first lie

[micah7:9]

Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to  ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks

[ScarletWren]

Not sure if we have enough info to determine it it was a deliberate lie or not.  No, I'm not defending Eve because she was a woman.  But in the scripture, God told Adam to not eat of the tree and some time AFTER that, Eve was created.  We are not told if God told Eve the same thing or if perhaps Adam was the one who told Eve not to eat of the tree and perhaps he embellished it with the "do not touch" just to make sure she stayed away and wasn't tempted.  But once she ate, he ate too.  Scripture says SHE was deceived but Adam was not.  Now the woman seems to signify the soul and the man the spirit. Adam 'died' for his bride, and Christ died for his bride. 

Perhaps she knew exactly what God said, perhaps not.  Someone else may have some more insight into this. 

[Tony N]

God said:
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

The first lie:
Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,
Gen 3:5 for the Elohim knows that, in the day you eat of it, unclosed shall be your eyes, and you become as the Elohim, knowing good and evil.

[IceDash]

I have a good question: how can a fruit so powerful than God or Satan cause us to die?

Didn't God put the tree there himself? Satan did not put it there, why not God "not" put the tree at all so saved all of us before?

If this is God's plan to get people's free wills, I do not know.

[micah7:9]

Firist lie Gen. 3:3 ".....neither shall you touch it,...."
"Perhaps" Adam told the woman? Perhaps, maybe?
Yes, I believe that the woman is soul and Adam is body; and it is the soul that reveals itself in the wants and desires of verse 6.
This tree in the midst of the garden bears both "fruits" and I may say now that
I consider this story to be allegoric, and true.

[ScarletWren]

I still don't think you have enough info to say that Eve told a deliberate lie.  Scripture does not repeat God's declaration to Adam to the woman nor does it say that Adam told her exactly what God said or that he added the extra statement.  Undoubtedly the woman is the one who succumbed to the temptation but it is not absolutely incontrovertible that she said what was not told her.  The Holy Spirit did not deem it necessary to point that out in clear detail.  However, both were given consequences for disobeying God's command.  And Eve was subjected to the man.  But the accusation was that they ate of the tree, not that there was a lie told, at least by Eve.  Satan was accused of deceiving the woman.  This isn't an issue I will argue over, it just seems pretty presumptious to declare Eve lied when God didn't even use that in His indictment.

[Tony N]

I have a good question: how can a fruit so powerful than God or Satan cause us to die?

I don't believe the fruit was more powerful than God. But God's word is powerful in that should Adam or Eve eat of the fobidden fruit that "to die they would be dying."

Didn't God put the tree there himself? Satan did not put it there, why not God "not" put the tree at all so saved all of us before?

Yes, God planted that tree in the very midst of the garden so the primal pair would not miss it. He put the tree there and created Satan "a liar from the beginning" and placed the serpent in that garden for the express purpose of deluding the woman and thus cause Adam to disobey. The reason is so that the promised Seed would come to deliver all mankind from sin and death. Otherwise God would not have a humanity that could truly love Him or thank Him for there would be no reason to.

If this is God's plan to get people's free wills, I do not know.

It is just God's plan.

[peacemaker]

Is "Satan" good or evil?

The Old Testament has nothing to say about a super-unnatural Satan (of orthodox Christianity).  Rather, it reveals that the Hebrew word Satan - is a neutral word.  Used for anyone who opposes another. It does not necessarily denote, nor is it isolated only to evil, but is dependent on who is doing the resisting, or acting as an opponent; an adversary!

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times [in subsequent stages of growth, or maturity] some shall depart from the faith [of a child], giving heed [consideration or attention] to seducing spirits [of men], and [their] doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (1Timothy 4:1-3)

I have never publicly, or otherwise, denounced CHRIST, but will in all good conscience renounce the errors and doctrines of men, even if thrown in their furnace of literal flames.

The HUMAN Spirit is a Devil, and if ignorant and uncontrolled by the SPIRIT of TRUTH will act devilishly in every way.

Why do you think the heart and mind of man needs to be restored, or regenerated?
Is it because of the input , or is it the output which defiles them?

A complete make-over is in process, to be born again; physically and spiritually changing our form.

Jesus said, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Jesus did not rebuke him for not believing in the supernatural ... he merely responded with love and compassion when He said, "Touch Me!"

He also said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed ...

... Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed."

I will probably be burned with zeal and passion at the stake, or in a furnace for this ... by the keepers of the flames.

peacemaker

[micah7:9]

satan is a Hebrew word for adversay/0pposer; I suggest the translators made the
enemy(adversary/opposer) "satan" an enity( a proper noun[an enity that the imaginations of mens minds]made a cowboy with a black hat) that in time, would be to religions and especially christianity, a scapecoat or reason to put the mistakes and errors of our desires.Dave

[Cardinal]

The HUMAN Spirit is a Devil, and if ignorant and uncontrolled by the SPIRIT of TRUTH will act devilishly in every way. [\quote]

:cloud9: Interesting pm; I've been pondering this possibility. Blessings....

[Taffy]

Used for anyone who opposes another. It does not necessarily denote, nor is it isolated only to evil, but is dependent on who is doing the resisting, or acting as an opponent; an adversary!

There are a few at Tent who too see this as such PM, well ya Know my thoughts from another forum bud.

Stan the man has come around more than a fw times bud :icon_flower:

That which adverse , for one can be shown by the fruit of our Lips

Again Tis that which comes out of a Man defiles him, the Heart Mouth\Tongue\lips seem to connect , to the deceitfulness of whats spoken....( OR pro whats spoken)...The HEART of MAN is deceitful above all things

The POWER OF DEATH, connect with the Devil and the Tongue...interestingly enough


Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy HIM that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof

Proverbs 18:20 A man's belly( mind) shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

words we speak are THE FRUIT of the lips

Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him. 

Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.

Alas Peter,at this stage was very much still carnal ,

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.


Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

For sin Lies at the DOOR


Psalm 141:3 Set a watch, O LORD, BEFORE MY MOUTH KEEP THE DOOR of MY LIPS


Prov 21:23 Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth HIS SOUL from troubles.


Psalm 39:1I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I SIN NOT with MY TONGUE

:icon_flower:

[Ken B]

In Gen. 3:6 note that Adam was with the woman,
did his lack of action have anything to do with this??
Ken

[Nathan]

For me, just as the last book is a revelation of Christ, the last Adam, I see the first book as a revelation of the first Adam . . .The reason for the two trees being in the "midst" of the garden, for me is not so they'd surely run into it . .but it's a picture of the core nature of man.  The life . .the spirit . .and the natural reasoning . . .the knowing good from evil. 

Even though the tree of knowing was "in" Adam . .in that he had the capability to live according to his own knowledge . . .God didn't want him to live on knowledge, but he wanted him to live in life.  Adam "let" Eve listen to the serpent . . .she could either listen to Adam . .through whom the law was established, or she could listen to the serpent "in" the tree of knowledge . . .which is you're carnal man in you as well.

This is the argument we got into yesterday . .and the day before . .and the day before. . .seems to be a pattern there . .hmmm .  . I see what Taf and pm see . . .there is an adversary in all of us . . .there is a traducer (devil) in all of us . .it is our carnal mind . . .our natural thinking . . .our soul-sided nature . .not sure how many different ways you can put that . .but it's all one and the same.

God established his law in the Spirit . . .when we let our spirit lead, we are within the blessings of that law.  But when we let our own minds prevail, then we are taking the law into our own hands and, like Eve, our minds don't have a clear understanding of what that law is. . .because it's a spiritual law and our minds are not spiritual, they are carnal . . . they have to be spiritually transformed . .which is a process in time within the boundaries of this life.  When I die physically, my spirit no longer remains in this wrapper, but it passes through the veil . . .Jesus even says his body is a veil . . .when the body comes to it's end in this life, the spirit passes through the veil of flesh into the spirit realm. 

I believe my personality will go with my spirit . . but I don't believe my carnal mind will.  Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend the spirit realm . .. outside of that . . .I really can't explain why I see there being a bit of a split . ..the only thing I can say to that is my ego, my carnal veil is removed . .it is separated from my personality . .my Eve at physical death. . . I feel I'm opening yet another can of worms with this . . .

[Zeek]

For me, just as the last book is a revelation of Christ, the last Adam, I see the first book as a revelation of the first Adam . . .The reason for the two trees being in the "midst" of the garden, for me is not so they'd surely run into it . .but it's a picture of the core nature of man.  The life . .the spirit . .and the natural reasoning . . .the knowing good from evil. 

Even though the tree of knowing was "in" Adam . .in that he had the capability to live according to his own knowledge . . .God didn't want him to live on knowledge, but he wanted him to live in life.  Adam "let" Eve listen to the serpent . . .she could either listen to Adam . .through whom the law was established, or she could listen to the serpent "in" the tree of knowledge . . .which is you're carnal man in you as well.

This is the argument we got into yesterday . .and the day before . .and the day before. . .seems to be a pattern there . .hmmm .  . I see what Taf and pm see . . .there is an adversary in all of us . . .there is a traducer (devil) in all of us . .it is our carnal mind . . .our natural thinking . . .our soul-sided nature . .not sure how many different ways you can put that . .but it's all one and the same.

God established his law in the Spirit . . .when we let our spirit lead, we are within the blessings of that law.  But when we let our own minds prevail, then we are taking the law into our own hands and, like Eve, our minds don't have a clear understanding of what that law is. . .because it's a spiritual law and our minds are not spiritual, they are carnal . . . they have to be spiritually transformed . .which is a process in time within the boundaries of this life.  When I die physically, my spirit no longer remains in this wrapper, but it passes through the veil . . .Jesus even says his body is a veil . . .when the body comes to it's end in this life, the spirit passes through the veil of flesh into the spirit realm. 

I believe my personality will go with my spirit . . but I don't believe my carnal mind will.  Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend the spirit realm . .. outside of that . . .I really can't explain why I see there being a bit of a split . ..the only thing I can say to that is my ego, my carnal veil is removed . .it is separated from my personality . .my Eve at physical death. . . I feel I'm opening yet another can of worms with this . . .

Hi Nathan,

what do you see the "ego" as?  and what is the veil? 

For me, I see the ego as a "persona" that believes it is "no good", it's who we believe we are, it's our "identity" in the absence of unconditional love.  In order to protect ourselves from "being this" we "build" a house on "sand" (no foundation) to protect us from experiencing our "ego identity".   The walls of this house are fear.  Whenever something in the world "triggers" our "identity", we feel fear, and do whatever we have to do to cover/bury "the identity" from being true.  It's living as a victim of circumstances, people, emotions, and thoughts.  The fruit of fear is anxiety, depression, anger, war, separation etc. 

The veil, to me is "fear".  When we come to the point of coming face to face with fear, and decide (via grace of God) to walk through that fear (false evidence appearing real), we come face to face with our nakedness, and our then covered with unconditional love, Christ in us.

Perfect love casts out all fear.
any thots 

[Nathan]

Yeah, the ego is the serpent . . it's that part of me that sees everything from a fallen perspective.  My spirit is the life, my ego is the knowledge . . .my mind is what chooses between the two.  Knowledge puffs up . .if you line up the things that knowledge does with the things my ego does . . .they are a perfect match. 

The veil is connected to the ego . . .it has limits and boundaries to what it can see.  Law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin . . . my ego is selfconsciousness because it is sin conscious . . . my mind is so powerful that it can actually form sores in my physical body . . .and it can also heal . .it all depends on whether my mind is led by my ego (which I see as natural/carnal reasoning) or my spirit. 

My spirit sees all things . ..without reason.  It's like a cup . . .it doesn't decide whether it's wine or acid that's poured into it . . .it's not designed to make that discernment . . .it's designed to contain whatever goes into it.  If my mind elects to be led by my ego . . .then my cup fills with venom . . .if I choose to be led by this cup . . . that means that my ego is "below" the cup/spirit which then reconnects me to God .  . .who is spirit. . .which then life is poured into my mind . .thus the renewal . . .but the ego is always there.

Paul proves this by the famous passage of this inner wrestling.  Death means separation . . .when I die to myself . .I'm separating my ego from the throne within me, and I'm placing my spirit in that position.  It was created in God's image . . .when I give myself over to that image . .I become transformed into that same image that created it.

[Zeek]

Yeah, the ego is the serpent . . it's that part of me that sees everything from a fallen perspective.  My spirit is the life, my ego is the knowledge . . .my mind is what chooses between the two.  Knowledge puffs up . .if you line up the things that knowledge does with the things my ego does . . .they are a perfect match. 

The veil is connected to the ego . . .it has limits and boundaries to what it can see.  Law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin . . . my ego is selfconsciousness because it is sin conscious . . . my mind is so powerful that it can actually form sores in my physical body . . .and it can also heal . .it all depends on whether my mind is led by my ego (which I see as natural/carnal reasoning) or my spirit. 

My spirit sees all things . ..without reason.  It's like a cup . . .it doesn't decide whether it's wine or acid that's poured into it . . .it's not designed to make that discernment . . .it's designed to contain whatever goes into it.  If my mind elects to be led by my ego . . .then my cup fills with venom . . .if I choose to be led by this cup . . . that means that my ego is "below" the cup/spirit which then reconnects me to God .  . .who is spirit. . .which then life is poured into my mind . .thus the renewal . . .but the ego is always there.

Paul proves this by the famous passage of this inner wrestling.  Death means separation . . .when I die to myself . .I'm separating my ego from the throne within me, and I'm placing my spirit in that position.  It was created in God's image . . .when I give myself over to that image . .I become transformed into that same image that created it.

but you see "physical death" as the veil?? 

if that is the case, we have to wait for physical death before we live? 

did i understand u correctly on your previous post re: the veil??

[Nancy]

Hi there all,

I believe that when Jesus was tempted, he was tempted by his ego, not some supernatural devil. The things he was asked to take were things that we want, material things, prestige, power, influence, etc.  Yes as The Christ He shunned these egotistical things opting to rely on the Father for everything.

Godbless
Nancy

[Zeek]

Hi there all,

I believe that when Jesus was tempted, he was tempted by his ego, not some supernatural devil. The things he was asked to take were things that we want, material things, prestige, power, influence, etc.  Yes as The Christ He shunned these egotistical things opting to rely on the Father for everything.

Godbless
Nancy

and why do we want those things??

in my opinion, to "make us be OK", to make us feel fulfilled.  In the absence of unconditional love. 


Jesus, on the other hand; was one with the Father. 

thots?

[Nathan]

Absolutely Nancy . . . that's how I see it as well.  Well said.

Zeek . . .for me, the death is the "completion" of it all . . .accepting Christ is the beginning . . .everything in between is the "process".  We have full access "now" into the heavenly things . . but we ourselves don't come into the full completion of that until we're removed from these limited bodies of flesh . .. or . . .until these bodies of flesh are transformed into the heavenly (spiritual/invisible) bodies Hebrews speaks of.  Which ever comes first.  It's all completed in the Spirit . .just not in the flesh.  So as we are in the flesh, we're to enter into the spirit and call out what's finished in the spirit, into the flesh.

Hebrews 10
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,  20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;  21And having an high priest over the house of God

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I'm not saying this to offend anyone or get something started but I would like to bring this up. I'm sure it's me, but the word "ego" just does not work for me. If by ego, you mean self, then I get it, but I don't understand bringing a psychology term, into discussions that have nothing to do with it.

I personally don't feel we have an ego (please put down the stones) I do think we have a spirit, soul, and body, and that soul has a carnal mind. I just don't see where that mind is divided up into parts anywhere, as in who is the absolute authority on that?  :dontknow: Blessings.....

[Nathan]

:cloud9: I'm not saying this to offend anyone or get something started but I would like to bring this up. I'm sure it's me, but the word "ego" just does not work for me. If by ego, you mean self, then I get it, but I don't understand bringing a psychology term, into discussions that have nothing to do with it.

I personally don't feel we have an ego (please put down the stones) I do think we have a spirit, soul, and body, and that soul has a carnal mind. I just don't see where that mind is divided up into parts anywhere, as in who is the absolute authority on that?  :dontknow: Blessings.....

I use ego for lack of a better term.  Self works there as well.  It's coming from Genesis with the relationship between Eve and the serpent.  The serpent represents everything carnal . . . the ego is all about self . . . that's the reason for coupling them together.  Adam is my spirit, Eve is my mind, and the serpent is what's embedded in the tree of knowledge . . .Eve did not submit to her Adam . . .and Adam "allowed" Eve to rule . . .as a result, that which she chose, became her confinement.  And because Adam was the one to whom the authority was given to . . .he to became confined to that which Eve chose . .because when she chose the serpent, she used Adam's authority to make that decision.

My spirit is where the authority is.  But if my mind decides to choose "self" then my spirit becomes subjected to self as well.  And when I'm walking according to my "self" then my spirit is cut off from commication with God . . .at which point, then God resorts to talking to man by way of natural things, until man chooses to submit to the spirit again at which point, God can once again talk directly to man.

This picture is in Scripture with the revelation given to Peter.  When Jesus saw that Peter was receiving direct communication with God . . .he stopped focussing on using pictorials to explain the kingdom . .and began preparing them for the next phase of his ministry . .which is the death, burial, and resurrection.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nathan. What I meant by who is the absolute authority on that, is, who told us the carnal mind had parts in the first place, as in an ego, super ego, ect.? THAT is why the term bothers me, but I do understand using it in place of self. Blessings....

[Dallas]

I believe the larger and most important part of the lie is constantly being left out...

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.


Now the lie...

Genesis 3: 4 "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The whole statement!!

God created man in God's likeness, and the serpent decived Eve (AND the lie passed to Adam through her tesimony) causing them to believe they weren't like God and they became ashamed and HID from His presence because of it.

Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden


That's the whole picture! Man didn't believe they were like God and they felt shame and hid from him and haven't been able to heal this so God sent Jesus to heal it and destroy The serpent who decieved the whole world through the spreading of this lie!

WE ARE LIKE HIM!! Thanks be it to Christ!

1 John 4: 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[Nathan]

:cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nathan. What I meant by who is the absolute authority on that, is, who told us the carnal mind had parts in the first place, as in an ego, super ego, ect.? THAT is why the term bothers me, but I do understand using it in place of self. Blessings....

Yeah, I don't have the background of understanding on ego that you have . . .it's actually a word I heard on another forum that I picked up.  I know there's something to that "emnity" that God placed between woman and serpent . .that's the splitting . . . but as to the other aspects of ego . . .I've got no qualms with changing the wording and using self instead of ego . . .

I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.

[Zeek]

I believe the larger and most important part of the lie is constantly being left out...

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.


Now the lie...

Genesis 3: 4 "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The whole statement!!

God created man in God's likeness, and the serpent decived Eve (AND the lie passed to Adam through her tesimony) causing them to believe they weren't like God and they became ashamed and HID from His presence because of it.

Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden


That's the whole picture! Man didn't believe they were like God and they felt shame and hid from him and haven't been able to heal this so God sent Jesus to heal it and destroy The serpent who decieved the whole world through the spreading of this lie!

WE ARE LIKE HIM!! Thanks be it to Christ!

1 John 4: 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

Some would say that they were not originally "created" in his image, but rather it was a process that ended in Christ.  A creating act.

I've been told the "tense" of "created" in Genesis is actually creating. 

either way,

our true nature is HIM, a revealing of HIM in us.