which eventually leads us to the other...

Earlier Willie stated concerning James 1:14:

MEN by NATURE are ADVERSE to GOD... which is WHAT JESUS overcame... it was HIS FLESH that prompted Him to "turn the loaves into bread" after a 40 day fast... It was over the NATURAL [flesh] that the SPIRITUAL WORD of God] OVERCAME, and found victory... For CHRIST did NOT ...SIN... and ALL MEN with the exception of Him, fall into it the same way: (James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED, when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of his OWN LUST, and enticed [trapped].

Maybe you missed my response but I stated this concerning your statement above just today:

Are you sure it was the flesh of Christ that prompted Him to turn the loaves into bread? By the way, that is not much of a feat to turn loaves into bread since the loaves already are bread. My bible tells me it was Satan, not His flesh who tempted Jesus to turn the stones into bread:

More irrelevant sarcasm at an obvious mistake of mine... :rolleye: which doesnt address the point...

:laugh:   But in Actuality, that IS a pretty darn good laugh at my expense, Tony... can I join in?   :laughhand:

The biggest difference between us brother, is that I am able to, and DO admit my errors, and really DO wish to find correction, even though at times it is difficult to do so...

You on the other hand bro... avoid addressing the subjects... and in that, ...erect sarcastic strawmen (turning "loaves" into bread  :laughing7:) and smokescreens (subtly proposing SIN as NON ADVERSARIAL to man) ...in the which you are in hopes that these shall adaquately distract the convo, to spare you from addressing the flaws within your current observations...

It remains to be seen if you shall figure out with your "satan" as a being THEOLOGY" (which notes Peter as a two-fold entity, ...(1) "satan" [Matt 16:23], and at the same time, ...(2) the rock upon which CHRIST would build His Church" [Matt 16:17]... both unveiled in the same CONTEXT...  :mshock:) ...How these TWO can both be simultaneously true...  :wacko2:

peace bro...  :icon_king:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[peacemaker]

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6)

Some argue that the Satan in Job is to be interpreted as referring to a supernatural being of evil, which they themselves believe.

Many today agree with this conclusion, that is, there is a supernatural evil being whose role it is to tempt mankind to sin. Be careful that you do not entertain this thought in it's entirety,  as:

"The evil imagination is the personification of sin; undoubtedly, the natural inclination in all men."

This appears to be what Willie was saying, to me!

By what means is the temptation carried out by Satan, that is distinguished from the temptations prompted by one's own heart, or that of others?

There is nothing in the Scriptures which indicates that the heart of man requires an external prompting to do evil.

Events outside of human control, like all natural disasters; volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, floods, tornados, hurricanes, lightening and thunder – sometime affect people by chance. And, sometimes it's an act of God, himself!

Job did not consider, himself – to have been touched by the hand of a supernatural evil being called Satan. Rather, he said; "Have pity on me, have pity on me, O you my friends, for the hand of God has touched me!"  (Job 19:21)

When faced with difficulties, do you say to yourself, or perhaps, to others – for it is written!

peacemaker

[Tony N]

The writer of Job also says it was God that brought all the evil upon Job:

Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house. Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.

So even though Satan went forth from God's presence and brought the Sabeans against Job and he also smote Job with evil boils etc. the buck stopped with God. God did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What Job feared most came upon him. What Job feared most was GOD and the dealings of God are what came upon him. But his experience is the pattern for the double portion, for Job received double. Blessings...

[Sarah]

Proverbs 8

1 Does not wisdom call out?
      Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights along the way,
      where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

3 beside the gates leading into the city,
      at the entrances, she cries aloud:

4 "To you, O men, I call out;
      I raise my voice to all mankind.

Making wisdom a women which speaks, stands, walks, hates, and give birth isn't any different than making adversity an Adversary which talks and makes whirlwinds and moves tribes and enters Judas and becomes Peter. Adversity is within and without.

God says to Adversity: consider Job.

Adversity replies to God: He serves you because you won't let me at him.

God says: I will remove my protection.

Adversity says: I will get him.

God did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

Yes, God is in control of adversity.

[Tony N]

Dear Sarah, thanks for the thoughts.

Adversity:
H6869
???
tsarah
tsaw-raw'
Feminine of H6862; tightness (that is, figuratively trouble); transitively a female rival: - adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: ad·ver·si·ty 
Pronunciation: \ad-vər-sə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·si·ties
Date: 13th century
: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune

H6882צרעתי    צרעי
tsâr‛îy  tsâr‛âthîy
tsor-ee', tsor-aw-thee'
Patrial from H6881; a Tsorite or Tsorathite, that is, inhabitant of Tsorah: - Zorites, Zareathites, Zorathites.

H7854
satan
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: 1ad·ver·sary 
Pronunciation: \ad-və(r)-ser-ē, -se-rē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·sar·ies
Date: 14th century
: one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy
— ad·ver·sari·ness noun

As one can see, adversity is not the same as Adversary.

Adversity did not come before God in Job's day.  Satan came before God.

Satan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

So there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

[peacemaker]

Satan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

So there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

... And he showed me, Joshua the high priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh,—and, an adversary, standing at his right hand, to accuse him ...

That's right! As there is no definite article preceding "the" Hebrew word "satan."

Just an observation  :dbook:

peacemaker

[Tony N]

The Septuagint (LXX) has the definite article. The definite article is not used nearly as much in Hebrew as it is in Greek. Not having the article in Hebrew does not prove/disprove anything.

(Bishops)  And he shewed me Iosua the hie priest standing before the angell of the Lord, and Satan stoode at his right hande to resist him.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

(Darby)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

(KJV)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

(KJV+)  And he showed7200 me (853) Joshua3091 the high1419 priest3548 standing5975 before6440 the angel4397 of the LORD,3068 and Satan7854 standing5975 at5921 his right hand3225 to resist7853 him.

(LITV)  And he made me see Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

(LXX)  Καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι Ἰησοῦν τὸν ἱερέα τὸν μέγαν ἑστῶτα πρὸ προσώπου ἀγγέλου κυρίου, καὶ ὁ διάβολος εἱστήκει ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ τοῦ ἀντικεῖσθαι αὐτῷ.

(RV)  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to be his adversary.

(YLT)  And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him.

[peacemaker]

The definite article is not used nearly as much in Hebrew as it is in Greek. Not having the article in Hebrew does not prove/disprove anything.

You can easily unsubscribe at any time, as:

"A place of warmth, comfort, and affection is, also, called Home."

Having "the" article does not prove a thing, but it does matter what is in the house!

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

The writer of Job also says it was God that brought all the evil upon Job:

Job 42:11 All his brothers and all his sisters came to him and all his acquaintances from before, and they ate bread with him in his house. Then they condoled with him and comforted him over all the evil that Yahweh had brought upon him. Each of them gave to him one kesitah, and each, one pendant of gold.

So even though Satan went forth from God's presence and brought the Sabeans against Job and he also smote Job with evil boils etc. the buck stopped with God. God did it even though Satan did it because Satan is under God's control.

Tony... God is SOVEREIGN... all that takes place is as HE DECLARED it would... nothing good OR evil, has ever taken place which He did not ordain by that DECLARATION to be so...

When GOD Declares... He uses HIS WORD... His WORD speaks nothing but TRUTH... When men walk the earth, their lives are already KNOWN and DECLARED... therefore... no matter how you or I might view the subject of "satan" ...it is as DECLARED...

People wish to demote and reduce the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of God, as if He is just "informed" of what is to be because He can "see ahead" in time what will happen... such is quite short of truth...

That GOD has a FOREKNOWLEDGE of ALL EVENTS before they OCCUR, means that they CANNOT manifest otherwise.  If they should, then HIS "foreknowledge" is WRONG, and there is IMPERFECTION thereby, found IN HIM...

So ALL events that occur in the Heavens and earth, are according TO His Foreknowledge... those events as they occur, do not dicatate WHAT His FOREKNOWLEDGE, ...IS... His FOREKNOWLEDGE dictates what events shall occur...

"satan" (Adversity/adversary) is as UNDER the CONTROL of GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE as are ALL other THINGS...

"satan" (whether observed as a PRINCIPALITY or a BEING), is something which GOD brought forth... and manifests according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD...

Okay Tony... S___ or get off the pot...  :laughing7:  Answer me brother!

You continue to avoid explaining your "satan -- as a being THEOLOGY", concerning Peter...

JESUS CHRIST Himself noted:

...(1) Peter as "satan" [Matt 16:23], and on the same occasion,
...(2) Peter as the "rock upon which He would build His Church" [Matt 16:17]...

Both these (within minutes) were spoken in the same CONTEXT on the SAME OCCASION...  :mshock:) ...

How can these TWO, ...both be simultaneously true of "Peter" Tony? ...  :wacko2:

One holds Peter as the "father of LIES"...

One holds Peter as the "foundational rock" upon which TRUTH is established...

peace bro...  :icon_king:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[willieH]

willieH:  Howdy pod-na!   :happygrin:

Main Entry: ad·ver·si·ty 
Pronunciation: \ad-vər-sə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·si·ties
Date: 13th century
: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune

H6882צרעתי    צרעי
tsâr‛îy  tsâr‛âthîy
tsor-ee', tsor-aw-thee'
Patrial from H6881; a Tsorite or Tsorathite, that is, inhabitant of Tsorah: - Zorites, Zareathites, Zorathites.

H7854
satan
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Main Entry: 1ad·ver·sary 
Pronunciation: \ad-və(r)-ser-ē, -se-rē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ad·ver·sar·ies
Date: 14th century
: one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy
— ad·ver·sari·ness noun

As one can see, adversity is not the same as Adversary.

:laughing7: :laugh:  Please Tony!

ADVERSITY is that which proceeds FROM an ADVERSARY!

That which proceeds from an ADVERSARY is ...ADVERSITY!  :mshock: :thumbsup:

These terms are INTERCHANGEABLE and BY NECESSITY ...EVER connected... as much as  WOOD & WOODEN... or METALLIC METAL...  :laughing7:

Words can be an exercise in futility, if OPINION is held in higher esteem than TRUTH...

How far NORTH can you go on the earth, before you are heading SOUTH?  :laughing7:

How is it that you can GO WEST and end up in the EAST?  :happy3:

If you can go NORTH enough to be heading SOUTH, is SOUTH thereby NORTH of itself?

How SMALL is truly SMALL or, how LARGE is actually LARGE?

Words can be spoken into such ridiculous sentences that they can sound nonsensical... and yet bear TRUTH...  Because it is a FACT that I CAN head West and eventually end up in the East...  :Whistle:

Adversity did not come before God in Job's day.  Satan came before God.

This is even more ridiculous bro... The boils, losses of family, possessions, etc are evidences of ADVERSITY which was brought upon JOB by that which was ADVERSE... that which is ADVERSE, is an ADVERSARY.

Satan can stand:

Zec 3:1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary."

How many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet"  :laughing7:

So there was the messenger and there was Satan standing to the right of the messenger and Satan was his adversary.

Again Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY...  :grin:

GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

And ADVERSITY can find GOD as "ADVERSE", for it stands in OPPOSITION to GOD...  :dontknow:

It's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[Tony N]

Willie, Satan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

[Sarah]

Satan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

I think Willie was saying that God was the adversary of adversity.


Satan is also accuser which is more applicable to Zechariah 3. It seems Joshua was in filthy clothes and therefore satan was accusing him of not being worthy to complete the task set before him. This sounds very familiar. This in my opinion is the most 'beingness' one can get with satan. It is certainly a spirit that comes against the mind of man. But it is also this attribute that makes me think satan can't be an individual being because all men face this 'accuser of the brethern'. I have lived with this for many years in my youth, and even today this will attack at times. If this is the Satan, well then he's spending an awful lot of time on me.

[Tony N]

Howdy Willie,

Just because adversity proceeds from the Adversary does not mean in Job 1:6 that adversity came before God.

Job 1:6 There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary" (Zec.3:1).

The above verse shows that adversity was not staning at his right but Satan was and that Satan was his adversary.

How many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet" 

I think Satan only has one leg to stand on. This is because when he was bruised by the heel of Christ gangreen set in and his leg had to be amputated in the hospital in hell.  :laughing7:

In the Concordant Version The Hebrew AMAD is translated:
to-stand 3x
he-stands 9x
he-stayed 4x
he-stays 2x
he-stood 8x
stand! 8x
standing 43x
stay! 1x

The point is that some here say Satan is a concept, not a being. But Zechariah 3:1 dispells that notion because Satan is standing next to a person and is that person's adversary.

Again Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY... 
GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

Where in the bible does it say that God is the Adversary of adversity?

And even if there is a verse (which I doubt) what would that have to do with the fact that in Zechariah 3:1 that Satan is standing next to Joshua as his adversary, that this has to do with God being an Adversary to adversity? Nothing. So why bring it up? It just muddies up the water.

It's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...

I'm not into numbnut word games.

Adversary and adversity is not one and the same thing.

Adversity: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune
Adversary:  one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy

[claypot]

I am so thankful for a God who can even turn the frustrations and anger of people into good.

cp

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

Willie, Satan is not the Adversary of adversity for if that were the case he would be against adversity.

First bro, I do not maintain that "satan" is a defined person or being, rather is a position in opposition to another position.

I did not say that "satan" was the adversary of adversity... I said the word means the same thing...  That which is adverse is an adversary... And in the sense of HOLINESS, that GOD is the Adversary of UNHOLINESS and vice-versa.

This is the whole point bro... "satan" is a word which describes and ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY, irregardless of position, and is not a particular "being" rather it is a position in regards to another position which is in OPPOSITION...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2:

[willieH]

willieH:  Hello there, ...brother T!   :happygrin:

Howdy Willie,

Just because adversity proceeds from the Adversary does not mean in Job 1:6 that adversity came before God.

Job 1:6 There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

(CLV) Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary" (Zec.3:1).

The above verse shows that adversity was not staning at his right but Satan was and that Satan was his adversary.

How many legs does "satan" have to stand on?  The word "standing" in this text, is AMAD - #H5975 - which is used both LITERALLY and FIGURATIVELY in Hebrew... the word also carries meanings such as ABIDE, ARISE, DWELL, ESTABLISH, ORDAIN, RAISE UP, etc... it is not confined to "standing" as "on 2 feet" 

I think Satan only has one leg to stand on. This is because when he was bruised by the heel of Christ gangreen set in and his leg had to be amputated in the hospital in hell.  :laughing7:

In the Concordant Version The Hebrew AMAD is translated:
to-stand 3x
he-stands 9x
he-stayed 4x
he-stays 2x
he-stood 8x
stand! 8x
standing 43x
stay! 1x

The point is that some here say Satan is a concept, not a being. But Zechariah 3:1 dispells that notion because Satan is standing next to a person and is that person's adversary.

Again Tony... the word "satan" is even used in the WORD in conjunction with God, for HE IS the ADVERSARY of ADVERSITY... 
GOD stands OPPOSED to ADVERSITY... therefore He is the ADVERSARY or OPPONENT of it...

Where in the bible does it say that God is the Adversary of adversity?

And even if there is a verse (which I doubt) what would that have to do with the fact that in Zechariah 3:1 that Satan is standing next to Joshua as his adversary, that this has to do with God being an Adversary to adversity? Nothing. So why bring it up? It just muddies up the water.

It's all numbnut word games bro... ADVERSARY and ADVERSITY are positional notations of the SAME THING...

I'm not into numbnut word games.

Adversary and adversity is not one and the same thing.

Adversity: a state, condition, or instance of serious or continued difficulty or adverse fortune
Adversary:  one that contends with, opposes, or resists : enemy

The AMERICAN FLAG "stands" for FREEDOM... which "LEG" does it use Tony?  :laugh:

An enemy is that which presents itself as an ADVERSARY to another, ...which, to the ONE to which the ADVERSARY has presented itself, is thereby facing the ADVERSITY which this particular "ADVERSARY" represents...  :thumbsup:

As I said... "satan" is a positional word describing a position that one is in... not a "person" on a necessarily negative assignment...  :laughing7:

Believe what you will bro... as with any TRUTH of Scripture such as UR, no amount of back & forth can reveal to the other...  We can both argue till we are both blue in the face, and nothing shall change (and btw... we are ADVERSARIES, presenting ADVERSE positions, which when defined are in ADVERSITY to the other!  :laughing7:)

I really have no problem with your belief of "satan" as a being (illogical as it is)...  :grin:

You really are saying in a nutshell -- that 2 words which are inseparably "connected at the hip" are not not definitions of each other, ...much as people argue that they wish to DISCUSS and not DEBATE... both these words define the other...

I aint gettin any younger brother T... are you going to answer my question about Peter in regards to "your belief" of "satan" or not?  :dontknow:

How was he both "satan" (father of lies) and "the rock" (foundation upon which TRUTH is placed)? ? ? ? ?

Guess you just don't have an answer -- eh?  :dunno:

peACe...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:gamer:  willieH   :Peace2: