Why does God Choose Just So Many Now for Salvation?

[Tony N]

A guy on another message board asked me this:

Why would God choose some now and not choose others?  What is the purpose for that exactly?

My answer:
Why has God been choosing people for the past almost 2000 years and not others?

God's program is kind of like a Fortune 1 business. In this business He needs only so many managers and so many workers. The business won't really open for operation until the commencement of the next two eons/ages (the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon.

In that business we will have an administration:

Eph 1:10-12  to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth"  (11)  in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,  (12)  that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ."

Notice what the business end of that administration is? It is to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens (not heaven but heavens) and all on the earth.

So God only needs so many people to be a part of that business.

We don't accuse Ford or Chrysler of wrongdoing for choosing just so many people to be in their businesses and neither should we accuse God of wrongdoing.

Ford and Chrysler try to choose the best. God does just the opposite. He chooses the worst.

1Co 1:26-29  For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble,  (27)  but the stupid ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weak ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong,  (28)  and the ignoble and the contemptible ones of the world God chooses, and those who are nobodies, that He may be discarding those who are something,  (29)  so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight.

But this is not the end all of God's program.

Eventually the rest of mankind will come into the blessings of what Christ secured for them because He ransomed them too (1 Timothy 2:4-6). But the rest of all mankind don't really come into the blessings until the end of the ages.

There are three stages to God's program:

1Co 15:22-28  For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."  (23)  Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit [class], Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's [class or group] in His presence;"  (24)  thereafter the consummation [class or group], whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.  (27)  For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."  (28)  Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"

Spurgeon and Calvin's plan turn God into the most hideous monster far far worse than the pagan gods.
In their program God brings people into existence for the sole purpose of torturing them in flames for eternity. Some god, huh? Now that's the kind of god I can bow down with heartfelt adoration and worship with a loving, thankful heart! Not!
Spurgeon and Calvin's eyes were just not open to God's great plan of the ages, to head up all in the Christ and for God to be All in all.

[Molly]

I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right).   What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Does it have something to do with this?

17 Iron sharpens iron,
    and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27


So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken?  This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.

[WhiteWings]

Revelation 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

Psalm 2:9  Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

All verses speak about nations. To make  a worldwide kingdom under the rule of Jesus the current kingdoms need to be destroyed. (put under His feet?) :spank:
Just a thought :Chinscratch:

[claypot]

I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right).   What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Does it have something to do with this?

17 Iron sharpens iron,
    and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27


So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken?  This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.

Let me very respectfully 'play' with this if you will Molly.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron in the Millenium.

You know me, let's look inside of ourselves.

Christ = the divine essence that lights every man that comes into the world.

Rod of iron = it's powerful nature especially compared to the 'old man' nature. Rod of iron speaks of destruction of something obviously.

Millenium = when a person matures into the spirit realm more fully.

Practical application IMO = At some point in my existence the Divine essence within will overcome my carnal/death/sleep essence. This is being made into the image of God.

cp

[claypot]

Tony, you wrote...

A guy on another message board asked me this:

Why would God choose some now and not choose others?  What is the purpose for that exactly?

I would have answered that God loves Jacob and hates Esau.   

When I answer this way to such questions I get the response of why does Scripture explicitly point out that God hates this guy so much?

When I explain that Esau represents our carnal nature while Jacob represents our divine nature then I am usually met with a bit of understanding.

cp

[claypot]

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Hey Molly,

You were speaking of Christ ruling with a rod of iron.

If looked at physically literal it should give you the creeps but if you could see the spirit of the message then you would rejoice with unspeakable joy at how our carnality will be dealt with.

If looked at with the natural mind it makes Jesus Christ out to be no better than those 'Inquisition' types He condemns. This is the problem I have with my 'eternal torment believing' neighbors. They make Christ out to be as I said above because they want Scripture to be taken in a physical literal way as much as possible while ignoring the spirit of the Message.

cp

[Zeek]

I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right).   What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Does it have something to do with this?

17 Iron sharpens iron,
    and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27


So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken?  This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.

Let me very respectfully 'play' with this if you will Molly.

Christ ruling with a rod of iron in the Millenium.

You know me, let's look inside of ourselves.

Christ = the divine essence that lights every man that comes into the world.

Rod of iron = it's powerful nature especially compared to the 'old man' nature. Rod of iron speaks of destruction of something obviously.

Millenium = when a person matures into the spirit realm more fully.

Practical application IMO = At some point in my existence the Divine essence within will overcome my carnal/death/sleep essence. This is being made into the image of God.

cp

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

[Tony N]

I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right).   What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Does it have something to do with this?

17 Iron sharpens iron,
    and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27


So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken?  This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.

Hi Molly,
The iron club is not a literal iron club just as the sword which issues out of the mouth of Christ on the throne is not a literal sword but stands for the words which issue forth from His mouth.

Likewise the iron club stands for rule that is not to be opposed and a rod that is not easily broken.

If we look at Matthew 25:31-46 we see the beginning of that rule with the rod of iron with the nations.

[claypot]

I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right).   What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?

It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition.  And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.

Does it have something to do with this?

17 Iron sharpens iron,
    and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27


So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken?  This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.

Hi Molly,
The iron club is not a literal iron club just as the sword which issues out of the mouth of Christ on the throne is not a literal sword but stands for the words which issue forth from His mouth.

Likewise the iron club stands for rule that is not to be opposed and a rod that is not easily broken.

If we look at Matthew 25:31-46 we see the beginning of that rule with the rod of iron with the nations.

Tony, you spiritual guy you.

cp

[sheila]

  Isaaih 30;32

    every stroke the Lord lays on them with his punishing rod

  will be to the music of tamborines and harps[victory

  song/dance of deliverance?/new song]

   Rev 15; And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with

fire,and standing beside the sea,those who had been victorious

over the beast and his image,and over the number of his name

  they held HARPS given them by God and sang the song of

  Moses,the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....rod = upright, iron = judgment. Rod of iron = righteous judgment, or put another way, judgment that has a pure motive. God's judgments are unto victory because He can kill AND make alive ie. resurrect.

Man can only kill with the sword, apart from the Spirit of God leading him, until the motive of the heart has been cleansed by His Spirit. Then the tongue becomes a flaming sword, able to impart life. Blessings...

[sheila]

   Rev 15;4   Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for

   ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU

   FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST

[IceDash]

   Rev 15;4   Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for

   ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU

   FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST

But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.

[sheila]

  It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh

behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused

about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what

He has done.   

     There are many many former everythings up there,

prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.

   they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...

         When they learn of God's judgements they

   worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..

  they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is

  doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of

  God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all

  mankind.

                                      Sheila

[claypot]

  It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh

behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused

about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what

He has done.   

     There are many many former everythings up there,

prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.

   they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...

         When they learn of God's judgements they

   worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..

  they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is

  doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of

  God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all

  mankind.

                                      Sheila

That sounds so right, Sheila.

cp

[sparrow]

Sheila..  :goodpost:

[Tony N]

  It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh

behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused

about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what

He has done.   

     There are many many former everythings up there,

prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.

   they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...

         When they learn of God's judgements they

   worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..

  they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is

  doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of

  God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all

  mankind.

                                      Sheila

Dear Shiela,
I hate to be a fly in the ointment but . . .
We only meet the Lord when the Lord comes for us in the air:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If people go to heaven when they die, then why are we more forelorn than all men if there is no resurrection of the dead? And why have those who have fallen asleep in Christ perished if they are already with the Lord with they die?

1Co 15:12-18  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?  (13)  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:  (14)  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.  (15)  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.  (16)  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:  (17)  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.  (18)  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

All the dead must come out of their tombs and meet all the living at the same time in the air before we meet the Lord. It is not a one at a time thing.

Cheers dear sis.

Tony

[sheila]

  No...

  those that have fallen asleep in death come with Him

to meet us..they are already with Him.

  we that remain alive will in no means precede those that

  have fallen asleep in death.

  How do you explain Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus in the transfiguration?  He is the God of the Living,not the dead
for all live unto Him

   Jesus only did what He saw His Father in heaven doing...
  raising the dead, opening deaf ears, giving sight to the blind

  write..blessed are the dead which die of the Lord from henceforth


   you are in eror because you do not know the scriptures
  or the power of God
  but about the resurrection of the dead- have you not read what God said to you.

   'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.
   He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..

  ... at the resurrection people will be like the angels of heaven

  .....Jesus said 'I am the resurrection" also he is the Lamb
that was slain before the founding of the world

  in the resurrection on the Last day....it is the last day
  for those who have died..for time will be no more..
  time is related as only to the time we dwell on earth

  when the Mighty angel says TIME WILL BE NO MORE
  He is referring  to the time when the full roll of heaven's
  number will be taken home. There will have been the full number sent down of the sons of God..and the time for them all to dwell on the earth finished..

  everyday is TODAY in HeavenLuke 23;43

  Matthew 27;51-53  at that moment the curtain of the temple was torn into from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

  or do you not beleive that? did they have to return to their tombs again?or was that not the proper time for them to be resurrected?

[Tony N]

Shiela, you give many good ideas to think on.

Those who came out of their tombs in Matt.27 died later on not having been requited with the promises.

Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesies to these also, saying, "Lo! the Lord came among ten thousand of His saints,

The above verse does not mean that there are ten thousand saints in heaven right now and that these saints come back with Him. It means that when He sets foot on Zion then the saints who are on the earth at that time gather to Him.

How do you explain Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus in the transfiguration?  He is the God of the Living,not the dead for all live unto Him

It was just a vision:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

God is the God not the God of the dead but of the living. He can't be their God unless He resurrect them to be living. The whole point is about resurrection from the dead.

Sheila, honey pie, if there is no resurrection of our dead bodies, then vain is our faith and we all perish.

[Doc]

   Rev 15;4   Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for

   ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU

   FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST

But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.

They will eventually. The scriptural promises guarantee it.

[Tony N]

   Rev 15;4   Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for

   ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU

   FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST

But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.

They will eventually. The scriptural promises guarantee it.

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

  Vision= to see,know

 that which is seen otherwise than by the ordinary sight

     transfigure= to change the form or appearance of

 metamorphose

    was it a vision or were their eyes opened to a spiritual

 reality?Isay spiritual reality

  2 Kings 6;15  when the servant of the man of God
 got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city.

 O my Lord,what shall we do, the servant asked

  Don't be afraid, the prophet answered Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.

and Elisha prayed'O Lord, open his eyes so he may see"

 then the Lord opened the servants eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire
all around Elisha

as the enemy came down toward him,Elisha prayed to the Lord
'strike these people with blindness" so he struck them with blindness as Elisha had asked.

  Matthew 8;10  ..............

   I say to you,that many will come from the east and the west
  and will take their places at the feast with Abraham,Isaac
 and Jacob in the kingdom. But the subjects of the kingdom will
 be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be
 weeping and gnashing of teeth

   v22 But Jesus told him 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead"

[claypot]

1Co 15:12-18  Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?  (13)  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:  (14)  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.  (15)  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.  (16)  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:  (17)  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.  (18)  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

The Christ is sent into me, you, all (world). When God chooses to do this (galatians 1.15) it is as though Christ is 'preached' to me. It's as if He rose from the dead for I was dead before this manifestation of Him. I look at myself and I can't say there is no resurrection from the dead! If Christ is not alive in me then there is no resurrection from the dead and my preaching and faith is in vain.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Only that which is of God within is alive and everlasting. This essence will be one with the Christ.

cp

[claypot]

Great stuff Sheila and you too Tony.

You bring up one of my favorite truths of Scripture.....

2 Kings 6;15  when the servant of the man of God
  got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city.

  O my Lord,what shall we do, the servant asked

   Don't be afraid, the prophet answered Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.

and Elisha prayed'O Lord, open his eyes so he may see"

  then the Lord opened the servants eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire
all around Elisha

I see this as people being made into the image of God via the Christ. A newborn opening its eyes for the first time. People (Adam) coming out of their deep sleep. A truely inspired writing. A perfect parallel between the natural and spiritual. (I too like to use the word 'natural' when speaking of the physical or carnal realm).

Tony, you may not like this, but I see it as when a person has his or her eyes opened from seeing things that are literal physical to literal spiritual. Could be I am just biased but there it is.

cp

[Tony N]

Dear cp, thanks for your thoughts.

The problem I perceive through my spiritual eyes is that when one says "first the natural then the spiritual" that this saying is not spiritual.

It is not in accord with Scripture to say "first the natural then the spiritual." To say such a thing is unspiritual. It goes counter to what God has said. Do you find that it is a spiritual thing to go counter to what He said?

I'm not saying that there are not types and shadows of things in the old testament which are of the true in the New Testament.

I'm saying this: To quote Elijah and the servant and that event has nothing to do with "first the soulish then the spiritual."

The phrase "first the soulish then the spiritual" is about Adam coming first and then Christ coming later. It is not saying there's a hidden meaning in Adam which is a hidden spiritual meaning. It just means that Adam came first as a soulish person and later on Christ came as a spiritual person.

"First the soulish then the spiritual."

If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is
written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the
last Adam a vivifying Spirit."  (46)  But not first the spiritual,
but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."  (47)  The first man was
out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." 
(48)  Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish,
and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
(49)  And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should
be wearing the image also of the Celestial." (1Cor. 15:45-49 )