What is Jesus? Spirit or flesh?

[WhiteWings]

To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

:Chinscratch:
The eternally crucified part I don't really like. But eternally finished is Biblically correct IMO.
When Jesus was on earth He prepared and completed the path to our salvation. That path will be there eternally.
He doesn't need to repeat that task every x years. So its finished eternally.

[Nancy]

Hi there all,

This subject is very interesting. I get so confused about who Jesus is, who should we pray to, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, etc.
I have just read a book by Eric Butterworth and he explains it very well.

Jesus was the man of flesh but he became The Christ, that is He believed that He was literally a part of God and that the kingdom of heaven was within Him not without. He also said that we could all become The Christ, that is know that God is our Father and that all things are ours if we truly believe it.  The scriptures say that Christ is the light that shines every man who comes into the world, it's just that they don't know it or believe it.
So maybe I can pray to God as Christ did, not to Christ but through Him, as if I am Christ.

Godbless
Nancy

[Tony N]

You da funny guy but I must thank you. I know of One other who was called a crackpot of sorts for talking of things way beyond His audience. You have paid me a high compliment and I hope to be able to return the favor some day.

cp

Did I call you a crackpot? Not me!  :laughing7:
What you wrote is not beyond me, it is beneath me. Philosophy should have no part of our theology as the Bible is dead set against the wisdom of this world. To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

Philosophy means a love of wisdom. Wisdom is truth believed and lived out.

Tony, according to you, there is only physical ground beneath you.

Are you going to answer any of my questions over on the 'other' thread or I have lost favor in your sight and you deem me beneath you?

Search the Scriptures and you will see I speak of what is in them. I only seek to honor God by living and seeing life through only His Word so unless you can tell me you know all there is to know of Scripture please refrain from making absurd comments like "To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing." You are way out of your league in this Brother.

cp

cp if you would read that other board you would note I have answered you.

The bible knows nothing of Christ being eternaly crucified and eternally finished. I am out of your league which suits me fine. The wisdom of this world God has made stupid. I have no part in it and have no need of it.

[claypot]

To say Christ is eternally crucified and finished eternally too is just mumbo jumbo and means absolutely nothing.

:Chinscratch:
The eternally crucified part I don't really like. But eternally finished is Biblically correct IMO.
When Jesus was on earth He prepared and completed the path to our salvation. That path will be there eternally.
He doesn't need to repeat that task every x years. So its finished eternally.

Hey WW, I do hear ya on the crucifixion thing and I will attempt an explanation. First I want to say to Tony that I am seeing you comment on my questions and I thank you and ask for forgiveness for my impatience.

OK, to me God is an eternal God. All He is and does is eternal. I can see it no other way. All of human life including Jesus before, during and after the cross is like a picture IMO. No part of this picture can ever be erased, ever. I think I will always be a little boy in Gods eyes and I will always be a mature man too. Jesus stressed that He is the I AM.

I don't see Jesus suffering all the time like we understand it. I do see His suffering (our suffering) as finished yet in some untimeful way I see suffering as always in the picture. From our new mind of Christ and new body perspective I know there will be no pain, misery, suffering of any kind or sin associated with this eternal event but the event will be eternal as God is.

I like this view because I believe I will never learn all there is to learn from the act of Gods heart in the crucifixion of His Son. Now I see much shame, pain and suffering in the cross but I believe there is much more there that when seen with new eyes will be beautiful.

Words fail me but I hope this helps.

cp 

[claypot]

Hey Tony, you wrote....

The bible knows nothing of Christ being eternaly crucified and eternally finished. I am out of your league which suits me fine. The wisdom of this world God has made stupid. I have no part in it and have no need of it.

Couldn't disagree and agree with you more Brother, and in that order too.

Thanks again for your patience with me.

cp

[WhiteWings]

It reminds me of a one-liner: "Time is to prevent all things happening at once"

If I understand your reply correctly because God is timeless for Him do all things happen at the same time.
God has no past. God has no future. God only has now.

Is that what you are saying?

[onlytruth]

hi nathan
if jesus is one ...God ,holy spirit("trinity").then if the spirit is in us,would we also be considered one in God. does this make us part of the trinity??or is God just part of all and He wishes to manifest himself like He did through jesus completely?
blessings :icon_king:

[Nathan]

In short . . .yup.
The Father is Light . . Jesus is the same light . .illuminating in different forms.  Scripture says that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light . . .original definitions . . .the adversary (my carnal mind) can disguise (pervert the original form of . .) himself as an angel (angel simply means messenger/message) of light.  In other words, my mind can interpret truth, through natural reasoning (that's the "himself" part) and come up with a perverted distortion of the original image. 

When Christ is in me, his light shines through me . . . Depending on where others are, when they see you/me, the see God/Christ/Holy Spirit manifesting through us . . .but all things must first come through the Son before receiving the inherited things of the Father.

That help?

[onlytruth]

hi again,
is it jesus or the anointing(christ) that we go through?i tend to lean towards the idea that jesus was the example,  and as he said- he had to leave in order for the comforter to come to us.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

[Nathan]

hi again,
is it jesus or the anointing(christ) that we go through?i tend to lean towards the idea that jesus was the example,  and as he said- he had to leave in order for the comforter to come to us.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

Okay, for me . . .I'll be a little brave and say this ..even though my head hasn't heard all of it yet . . .

I see that Jesus was born in the flesh . .to become the Christ . . .but it wasn't until the Jordan river that this actually came to be.  The anointing came when he submitted himself to the hands of his forerunner and manifested what was yet to come, being buried in the river of death . . .and being resurrected in a river of life.  At that resurrection, the anointing came and drove him into the wilderness where natural food was withheld from him and spiritual strength would manifest in him as he subdued his biggest enemy first, before dealing with the temple next, and then the people after . . .holy crap!  I never saw that before!!

That's the dimensions all over again.  He was driven into the wilderness to overcome his carnal man . . .his "inner" nature . . .the flesh in his holy of holies 3rd dimension. . .he then went from the wilderness into the temple and gave notice to the corporate body 2nd dimension, that the prophesies were being fulfilled before their very eyes . . .this is the acceptable year of the Lord . . .and then he took it to all of the region, to all physical men . . .3rd dimension

But as to the original question . . .he was Jesus of Nazereth to many, but he became Jesus Christ . .Jesus the anointed at the river . . .

[onlytruth]

i knew there was a spiritual dimension to" crap"-ha ha.
thanks nathan :icon_king:

[claypot]

It reminds me of a one-liner: "Time is to prevent all things happening at once"

If I understand your reply correctly because God is timeless for Him do all things happen at the same time.
God has no past. God has no future. God only has now.

Is that what you are saying?

That is very close to what I am saying and seeing WW. Time and space are key ingredients to this puzzle we call life. I think God so enjoys our seeking Him out and I think the time/space elements are keys in unraveling the mysteries of Scripture. Also I think God kind of lovingly taunted us to pursue this train of thought throughout Scripture in places where Jesus says 'I am' and when it just plain talks about the eternal Godhead.

cp

[claypot]

In short . . .yup.
The Father is Light . . Jesus is the same light . .illuminating in different forms.  Scripture says that satan can disguise himself as an angel of light . . .original definitions . . .the adversary (my carnal mind) can disguise (pervert the original form of . .) himself as an angel (angel simply means messenger/message) of light.  In other words, my mind can interpret truth, through natural reasoning (that's the "himself" part) and come up with a perverted distortion of the original image. 

When Christ is in me, his light shines through me . . . Depending on where others are, when they see you/me, the see God/Christ/Holy Spirit manifesting through us . . .but all things must first come through the Son before receiving the inherited things of the Father.

That help?

Another fine meal you offer up Bro.
cp

[Molly]

But as to the original question . . .he was Jesus of Nazereth to many, but he became Jesus Christ . .Jesus the anointed at the river . . .

Yes, of course.  He came to show us the Way.

Didn't your big brother ever teach you to ski?

Follow me and do what I do--even though he has long since passed the beginner's hill, and can fly over moguls on the expert slopes...he lowers himself for you---to teach you...

Take up your cross and follow me...said by the Creator of the universe..my goodness...

John the Baptist was his preceding angel...I will send my angel before me, He says in Malachi...

When John sees him---He identifies him--Behold, the Lamb of God...

But, even John is surprised and shaken....You want me to do what?...I am not worthy to even tie your shoes...

Jesus tells him, do it, to fulfill all righteousness...

This is the Way...

Follow me...do what I do...turn when I turn...bend when I bend...rise up when I rise up...

And we will make it down the hill together.

[Pierac]

Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Spirit (ruah) - is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. The word is used of one's mind or thinking.

Spirit (pneuma) - the Spirit is said to dwell in the minds of Christians. purpose.

Paul uses spirit and mind interchangeably as he quotes Isaiah 40:13 in the New Testament. Let's take a look at these verses.

Isaiah 40:13: "Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or has instructed Him as His counselor?"

Romans 11:34: "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"

1 Corinthians 2:16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel Him?"

It is clear that for Paul, the spirit of the LORD is the mind of the LORD. These definitions are crucial in order to understand many verses of the Bible. If you are one in spirit with Jesus it means that you are one in mind with Jesus. That you have the same mind-set, the same disposition, that you think the same as he does. This after all is what a Christian strives for, to try to reach the example of faith that Jesus showed us. To be able to discern the will of God as Jesus did so perfectly. We are told to have the same mind, the same attitude as Christ.

Examples:
1 Corinthians 2:16: "But we have the mind of Christ."

Philippians 2:2: "Complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing."

1 Peter 4:1: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same attitude, for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin, so as not to spend what remains of one's life on human desires, but on the will of God."

Philippians 2:5: "Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus."

With these definitions we can better understand a verse like

1 Corinthians 7:17:
"But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."

In other words, whoever unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."

Galatians 6:1: "Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one with the spirit of gentleness."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Deuteronomy 34:9: "Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom."

Genesis 41:8: "Next morning his spirit was agitated."

Hope this helps,
Paul

[Molly]

I can also read it as: Jesus is constantly in my mind. Just like you say yo your loved ones: I have locked you in my heart.
Then you express great love towards that person. I know you have a big heart Molly but I doubt your husband fits in it 

The Brain -- is wider than the Sky --
For -- put them side by side --
The one the other will contain
With ease -- and You -- beside --

The Brain is deeper than the sea --
For -- hold them -- Blue to Blue --
The one the other will absorb --
As Sponges -- Buckets -- do --

The Brain is just the weight of God --
For -- Heft them -- Pound for Pound --
And they will differ -- if they do --
As Syllable from Sound --

--Emily Dickinson

[claypot]

I can also read it as: Jesus is constantly in my mind. Just like you say yo your loved ones: I have locked you in my heart.
Then you express great love towards that person. I know you have a big heart Molly but I doubt your husband fits in it 

The Brain -- is wider than the Sky --
For -- put them side by side --
The one the other will contain
With ease -- and You -- beside --

The Brain is deeper than the sea --
For -- hold them -- Blue to Blue --
The one the other will absorb --
As Sponges -- Buckets -- do --

The Brain is just the weight of God --
For -- Heft them -- Pound for Pound --
And they will differ -- if they do --
As Syllable from Sound --

--Emily Dickinson

I like it Molly. I am indebted to you again!

cp

[fire walker]

2 Cr 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know no man after the flesh; Yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

If we know no man after the flesh or Christ after the flesh then it appears that we are to know Christ and our fellow mankind in spirit because after the flesh we are not to know any man after the flesh.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Molly]

John the Baptist has been given a mission from God to identify the Messiah.  He is the voice crying in the wilderness--Prepare the way for the LORD.


15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.


The book of John gives us an interesting insight into how John the Baptist identified Jesus.

John was told by God---look for the one upon whom the Spirit from heaven  stays---He's the one.  John tells us--he doesn't know what the Christ will look like in the flesh.


31And I knew him not:...

32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.


John tells us he was told by God what to look for--the Spirit, not the flesh--


33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

--John 1



:bgdance:

[Tony N]

Many of you who've been reading along in the spirit/natural thread have probably read our little argument concerning whether or not Jesus is a spirit, or if he is flesh.  I came across this verse today and would like to give Tony an opportunity to explain it for me . . .

Colossians 1
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Spirit (ruah) - is often used of a man's mind-set, disposition, or temper. The word is used of one's mind or thinking.

Spirit (pneuma) - the Spirit is said to dwell in the minds of Christians. purpose.

Paul uses spirit and mind interchangeably as he quotes Isaiah 40:13 in the New Testament. Let's take a look at these verses.

Isaiah 40:13: "Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or has instructed Him as His counselor?"

Romans 11:34: "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?"

1 Corinthians 2:16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel Him?"

It is clear that for Paul, the spirit of the LORD is the mind of the LORD. These definitions are crucial in order to understand many verses of the Bible. If you are one in spirit with Jesus it means that you are one in mind with Jesus. That you have the same mind-set, the same disposition, that you think the same as he does. This after all is what a Christian strives for, to try to reach the example of faith that Jesus showed us. To be able to discern the will of God as Jesus did so perfectly. We are told to have the same mind, the same attitude as Christ.

Examples:
1 Corinthians 2:16: "But we have the mind of Christ."

Philippians 2:2: "Complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing."

1 Peter 4:1: "Therefore, since Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourself with the same attitude, for whoever suffers in the flesh has broken with sin, so as not to spend what remains of one's life on human desires, but on the will of God."

Philippians 2:5: "Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus."

With these definitions we can better understand a verse like

1 Corinthians 7:17:
"But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit."

In other words, whoever unites himself with the Lord is one with him in mind, mind-set, attitude, thinking, or in purpose, which are all synonymous. Here are some other examples. Try substituting one of the given definitions where it says "spirit" and you will get a clearer meaning of the verse.

Numbers 5:14: "Or if a man is overcome by a spirit of jealousy."

Galatians 6:1: "Even if a person is caught in some transgression, you who are spiritual should correct that one with the spirit of gentleness."

1 Corinthians 2:12: "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God."

Deuteronomy 34:9: "Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom."

Genesis 41:8: "Next morning his spirit was agitated."

Hope this helps,
Paul

Paul, Pierac, that was downright beautiful! Wow! Now that is what I call a great lesson. I learned something new and beautiful! Kudos dude!

Tony

[sheila]

         :HeartThrob:


     John  4;24  God is a spirit,and his worshippers MUST Worship

     in spirit and truth.  The woman said'I know Messiah is

   coming[called Christ] When he comes he will declare

  everything to us" Jesus declared 'I who speak to you,am he'


      John 16;13,14   I have much more to say to you,more than

   you can now bear. But when he,the spirit of truth comes,

   he will guide you into all truth.He will not speak on his own,

   he will speak only what he hears,and he will tell you what is

   yet to come. He will bring glory to me,by taking from what

   is mine and making it known to you.


                               

[martincisneros]

Question . .. "if" Christ is NOT spirit . .then HOW can he be IN me?

Haven't had a chance to review the whole thread, but if you can answer for me how Jesus could walk through the walls to meet with the disciples after His resurrection and say that He's flesh and bone, then you've answered your own question.  This is the biggy that John got into in 1John that those that deny that Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of AntiChrist.  This gets sticky on the doctrine of the resurrection and subjects about the Godhead that we've had to sensor in the past because they got too explosive on the boards.

2 Cr 5:16

Wherefore henceforth know no man after the flesh; Yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

No time to elaborate right now, but "both in the flesh and in the Lord" in Philemon.  And that's from Paul the aged "having confidence in the Lord that you'll do even more than I say" which is totally different than the mess he was working through at Corinth.  Hoping to have at least a very short verse by verse written soon on that so people have some kind of an idea of where I'm going with the book of Philemon since it's such a neglected epistle and 9 out of 10 commentaries that'll even bother with it have the story entirely wrong not knowing/realizing that it's an emancipation proclamation and an ordination letter.  Very, very timely message for the mainstream Church that's been in a form of imprisonment, but that's nonetheless giving birth to this Onesimus generation that are useful both in the flesh and in the Lord 'cause their birthing has been completed and they're everything to the world and to the Church that Jesus is.

Jesus is both spirit and flesh right now and He's both spirit and flesh within us according to John 17, 1John 5, and 2Corinthians 13.  Yet the Holy Spirit is distinct according to the Gospel of John and Romans; another one just like Jesus, who leans towards not speaking of/from Himself, but only repeats what He hears and glorifies Jesus; the Spirit of Him that raised Jesus from the dead...

then if the spirit is in us,would we also be considered one in God.

Yes

does this make us part of the trinity??

Yes

or is God just part of all....?

Nope.  Scripture's clear about those that don't have the Spirit in Genesis, Leviticus, Psalms, Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, Hebrews, 1John, Revelation, and elsewhere.  1Corinthians 15 makes God being "all in all" a separate, distinct, and future era from the reign of Christ Jesus.  Hebrews says "we see not yet all things under Him, but we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor by the grace of God..."

[Tony N]

if you can answer for me how Jesus could walk through the walls to meet with the disciples after His resurrection and say that He's flesh and bone, then you've answered your own question.

When He became visible to them He said:
Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

His flesh and bones matched the vibrational frequency of the atoms in the wall and thus He walked through the wall. Either that, He is able to move through different dimmensions of time and space, like Philip who, right after the eunuch went under water as he was being baptized and came up, Philip was gone but at that instant was seen in another city:

Act 8:39 Now when they stepped up out of the water, the spirit of the Lord snatches away Philip, and the eunuch did not perceive him any longer, for he went his way rejoicing."
Act 8:40 Now Philip was found in Azotus, and, passing through, he brought the evangel to all the cities, till his coming into Caesarea."

A spirit cannot eat fish Luk 24:42 Now they hand Him part of a broiled fish,
Luk 24:43 and, taking it, He ate before them."

[Nathan]

Tony . . .no one is arguing whether or not Jesus was flesh "then".  The question I propose is not about whether or not he was flesh then .. .but is he flesh now . .. you seem to be implying that he is "still" flesh . .even though he's sitting at the right hand of God . . which is a spiritual place and a spiritual father . . ."that's" where it just doesn't seem to add up for me.

[Tony N]

Tony . . .no one is arguing whether or not Jesus was flesh "then".  The question I propose is not about whether or not he was flesh then .. .but is he flesh now . .. you seem to be implying that he is "still" flesh . .even though he's sitting at the right hand of God . . which is a spiritual place and a spiritual father . . ."that's" where it just doesn't seem to add up for me.

Nathan, you are spiritual yet still have flesh and bones.
1Co 14:37 If anyone is presuming to be a prophet or spiritual, let him be recognizing that what I am writing to you is a precept of the Lord."

1Co 2:15 Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one."

1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.

Even though it is roused a spiritual body this does not mean the body is no longer flesh and bones. It is still a body. Spiritual is the adjectival form of "spirit" and just has to duty of telling us of that which pertains to the spirit.
The soulish body is not a soul without a body because we are all soulish bodies. It is just a body which has its leanings toward the soul, senses, desires. Likewise the spiritual body is not a spirit without a body. It is a body which has its leanings toward the spirit.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man should be precipitated, also, in some offense, you, who are spiritual, be attuning such a one, in a spirit of meekness, noting yourself, that you, also, may not be tried."

Those in the Galatian ecclesia who were spiritual still had bodies.