What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[Tony N]

Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.
cp

Dear cp,
So you believe Adam was a human being? And do you believe Eve was a separate human being who was Adam's wife?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony... :hithere:

When the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

The sons of the Elohim were not in Job anymore than Satan was in Job.

As I said to Ice, Tony... it is just a matter of perspective... You hold that "satan" is a being, and therefore your perspective is that "satan" is a SENTIENT entity with an agenda... I see "satan" as it is... a principality within the makeup of ALL men born in Adam...

Furthermore, let us define that "Elohim" is YHVH within this context... for in verse 7 YHVH is indicated.  :dontknow:

I did not say that "the sons of Elohim were IN Job"... I said that the principality of ADVERSITY ("satan") is in ALL the SONS of YHVH and is PRESENT whenever and wherever they are PRESENT...

Willie, what if the sons of the Elohim didn't have flesh? What if they were spiritual beings?

First, there are no such thing as "What if's", brother T... There only IS ...what IS...

Second, the "sons of ELOHIM" ...DO... have flesh Tony... you my friend, are a LIVING example!  :idea2:

And besides, "what if's" are not the point bro...  If you read the context... an HEDGE was about JOB... which "hedge" is GOD... that "satan" (adversity) could not affect...  Adversity is a matter of THE FLESH brother... and IT affects the Spirit... for IT ENCLOSES and imprisons the SPIRIT of man, and separates the spirit from GOD... until FREEDOM is created (the TRUTH shall MAKE you free), from within, via the REVELATION of CHRIST in each of us, in DUE TIME...

Job 1:6-9  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.  (8)  So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.  (9)  Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, Does Job fear Elohim gratuitously?

Job was not present when the sons of Elohim stationed themeselves before Yahweh.

So you assume brother T... If JOB is a SON of GOD (which he IS), then he came before YHVH... You and I also are in this presence Tony. 

You are viewing this (the SONS of GOD "presenting themselves") as an EVENT (or "meeting") (IYO)... which it is NOT (IMO)...  as I see it: it is a statement of FACT, that whenever the SONS of GOD are PRESENT before YHVH... (which we ALWAYS ARE), that ADVERSITY ("satan") is present as well amongst us...

Let me add that the SONS of GOD, (in my observation) never "station themselves" before YHVH... YHVH "stations US" before Himself... For there is NEVER a moment in which we are NOT PRESENT before YHVH, and... that our "presence" is a manifest act of GOD Himself, which is NOT generated by US...

You are welcome to believe otherwise...

And I seriously doubt that Job's flesh would cause the Sabeans to come against him and take all he had and doubt that Job's flesh, the (according to you) Satan in his flesh caused fire of God to come out of the sky and destroy his things etc. etc. etc.

"satan" did not "cause" anything my friend... IT (whether percieved as an entity or principality) cannot MANIPULATE GOD!  That IT shall cause GOD to REACT!   :mshock:

GOD brings Himself by the foundational makeup of His essence, against that which is ADVERSE to Himself.  In other words... ADVERSITY is ADVERSE to GOD... due to Who and Who and What HE IS!

When I was born, or you were born, had we done anything to deserve a destiny as SINNERS?  Is it not the DECREE of GOD that our destiny is outlined to be so, even from BIRTH in INNOCENCE?

What motivates any ROBBER (sabeans) to ROB?  Is it not the ADVERSITY within them?  The DESPARATELY WICKED Heart being at the center of who they ARE? (Jer 17:9)  WHY are our hearts DESPARATELY WICKED Tony?  Is that not a decision which has been made by YHVH? 

Come--on!  :omg:


The WILL of GOD is in ALL THINGS... to include "satan" in what ever perspective you percieve "satan" to be... otherwise,  IT would NOT EXIST... for ALL THINGS are By Him and ...FOR HIM... and are thereby part of a PROCESS which GOD is making manifest.  He is SOVEREIGNLY PERFECT... which means to me, that NOTHING occurs without His "stamp of approval"... nor without a PURPOSEFUL INTENT which brings about the manifestation of HIS WILL to come to PASS in ALL THINGS...

If you take a moment, and examine all that happened to JOB... it was ALL done by GOD... If you will re-read a few passages such as: 

Job 1:11... this is the proposition that GOD shall be the one that "touches ALL that JOB has"... and that said "touching" would theoretically cause JOB to curse GOD to His face...  :dontknow:  and,

Job 1:16 -- the FIRE of GOD fell from Heaven  Tony, and GOD's "FIRE" nor anything which emerges from Him (which is ALL THINGS) are not PROMPTED by anyone or anything BUT HIMSELF! ...Try,

Job 2:2 -- Tony... "put forth THY HAND now, and TOUCH his bone and his flesh, and he will CURSE THEE to THY FACE"

Don't you see Tony?  That ADVERSITY can only TOUCH us, by the ACT of GOD?  DEATH could not  and DID NOT, come against CHRIST, until YHVH REMOVED Himself... (hedge)...

GOD ...IS... a consuming FIRE bro... and His FIRE falls from Heaven upon us all... What do you think -- War, Aids, Cancer, Heart disease, Hurricanes, Floods, Eartquakes, etc... are?  You think these to be random  meaningless SORROWS?  That just kinda drop THEMSELVES upon men for centuries, immersing them in SUFFERING for NO REASON?  :mshock: ...Please!  There is INTENT within our suffering Tony... and it shall, as it did with the Only Begotten of us... end IN GLORY!  :bgdance:

Sorry, but GOD does NOTHING which can be considered as RANDOM in His Creation... ALL things have within them HIS INTENT... because ALL THINGS are OF Him, BY Him and FOR Him brother Tony... (Col 1:16)

Doubt is a (albeit negative) powerful thing which you are welcome to engage at your choosing, bro... I choose otherwise... the examples we find in Job is a spiritual tale which notes EACH of our experiences...

Every man that adheres to FAITH in CHRIST, is a "JOB" bro...  and shall find ADVERSITY attacking that experience in ALL facets of his/her existence... as it did with JOB...

The restoration which occured for JOB, is a Heavenly one brother... for ALL men LOSE EVERYTHING sooner or later... as did JOB... but the GLORY is found in the RESTORATION, and in the PERSERVERANCE in which we remain throughout those sufferings...

Peace...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[Tony N]

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

[gregoryfl]

Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

[claypot]

Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.
cp

Dear cp,
So you believe Adam was a human being? And do you believe Eve was a separate human being who was Adam's wife?

In my fleshly mind I do yet in my spiritual mind I don't.

As in Adam all die.......

rom5.12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,


Tony you wrote.....

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

I have asked you to explain several things to me from your way of thinking and I could have easily said that your explanations were very confusing too. It is so easy to ask another questions and then pick the answers apart till they look ridiculous. I believe we do this with Jesus, the Word. It is called crucifixion.

Tony you are only seeing one side (your side) of this multifacted creation of God. Do you see that there possibly was a very human man and woman named Adam and Eve who ran around a garden and probably made whoopie and talked with talking snakes and then can you see that Adam and Eve and their story are used to describe something else too, something deeper and more spiritual?

cp

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WW --  :grin:

The way I read it the meeting with God was in heaven.
Jesus said He was the first one that ever ascended to heaven.
Therefore Job could not be present in heaven during the meeting with God.
Anyone present at that meeting is a spiritual being.

:2c:

Where (chapter/vs) is it indicated that "a meeting" took place WW?   :dontknow:

And where (chapter/vs) is it indicated that this took place, ..."in Heaven"?  :dontknow:

The "DAY" that the "sons of God" came before Him is in the "DAY" in which ALL GENERATIONS of man (sons of God) appear before Him (Gen 2:4 / 5:1-2)


In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[claypot]

Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

Ron, that is good! I think of Moses lifting the serpent up on a pole to save the people who looked upon it. Sounds strangely familiar doesn't it?

cp

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tony...  :icon_king:

Don't mean to be confusing... just offering my view... you are welcome to do with it what you will...   :cloud9:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to take give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

This is getting confusinger and confusinger.

I certainly mean no offense to you bro, but have you considered that part of the "confusinger" is possibly, ...YOU?  ...for we, if presented with a truth, cling to our tradition ("satan" as a being is not only esteemed by Christians, but the majority of men, not even followers of CHRIST), it effectually renders that TRUTH of NONE EFFECT -- Matt 15:6 / Mk 7:13

That GOD removes His TOUCH is the removal of the "HEDGE" which protects for in His TOUCH is Healing as CHRIST demonstrated many times...  CHRIST is the RIGHT HAND of GOD... but there is a LEFT HAND as well...  :dontknow:  For we are made in HIS IMAGE...

I have cancer in my body Tony... I do not deduce that any being called SATAN has infested me with this disease... It is a product of the manifestation of ADVERSITY found during the course of my life, and that which is DESPARATELY WICKED, and ADVERSE by Nature to my Creator... that has brought it about.  Though my SINS are forgiven, does not mean I shall not reap what I sew in this life...  And even though there is no notation of JOB ...DOING... things adverse, does not mean he was without it in his heart at times, but didnt manifest it in action.  For verse ONE says:  There was a ...MAN... in the land of UZ whose name was JOB...

ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, JOB included...

What is that which "eschews evil" in us Tony?  Is it not GOD, in us?  Do WE, of OURSELVES, abstain from evil?  NO WAY!  Only the Holy Spirits work within ANY given MAN, can OVERRIDE the NATURE of that man... for of ourselves, we are all "desparately wicked in heart"... JOB was a part of the "ALL"...

That JOB had not done adversely (actions), does not mean that He had NOT THOUGHT to DO adversely... 

I fear God (respectfully) and "eschew evil" (abstain from purposely practicing it)... but that does not mean that I am without ADVERSITY, nor am immune to battling it within ME... even when I am not a willing participant...

Just as PAUL noted in Rom 7:23:  "I see another LAW ...within my MEMBERS, ...warring... against the LAW of my mind, and BRINGING ME into CAPTIVITY to the LAW of SIN which is ...IN... my... MEMBERS...

He also said this prior to that, bro:  Rom 7:16-17 ...if then, ...I DO... that which I WOULD NOT, I consent unto the LAW that it is GOOD... now then, it is NO MORE I that ...DO IT, but the SIN [adversity] that DWELLETH ...IN ME...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Ron...  :Sparkletooth:

Willie,

Something I have dared not even consider before, but is this an example of what you are talking about?

1Ch 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."


That Satan isn't a personal being at all, but simply whatever is adversarial. Here, God became a satan to David, an adversary. Is this sort of what you are sharing with Tony?

Ron

YES Ron... that is exactly it...  :cloud9:

That which is ADVERSE is "satan"... and IT is not a "being" it is a PRINCIPLE...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[Tony N]

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

[Sarah]

Satan is personified as being in the book of Job, just as wisdom is personified in proverbs. It seems that God provokes adversity to test Job; The Sabeans, a fire, Chaldeans, a wind, and finally boils. If you notice that at the end of Job, no 'being' is given recognition for Job's downfall except God himself..."And they showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." In reality it was the adverse things that did these things to Job, God just removed His hand of protection.

[Sarah]

It wasn't the 'adversity' in Job that did these things, just adversity.

[claypot]

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

Tony, IMO God has to do very stupid things in very stupid ways to get His message to us. To make a man like Job and his friends and loved ones and to create a being, whether physical, spirtual, a metaphor, a personified essence or whatever like Satan is just that, a work of God. It is not a huge leap for me to imagine God talking the way He does about how Satan works especially if Satan is my carnal nature.

Tony, you must not have any kids. I have a lot of kids and I am constantly teaching them through personifying thoughts and ideas of mine. I am constantly using exaggeration and hyperbole and imagination and parables to teach them. This works amazingly well. Yes, sometimes direct facts are used and they work too but the most important and hardest things seem to be received better when taught not through the physical but through stories.

If God wanted to get across to me how my adverse nature works in accord with His grace I can't think of better ways to teach me than to show me exactly what I am made of through symbolic lives like Adam, Eve, Job and even Satan. To look at these lives as only physical people living physical lives leaves me wanting.

cp

[claypot]

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

[gregoryfl]

Bingo Sarah!  :thumbsup: I think that at least adds to the picture.

Ron

[peacemaker]

Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

[gregoryfl]

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

Isn't this the case with Job too. Think about it. Notice that just before this appearing before God what Job is said to do with regard to his children:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Right after this, we see all these things come on Job, and he says this interesting, insightful statement:

Job 3:25  For the terror of which I meditated has come upon me, and that which I had feared has befallen me.

The adversary in him indeed was used by God, who became the expression of that adversary to him to bring him to the place of seeing God unlike he had never seen him before.

Ron

[claypot]

Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

PM, didn't understand even a smidgen of what you wrote but sounds like there is something there!

cp

[reFORMer]

I have cancer in my body Tony... I do not deduce that any being called SATAN has infested me with this disease...

(The term "Satan" and various understandings about it has been exhaustively hung out to dry on a couple of other lengthy threads.  Having followed it before, I personally do hope not to descend into a long revisiting of the topic again here.  We seemed to get so far and no more.  Some seem almost obsessed by the need to reiterate their own knowledge and conclusions if we stray too near any idea of a Satan.  In the following writing I'm not trying to establish an exclusive viewpoint on the question of Satan's existence as a distinct being of some sort.   I have not yet satisfied myself about the various orders or types of spirit beings or things, demons, evil angels, including "works" (of the devil,) to be able to speak with any but a limited authority.)

My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off from whom they're praying.  I also have a friend that got thrown out of a class in an Assembly of God Bible College for saying that cancer can be caused by demons.  Some men greatly used of God in the gifts of healings rebuke the devil, binding and commanding him and demons to leave before they pray for the sick and afflicted.  To curse the roots of these things, to cast these spirits out of the bodies of those they afflict is the right of the least child of God.

Nothing changes or remains the same except by means of spirit.

We are the flesh and bones of Christ Jesus.  He was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.  Eagerly desiring His manifestation will be rewarded with the destruction of the devil's works.  Satan has nothing in Christ so we must enforce that in our being members of His body.

[claypot]

Dear Willie, you didn't really answer my question which was:

Willie, if Satan is within the makeup of all men then he was in Job. So did God tell the satan in Job to give Job boils and tell the satan in Job to take away all he had himself?

Did the satan in Job call down fire from heaven on his animals, cause the winds to topple the house on his kids, cause the Sabeans to ransack his property?

I was re-reading your words and you know what? If satan is how I percieve him then your description above makes a great deal of sense and in a way I have not looked at it before.

My adversarial nature (satan) does wreak havoc amoungst my thoughts and feelings (animals, household, and even kids). My adversarial nature can be likened to a Sabean ransack of, again, my household. You don't see it but I believe the Lord was saying that my enemies are within me when He said a persons enemies are those of his own household.

cp

Isn't this the case with Job too. Think about it. Notice that just before this appearing before God what Job is said to do with regard to his children:

Job 1:5  And when the days of the banquet were completed, Job sent and purified them, having risen up in the morning, and offered sacrifices for them, according to their number, and one calf for a sin offering for their souls; for Job said, Lest perhaps my sons have thought evil, and cursed God in their minds. Thus, then Job did continually.

Right after this, we see all these things come on Job, and he says this interesting, insightful statement:

Job 3:25  For the terror of which I meditated has come upon me, and that which I had feared has befallen me.

The adversary in him indeed was used by God, who became the expression of that adversary to him to bring him to the place of seeing God unlike he had never seen him before.

Ron

Ron, this is good stuff to meditate on. Thanks.

cp

[claypot]

Maybe the Bible is such a wordy book because it is God's way of intentionally giving us something that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. I believe God could have given any single and simple truth in very few words yet He has given us works (the Bible, nature, creation including the cosmos) that gives seemingly infinite possibilities. Giving us all this material to work with and then giving us the ability to individually think and imagine makes for a almost unlimited host of ideas and interpretations.

No wonder we have so much to talk, argue and get frustrated with each other about.

My point is that we should not get too obsessed by our own personal interpretation because it is only one of many. We should just share our views in humility, seeking to aid another and grow in ourselves.

cp

[Cardinal]

My eyes have been opened and I have seen spirit things, entities of spiritual substance that look like giant "daddy-long-legs" spiders or tentacled large octopus-like things intermeshed with a physical cancer on a human victim.  This thing was making a pumping motion.  That is my personal experience more than once.

I know of brothers that have rebuked cancer spirits and seen them drop off for whom they're praying. 

:cloud9: I have seen the same things reFormer. What you saw was making a pumping motion trying to pierce the "heart", ie. the sting of death.

Add to that, the Lord taught me that the carnal mind is like a spider. A spider web is like a fowler's net, in that it catches up our soul in soulish ties, and when enough have been used to slow down our ascent/growth in the Spirit, it then comes in and paralyzes it's victim so it can suck the very life out of it. O death, where is thy sting? Thus, to be carnally minded, IS death.

Sin, missing the mark of the mind of Christ as revealed by the Word and the Spirit, is what creates these soulish ties, until the victim loses the will to struggle against it finally. Sin satisfies for a season. Blessings....

[jabcat]

My point is that we should not get too obsessed by our own personal interpretation because it is only one of many. We should just share our views in humility, seeking to aid another and grow in ourselves.
cp

As EP said (even though he's left the building), "thank you.  Thank you very much".  :cool:

[peacemaker]

Satan, or "an" adversary, as in an ordinary noun that describes people, as "the" article.

So many still refuse to face up to the clear teachings of Scripture - that human beings sin and must take responsibility; bearing the consequences for their own actions, thoughts and motives. And, often times, those of others.

"An enchanted phantom is a lifeless idol; mere deception."

Satan lives in the middle of the earth connected by a pipeline to the middle of the Bermuda Triangle, where he and his demons grab hold of ships and airplanes and drag them down into the pipeline where they build flying machines for the demons so they can fly around and confuse people, and sometimes they beam people up so that the can't open them up and go inside and possess them. Ghosts are just demons who possessed people and the people died, and they don't have any way to contact the Bermuda Triangle demons to come and get them, so they're stuck here!
(This was brought up on another forum)   :megashock:


Revised translation by peacemaker, using Webster ... 

The adversary lives in the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individuals center of symmetry or sphere of mortal life, as distinguished from spheres of spirit life, connected by pumps, valves, and control devices for conveying liquids, gases, or finely divided solids given individual advancement and development. Especially, to fill organizational needs, equal to the distance between one called Old and one called New, or a site of numerous reported disappearances. Where the adversarial being of Greek mythology takes hold of a large seagoing vessel - one propelled by power and heavier than air, having fixed wings from which it derives most of its lift, pulling with much effort or pressure on the apparatus for navigating, so that the adversarial beings of mythology can soar with sudden extreme emotion, winning popular acceptance of supporting members, and no one can close their power or authority. The seat of the false image, like in a photographic negative, possessed the life and intelligence of the people and they died, not having a way to contact the spheres of spirit life - they are stuck with a dry, dead, severed twig, or slender branch – as a piece of wood gathered for fuel.

... according to various definitions!

PM, didn't understand even a smidgen of what you wrote but sounds like there is something there!

cp

CP, think of where the adversary lives, as in the center of symmetry, or the heart which pulls on the apparatus for navigating; the mind. Then, consider the teachings of the worldly churches, or organizations; Satan and Hell.

You will see more than a small amount of saltwater, as in possessing the life and intelligence of the people.

peacemaker

[reFORMer]

Until we have manifest victory over death we have a ways to go no matter how advanced or significant we might be.  It is a lie to say we have complete victory over the devil while still in corrupting flesh.  As long as something other than God reigns over us we don't yet have the liberty for which we are destined.  We may be walking in the light on the present place along the path where we now are, enjoying God's approval and the anointing of the Holy Spirit; but, until the last enemy is defeated we are not home.

"Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood  is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption." (1 Co 15:50, CLV)  Then it talks about not everyone necessarily dying, but all must be changed.  Now "corruption" is the decay of a corpse, so it is not in death.  The corpse cannot put this on, though, "...the dead will be roused incorruptible." (vs. 52, CLV)  This total victory must include the physical body.  "...this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality." (vs.53, CLV)  We who are alive are mortal, we are "corruptible" but not to the extent of "corruption" of a corpse.  It is the living who, though mortal, must put on immortality.  What God does is by faith, so we have more to hear!