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[jabcat]

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Malista;
Definition
  especially, chiefly, most of all, above all

Translated Words
  KJV (12) - chiefly, 2; especially, 4; most of all, 1; specially, 5;
NAS (12) - especially



When I shared UR with a pastor in the past, part of his argument for ET was along the lines of, "it's only those that are saved...see this scripture?  Jesus, Savior, especially of those that believe"?  Huh?  :mshock:

Okay.

So, along those same lines how do you guys and gals like this?  See if you can follow the logic, or if this looks dishonest to you.   Caution;  don't everybody run out and buy a ISV translation all at once...you're likely to hurt each other  :wink1:


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Editor's Note: This response answers a reader's question concerning the ISV's rendering of the Greek superlative adverb μάλιστα, not merely how this adverb is rendered in 1 Timothy 4:10 .

A question about 1 Tim. 4:10 — Q:  Why did you choose to render μάλιστα as "that is," rather than "especially"? You seem to have rendered it "especially" in several other contexts,

A:  Actually, we rendered μάλιστα (the superlative neuter plural of the adverb μάλα, which means "very much") as "especially" in EVERY occurrence in the ISV NT, except for 1 Timothy 4:10. See the list below. The word connotes the highest point in the extent of something, distinguishing its object apart from other things being discussed in the context, and is often rendered "most of all", "above all", or "chiefly", not just "especially".

Q:  So far I've found no other translation nor any lexical source that lists "that is" or "specifically" or anything of that sort as an alternate rendering.

A:  On a layman's level, you'll see this nuance in the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon. See also page 252 of the Analytical Lexicon of the Greek NT under its listing for μάλιστα: "μάλιστα adverb (superlative of the adverb μάλα [very much, exceedingly]); as the highest point in the extent of something most of all, especially, above all (AC 20.38)" [Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. (2000). Vol. 4: Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament. Baker's Greek New Testament library (252). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.] See also Louw/Nida's Lexicon under entry 78.7: "μάλιστα: a very high point on a scale of extent—'very much, especially, particularly, exceptionally.' 'they were especially sad at the words he had spoken' Ac 20.38."

Q:  I realize the "usual" translation invites a "universalist" interpretation,

A:  Does it? We don't think so. The word μάλιστα is singling out "those who believe" (Greek "πιστῶν") as the specific portion of "all men". He is the savior of all humanity, the Apostle is saying, but then he modifies the term "all humanity" by adding a modifier, which is that Jesus is the savior to the benefit of a "very high point on a scale of extent" — in other words, to the benefit of a SUBSET of "all men". That subset is the group that believes. Given the narrowness of the scale of intent demonstrated by this superlative adverb, we didn't feel that using the adverb "especially" suited the context of μάλιστα especially well (uh, pardon the pun...). So we used "that is" instead.

Q:  But doesn't the choice you've made amount to "taking sides" theologically?

A:  Quite the opposite. Since we don't think μάλιστα implies any universalism, but rather is specifically REFUTING universalism (since Jesus is called the savior of those who believe[!] and not just of all humanity), we're attempting to remove the taking sides that takes place if one renders μάλιστα as "especially" in 1 Timothy 4:10. Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).


:sigh:

[reFORMer]

I'm especially glad there's a hell for people like this!

(Is it because of my age that I was instructed to never use "especially," that the proper word is "specially?")

[martincisneros]

Yeah, I've seen a new edition of Strong's with a white and blue cover, or something like that, that's a reaction to Universalists.  If I'd had the money at the time, I'd of hogged copies of the older beige version so that I could more easily show people the hypocrisy.

[jabcat]

I'm especially glad there's a hell for people like this!

:pointlaugh:

Yeah, I've seen a new edition of Strong's with a white and blue cover, or something like that, that's a reaction to Universalists.  If I'd had the money at the time, I'd of hogged copies of the older beige version so that I could more easily show people the hypocrisy.

Seriously?  I need to look for that :pitiful:

[WhiteWings]

A:  Quite the opposite. Since we don't think μάλιστα implies any universalism, but rather is specifically REFUTING universalism (since Jesus is called the savior of those who believe[!] and not just of all humanity), we're attempting to remove the taking sides that takes place if one renders μάλιστα as "especially" in 1 Timothy 4:10. Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).

So they used "that is" because "specially/especially" leaves a possible interpretation for UR. That isn't taking sides?
Anyway I would like to read some article about the Greek word.
Or an explanation that shows that even with "that is" the UR meaning still stands.

[WhiteWings]

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It seems to contradict the other verse; and that's not possible.
How is that verse translated jabcat?
Can that verse in anyway been read as 'only the believers' when read in context.
Besides the argument that those that don't believe will at some time believe and then wil be saved anyway.

[WhiteWings]

Knock knock, me again.

Jabcat, how are the 2 verses translated in your famous CB?

Our position is that this fine distinction should come out in a commentary series. It's too nuanced to explain in a footnote.

I wonder what that really means.
Is it difficult to translate this verse and keep the original meaning?
Or is it difficult to translate out UR so it needs extra explaining it's not UR?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Sad but not surprising. Wonder how much else they tampered with, to keep it from saying what it actually says?

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Sad but not surprising. Wonder how much else they tampered with, to keep it from saying what it actually says?

They clearly are ETs that hate UR.
http://isv.org/catacombs/on_hell.htm

[Paul Hazelwood]

Of course they are taking sides.

Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).

Typical rewriting of scripture.

It's the same turd in a different wrapper. 



Ga 6:10 Consequently, then, as we have occasion, we are working toward the good of all, yet specially toward the family of faith.


And of course then,  we are only to do good to those who believe.

[WhiteWings]

I also see a positive side to the change in translation and the new Strongs Martin mentioned.
Those that oppose UR also seem to read the UR message in the English translations. Therefore they need to get pro UR verses tweaked.

:sigh:

[sparrow]

It's odd how some people go to such great lengths trying to snuff out the good news.

Sometimes I wish God would just reach down with a humoungous hand and pick up these people  :mshock:  and put them in the palm of his hand and just look at them and say "what are you doing?! why are you trying to snuff out my good news??"

I can't help it. I really do wish God would do stuff like that sometimes... just to FREAK people out.

oooo better be careful what I wish for..

*runs and hides*   :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Knock knock, me again.

Jabcat, how are the 2 verses translated in your famous CB?

Our position is that this fine distinction should come out in a commentary series. It's too nuanced to explain in a footnote.

I wonder what that really means.
Is it difficult to translate this verse and keep the original meaning?
Or is it difficult to translate out UR so it needs extra explaining it's not UR?

Unfortunate news on this.  The Christian Bible, IMO, sounds even worse.  It states  ""we have come to always put our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all kinds of humans, that is, of the Believers."  ....

On the other hand, here's what it looks like in the Greek interlinear....

zao       hos         emi         sOtEr        pas       anthrOpos               malista                pistos     
           who          is          Savior      of-all       humans                 ratherest        of believing ones
                                                                                               especially

Maybe they get the variation from "ratherest"....as in, "rather (that is), those that believe".  Now, where "ratherest" comes from, I'm not sure...I certainly don't see that in any definitions anywhere...and supposedly the translators of the Christian Bible were changed from what they saw scripture actually saying, not putting their own slant on it...HOWEVER, IMO, it would be impossible for a human being to not apply some of their own bias/filter/understanding in a translation, unless it were something God miraculously wrote as He did the originals...then that wouldn't be a translation at all, would it?  That would be a transcription..
                                                                                             


       

[WhiteWings]

If you don't believe you simply are unsaved.
I think that's also the view of UR.
"testified in due time" and similar verses.
Many think God is a fable to put it mildly. The don't believe He exist.
You probably don't believe in pink flying elephants. But you will if you personally see them.
I think it's the same with the unbelievers. When they see God they not only believe but they simply know.
And then they suddenly fit in that verse.

That's my opinion. Not very scholary  :laughing7:
So a little feedback please. Some verses to support your view would be cool.

[jabcat]

So you're saying, the difference between "are" and "will be", right?

[WhiteWings]

Yep.

That is even common among many ETs.
You are sorta born unsaved.
But when you turn to Jesus you are saved.
The main question is how long do you have to turn to Jesus.
ETs say until the moment you die.
I say/ask, billions of years after you died.

Few idea's that support that thought imo:
a] Those that live before Jesus was born can never have turned to Him.
b] Many that lived after Jesus was born truely didn't hear of Him.

The only question I have about that is: what about those who heard of Jesus. Who could have studied the Bible. But didn't.

Then we have the parable of the lost sheep.
Or the one of the son that left home and after years returned. The son (=we) led a wicked life but the father (=God/Jesus) almost got an heart attack from happines because the son returned (from sin)
Would the father be less happy if the son returned after 20 (=after death) years instead of 10 (=during life)

But all of that is just my interpretation. I can make things fit. Just like ETs. But that doesn't make it right....
Perhaps we have to agree this verse isn't direct/clear enough to prove anything on it's own?

[jabcat]

Especially Believers....From Hope Beyond Hell

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.  (1Ti. 4:9-10)   This must be a very important passage to warrant such a powerful introduction and closing.  Understand the importance of this critical passage. If God is the Savior exclusively of those who believe during their earthly existence, as our tradition teaches, why is this passage saying something different? The difference between "exclusively" and "especially" is significant; to interchange these two concepts is to contradict Scripture.
What does "especially of those who believe" mean?  Christ saves us from our sinful nature and transforms us into His image (Ga. 4:19) so we may shine as lights in the world (Mt. 5:13-16). Thus, believers are "especially" saved because they have been justified by faith, and are presently working out their salvation as God empowers them (Ph. 2:13).
None of this changes the fact that God is still the Savior of those who do not yet believe. Once His righteous, just, and purpose-driven judgments have run their course, death will be destroyed, all will be made alive, and all will be subjected to Christ. Then God will be all in all (1Co. 15:22-28). He is, in an ultimate sense, the Savior of all men, (unbelievers and believers) but especially, at present, of believers.  The key word is malista, translated "especially." Could it also mean "exclusively"? The only way to know is to observe how it is used in Scripture. It occurs 12 times [8 listed for brevity]. As you read the references  below, try substituting the word "exclusively" and see how it fits.  [I HAVE ALSO ADDED "THAT IS"]

They wept and fell on Paul's neck sorrowing most of all [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] for the words which he spoke (Ac.20:38).
I have brought him out before you, and especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] before you (Ac. 25:24-27).
  Let us do good to all, especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] to those who are of faith (Ga. 6:9-10).
All the saints greet you, but especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those who are of Caesar's household (Ph. 4:20-23).
There are many...deceivers, especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those of the circumcision...(Tit. 1:10-11).
Bring the cloak and the books...especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] the parchments.  (2 Ti. 4:13)
Reserve...for the day of judgment, and especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those who walk according to the flesh (2Pe. 2:9-11).

Could you accurately substitute "exclusively" for "especially" in [ALL] these passages?   [Was it consistent?]   If you could not here, on what grammatical or contextual grounds can you do it in 1Ti. 4:10 God... is the Savior of all men, especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] of those who believe. (1Ti. 4:10)?   This text, rightly understood in light of the other proclamations in this section and the evidence presented elsewhere, offers solid ground to believe what it says. God is the Savior of "all men," especially (and not exclusively) of those who believe. Let us command and teach this!

[WhiteWings]

Especially Believers....From Hope Beyond Hell

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.  (1Ti. 4:9-10)   This must be a very important passage to warrant such a powerful introduction and closing.  Understand the importance of this critical passage. If God is the Savior exclusively of those who believe during their earthly existence, as our tradition teaches, why is this passage saying something different? The difference between "exclusively" and "especially" is significant; to interchange these two concepts is to contradict Scripture.

I would fully agree with that if God inspired the translation you are looking at. But He didn't. So now the questions are:
- Is the translation correct?
- Does it matter for UR?

What does "especially of those who believe" mean?  Christ saves us from our sinful nature and transforms us into His image (Ga. 4:19) so we may shine as lights in the world (Mt. 5:13-16). Thus, believers are "especially" saved because they have been justified by faith,

That is similar to what I wrote.

and are presently working out their salvation as God empowers them (Ph. 2:13).

When the working out stops isn't mentioned.

None of this changes the fact that God is still the Savior of those who do not yet believe.

True. But at some point of time He starts judging be cause He's also a judge. He can't be a judge when He's never in the courtroom..

They wept and fell on Paul's neck sorrowing most of all [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] for the words which he spoke (Ac.20:38).

Both makes sense to me.

I have brought him out before you, and especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] before you (Ac. 25:24-27).

The exclusively sounds more logical to me

Let us do good to all, especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] to those who are of faith (Ga. 6:9-10).

Especially fits best.

All the saints greet you, but especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those who are of Caesar's household (Ph. 4:20-23).

I don't understand that verse because Ceasar is surrounded by pagans.

There are many...deceivers, especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those of the circumcision...(Tit. 1:10-11).

Especially fits best. My feeling says :including" would be even better.

Bring the cloak and the books...especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] the parchments.  (2 Ti. 4:13)

Especially

Reserve...for the day of judgment, and especially [EXCLUSIVELY/THAT IS] those who walk according to the flesh (2Pe. 2:9-11).

Are the rightous present during judgement?

[jabcat]

I just looked in the Companion Guide to The Christian Bible (1991) at the 12 times malista is used in the NT.  11 times they translate it as especially....Acts 20:38 "especially pained by the word";  Acts 25:26  "especially before you, King Agrippa";  Acts 26:3  "especially since your are knowledgeable";  Gal. 6:10  "yet especially for the household of the Faith";  Phi. 4:22  "especially those who belong to Caesar's household";  I Tim. 5:8  "especially his household, has disowned the Faith";  I Tim 5:17  "especially those who are continually laboring";  2 Tim. 4:13  "especially the parchments";  Titus 1:10  "especially the ones who belong to those who have";  Phlm. 1:16  "as a dearly loved brother, especially to me";  2 Pet. 2:10  "and especially those who are going after the flesh";     And drum roll please...#12  I Tim. 4:10  "who is the Savior of all kinds of humans, that is those that believe".....

Even though I really like this translation in general, this just doesn't strike me as either totally accurate and/or without human filter/bias.  Why that ONE verse, out of all 12, if it's not based on someone's particular belief system?  :dontknow:.  It may be correct, but I got'ta wonder....I can see they might do this, since they translate "all men" as "all kinds of humans".  That sort of then flows together with "that is"...sort of....but then where does the "all kinds of humans" come from, if also not from a personal/particular belief system?

[jabcat]

An interesting thing to do is to go to Biblegateway and look at the verse.  Out of 20 English translations, by far the translation is "especially", and a time or two "mostly" or "most of all". 

A couple of translations malista caught my attention :happygrin:.

One for its interesting way of saying it...the New International Reader's Version says "Here is the saying. We have put our hope in the living God. He is the Savior of all people. Most of all he is the Savior of those who believe."  Hmmm...cool.

The other one is just a head shaker for me....the World Wide English version puts it like this,  "That is why we work hard and put up with troubles.  We trust the living God who came to save all peoples.  He makes a way for those who believe on Him".   Huh?   :mshock:   That is so far away from the literal Greek, why bother?  Or at least just say, "alright, here's the way we believe it"...

[WhiteWings]

Even though I really like this translation in general, this just doesn't strike me as either totally accurate and/or without human filter/bias.  Why that ONE verse, out of all 12, if it's not based on someone's particular belief system? 

Perhaps because of the sentance structure in the original Greek.
On their website they write that most translations are done with the rules of classical Greek. That's wrong because the koine Greek they used has other rules. Perhaps that's why many Bibles translate especially.
Just a thought.

[jabcat]

That is a good thought, one that I hadn't had.  Wonder how one would be able to view a copy of the Koine?  Now I'm off on another venture...that piques my interest. :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Did you know this?  From a Catholic website;  "Protestants claim an ownership of our book and claim to be responsible for its translation into the tongue of the people, but this is an error, two errors; the Bible is ours, and Catholics were translating it into the language of the people before Wycliff, Tyndale, Coverdale, et al. were born.."   There, take that!  And get your hands off their Bible  :laughing7:.

[WhiteWings]

That is a good thought, one that I hadn't had.  Wonder how one would be able to view a copy of the Koine?  Now I'm off on another venture...that piques my interest. :thumbsup:

http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/main.do
http://www.thechan.com/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,9/Itemid,6/
http://www.biblicalgreek.org/software/
Etc: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=koine+greek+NT+&as_epq=e+sword&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images


/EDIT
I think you will like:
Septuagint LXX Greek Old Testament with Strong's Numbers and complete parsing information.
Septuagint LXX Greek Old Testament in transliteration format.

[WhiteWings]

Did you know this?  From a Catholic website;  "Protestants claim an ownership of our book and claim to be responsible for its translation into the tongue of the people, but this is an error, two errors; the Bible is ours, and Catholics were translating it into the language of the people before Wycliff, Tyndale, Coverdale, et al. were born.."   There, take that!  And get your hands off their Bible  :laughing7:.

RCC kept the Bible 'hidden' from most people up until 40-50 years ago.
All in Latin. Kids at school studied from the Catechism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism
A popified "bible"  :laughing7: