What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[Tony N]

I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

PM, Good stuff, I mean it.

Tony, you are thinking some of us are teaching and believing that Jesus and all of us are satan possessed beings. You have helped me clarify what is being said in Scripture.

I think you are right and wrong, as I am most of the time! Satan was outside of Judas as he is of everyone in the sense that when he is not obeyed he has not entered. Satan can only possess as you are seeing possessed when a being obeys 'him'. I have had many ideas or thoughts within me that I have shunned. I would consider these thoughts of my brain and mind as outside of me in a sense while those thoughts, both good and bad, that I have obeyed, I would say have entered into my being.

Do you understand this, Tony? Could this be a way to view the entering in of satan into a person?

There is no way on Gods green earth that when Jesus said that a mans enemies are those of his own household (mt10.36), that Jesus was not indicating that a mans enemies or adversary (satan) are within each person. What is more in man than mans mind? Especially when you really see what Scripture is saying in what Peacemaker brought up....

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man....mt15.19

Dear claypot, I think I you need to rename yourself "goldenchalice" because you have lots of good things to pour out from your cup. O.K. enough butt kissing.  :laughing7:

The above verse of Matthew 15:19 is both literal and figurative. It is figurative in that people's hearts really, literally pump blood. So those things can't literally, physically find their origin in the kardia or blood pumping heart of a person. However, the heart is what keeps a person going. Stop the heart and the man dies. So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan. It just is what it is. "The flesh is enmity to God and indeed is not able to please God." (see Romans 8:7,8). This enmity is not attributed to Satan but to the flesh.

Hey Tony, I posted something a while back and did not see a response, of which I understand as I know you have a lot going on, but I will ask again if you don't mind. Here it is.....

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

[/quote]

Well of course there are things spoken of in the Bible that can be taken as both literal and figurative.
A literal group of believers can both literally be the ecclesia of God and figuratively the temple of God.
Peter, James and John were pillars, figuratively, yet literally they were *supports* in their respective group of believers. They were not literally made of stone as pillars are.

Christ died for all. That is literal. He did not figuratively die but literally died. Now the spiritual aspect of that is when Christ died, Paul stated that "all died" (2 Cor.5:14). In other words, when Christ died, all mankind were included in that death. Of course all mankind could not literally fit in Jesus' body as He hung on the cross.

When Jesus sits on the throne in the future, He literally will sit on that throne. Yet a sword will come out of His mouth. Now I really doubt Jesus was a sword swallower. And I really doubt a literal sword will come out of His mouth. Yet the sword figuratively stands for the words which will come forth from His mouth which will bring adversative judgment to those it is meant for.

Does that answer your question?

Disclaimer:
The above are just my thoughts. They are not meant to inflame or cause a fight or try to make anyone look bad. I'm not upset. I don't think anything less of those I converse with. I don't think I know it all.

[Tony N]

Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone will open the door and let me in.........Rev3.20

This is occuring within people. The standing and knocking are being done within yet the opening of the door is the key to entering or not.

Kapeesh?

cp

Dear cp,
Gosh, I sure hope you don't think I am picking on you or anything. So rather than stating the obvious I will state this, [bracketed words are mine]:

"Lo! I stand at the door [of the ecclesia in Laodicea] and am knocking. If ever any thould be hearing the sound (voice) of Me and should be opening the door, I shall be coming into [the ecclesia in Laodicea] toward him and I shall be dining with him and he with Me."

The phrase in Greek: "I shall be coming into toward him" is not in everyone's translation. People often get "I shall be coming into him" but that is far from the truth. The spirit of Christ is already within the one who would open the door to Jesus' voice. Since they both have the same spirit they both will fellowship with eachother.

This verse is so often missappropriated in evangelical services that it makes me want to puke. They state this verse that if you just ask Jesus to come into your heart He will because the bible states that He stands at the door (of your heart) and will come into your heart if you ask Him, as if that is what that verse is actually saying.

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote....

So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan.

I'm thinking that is exactly what Jesus is saying. Evil thoughts are adversarial (satan) to all that is of God and if these evil thoughts are acted upon then satan has entered in.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? jere17.9

Tony, are you thinking that Jesus was referring to a physical heart when He spoke of such things?

Sarah brought up Jesus calling Peter Satan. How do you think Peter was literally satan in Jesus' eyes?

Sarah, you wrote....

I don't concern myself with wheather the voices that tempt me come from within my own mind, or enter my mind from an outside source. I don't see how it matters, we still have an enemy.

The reason it matters to me is that I think the Bible is a living book for all people at all times, not for some people some of the time or for all people some of the time and so on. If the enemy is an individual entity that affects this person and not that person then I don't see all men as being talked about all the time in Scripture.

Sarah, I see all people like a drop of water from the ocean or an acorn. In a drop of water out of the ocean the whole ocean is present as in a single acorn I believe every oak tree that ever was and ever will be is in that one acorn. All the good and bad that make the oak trees what they are, are in the single acorn. It is what is nourished and strengthened that determines whether the oak tree lives or dies.

Let me add something here to everyone. You may have noticed I use the phrase physical literal or spiritual literal. I do this because I don't think we should take for granted that literal only applies to the physical which it seems almost all do. Literal means...

according with the letter of the scriptures b: adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual <liberty in the literal sense is impossible — B. N. Cardozo> c: free from exaggeration or embellishment <the literal truth> d: characterized by a concern mainly with facts <a very literal man>

I think the spiritual is ordinary construction in Gods world or in His home turf. Interpreting Scripture in the spiritual is totally free from exaggeration IMO and is concerned mainly and only with facts. Seeing all that Jesus and the Spirit dictated through Scripture, IMO, is the primary meaning of Scripture.

I say all this to say that when the word literal is used I see it will mean something different depending on where 'your heart lives'. If your heart and mind are in the spiritual realm then literal is that realm.

cp

[Tony N]

Tony, you wrote....

So it is out of the core of the person, that which makes the person tick, if you will, that all the evil thoughts emanate from. However, Jesus is not saying that the heart of man is the spirit of Satan.

I'm thinking that is exactly what Jesus is saying. Evil thoughts are adversarial (satan) to all that is of God and if these evil thoughts are acted upon then satan has entered in.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? jere17.9

Tony, are you thinking that Jesus was referring to a physical heart when He spoke of such things?

Just because the heart is deceitful and wicked does not mean Satan dwells within the human or his flesh or his heart.

I already wrote that he was not referring to a physical heart.

In the book of Job,Satan is portrayed as a being who is walking about the earth then going before God and reporting to him. He is also sent to persecute Job and report back to God. Hardly something called "flesh" could do that.

Sarah brought up Jesus calling Peter Satan. How do you think Peter was literally satan in Jesus' eyes?

In the Scriptures there is an adversary used as an adjective and THE ADVERSARY uses as a noun. And there is adversary with a lower case 'a' used as a noun. But it does not mean the lower case adversary is THE Adversary.

Mat 16:23 Now, being turned, He said to Peter, "Go away behind Me, satan! A snare are you to Me, for you are not disposed to that which is of God, but that which is of men."

Notice the lower case "satan"? In Hebrew this means he was an adversary, not necessarily THE Adversary. That means that Peter was not the spirit called Satan.

How could Satan always have been in Judas if he was not in Judas before he went into Judas?

[claypot]

Tony, you asked....

How could Satan always have been in Judas if he was not in Judas before he went into Judas?

I explained this is great detail already. I only know myself and I really don't know this that well either but here goes. I do not see myself as Satan possessed yet I am influenced by him. Until I give in to him in my mind to the point where I act out in my flesh that which he dictates, I don't think he has even 'entered' me yet when I give in to him then I would say that Satan has entered me.

You wrote.....

Just because the heart is deceitful and wicked does not mean Satan dwells within the human or his flesh or his heart.

Maybe I'm too naive but manifestations that are deceitful and wicked seem to be children of the wicked one and the wicked one to me is Satan. Just my way of thinking.

You wrote.....

Notice the lower case "satan"? In Hebrew this means he was an adversary, not necessarily THE Adversary. That means that Peter was not the spirit called Satan.

I totally agree and never said that Peter was the spirit called Satan. I think there was an adversarial thought process operating in Peter and Jesus called it what it was.

Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

[Tony N]

Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

Satan was a lier and a murder from the beginning.

He was created.

He was created to be the Adversary.

He is a spirit being and is invisible.

[claypot]

Tony, what is Satan the spirit to you? What are spirit beings in your opinion? Are they like physical beings only without physical attributes?

cp

Satan was a lier and a murder from the beginning.

He was created.

He was created to be the Adversary.

He is a spirit being and is invisible.

Amen Brother.

I see too that God made people (Adam) a bit marred (liar and murderous?) from the beginning. Coincidence? Hmmmmmmm. Tony, you do make me think!

Hmmmmmm. You think God made us to be adversarial? It would be a good learning and growth technique, I'm thinking.

I know whatever causes me to sin is adversarial and invisible and very powerful.

cp

[Molly]

I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

[claypot]

I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

[Nathan]

I also see this idea of satan "entering" much like what happened in the garden.  Thoughts bombard us regardless if we're in a funeral or a wedding . .a church or a bar . . . they're always on the move . .seeking whom they may devour so to speak . . .the more you feed into those thoughts, the more they consume you. 

When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit . . someone has a thread . .I believe it's on this forum . .not sure . . .but it's dealing with the fact that the seed is in the fruit . . .it was fruit that Adam and Eve ate . .the seed that was in that fruit was carnality . .at least that's how I see it . . .The thing is . .nothing happened when Eve ate it.  It wasn't until Adam ate that all hell broke loose.

This speaks volumes to me in that if Eve is my mind . . .and she ate the fruit . . .nothing happens . . .that the thoughts in my mind have no power over me.  It's not until I willingly act on them . . .which is then saying my spirit is "letting" my mind take the lead . .which is never a good thing . . .and once "that" happens, then is when things go awry.  So the thought "entered" Judas . . .the anti-Jesus-remaining-free thought entered into Judas . .and he acted on it . . .

The thoughts themselves are not what defile you . . .it's how you handle them that makes all the difference in the world.

Philippians 4
7And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[Molly]

I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

well it's more of a waking meditation, since I've become sensitive to it.  So I watch more carefully.

We all have the ability to devastate another with our words.  There are some who use that ability like a club.  They like the power of it.  The more quick witted are very good at it, and often display their talent.  It's a kind of sparring for superiority.  I long ago noticed that this is easy for me to do.  I can flatten someone with a word, and make them laugh while they are bleeding.  But I would only use it in self defense.

Then I realized that silence was an option.  I no longer had to defend myself.  Once I choose silence, I could watch.

Once I started watching, I could see the spirit behind the act, almost like a cloud appearing in a clear sky.  Someone starts getting challenged by their own thoughts of inferiority, a perceived slight, or whatever, --and the cloud appears and they lash out.

This causes a spirit to enter into me to which I could respond.  Kind of like the school kids yelling, 'fight, fight, fight.'   But I don't open my mouth--I just watch it inside myself.  I deal with it in me.  I deal with the other with silence.  That puts it back on their own head.  Jesus never told those around him all he knew, and he never fought with them.  Like Nathan says, that feeds the wrong spirit.

I am trying to be more deliberate in my perceptions and actions.  I have nothing to defend anymore.




He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

--Acts 8:32

[willieH]

willieH: YO!  :afFro:

The Hebrew term "satan" means adversary/adversity... this is NOT a PERSON...

Matt 16:23  ...But He turned and said UNTO PETER:  Get thee behind me SATAN: thou art an offense unto me; for thou savorest NOT the things that be of GOD, but those that be of MEN...

Before Peter spoke ADVERSELY concerning the mission of CHRIST, he was PETER...

ONLY when he spoke on behalf of that which was CONTRARY/ADVERSE to CHRIST's mission, and ONLY THEN, ...was he addressed as "satan"... 

Was Peter "satan"?  CHRIST addressed him as "satan" did He not?  NO... what Peter SAID, was "satan" (adversity)

CHRIST moments before, ...had JUST NOTED that upon Peter's ministry would he establish His church, and that Peter was BLESSED! -- Matt 16:17-18

Would he be doing so (building His Church) on "satan"?  Did CHRIST just have a quick "change of heart"? ...Of course not...  What blurted out of Peter's mouth was ADVERSITY... He hadn't instantly turned from being BLESSED, to being the "DEVIL"!

Same thing with Judas... ADVERSITY entered into Judas' thinking processes which were NECESSARY for the Mission's success, ...he was not "possessed" by a "being" called satan...  He was in fact, a pivotal part of the accomplishment of SALVATION!  He was ORDERED by CHRIST to do so -- John 13:27

Judas didn't just "sneak out"... He was TOLD to DO as he did...

To me, this is a TRADITIONAL deception which to a degree allieviates US from blame via self-deception...

In the Garden, ...the NATURAL ADVERSITY within themselves is what made them decide to EAT... not some "talking snake".

The SERPENT is the NATURE within man to DISOBEY...

When evaluating what took place in the Garden:

Eve was recalling to herself that which GOD had said, which to begin with, was INCORRECT!!  ...she began by LYING to herself... for GOD said nothing concerning "not touching the fruit" only "not eating it" (Gen 2:17 -- Gen 3:2-3)

From her first self deception, Eve then deduced that she wouldn't die, but that she would gain KNOWLEDGE...

Sin is produced by the LUST of the FLESH in EVERY MAN [including Eve] (James 1:14), not by the persuasion of a mythical being called traditionally by RELIGION, ..."satan".

Is this not how sin works?  We in our sheepish and stupid ("brutish" - Jer 10:14) minds deduce on this level... "hey, to what degree shall Safeway be harmed, by me taking this ONE, CHEAP LITTLE candy bar?"  :rolleye:

Eve in Gen 3:6 (no "devil talking"):

(1) observes that the fruit looks good for food (lust of the flesh)...
(2) pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes)
(3) and a tree to be desired to make wise -- and ATE! (pride of life - enacted by DISBELIEVING the COMMAND of YHVH)

(see -- 1 John 2:16)

The deciding factor was PRIDE of LIFE, found in her disbelief of GOD's statement that she would DIE if she ate... no "devil" was necessary...

Only the PRIDEFUL self-deception from within her own NATURAL mind and fleshly desire was necessary, which in fact is INDICATED...

PRIDE

Prov 11:2  ...PRIDE cometh, ...THEN, ...SHAME...
Prov 13:10 ...ONLY by PRIDE, COMETH ...CONTENTION...
Prov 16:18 ...PRIDE goeth BEFORE ...DESTRUCTION...


Peace...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[IceDash]

I am training myself to 'see' satan entering people.

Perfectly nice people suddenly become sly and cunning and devise a way to go for the jugular.

It's a test.  It's only a test.

Don't respond in kind.   But, there is no need to continue to consort with them--until they are in their right minds again, if ever.

Judas was no choir boy.  He was already dipping into the till for his own benefit.  He even complains that expensive oil is wasted on anointing Jesus feet when the poor are in such need.  Did he have designs on that oil himself?

But, of course Jesus knew.  His putting a thief in charge of the money shows more his disdain for money than for the thief.

Molly, none of us are 'choir boys', that's for sure.

What do you mean you are training yourself to 'see' satan entering people?

cp

well it's more of a waking meditation, since I've become sensitive to it.  So I watch more carefully.

We all have the ability to devastate another with our words.  There are some who use that ability like a club.  They like the power of it.  The more quick witted are very good at it, and often display their talent.  It's a kind of sparring for superiority.  I long ago noticed that this is easy for me to do.  I can flatten someone with a word, and make them laugh while they are bleeding.  But I would only use it in self defense.

Then I realized that silence was an option.  I no longer had to defend myself.  Once I choose silence, I could watch.

Once I started watching, I could see the spirit behind the act, almost like a cloud appearing in a clear sky.  Someone starts getting challenged by their own thoughts of inferiority, a perceived slight, or whatever, --and the cloud appears and they lash out.

This causes a spirit to enter into me to which I could respond.  Kind of like the school kids yelling, 'fight, fight, fight.'   But I don't open my mouth--I just watch it inside myself.  I deal with it in me.  I deal with the other with silence.  That puts it back on their own head.  Jesus never told those around him all he knew, and he never fought with them.  Like Nathan says, that feeds the wrong spirit.

I am trying to be more deliberate in my perceptions and actions.  I have nothing to defend anymore.




He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

--Acts 8:32

but what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

[Molly]

but what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

The book of Job does treat satan as an independent being.



6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan  also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

      Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?

--Job 1


When God gives satan permission to come against Job, he loses everything.  But we see that satan is talking to God himself, accusing man, and asking to test him.  But, he can't touch Job without God's permission.




12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
      Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

[Sarah]

If the enemy is an individual entity that affects this person and not that person then I don't see all men as being talked about all the time in Scripture.

I did not say that this 'entity' affects only certain people, of course I believe we are all subject to it. My point was that we are all hung up on where the 'adversarial voice' comes from, an entity roaming about whispering in our minds, or a voice that is imbedded in each us already whispering to our minds. The fact is that it affects us all.

I personally think it is both, but, IMO when  Satan is addressed, it is not referring to a king-like entity ruling over demons, rather Satan is the personification of an adversarial spirit, which is more like a virus.

Someone made a point concerning a capital 'S'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think the hebrew and greek had capital letters.

[Tony N]

Judas was no choir boy. 

It is quite possible Judas sang in a choir. God has revealed to me that he was part of an ancient barber shop quartet and that this choir sang on the corners of streets in Jerusalem trying to raise money for the poor. He did this because people kept dumping their precious perfumes on his Master's feet. So he figured if he couldn't get Jesus to quit being so wasteful he could try to embarrass Him into stopping this waste.

Judas especially liked singing Old Lang Syne (in Hebrew of course).
He also liked singing "I'm Hung Up Over You."
And 30 Pieces of Silver on the wall was a fav.

[peacemaker]

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

It is obvious that you have adapted to the preconceived idea of a literal Satan, which is supported by a doctrine that you already hold to be true. But what sense is there in asking "If you are the son of God" if this entity is who you claim it to be? This challenge to prove He is the Son of God makes no sense coming from an entity, especially if an "entity" (demons, etc.) trembles in his presence – knowing who Christ is!

So, why is this tempter asking for proof?

Of course, man, himself, would have no idea because at that time they had not been given the Spirit, thus, prove if you are the son of God would be more apparent coming from them, and I doubt that Christ would have given in to some kind of "I dare you to prove it" within three temptations which derive from the ignorance of man's thoughts:

"Command that these stones become bread, cast yourself down on these stones, and give allegiance to me."

Consider this:

"... But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." (Mathew 26:63)

In addition, the temptations could easily have come from within Christ, himself –  "Not your will, but mine be done." And would have been persistent for forty days in the wilderness, given the fact that He was to be tested.

Personally, I see both; an intrinsic temptation invisible to others and an external tempter given the nature of man who having an outward appearance was visible by others (the writers). Although leaving it to you to ponder, perhaps, it was a frivolous, empty-headed, evil-hearted, high priest who commands under an oath of false pretenses who wanted to know if "Thou be the Son of God?"

Furthermore, if these temptations did not appeal to the heart of Christ as being consistent with that of every man, then there would have been no real temptation, nor the desire to overcome – "Not my will, but yours be done."

The temptations were imposed on the natural, as He was famished, subjected to the threat of death, and to the thoughts of taking possession of the promise; ruling over the Kingdoms of the world before the declared time of the Father.

Christ was given the power without measure to elevate himself. He could have called on twelve legions to deliver himself from the cross. But to do so would have resulted in his rejection of the Fathers Will, coveting that of his own. In my humble opinion – and without going into a full discourse on legions of demons, devils and Satan.

Is it just a mere coincidence that the disciples were looking for a physical rule and reign of Christ, as many do today?

peacemaker

[claypot]

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

I like that, it makes me think and what I think of is this. One day I entered into our family car and I was extremely preoccupied in thought. As I sat in the passenger seat my wife said to me "Where are you, you seem off in another world." I was but I came back from 'where' I was and felt as if I just entered the family car for the first time. 2 'enterings' as it were. One physical, one mental.

Could it be like Satan is in mans outer court and, if allowed by God and the person, he enters the holy places? There is the outer court Judas and the inner court Judas so to speak. Yes this would take spiritual eyes to see and understand but in my mind it is clear as cloudless sunny day. This makes sense to me because it is like Satan as a roaring lion going to and fro in the earth (the outer court of my being) seeking who he may devour (seeking how to get into the inner court).

cp

[Tony N]

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

It is obvious that you have adapted to the preconceived idea of a literal Satan, which is supported by a doctrine that you already hold to be true.

Well, maybe it is a preconceived idea supported by the Scriptural reality of a literal Satan.

But what sense is there in asking "If you are the son of God" if this entity is who you claim it to be? This challenge to prove He is the Son of God makes no sense coming from an entity, especially if an "entity" (demons, etc.) trembles in his presence – knowing who Christ is!

So, why is this tempter asking for proof?

That is Satan's modus operandi, to ask questions, to instill doubt as he did in the garden with Eve. It makes perfect sense to me.

Of course, man, himself, would have no idea because at that time they had not been given the Spirit, thus, prove if you are the son of God would be more apparent coming from them, and I doubt that Christ would have given in to some kind of "I dare you to prove it" within three temptations which derive from the ignorance of man's thoughts:

Satan wasn't given the Spirit either.

"Command that these stones become bread, cast yourself down on these stones, and give allegiance to me."

Satan was trying to give Jesus a short cut to world domination via Satan's way rather than God's way.


Consider this:

"... But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." (Mathew 26:63)

In addition, the temptations could easily have come from within Christ, himself –  "Not your will, but mine be done." And would have been persistent for forty days in the wilderness, given the fact that He was to be tested.

It doesn't say He tested or tried Himself but was tried by the Adversary.

Personally, I see both; an intrinsic temptation invisible to others and an external tempter given the nature of man who having an outward appearance was visible by others (the writers). Although leaving it to you to ponder, perhaps, it was a frivolous, empty-headed, evil-hearted, high priest who commands under an oath of false pretenses who wanted to know if "Thou be the Son of God?"

Furthermore, if these temptations did not appeal to the heart of Christ as being consistent with that of every man, then there would have been no real temptation, nor the desire to overcome – "Not my will, but yours be done."

The Adversary tried Him. He had to be tried to prove that He is the spotless lamb and not subject to sin. If anything it was to prove to mankind that He is sinless.

The temptations were imposed on the natural, as He was famished, subjected to the threat of death, and to the thoughts of taking possession of the promise; ruling over the Kingdoms of the world before the declared time of the Father.

Christ was given the power without measure to elevate himself. He could have called on twelve legions to deliver himself from the cross. But to do so would have resulted in his rejection of the Fathers Will, coveting that of his own. In my humble opinion – and without going into a full discourse on legions of demons, devils and Satan.

Yes? He didn't thus proving it is better to do it God's way rather than Satan's. Rather than take a shortcut He did it God's way. He showed He was sinless.


]quote]Is it just a mere coincidence that the disciples were looking for a physical rule and reign of Christ, as many do today?
peacemaker
[/quote]

Is it just a mere coincidence that Jesus is looking for a physical rule and reign as the discipled did?

In Job's day did a thought present itself to God concerning Job and since this sinful thought came to God can we therefore assume that God had Satan in His heart? Good Lord! Say it isn't so!

[peacemaker]

Tony

There is no doubt that Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, yet, "He overcame, and sinned not." Temptation does not make one sinful. And, sometimes, like Job, we are brought before king's (the ruler) and magistrates (a judge) by an accuser (devil) for a testimony.

"Godliness isn't about separating from sinful people; it's about dissociating from the sinful passions within our own hearts." :HeartThrob:

peacemaker

[reFORMer]

What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

Both.

This separating of our being from the physical is an commonly attempted methodology of people desiring to be "spiritual."  Suicide would be the most direct measure to assure this mis-guided goal.  A human is spirit, soul and body.  Jesus was manifested to bring about a complete salvation of our entire being.

It was the influx of professional "Word-smiths" taking Roman coins to support themselves as "Christian Priests" that corrupted Christian philosophy unto this day.  They were trained in Greko-Roman rhetoric, the art of using words.  Among other things, these orators who wore special robes would mount towers from whence to be better seen and heard.  They would take their well worn copies of Plato, turn to a well-marked passage and read.  Then they would expound on what they had read.  They would have a rhetorical structure to what they had to say.  The same structure is taught in seminaries today to preachers wanting to know how to make a sermon.  After the Diocletian persecution, in which any Christian considered a leader was murdered and all copies of Scripture were burned, Constantine normalized his paganized version of Christianity, making it an official religion of the Roman Empire along with other religions.  They adapted pagan temples for Christians to use.  They paid a priesthood.  The Christians had never had temples or priests.  We entered into God as habitation, our temple and we ourselves, members of one another, were and are the temple of God.  We are all of us Priests.  That is God's idea of what kind of man He would make in His image to have dominion over the works of His hands.  With this change came changes in doctrine.  The new "priests" brought Greek mysticism with them.

My body is not just a wrapper for the real me.  It is one aspect of the real me.  In my physical aspect I carry the glory of God into manifestation into this cosmos in various ways, like manipulating physical reality or giving voice to thoughts.  I glow in the dark.  I expect to come to a change by which my body no longer is a dying body.  It will become more and more a vehicle for displaying God in the physical realm.  Because I am now existing as a spirit, soul and, particularly, a body (even though it is a dying body,) I am considered to be among the living.

An early form of the so-called Apostle's Creed has us believing in "the resurrection of the flesh."  This is not like a cheap movie's re-animation of a corpse.  The realm of embodiment is one thing.  I do not bring food and water out of nothing.  They are outside of me.  The system of supply meeting the desires of every living thing is a demonstration of the "mercy" (lit.Hb., chesed) of God.  Things are apportioned to me as I need them in form that I can use to sustain this body's life.  Similarly, God's Word is broken into pieces that I can ingest and assimilate.  The food and water I use passes through me back into the world.  This ecological portrait of our embodiment realm could be much extended; but, it introduces the unmistakable realization that all that is physical is inherent in what our embodiment means.  It is "one" as similarly spirit is one.

Even with this shortened lifespan the human body is said to be replaced as many as thirteen times in an individual's life.  The molecules I was born with have been replaced numerous times.  I'm on my sixth or seventh brain and midway to my tenth body.  This makes clear that God doesn't need to recreate a resurrection body from its corpse, the molecules of which could be scattered into not only the four corners of the earth (yes, there are four corners,) but into at least the galaxy as well.  The resurrected flesh is a way that such a being can manifest.  The options for what forms in the physical the resurrected may occur are myriad.  Jesus resurrected blood cells accomplish miracles of healings today.  They emerge out of higher realms.  God has many gifts to give His holy ones.

your brother, James Rohde

[willieH]

willieH: Hi there Ice... :hithere:

but what about Satan talking to God in the begining of Job?

All this is, is GOD considering before us, the facets of ADVERSITY, and condescending in order that we may understand that He allows it to be such in our experience... more than a direct conversation with a being...

When the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

WHAT [imo] DOES NOT MAKE SENSE:

Why would GOD even bother to put us through this process, by creating an EVIL BEING far more powerful than we, which we are unable to see, hear or even percieve as present?   :mshock:

"satan" as a POWERFUL EVIL BEING, is an unfair and ILLOGICAL proposition in my mind... Make me do a battle which I CANNOT win, ...with an ADVERSARY that is OMNIPRESENT and which FAR exceeds me in power and which I am unable to even percieve with my senses OR even my heart that "it" is present to do battle with me!

If Eve in the Garden was subjected to this being and actually CONVERSED with it, why was this not the case with Adam as well? :dunno:

With the exceptions of the convo's with GOD and the "temptation" of CHRIST, ...Why do we ALL not have convo's with this guy?  Was EVE the only [eventual] SINNER to have had a clear and visible, "one on one" with "satan"?  :rolleye:  And why was the "serpent" not called "satan" in this conversation?

Why was PETER clearly called "satan"?  :dontknow:  There is no indication that "satan" had "entered" him... was he just plain "satan" and not actually Peter?  Is "satan" the foundational element of the early church? :rolleye:

When CHRIST had just moments before calling Peter "satan", had named him as the foundational element upon which he would build the Church?  :mshock:

And Judas is well able to justifiably BLAME "satan" and GOD as well, for being "set up" for the personal infestation of a being with whom he (Judas) was EXCEEDINGLY LESS in power as a man, ...to defer or reject!  ("satan" entered him without his consent! Why did "satan" ENTER Judas?  -- did "satan" ...enter... EVE?)  :dontknow:

In the Judgment, ...Judas could surely stand up and complain of "satan" actually entering him WITHOUT his consent!  And if this JUST arguement could have been made by JUDAS and was honored, where would the SALVATION of GOD stand today?  :mshock:  Where would that place us? ...LOST!

No, there is more, MUCH MORE, to this than some created "DEVIL" being the pivitol player in the realization of our SALVATION.   GOD uses His SONS in different capacities within the realization of HIS SALVATION.   Utilizing FIRST, His ONLY Begotten as the PERFECT  sacrifice... but using OTHERS to write Scripture witnessing of it, and to spread and preach this fact to ALL MEN...   Even using JUDAS (without his consent), who we are so quick to blame for his "betrayal", ...but readily welcome that "awful betrayal",  knowing that otherwise we would be YET without an escape from SIN and DEATH!  ...  :dontknow:

WHAT [imo] DOES MAKE SENSE:

What makes much more sense, at least to me... is that WE, are created as we are (NATURALLY ADVERSE to GOD) in order to realize the PURPOSE of GOD, which is to reveal to His Children, the Knowledge (difference between) Good AND Evil...  Rather than setting us up to battle a "being" that far exceeds our ability to cope with...

The belief that "satan" is a being, (IMO) is as mythical as "santa claus"... Within this subliminally lies the belief that this "person" has the same OMNIPRESENCE as GOD ("satan" everywhere, tempting everyone, etc)...  Sorry, but I shall not give place to that... I once did, and God has shown me different... You are welcome to embrace this as you do Ice, ...as is anyone else... and it is not my agenda to convince you otherwise...

You ask, and I give you my viewpoint, no acceptance or rejection is expected by me of that viewpoint.  :cloud9:

To me, FAITH is the gift that GOD gives us in dealing with the circumstances that GOD presents by using His WORD, regardless of whether "satan" is a being, or "satan" is the nature of man, IT is created as the vehicle with which we become AS is our Father... that being, ...to have the KNOWLEDGE of Good AND Evil...

And irregardless of our perception of "satan", ...via the study of God's WORD and prayer, we must come to the conclusion that "satan" is not to blame one way or the other, ...it was INTENDED that we KNOW and PARTICIPATE in ADVERSITY, that we might by comparison KNOW Who, What, and How, our GOD... IS...

What I see is mankind (especially the followers of CHRIST) as giving immense power and glory and to a non-existent being, and thereby adding one more element of ADVERSITY to our NATURE, instead of beholding that it is WE which bring ADVERSITY forth, and no "talking snake" or "invented horrific EVIL being named satan" is necessary in order for that manifestation to take place...

As I fall upon my knees, I whisper tearfully in my heart to my Father: 

"there is no 'DEVIL' that made ME do anything Lord"...  I did it Father... and so I confess MY SIN before YOU... and cast no blame upon anyone but MYSELF, ...asking YOU forgive ME for MY SINS... which I COMMITTED"

Now THAT (IMHO) is how we should CONFESS our SIN, ...anyone else is welcome to do otherwise (indirectly blame "satan") if they so choose...  :dontknow:

Peace...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:drummer:  willieH     :angelharp:

[Tony N]

Willie wrote:

When the SONS of GOD are present before Him, their NATURAL nature (adverse/satan) accompanies that presentation (amongst them)... It was in JOB and IS in You and I...

The sons of the Elohim were not in Job anymore than Satan was in Job.

Willie, what if the sons of the Elohim didn't have flesh? What if they were spiritual beings?

Job 1:6-9  There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.  (7)  Yahweh said to Satan, From where are you coming? Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, From going to and fro in the earth and from walking about in it.  (8)  So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.  (9)  Then Satan answered Yahweh and said, Does Job fear Elohim gratuitously?

Job was not present when the sons of Elohim stationed themeselves before Yahweh.

And I seriously doubt that Job's flesh would cause the Sabeans to come against him and take all he had and doubt that Job's flesh, the (according to you) Satan in his flesh caused fire of God to come out of the sky and destroy his things etc. etc. etc.

[WhiteWings]

The way I read it the meeting with God was in heaven.
Jesus said He was the first one that ever ascended to heaven.
Therefore Job could not be present in heaven during the meeting with God.
Anyone present at that meeting is a spiritual being.

:2c:

[claypot]

Reformer wrote......

My body is not just a wrapper for the real me.  It is one aspect of the real me.

I too do not play down the physical element of who we are. Its just that in American Christianity the spiritual seems to be played down quite a bit so my focus on the spiritual is my way of counteracting that.

The accusations in this thread sometimes IMO is like if someone asks you everyday if you like chocolate candy bars and then asks you why and then later walks away thinking that all you do is think about chocolate candy bars because that's all you talk about!!!

Another thought I had when reading the last few posts here is how reinforced I am in the belief that Satan, Job, Adam and Eve, the sons of Elohim and so on can be nothing other than the description of a person, a human being. To see us trying to explain it in a purely physical way most of the time or even a lopsided spiritual way feels like a crucifixion of sorts.

I still believe and see that the whole of Scripture is an explanation of God making man in His image. It is the blueprint. I see the physical, soulish and spiritual aspects of the whole invention and it is glorious.

cp