What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[sheila]

   Tony,

    those resurrected at the earthquake arose in this new

spiritual flesh..and entered the Holy city.....

   that was showing what happens to man when he is

   resurrected...Jesus Christ rose the same..and clothes us with

  His own flesh and bones...BUT WHEN YOU ENTER THAT

  HOLY CITY JERUSALEM ABOVE..THERE IS NO TEMPLE

  IN IT...YOU LIVE IN SPIRIT FORM WITH SPIRIT BODY


  the Word of God[which is spirit] That come in flesh

  returns to that city[Jerusalem Above] the spirit returns to God

  of which there is no temple in it

  in other words..the New Earth enters the Heavenly spiritual

   realms. Glory to Glory..the Glory of the flesh[resurrected]

  is one glory..the Glory of the spirit another..celestial,terrestial.


   if the resurrected bodies entered old jerusalem..of course

   they would die,again......but I think they may have visited the

old Jerusalem..and bore wittness to their resurrection..and then

  entered into the Holy City,Jerusalem Above..for the secound

  death would not have hurt them...

  In fact, I beleive all mankind is resurrected in the first

  resurrection this way..It's a first resurrection if your dead,isn't

  it.  but still, the nations must bring their Glory into it.

    the new heavens[Rev 21;24 ] the nations will walk by it's

light and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it

[Tony N]

Sheila, the bible knows no such thing as a "spirit body."

We humans have a soulish body. We still have a flesh and bones body.
We will have a spiritual body. We will still have a flesh and bones body.

It doesn't say we will have a "spirit body."

1Co 15:45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:
the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."

When Adam because a living soul did he lose his flesh and bones? No.
When Christ became a vivifying spirit, did He lose His flesh and bones? No.

Humans are called "souls." Act 27:37 Now we were, in all, two hundred seventy six souls in the ship."

Did those souls on that ship lose their flesh and bones? No.

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote.....

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Just curious. For those people whose bodies of flesh and bone were basically vaporized by a bomb or fire or just rotted away and thus have no more flesh and bone to raise, what is it that is raised then from your physical point of view?

Do you believe God is only spirit in essence?

cp

[claypot]

Sheila, the bible knows no such thing as a "spirit body."

We humans have a soulish body. We still have a flesh and bones body.
We will have a spiritual body. We will still have a flesh and bones body.

It doesn't say we will have a "spirit body."

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Tony, I agree in one sense yet am confused in another. What's the difference between spiritual body and spirit body. This spiritual body will have no blood, right? It can dematerialize or materialize at will? This almost sounds like you are describing a body that is spirit and can take on a flesh form if it so desires or are you describing a flesh body that can be spirit if it wishes.

cp

[Sarah]

OnlyTruth, I enjoyed your post. It is very simple and easy to understand. Most of this stuff can give you the head spins.

Regarding the type of body we are raised in, it is not flesh and blood, nor is it spiritual flesh(kind of an oxymoron isn't it  :laughing7: ), but it is a spiritual body(1 Cor 15:44).

I have always viewed the following verses as pertaining to a moment in time growing up, but the other day, I saw them from a different perspective. From the perspective that the last trump is physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (as in the patriarchs of old going to Hades), but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (when we die). For the trumpet will sound, the dead (us) will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable (our souls) must clothe itself with the imperishable (a spiritual body that Christ said He would go and prepare a place for us), and the mortal (our souls) with immortality (spiritual body). When the perishable (our souls) has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

[Tony N]

Tony, you wrote.....

God is going to raise our dead bodies of flesh and bones out of the graves and we, in those flesh and bones bodies will meet the Lord in the air. But they will not be soulish bodies but spiritual bodies in that those bodies will be empowered by the spirit rather than the soul.

Just curious. For those people whose bodies of flesh and bone were basically vaporized by a bomb or fire or just rotted away and thus have no more flesh and bone to raise, what is it that is raised then from your physical point of view?

Do you believe God is only spirit in essence?

cp

God can and will put them back together again. Most, if not all the billions of people from Adam to Noah, are dust blowing in the wind. But God will bring them back from the dead. He has the blueprints of everyone who ever lived recorded in His Spirit as well as their thoughts and memories etc. since He is everywhere at all times and "in Him we are moving and living and all" and "He gives to all life and breath and all." (Acts 17). He is so powerful that He can raise people to worship Jesus from stones.

The Bible says that "God is spirit." "Is" is italic and not in Greek texts. Usually when the "is" is missing it signifies something is literally what the writer wishes to convey.
God is spirit and He fills heaven and earth. God metaphorically is light.


"God is light" (1 John 1:5) Had John Said "God light" it would have been literal. Since John used "is" it is a figure of speech.

Of course this does not hold in absolutely every case in Greek.

For instance Jesus said of the bread "This is My body." Had He said "This My body" the Catholics (God bless 'em) might have a leg to stand on in changing the bread into the literal body of Christ.

Likewise Jesus said of the wine: "This is My blood." Was the wine literaly His blood? No. It is a figure of speech.

[Nathan]

A "figure" of speach . . . It's a word "picture".  Romans 1:20 . . .God uses natural to reveal spiritual .. . natural "things" "events" "experiences" to reveal his true character and nature to and in us. 

It is clear to me that Christ did not come into the natural to establish religious law . . by "fulfilling" it, he did away with it's power over us.  Another "figure" in speech. 

Using literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

[Tony N]

Dear Nathan, how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

sing literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The spirit descending on Jesus was a literal descending. "like a dove" if figurative.

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Jesus literally overthrew the tables etc. There is nothing figurative about that.

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote to Nathan I think....

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality.

Just a thought.

cp

[Tony N]

Tony, you wrote to Nathan I think....

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality.

Just a thought.

cp

I really like your definition cp.
Let's use it to look at this figure:

"Mat 26:26 Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body."
Mat 26:27 And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all,
Mat 26:28 for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."

In effect He was saying My body is like this bread.
The wine in the cup He said "is My blood." It was not literally His blood. It is a figure of speech in that it is, using cp's definition of figurative, "An outward manifestation of a spiritual reality."

Very good cp. Very good indeed.

Tony

[Nathan]

Dear Nathan, how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

sing literal elements and gestures . .and words .  .to illuminate a spiritual/invisible truth seems to be the language of God.  Kind of like realizing that Christ "is" the Sabbath.  Like . . satan tempted Jesus . . a "figure" of speech.  A dove hovering over Christ . . .turning the tables in the temple . . .dying on the cross . . . being buried in the flesh earth . . resurrecting . .and not being recognized . . . "figure" of speech.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The spirit descending on Jesus was a literal descending. "like a dove" if figurative.

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Jesus literally overthrew the tables etc. There is nothing figurative about that.

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Maybe you need to define what "figurative" is to you because your usage is not what its meaning is in the world today.

I did it that way on purpose.  You used the same exact thing when you mentioned the bread and the wine resembling something other than what they were.  When Jesus stated 'this is my blood' . . you stated that it was a figure of speech.  If I wanted to be argumentative . . .I could push you back with that and ask . . .how do you know it wasn't really blood?  He turned water into wine . .what would make you think that he can't turn wine into blood?

But "I choose" to agree with you . . thus, there's no real argument.  But when I mention satan (adversary) tempting Christ . . .you choose to argue the matter rather than agree with the fact that "it's possible".  With you, your doctrine is more important than our relationship.  I think that's also partly why that other thread where you finally walked away from, got to the level of argument that it did.  You're very quick to assume the extreme. 

When I mentioned the dove . . I never said that it wasn't literal . .what I said was, that the picture of the dove hovering over Christ is a "figure" (mental image) of speech (image put into words).  Yet you always jump to conclusions and create arguments that are just unnecessary.  You love making us defend ourselves . . .and you seem to have taken this self-appointed task to make everyone straight . .when the rule you are using doesn't match up with the message intended to be shared.  If I were to ask you if I'm right or not, then I could understand your speed at making your opinions known. 

The biggest part of edifying one another . . .is that we find a way to come into an agreement with another . . .not emphasize all the differences.  your words of correction as to how I coin the phrase "figure of speech" does nothing to bring my relationship with Christ to a closer/better/ more matture place.

[Tony N]

Hi Nathan, sorry. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. I was just sharing my view.

[peacemaker]

... how do you know Satan did not literally temp Jesus?

James, the brother of Jesus, and the leader of the church in Jerusalem was thrown from the pinnacle (southeast corner) of the Temple over a hundred feet down. He refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club.

Ironically, this is the same pinnacle that Jesus was shown during his temptation which was built by man in his culminating point of success, power and fame. Not by a supernatural entity.

Sort of looks like the base of an Egyptian pyramid and a tower of Babel, for those who wanted Christ to dash himself against the rocks below.

A picture of the southeast corner - the Pinnacle of the Temple, can be viewed here:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/RelEd&CISOPTR=2171&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

So, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."
Think about it   :Book:  :JCThink:

peacemaker

[Nathan]

My eyes are seeing the same . . .

[Tony N]

... how do you know Satan did not literally tempt Jesus?

James, the brother of Jesus, and the leader of the church in Jerusalem was thrown from the pinnacle (southeast corner) of the Temple over a hundred feet down. He refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat him to death with a fuller's club.

Ironically, this is the same pinnacle that Jesus was shown during his temptation which was built by man in his culminating point of success, power and fame. Not by a supernatural entity.

Sort of looks like the base of an Egyptian pyramid and a tower of Babel, for those who wanted Christ to dash himself against the rocks below.

A picture of the southeast corner - the Pinnacle of the Temple, can be viewed here:

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/RelEd&CISOPTR=2171&CISOBOX=1&REC=9

So, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."
Think about it   :Book:  :JCThink:

peacemaker

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was posessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

[Nathan]

Okay . .that is a great question. 

One of your arguments "to me" is that you don't believe that there is an adversary in a person who has Christ in them as well.  If that be the case . . .then how is it that Jesus would not only be at the same table . .but Jesus broke the same bread, poured the same cup . . .and even washed Judas feet . . .and after all of that . . "while" Judas was in the presence of Jesus . . .the devil entered him.

You're calling it demon possession . . .or satan possession . . .we're calling it feeding the carnality within us. . . or at least I am anyway.

The thing that got Judas to do what he did was his own greed.  His relationship with Jesus wasn't as important to him as fattening his wallet.  But for me . .personally .  . I also don't believe that Judas hated Jesus or didn't believe him . . .I think that Judas did what everyone else did . .they took Jesus words literally.  Judas really expected Jesus to "be" the physical king of Israel . . .and selling him to the Pharisees would then force Jesus hand to reveal to the world that he was the next king. 

When it became obvious to Judas that Jesus was not going to survive the cross . . .he couldn't handle the guilt of what he'd done and never did understand that everything Jesus did and said was for a spiritual fulfillment and benefit and not a literal physical one.

At any rate . . . saying that Judas could be fed, led, washed, and still in the presence of Jesus when he become possessed by the devil . .literally . . .is really no different in saying that "in" me there is spirit and carnality . .there is Godliness .  .and ungodliness.  Which ever one I feed, is the one that consumes me.

[peacemaker]

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was possessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

Not at all, Tony, you are entitled to your own thoughts, or those of another.
And, no "Jesus was not possessed" with the thoughts of others, unlike Judas.

But thanks for asking!

peacemaker

[claypot]

Okay . .that is a great question. 

One of your arguments "to me" is that you don't believe that there is an adversary in a person who has Christ in them as well.  If that be the case . . .then how is it that Jesus would not only be at the same table . .but Jesus broke the same bread, poured the same cup . . .and even washed Judas feet . . .and after all of that . . "while" Judas was in the presence of Jesus . . .the devil entered him.

You're calling it demon possession . . .or satan possession . . .we're calling it feeding the carnality within us. . . or at least I am anyway.

The thing that got Judas to do what he did was his own greed.  His relationship with Jesus wasn't as important to him as fattening his wallet.  But for me . .personally .  . I also don't believe that Judas hated Jesus or didn't believe him . . .I think that Judas did what everyone else did . .they took Jesus words literally.  Judas really expected Jesus to "be" the physical king of Israel . . .and selling him to the Pharisees would then force Jesus hand to reveal to the world that he was the next king. 

When it became obvious to Judas that Jesus was not going to survive the cross . . .he couldn't handle the guilt of what he'd done and never did understand that everything Jesus did and said was for a spiritual fulfillment and benefit and not a literal physical one.

At any rate . . . saying that Judas could be fed, led, washed, and still in the presence of Jesus when he become possessed by the devil . .literally . . .is really no different in saying that "in" me there is spirit and carnality . .there is Godliness .  .and ungodliness.  Which ever one I feed, is the one that consumes me.

Nathan, dang it!!! Quit doing that! That, to me, was the best post, the best meal I've eaten in a while. Thanks Pal. I'm off to read it again.

cp

[peacemaker]

I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

[Nathan]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Tony N]

peacemaker, I hope you don't think I am trying to start a fight by stating my own thoughts on this matter.

So, are you saying that Jesus was possessed by Satan?

If Satan is already in everyone, then why was he outside of Judas and then entered him?

Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

Not at all, Tony, you are entitled to your own thoughts, or those of another.
And, no "Jesus was not possessed" with the thoughts of others, unlike Judas.

But thanks for asking!

peacemaker

[/quote]

peacemaker,
I guess I have to say this disclaimer for every time I post now. I'm not trying to start a fight of bushwack anyone.
You stated this:

So, who was this tempter that desired Christ's power in order to control the people ... AND WHERE IS SATAN NOW?

"He is here, in the heart and mind of men; where he has always been."

I thought I would bold and underline your words above to bring attention to them.
So if Satan was in Jesus (where he has always been, according to your statement above) when He was tempted, (he had to be in Jesus for Jesus to be tempted, [according to you] right?) then Jesus had sin in His body and therefore Jesus was not, as He said "without sin." He would not be the spotless lamb. Jesus neither had sin, nor Satan, nor death operating in His body.

Satan is not in the heart of everyone. He is not in my heart. He is not in my mind.

The Bible says by way of implication that Satan was outside of Judas. He was outside of Judas his whole life. It was not until God wanted to make absolutely sure that Judas would give up Jesus that He had Satan enter Judas to get the job done.

(Luk 22:3)  Yet Satan entered into Judas, called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."

(Joh 13:27)  And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

If I entered into a brand new car, that means I was not in the car before I entered.
If Satan entered into Judas, that means he was not in Judas before he entered.

Disclaimer:
The above are just my thoughts. They are not meant to inflame or cause a fight or try to make anyone look bad. I'm not upset. I don't think anything less of those I converse with. I don't think I know it all.  :boyheart:

[claypot]

I have said this elsewhere, but will repeat it here ...

According to the Scriptures, the heart is the center of all operations of human life, and "so as a man thinks." The nature of man's deepest, most sincerest feelings and beliefs come from the heart; the spirit of man.

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

Jesus said, "But those things [which] proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things [which] defile a man."

A sinful heart is the father of lies; the seed of corruption. When we speak a lie, it is not from some evil spirit being that has entered us - "For nothing that has entered, can defile a man." But that which comes out of their mouth.

The idea of something entering Judas, may have actually been the thoughts of others; those who were an adversary (Satan) of Christ. And, or that of his own desires as Nathan put it.  However, Judas was the responsible party, in Christ own words:

"Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!"

"What you are going to do, do quickly."

Judas wasn't a robot without a mind of his own, although he may have been a puppet on a satanic (adversarial) string.

"The mind has the capacity to reason; but the impulse of the heart wants the final say."

peacemaker

PM, Good stuff, I mean it.

Tony, you are thinking some of us are teaching and believing that Jesus and all of us are satan possessed beings. You have helped me clarify what is being said in Scripture.

I think you are right and wrong, as I am most of the time! Satan was outside of Judas as he is of everyone in the sense that when he is not obeyed he has not entered. Satan can only possess as you are seeing possessed when a being obeys 'him'. I have had many ideas or thoughts within me that I have shunned. I would consider these thoughts of my brain and mind as outside of me in a sense while those thoughts, both good and bad, that I have obeyed, I would say have entered into my being.

Do you understand this, Tony? Could this be a way to view the entering in of satan into a person?

There is no way on Gods green earth that when Jesus said that a mans enemies are those of his own household (mt10.36), that Jesus was not indicating that a mans enemies or adversary (satan) are within each person. What is more in man than mans mind? Especially when you really see what Scripture is saying in what Peacemaker brought up....

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man....mt15.19

Hey Tony, I posted something a while back and did not see a response, of which I understand as I know you have a lot going on, but I will ask again if you don't mind. Here it is.....

Tony, you wrote....

Christ being burried, dying on the cross are all literal events. They were not figurative.
His resurrection alsa was literal, not figurative.
The two on the road to Emmaeus really did not know it was Him they were talking to. That is a literal event, not figurative.

Tony, to me, its not that these events are not literal, its what they point to, what they really mean that is relevant. It is what they figuratively represent that has meaning for all men throughout all time. Not to be disrespectful but the way you see Scripture is way too limited and narrow for me but that is just me. It obviously works for you and for a lot of other people I know personally. Most of my friends who adamantly do not believe God will ultimately save all are literalists of the physical interpretation of Scripture. Their philosophy is like yours......literal whenever possible and spiritual when they deem it's not possible.

Instead of saying these things are literal and not figurative can you not find it in yourself to say they are literal AND figurative? Or is this just impossible for you to even consider.

cp

[claypot]

Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone will open the door and let me in.........Rev3.20

This is occuring within people. The standing and knocking are being done within yet the opening of the door is the key to entering or not.

Kapeesh?

cp

[Sarah]

I remember as a kid hearing about a book called Pigs in the Parlour. The book was saying how most people are demon possessed, and sure enough, those who bought into the book began manifesting demons. Then their was this whole debate on wheather a Christian could be demon-possessed. Some said that Christians where opressed, and non-Christians were posessed. But when you think about it, what does it matter if satan is in control?

It is in the mind that the advesary attacks through thoughts. I believe this was how Jesus, Judas, and Peter was tempted. Peter was called satan because he spoke the things of man and not of God. Do you think it could be said that satan entered Judas because he changed his mind into betraying Jesus? Jesus did not sin because He did not align His will with the thoughts of the enemy. I don't concern myself with wheather the voices that tempt me come from within my own mind, or enter my mind from an outside source. I don't see how it matters, we still have an enemy.