Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks
Not sure if we have enough info to determine it it was a deliberate lie or not. No, I'm not defending Eve because she was a woman. But in the scripture, God told Adam to not eat of the tree and some time AFTER that, Eve was created. We are not told if God told Eve the same thing or if perhaps Adam was the one who told Eve not to eat of the tree and perhaps he embellished it with the "do not touch" just to make sure she stayed away and wasn't tempted. But once she ate, he ate too. Scripture says SHE was deceived but Adam was not. Now the woman seems to signify the soul and the man the spirit. Adam 'died' for his bride, and Christ died for his bride.
Perhaps she knew exactly what God said, perhaps not. Someone else may have some more insight into this.
God said:
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
The first lie:
Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,
Gen 3:5 for the Elohim knows that, in the day you eat of it, unclosed shall be your eyes, and you become as the Elohim, knowing good and evil.
I have a good question: how can a fruit so powerful than God or Satan cause us to die?
Didn't God put the tree there himself? Satan did not put it there, why not God "not" put the tree at all so saved all of us before?
If this is God's plan to get people's free wills, I do not know.
Firist lie Gen. 3:3 ".....neither shall you touch it,...."
"Perhaps" Adam told the woman? Perhaps, maybe?
Yes, I believe that the woman is soul and Adam is body; and it is the soul that reveals itself in the wants and desires of verse 6.
This tree in the midst of the garden bears both "fruits" and I may say now that
I consider this story to be allegoric, and true.
I still don't think you have enough info to say that Eve told a deliberate lie. Scripture does not repeat God's declaration to Adam to the woman nor does it say that Adam told her exactly what God said or that he added the extra statement. Undoubtedly the woman is the one who succumbed to the temptation but it is not absolutely incontrovertible that she said what was not told her. The Holy Spirit did not deem it necessary to point that out in clear detail. However, both were given consequences for disobeying God's command. And Eve was subjected to the man. But the accusation was that they ate of the tree, not that there was a lie told, at least by Eve. Satan was accused of deceiving the woman. This isn't an issue I will argue over, it just seems pretty presumptious to declare Eve lied when God didn't even use that in His indictment.
Quote from: IceDash on January 21, 2009, 11:01:58 PM
I have a good question: how can a fruit so powerful than God or Satan cause us to die?
I don't believe the fruit was more powerful than God. But God's word is powerful in that should Adam or Eve eat of the fobidden fruit that "to die they would be dying."
QuoteDidn't God put the tree there himself? Satan did not put it there, why not God "not" put the tree at all so saved all of us before?
Yes, God planted that tree in the very midst of the garden so the primal pair would not miss it. He put the tree there and created Satan "a liar from the beginning" and placed the serpent in that garden for the express purpose of deluding the woman and thus cause Adam to disobey. The reason is so that the promised Seed would come to deliver all mankind from sin and death. Otherwise God would not have a humanity that could truly love Him or thank Him for there would be no reason to.
QuoteIf this is God's plan to get people's free wills, I do not know.
It is just God's plan.
Is "Satan" good or evil?
The Old Testament has nothing to say about a super-unnatural Satan (of orthodox Christianity). Rather, it reveals that the Hebrew word Satan - is a neutral word. Used for anyone who opposes another. It does not necessarily denote, nor is it isolated only to evil, but is dependent on who is doing the resisting, or acting as an opponent; an adversary!
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times [in subsequent stages of growth, or maturity] some shall depart from the faith [of a child], giving heed [consideration or attention] to seducing spirits [of men], and [their] doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (1Timothy 4:1-3)
I have never publicly, or otherwise, denounced CHRIST, but will in all good conscience renounce the errors and doctrines of men, even if thrown in their furnace of literal flames.
The HUMAN Spirit is a Devil, and if ignorant and uncontrolled by the SPIRIT of TRUTH will act devilishly in every way.
Why do you think the heart and mind of man needs to be restored, or regenerated?
Is it because of the input , or is it the output which defiles them?
A complete make-over is in process, to be born again; physically and spiritually changing our form.
Jesus said, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
Jesus did not rebuke him for not believing in the supernatural ... he merely responded with love and compassion when He said, "Touch Me!"
He also said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed ...
... Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed."
I will probably be burned with zeal and passion at the stake, or in a furnace for this ... by the keepers of the flames.
peacemaker
satan is a Hebrew word for adversay/0pposer; I suggest the translators made the
enemy(adversary/opposer) "satan" an enity( a proper noun[an enity that the imaginations of mens minds]made a cowboy with a black hat) that in time, would be to religions and especially christianity, a scapecoat or reason to put the mistakes and errors of our desires.Dave
Quote from: peacemaker on January 22, 2009, 04:43:43 AM
The HUMAN Spirit is a Devil, and if ignorant and uncontrolled by the SPIRIT of TRUTH will act devilishly in every way. [\quote]
:cloud9: Interesting pm; I've been pondering this possibility. Blessings....
QuoteUsed for anyone who opposes another. It does not necessarily denote, nor is it isolated only to evil, but is dependent on who is doing the resisting, or acting as an opponent; an adversary!
There are a few at Tent who too see this as such PM, well ya Know my thoughts from another forum bud.
Stan the man has come around more than a fw times bud :icon_flower:
That which adverse , for one can be shown by the fruit of our Lips
Again Tis that which comes out of a Man defiles him, the Heart Mouth\Tongue\lips seem to connect , to the deceitfulness of whats spoken....( OR pro whats spoken)...The HEART of MAN is deceitful above all things
The POWER OF DEATH, connect with the Devil and the Tongue...interestingly enough
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy HIM that had the
power of death, that is,
the devil; Prov 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that
love it shall eat the fruit thereof Proverbs 18:20 A
man's belly( mind) shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.
words we speak are THE FRUIT of the lips
Isa 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Hbr 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
Alas Peter,at this stage was very much still carnal ,
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him,
saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
For sin Lies at the DOOR
Psalm 141:3 Set a watch, O LORD, BEFORE MY MOUTH KEEP THE
DOOR of MY LIPSProv 21:23 Whoso
keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth HIS SOUL from troubles.Psalm 39:1I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I SIN NOT with MY TONGUE :icon_flower:
In Gen. 3:6 note that Adam was with the woman,
did his lack of action have anything to do with this??
Ken
For me, just as the last book is a revelation of Christ, the last Adam, I see the first book as a revelation of the first Adam . . .The reason for the two trees being in the "midst" of the garden, for me is not so they'd surely run into it . .but it's a picture of the core nature of man. The life . .the spirit . .and the natural reasoning . . .the knowing good from evil.
Even though the tree of knowing was "in" Adam . .in that he had the capability to live according to his own knowledge . . .God didn't want him to live on knowledge, but he wanted him to live in life. Adam "let" Eve listen to the serpent . . .she could either listen to Adam . .through whom the law was established, or she could listen to the serpent "in" the tree of knowledge . . .which is you're carnal man in you as well.
This is the argument we got into yesterday . .and the day before . .and the day before. . .seems to be a pattern there . .hmmm . . I see what Taf and pm see . . .there is an adversary in all of us . . .there is a traducer (devil) in all of us . .it is our carnal mind . . .our natural thinking . . .our soul-sided nature . .not sure how many different ways you can put that . .but it's all one and the same.
God established his law in the Spirit . . .when we let our spirit lead, we are within the blessings of that law. But when we let our own minds prevail, then we are taking the law into our own hands and, like Eve, our minds don't have a clear understanding of what that law is. . .because it's a spiritual law and our minds are not spiritual, they are carnal . . . they have to be spiritually transformed . .which is a process in time within the boundaries of this life. When I die physically, my spirit no longer remains in this wrapper, but it passes through the veil . . .Jesus even says his body is a veil . . .when the body comes to it's end in this life, the spirit passes through the veil of flesh into the spirit realm.
I believe my personality will go with my spirit . . but I don't believe my carnal mind will. Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend the spirit realm . .. outside of that . . .I really can't explain why I see there being a bit of a split . ..the only thing I can say to that is my ego, my carnal veil is removed . .it is separated from my personality . .my Eve at physical death. . . I feel I'm opening yet another can of worms with this . . .
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 05:23:43 PM
For me, just as the last book is a revelation of Christ, the last Adam, I see the first book as a revelation of the first Adam . . .The reason for the two trees being in the "midst" of the garden, for me is not so they'd surely run into it . .but it's a picture of the core nature of man. The life . .the spirit . .and the natural reasoning . . .the knowing good from evil.
Even though the tree of knowing was "in" Adam . .in that he had the capability to live according to his own knowledge . . .God didn't want him to live on knowledge, but he wanted him to live in life. Adam "let" Eve listen to the serpent . . .she could either listen to Adam . .through whom the law was established, or she could listen to the serpent "in" the tree of knowledge . . .which is you're carnal man in you as well.
This is the argument we got into yesterday . .and the day before . .and the day before. . .seems to be a pattern there . .hmmm . . I see what Taf and pm see . . .there is an adversary in all of us . . .there is a traducer (devil) in all of us . .it is our carnal mind . . .our natural thinking . . .our soul-sided nature . .not sure how many different ways you can put that . .but it's all one and the same.
God established his law in the Spirit . . .when we let our spirit lead, we are within the blessings of that law. But when we let our own minds prevail, then we are taking the law into our own hands and, like Eve, our minds don't have a clear understanding of what that law is. . .because it's a spiritual law and our minds are not spiritual, they are carnal . . . they have to be spiritually transformed . .which is a process in time within the boundaries of this life. When I die physically, my spirit no longer remains in this wrapper, but it passes through the veil . . .Jesus even says his body is a veil . . .when the body comes to it's end in this life, the spirit passes through the veil of flesh into the spirit realm.
I believe my personality will go with my spirit . . but I don't believe my carnal mind will. Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend the spirit realm . .. outside of that . . .I really can't explain why I see there being a bit of a split . ..the only thing I can say to that is my ego, my carnal veil is removed . .it is separated from my personality . .my Eve at physical death. . . I feel I'm opening yet another can of worms with this . . .
Hi Nathan,
what do you see the "ego" as? and what is the veil?
For me, I see the ego as a "persona" that believes it is "no good", it's who we believe we are, it's our "identity" in the absence of unconditional love. In order to protect ourselves from "being this" we "build" a house on "sand" (no foundation) to protect us from experiencing our "ego identity". The walls of this house are fear. Whenever something in the world "triggers" our "identity", we feel fear, and do whatever we have to do to cover/bury "the identity" from being true. It's living as a victim of circumstances, people, emotions, and thoughts. The fruit of fear is anxiety, depression, anger, war, separation etc.
The veil, to me is "fear". When we come to the point of coming face to face with fear, and decide (via grace of God) to walk through that fear (false evidence appearing real), we come face to face with our nakedness, and our then covered with unconditional love, Christ in us.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
any thots
Yeah, the ego is the serpent . . it's that part of me that sees everything from a fallen perspective. My spirit is the life, my ego is the knowledge . . .my mind is what chooses between the two. Knowledge puffs up . .if you line up the things that knowledge does with the things my ego does . . .they are a perfect match.
The veil is connected to the ego . . .it has limits and boundaries to what it can see. Law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin . . . my ego is selfconsciousness because it is sin conscious . . . my mind is so powerful that it can actually form sores in my physical body . . .and it can also heal . .it all depends on whether my mind is led by my ego (which I see as natural/carnal reasoning) or my spirit.
My spirit sees all things . ..without reason. It's like a cup . . .it doesn't decide whether it's wine or acid that's poured into it . . .it's not designed to make that discernment . . .it's designed to contain whatever goes into it. If my mind elects to be led by my ego . . .then my cup fills with venom . . .if I choose to be led by this cup . . . that means that my ego is "below" the cup/spirit which then reconnects me to God . . .who is spirit. . .which then life is poured into my mind . .thus the renewal . . .but the ego is always there.
Paul proves this by the famous passage of this inner wrestling. Death means separation . . .when I die to myself . .I'm separating my ego from the throne within me, and I'm placing my spirit in that position. It was created in God's image . . .when I give myself over to that image . .I become transformed into that same image that created it.
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 05:55:55 PM
Yeah, the ego is the serpent . . it's that part of me that sees everything from a fallen perspective. My spirit is the life, my ego is the knowledge . . .my mind is what chooses between the two. Knowledge puffs up . .if you line up the things that knowledge does with the things my ego does . . .they are a perfect match.
The veil is connected to the ego . . .it has limits and boundaries to what it can see. Law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin . . . my ego is selfconsciousness because it is sin conscious . . . my mind is so powerful that it can actually form sores in my physical body . . .and it can also heal . .it all depends on whether my mind is led by my ego (which I see as natural/carnal reasoning) or my spirit.
My spirit sees all things . ..without reason. It's like a cup . . .it doesn't decide whether it's wine or acid that's poured into it . . .it's not designed to make that discernment . . .it's designed to contain whatever goes into it. If my mind elects to be led by my ego . . .then my cup fills with venom . . .if I choose to be led by this cup . . . that means that my ego is "below" the cup/spirit which then reconnects me to God . . .who is spirit. . .which then life is poured into my mind . .thus the renewal . . .but the ego is always there.
Paul proves this by the famous passage of this inner wrestling. Death means separation . . .when I die to myself . .I'm separating my ego from the throne within me, and I'm placing my spirit in that position. It was created in God's image . . .when I give myself over to that image . .I become transformed into that same image that created it.
but you see "physical death" as the veil??
if that is the case, we have to wait for physical death before we live?
did i understand u correctly on your previous post re: the veil??
Hi there all,
I believe that when Jesus was tempted, he was tempted by his ego, not some supernatural devil. The things he was asked to take were things that we want, material things, prestige, power, influence, etc. Yes as The Christ He shunned these egotistical things opting to rely on the Father for everything.
Godbless
Nancy
Quote from: Nancy on February 05, 2009, 06:21:26 PM
Hi there all,
I believe that when Jesus was tempted, he was tempted by his ego, not some supernatural devil. The things he was asked to take were things that we want, material things, prestige, power, influence, etc. Yes as The Christ He shunned these egotistical things opting to rely on the Father for everything.
Godbless
Nancy
and why do we want those things??
in my opinion, to "make us be OK", to make us
feel fulfilled. In the absence of unconditional love.
Jesus, on the other hand; was one with the Father.
thots?
Absolutely Nancy . . . that's how I see it as well. Well said.
Zeek . . .for me, the death is the "completion" of it all . . .accepting Christ is the beginning . . .everything in between is the "process". We have full access "now" into the heavenly things . . but we ourselves don't come into the full completion of that until we're removed from these limited bodies of flesh . .. or . . .until these bodies of flesh are transformed into the heavenly (spiritual/invisible) bodies Hebrews speaks of. Which ever comes first. It's all completed in the Spirit . .just not in the flesh. So as we are in the flesh, we're to enter into the spirit and call out what's finished in the spirit, into the flesh.
Hebrews 10
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God
:cloud9: I'm not saying this to offend anyone or get something started but I would like to bring this up. I'm sure it's me, but the word "ego" just does not work for me. If by ego, you mean self, then I get it, but I don't understand bringing a psychology term, into discussions that have nothing to do with it.
I personally don't feel we have an ego (please put down the stones) I do think we have a spirit, soul, and body, and that soul has a carnal mind. I just don't see where that mind is divided up into parts anywhere, as in who is the absolute authority on that? :dontknow: Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 07:41:29 PM
:cloud9: I'm not saying this to offend anyone or get something started but I would like to bring this up. I'm sure it's me, but the word "ego" just does not work for me. If by ego, you mean self, then I get it, but I don't understand bringing a psychology term, into discussions that have nothing to do with it.
I personally don't feel we have an ego (please put down the stones) I do think we have a spirit, soul, and body, and that soul has a carnal mind. I just don't see where that mind is divided up into parts anywhere, as in who is the absolute authority on that? :dontknow: Blessings.....
I use ego for lack of a better term. Self works there as well. It's coming from Genesis with the relationship between Eve and the serpent. The serpent represents everything carnal . . . the ego is all about self . . . that's the reason for coupling them together. Adam is my spirit, Eve is my mind, and the serpent is what's embedded in the tree of knowledge . . .Eve did not submit to her Adam . . .and Adam "allowed" Eve to rule . . .as a result, that which she chose, became her confinement. And because Adam was the one to whom the authority was given to . . .he to became confined to that which Eve chose . .because when she chose the serpent, she used Adam's authority to make that decision.
My spirit is where the authority is. But if my mind decides to choose "self" then my spirit becomes subjected to self as well. And when I'm walking according to my "self" then my spirit is cut off from commication with God . . .at which point, then God resorts to talking to man by way of natural things, until man chooses to submit to the spirit again at which point, God can once again talk directly to man.
This picture is in Scripture with the revelation given to Peter. When Jesus saw that Peter was receiving direct communication with God . . .he stopped focussing on using pictorials to explain the kingdom . .and began preparing them for the next phase of his ministry . .which is the death, burial, and resurrection.
:cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nathan. What I meant by who is the absolute authority on that, is, who told us the carnal mind had parts in the first place, as in an ego, super ego, ect.? THAT is why the term bothers me, but I do understand using it in place of self. Blessings....
I believe the larger and most important part of the lie is constantly being left out...
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Now the lie...
Genesis 3: 4 "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The whole statement!!
God created man in God's likeness, and the serpent decived Eve (AND the lie passed to Adam through her tesimony) causing them to believe they weren't like God and they became ashamed and HID from His presence because of it.
Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden
That's the whole picture! Man didn't believe they were like God and they felt shame and hid from him and haven't been able to heal this so God sent Jesus to heal it and destroy The serpent who decieved the whole world through the spreading of this lie!
WE ARE LIKE HIM!! Thanks be it to Christ!
1 John 4: 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 07:59:56 PM
:cloud9: Thanks for the reply, Nathan. What I meant by who is the absolute authority on that, is, who told us the carnal mind had parts in the first place, as in an ego, super ego, ect.? THAT is why the term bothers me, but I do understand using it in place of self. Blessings....
Yeah, I don't have the background of understanding on ego that you have . . .it's actually a word I heard on another forum that I picked up. I know there's something to that "emnity" that God placed between woman and serpent . .that's the splitting . . . but as to the other aspects of ego . . .I've got no qualms with changing the wording and using self instead of ego . . .
I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.
Quote from: Dallas on February 05, 2009, 08:02:40 PM
I believe the larger and most important part of the lie is constantly being left out...
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.
Now the lie...
Genesis 3: 4 "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The whole statement!!
God created man in God's likeness, and the serpent decived Eve (AND the lie passed to Adam through her tesimony) causing them to believe they weren't like God and they became ashamed and HID from His presence because of it.
Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden
That's the whole picture! Man didn't believe they were like God and they felt shame and hid from him and haven't been able to heal this so God sent Jesus to heal it and destroy The serpent who decieved the whole world through the spreading of this lie!
WE ARE LIKE HIM!! Thanks be it to Christ!
1 John 4: 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
Some would say that they were not originally "created" in his image, but rather it was a process that ended in Christ. A creating act.
I've been told the "tense" of "created" in Genesis is actually creating.
either way,
our true nature is HIM, a revealing of HIM in us.
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 08:05:18 PM
I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.
:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 08:05:18 PM
I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.
:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I see some of what you all are saying about ourselves being the adversary, etc.
However, what do you do with the book of Job? And other places where the scriptures picture interaction with God and Satan? God asked Satan where he had been and Satan answered he was walking to and fro seeking whom he might devour. I believe Revelation states something similar about him walking in the world. Then God brings Job to Satan's attention. He hardly would have needed to do that if he was speaking directly to Job's psyche. Also when Christ was tempted, 'Satan' said he would give him these things IF Christ would bow down and worship Him. I know scriptures are spiritual but I don't get that if it was something in Christ , That's not how we speak to ourselves. Also scriptures in the NT state that we wrestle against principalities in high places and speaks of dominions, etc. In seeking our own spritual growth, it can be ok to assume we have to conquer our own carnal reasonings, but I see there are also real spiritual demons, if you will. God was in the spiritual realm when he asked who would go and tell a lie to one of the evil kings that would get him to go to the battle where he was killed. Sorry, don't have chapter and verse. And a spirit said he would go. Do you really think God was speaking to that king's mind at the time? Or to one particular prophet?
I know that Satan and his messengers are not quite what they are pictured to be in gothic literature and some men's fanciful imaginations, but I don't think it's always just our carnal minds either.
Just 2 cents worth from a stubborn seeker.
re;the temptation..
what is more prestigous than being like God..what more
powerful, what more riches, what more authority?
He created Adam in His own image...being in His own image
Adam would have come to have these very things..in God's
time. But, at that time...he was naked..lacking these things
the temptation was...to get what you want and will be yours
before the time[presumptousness] through ONE ACT
of DISOBEDIANCE.
this shows a lack of TRUST IN GOD.....Love and trust
go hand in hand..they were naked because LOVE was not
developed in them yet.Trust,neither
satan can mean/slanderer....the liar LIED about God's
character...in-SIN-u-ate[d] that God had lied...and that God
just did not want them to be like Him. Anything not done in
faith[assured expectation of the thing hoped for] is sin.
Adam found that not only was his eyes opened..but that
his nakedness was exposed[lack of love through disobediance]
Our Father sent His son from heaven,One that is in His
image ,and not deceived..and tried him in the wilderness
Father then gave Him all power and authority and granted
Him life in himself.He is made in the IMAGE OF GOD.
Perfected LOVE AND TRUST WORKED THROUGH OBEDIANCE
....He has now gave us authority to eat
from the tree of life...and says 'Come"
It is in Faith that we partake of the tree of life..faith in
HIS SON ...so it is no longer a sin to eat from that tree.
Love and TRUST in GOD is established in the hearts of men..
through the mercy that was extended to us who have
been disobediant.
James 5;7 Be pateint therefore.brethern,unto the
coming of the Lord.Behold, the Husbandman waiteth for
the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long pateince
for it,until he receive the early and latter rain.
mmm, yes Christ was in God's image. Yet He was said to be perfected through suffering.
And Adam and Christ were contrasted so, in my opinion, Adam wasn't really in God's image, but is being made in God's image. As Zeek said. Actually when we're in Christ, in that sense we're in His image, yet we must be perfected through suffering. Again, there's justification, sanctification and glorification. The process can hardly be complete until the glorification, can it? Perhaps God sees it, but He still deals with our imperfections in our 'now.' Until we reach the 'now' of our glorification, we still are incomplete. Again, just how I see it. Paul said he strove to reach the high calling, that didn't sound like he thought he was already there. We can rest assured that we will get there, it's the timing that is in question. We are creatures of time, at least now. What happens 'then' is still in our future.
aggh, I am going to go get ready for work.
you're all great.
Quote from: ScarletWren on February 05, 2009, 08:32:31 PM
I see some of what you all are saying about ourselves being the adversary, etc.
However, what do you do with the book of Job? And other places where the scriptures picture interaction with God and Satan? God asked Satan where he had been and Satan answered he was walking to and fro seeking whom he might devour. I believe Revelation states something similar about him walking in the world. Then God brings Job to Satan's attention. He hardly would have needed to do that if he was speaking directly to Job's psyche. Also when Christ was tempted, 'Satan' said he would give him these things IF Christ would bow down and worship Him. I know scriptures are spiritual but I don't get that if it was something in Christ , That's not how we speak to ourselves. Also scriptures in the NT state that we wrestle against principalities in high places and speaks of dominions, etc. In seeking our own spritual growth, it can be ok to assume we have to conquer our own carnal reasonings, but I see there are also real spiritual demons, if you will. God was in the spiritual realm when he asked who would go and tell a lie to one of the evil kings that would get him to go to the battle where he was killed. Sorry, don't have chapter and verse. And a spirit said he would go. Do you really think God was speaking to that king's mind at the time? Or to one particular prophet?
I know that Satan and his messengers are not quite what they are pictured to be in gothic literature and some men's fanciful imaginations, but I don't think it's always just our carnal minds either.
Just 2 cents worth from a stubborn seeker.
I know you're off to work now . .but I'll give you this so you'll have a little something for when you get back.
I have often asked the same questions as you when dealing with Job and this conversation satan had. I have my own "theory" on what I think went down . . . it's really based on my views alone of an overall picture rather than quoting a Scripture and interpreting it. . .which often times is the same thing anyway . . .
For me . . .there were MANY physical and visual events that were happening when Jesus died on the cross . . .thunderings, earthquakes, sky went black in the middle of the day, veil was torn, dead people walked . . .very dramatic things happening in the physical realm.
Leading up to this, there were a large number of demonic experiences taking place . .as well as after in the ministry of Paul and Peter and such . .. but when pertaining to Satan . . .I think things began to change for him beginning in the garden, then at the cross as well . . .in the garden, he was confined to his belly on the ground . . .yet in Job he says he's roaming to and fro on the earth . .. he was told in Genesis that his substance would be dust . . .
So . .. is all of this then saying that satan moves like we see a snake move? And he only eats dirt to stay alive? No? This isn't to be taken literally then? Ok, if that's not to be taken literally, then why would we assume we're to take literally the happenings with Job?
Keeping in mind, God's ways . .his realm, his "Truth" is not my image of what truth is . . .it's not my understanding of what a "realm" is . .and his ways and thoughts are intimidatingly higher than my thoughts could ever imagine. But for me, if the pattern in the garden is one depicting the carnal, self-centered mind, then why would that be any different when satan is referenced speaking to God?
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 08:05:18 PM
I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.
:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: You're just a born instigator, aren't you? <------- rofl
My :2c:
Satan is a spirit....just like God's Holy spirit can be in us
have us have his mind...so too, can satan.......
if satan is thrown down out of our heavens[throne/dominion
or mind] woe to our earth[flesh] for that is where he will
fight us...does our flesh seem to have a mind of it's own?
does it present itself as an adversary against God's will?
no wonder[could this be signs and wonders?]
Rev 12;12 Therefore, Rejoice,ye heavens, and ye that
dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitors of the earth and of the
sea...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath
because he knoweth that he has but a short time
AND WHEN THE DRAGON SAW THAT HE WAS CAST UNTO THE
, EARTH, HE PERSECUTED THE WOMAN THAT BROUGHT FORTH
THE MANCHILD [son birthed that rose to throne of God]
v15 and the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood
after the woman[many waters can not quench love,SOS]
THAT HE MIGHT CAUSE HER TO BE CARRIED AWAY OF THE
FLOOD [condemned due to sin in flesh[dust of earth]
And the earth HELPED the woman, and the earth opened her
mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of
his mouth.
Sheila
Daniel 9;26
and after threescore and two, Messiah shall be cut off, but not
for himself; and the people of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME
[anti-christ?] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
AND THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A FLOOD
Psalms 32;5,6 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid.I said ,I will confess my transgressions
unto the Lord; and Thou forgavest the iniquity of mine sin
For this shall everyone that is godly pray unto thee ,in a
time when thou mayest be found; surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him
Luke 17;26 Just as it was in the days of Noah,so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.People were eating,drinking,marrying and being given in marriage,
up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the FLOOD came and destroyed them all.
Genesis 6;4 the Nephilim were on the earth in those days-
Nephilim[fallen ones/ thrown out of heaven ones?]
and also afterward....
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the
earth...and that every imagination of the thoughts of his
heart was only evil continually.
Result of the fallen ones being in the earth? I BELEIVE SO
It is war...the kingdom of darkness against the sons of light
Daniel 9;26 the end will come like a flood..the war will continue until the end,and desolations have been decreed
Matthew 24;15 So, when you see standing in the holy place
the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel- let the reader understand-
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains
v 22..if those days had not been cut short, no-one would survive, but, FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT-those days
will be shortened
Regarding the ego--
It was Freud, a cocaine addicted misogynist, who said that the mind is split into ego, id, and superego.
The superego, being our conscience, and a terrifying and punishing conscience at that, is the God replacement.
When God said that he would write his laws on our minds and hearts, did he mean to say--in order to terrorize us night and day? No, Freud said that.
The id is our carnal and sensual, and, most particularly, our sexual desires--which according to Freud includes women desiring to become men rofl. Maybe he was 'projecting'?
The ego is our rational mind--and therefore, our conscious (as opposed to subconscious) and best side. All hail the ego! But our subconscious mind is, by far, our more powerful mind, continually causing us problems.
But, from the point of view of the Bible, there are no such constructs---just asleep and awake (or what some call carnal and spiritual)--for which we are exhorted continually to wake up!
Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
This unfathomable power we call God and rightfully so decided in Its consciousness to make a being of intelligence much like Itself. The stuff of life and living are Its materials.
Now this intelligence needs to communicate to Its created thing so it does in secret messages and through various means. It also creates a very amazing instrument through which God can filter mysterious messages. This instrument that is installed in the created thing is called a brain and it is capable of great things. It is this brain that controls the created thing. Control the brain and the created thing is controled.
So now this Intelligence communicates and has other created things write down what is flowing through the brains. This is very complex to write about so stories are made up and even lived out so the created beings can know themselves and God.
Serpents, trees, apples, waters, and so on are created and used to communicate. Imagination is given to the brain to use to see God. Invisible thoughts arise from this brain like smoke from a fire. An awesome thing, this brain.
God strengthens this brain by introducing it to adversarial elements. The brain strains itself in trying to fathom all that is introduced to it. It sees evil where there really is only good.
God strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.
Yes all, I flipped, but my words mean much to me.
cp
QuoteControl the brain and the created thing is controled
Here, have some more--drugs, sex, alcohol, action movies, a new car, a weekend in vegas--sleep, my pretty....
QuoteIt sees evil where there really is only good.
Yes, I am good for you, I will give you more--prestige, honor, knowledge, money, sex, and drugged transcendental experiences---sleep, my pretty...
QuoteGod strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. --Daniel 2
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 21, 2009, 02:57:29 AM
Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks
Serpent and woman are one and the same being. This is a conversation within the mind of a person. Information came from God to this person through the brain and was processed and an adversarial response was created.
God immediately took action to not only remedy this situation but to use it to further the beauty of the person.
cp
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2009, 01:27:43 AM
QuoteControl the brain and the created thing is controled
QuoteHere, have some more--drugs, sex, alcohol, action movies, a new car, a weekend in vegas--sleep, my pretty....
QuoteIt sees evil where there really is only good.
Yes, I am good for you, I will give you more--prestige, honor, knowledge, money, sex, and drugged transcendental experiences---sleep, my pretty...
QuoteGod strengthens this brain through many mechanizations until it prevails and becomes a most formidable creation.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
--Daniel 2
I hear ya Molly. I'm glad you hear me.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 01:30:59 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 21, 2009, 02:57:29 AM
Here is my thought, I dont know if Im in the right place to ask this but here it goes. In Gen. 3:1 didnt the serpent ask a question only in a different way that the Lord God commanded it in Gen.2:16-17? And if that is so, wasnt it the woman who said the first lie in Gen.3:3 when she said, ...neither shall ye touch it.".. Thanks
Serpent and woman are one and the same being. This is a conversation within the mind of a person. Information came from God to this person through the brain and was processed and an adversarial response was created.
God immediately took action to not only remedy this situation but to use it to further the beauty of the person.
cp
Or, another way to look at it--
God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so she was easily fooled when the serpent said--
Yea, hath God said....
She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.
Here is what God said--
15And the LORD God took the man [eth Adam], and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man [al Adam], saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. This is the first place Adam is called al Adam [god-Man]. He has received the commandment directly from God.
John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Molly, you wrote.....
God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said....
She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.
Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 01:55:37 AM
Molly, you wrote.....
God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said....
She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.
Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.
cp
Yes, I understand what you're saying. There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person. It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.
I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 09:27:21 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 05, 2009, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 05, 2009, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: Nathan on February 05, 2009, 08:05:18 PM
I appreciate your heart . . . I've learned much from you.
:cloud9: Thanks Nathan, ditto for me.... :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Shucks..Where was the Snow ball Fight....guess i best go outside, and launch a few at the Kids :laughing7:
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower: You're just a born instigator, aren't you? <------- rofl
:HeartThrob: :cloud9: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2009, 02:02:55 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 01:55:37 AM
Molly, you wrote.....
God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said....
She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.
Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.
cp
Yes, I understand what you're saying. There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person. It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.
I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.
I understand Molly but am just a wee bit surprised because you of all people have encouraged me to man-up and not throw blame around for what I do. By seeing 3 or 4 beings in the garden we have more to blame. Kind of like Adam saying it is the womans fault and the woman saying it is the serpents fault.
I see one person, me, in the garden and this works for me but I understand completely that what works for me may not at all work for another. Seeing Scripture this way really personalizes Gods message for me. Can't get much more intimate than really believing God is talking directly to you!
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 02:30:58 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2009, 02:02:55 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 06, 2009, 01:55:37 AM
Molly, you wrote.....
God gave the man the commandment directly--the woman heard it second hand--so was easily fooled when the serpent said--Yea, hath God said....
She wasn't really sure what God had said--because He hadn't said it directly to her.
Woman, man and serpent are one person, every person that ever lived, lives and will live. This shows the complexity of a person and the reasoning powers each person has. This shows all that is involved in making a decision. Good input comes from God and is hashed out by a person through the amazing creation of God, the human brain.
cp
Yes, I understand what you're saying. There are others who would say God, man, woman, and serpent are all one person. It's just not instructive for me to think of it that way--at this time.
I see three in the garden--and Adam was supposed to take the place of God in relation to Eve and the serpent, because God wasn't there when the event happened.
I understand Molly but am just a wee bit surprised because you of all people have encouraged me to man-up and not throw blame around for what I do. By seeing 3 or 4 beings in the garden we have more to blame. Kind of like Adam saying it is the womans fault and the woman saying it is the serpents fault.
I see one person, me, in the garden and this works for me but I understand completely that what works for me may not at all work for another. Seeing Scripture this way really personalizes Gods message for me. Can't get much more intimate than really believing God is talking directly to you!
cp
wow I said that? about the blame thing? that's cool. we do have to take responsibility, I'm afraid.
Are you thinking that somehow, one part of you is talking directly to God, and the other part of you is not hearing it?
Remember, they didn't start blaming each other until their eyes were 'opened'--but notice, the serpent didn't dare open his mouth in the presence of God lol. Who was he going to blame?
So one part of you knows what is going on and the other part is deceived? And one part of you is evil and the other part good? I'm not sure how you are working it out, exactly.
I really meant to say that Adam is supposed to be acting as agent for God. I'm not prepared to say that Adam shirked that responsibility. I think he did the only thing he could do, given what was required. As I've said before, I see him as first high priest, and the only blood he had to offer was his own.
There is not that much difference between Adam and ourselves in terms of what we are to do. We, too, are acting as agents for God. Jesus has given us his power of atty in that respect. Sign my name to it, he says--whatever you ask for in my name...
But, if we cross the line from agent to 'we are in charge', we are [our own] God--then we become antiChrist. I think it looks like Adam did that on the surface of things--that he made the decision for Eve instead of for the LORD God--but then later we find out this was no accident...
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity,not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."creature"G2937
κτίσις
ktisisktis'-is
From G2936;
original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
G2936
κτίζω
ktizōktid'-zo
Probably akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, that is, found (form originally): - create,
Creator, make.
Molly, you wrote....
Are you thinking that somehow, one part of you is talking directly to God, and the other part of you is not hearing it?
So one part of you knows what is going on and the other part is deceived? And one part of you is evil and the other part good? I'm not sure how you are working it out, exactly.
I never look at it as one part this and one part that. It is all one. I am me.
Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man. A mystery to be sure but true as I see it.
There is the old man within my essence and there is the new man. Not 2 men, not even 2 entities. One man, me, one essence. I am the man God is making of me and I am a marred pot. I am both. I'm in a state of flux. Ever see the seething almost lifelike lava of boiling metal? It moves and changes and at every moment is turning solid and liquid and even a vaporous smoke all seemingly at the same time. Eventually it becomes what its master wants it to become and then it will be finished. I am finished in Christ, I am unfinished in Adam and between the 2 I am in a state of flux, of becoming.
cp
Here's a little something to chew on . . .when God gave Adam his one commandment of what not to do . . . Eve existed . .but not in her independant form . . .she was "in" Adam when the law was given . .and when she was separated "from" Adam . .the law was still in her. She is a reflection . . .her image mirrors Adam. What is in him, is also in her.
Paul stated that he died on the cross when Christ did because he was spiritually speaking, "in" Christ loins at his death.
The tribe of levi paid tithe to Melchezedek, even though they didn't exist yet, due to the fact that they were "in the loins" of Abraham.
Hebrews 7
8-10Or look at it this way: We pay our tithes to priests who die, but Abraham paid tithes to a priest who, the Scripture says, "lives." Ultimately you could even say that since Levi descended from Abraham, who paid tithes to Melchizedek, when we pay tithes to the priestly tribe of Levi they end up with Melchizedek.