A guy on another message board asked me this:
Why would God choose some now and not choose others? What is the purpose for that exactly?
My answer:
Why has God been choosing people for the past almost 2000 years and not others?
God's program is kind of like a Fortune 1 business. In this business He needs only so many managers and so many workers. The business won't really open for operation until the commencement of the next two eons/ages (the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon.
In that business we will have an administration:
Eph 1:10-12 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" (11) in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, (12) that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ."
Notice what the business end of that administration is? It is to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens (not heaven but heavens) and all on the earth.
So God only needs so many people to be a part of that business.
We don't accuse Ford or Chrysler of wrongdoing for choosing just so many people to be in their businesses and neither should we accuse God of wrongdoing.
Ford and Chrysler try to choose the best. God does just the opposite. He chooses the worst.
1Co 1:26-29 For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble, (27) but the stupid ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weak ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong, (28) and the ignoble and the contemptible ones of the world God chooses, and those who are nobodies, that He may be discarding those who are something, (29) so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight.
But this is not the end all of God's program.
Eventually the rest of mankind will come into the blessings of what Christ secured for them because He ransomed them too (1 Timothy 2:4-6). But the rest of all mankind don't really come into the blessings until the end of the ages.
There are three stages to God's program:
1Co 15:22-28 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (23) Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit [class], Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's [class or group] in His presence;" (24) thereafter the consummation [class or group], whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (25) For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. (26) The last enemy is being abolished: death. (27) For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." (28) Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
Spurgeon and Calvin's plan turn God into the most hideous monster far far worse than the pagan gods.
In their program God brings people into existence for the sole purpose of torturing them in flames for eternity. Some god, huh? Now that's the kind of god I can bow down with heartfelt adoration and worship with a loving, thankful heart! Not!
Spurgeon and Calvin's eyes were just not open to God's great plan of the ages, to head up all in the Christ and for God to be All in all.
I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right). What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Does it have something to do with this?
17 Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27
So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken? This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
All verses speak about nations. To make a worldwide kingdom under the rule of Jesus the current kingdoms need to be destroyed. (put under His feet?) :spank:
Just a thought :Chinscratch:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 09:20:50 PM
I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right). What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Does it have something to do with this?
17 Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27
So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken? This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.
Let me very respectfully 'play' with this if you will Molly.
Christ ruling with a rod of iron in the Millenium.
You know me, let's look inside of ourselves.
Christ = the divine essence that lights every man that comes into the world.
Rod of iron = it's powerful nature especially compared to the 'old man' nature. Rod of iron speaks of destruction of something obviously.
Millenium = when a person matures into the spirit realm more fully.
Practical application IMO = At some point in my existence the Divine essence within will overcome my carnal/death/sleep essence. This is being made into the image of God.
cp
Tony, you wrote...
A guy on another message board asked me this:
Why would God choose some now and not choose others? What is the purpose for that exactly?
I would have answered that God loves Jacob and hates Esau.
When I answer this way to such questions I get the response of why does Scripture explicitly point out that God hates this guy so much?
When I explain that Esau represents our carnal nature while Jacob represents our divine nature then I am usually met with a bit of understanding.
cp
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 09:20:50 PM
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Hey Molly,
You were speaking of Christ ruling with a rod of iron.
If looked at physically literal it should give you the creeps but if you could see the spirit of the message then you would rejoice with unspeakable joy at how our carnality will be dealt with.
If looked at with the natural mind it makes Jesus Christ out to be no better than those 'Inquisition' types He condemns. This is the problem I have with my 'eternal torment believing' neighbors. They make Christ out to be as I said above because they want Scripture to be taken in a physical literal way as much as possible while ignoring the spirit of the Message.
cp
Quote from: claypot on January 31, 2009, 10:01:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 09:20:50 PM
I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right). What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Does it have something to do with this?
17 Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27
So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken? This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.
Let me very respectfully 'play' with this if you will Molly.
Christ ruling with a rod of iron in the Millenium.
You know me, let's look inside of ourselves.
Christ = the divine essence that lights every man that comes into the world.
Rod of iron = it's powerful nature especially compared to the 'old man' nature. Rod of iron speaks of destruction of something obviously.
Millenium = when a person matures into the spirit realm more fully.
Practical application IMO = At some point in my existence the Divine essence within will overcome my carnal/death/sleep essence. This is being made into the image of God.
cp
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even
our faith.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 09:20:50 PM
I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right). What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Does it have something to do with this?
17 Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27
So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken? This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.
Hi Molly,
The iron club is not a literal iron club just as the sword which issues out of the mouth of Christ on the throne is not a literal sword but stands for the words which issue forth from His mouth.
Likewise the iron club stands for rule that is not to be opposed and a rod that is not easily broken.
If we look at Matthew 25:31-46 we see the beginning of that rule with the rod of iron with the nations.
Quote from: Tony N on January 31, 2009, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2009, 09:20:50 PM
I have a question--why does the Christ rule with a rod of iron during the millenium (if I am reading that right). What is the meaning of 'rod of iron'?
It gives me the creeps because it sounds too much like the Inquisition. And, I'm sure there are Inquisition types lurking about hoping for another shot.
Does it have something to do with this?
17 Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.
--Prov 27
So the iron is sharpened but the clay is broken? This is one case where I would like a purely spiritual interpretation.
Hi Molly,
The iron club is not a literal iron club just as the sword which issues out of the mouth of Christ on the throne is not a literal sword but stands for the words which issue forth from His mouth.
Likewise the iron club stands for rule that is not to be opposed and a rod that is not easily broken.
If we look at Matthew 25:31-46 we see the beginning of that rule with the rod of iron with the nations.
Tony, you spiritual guy you.
cp
Isaaih 30;32
every stroke the Lord lays on them with his punishing rod
will be to the music of tamborines and harps[victory
song/dance of deliverance?/new song]
Rev 15; And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with
fire,and standing beside the sea,those who had been victorious
over the beast and his image,and over the number of his name
they held HARPS given them by God and sang the song of
Moses,the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.
:cloud9: My :2c:.....rod = upright, iron = judgment. Rod of iron = righteous judgment, or put another way, judgment that has a pure motive. God's judgments are unto victory because He can kill AND make alive ie. resurrect.
Man can only kill with the sword, apart from the Spirit of God leading him, until the motive of the heart has been cleansed by His Spirit. Then the tongue becomes a flaming sword, able to impart life. Blessings...
Rev 15;4 Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for
ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU
FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 12:00:25 AM
Rev 15;4 Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for
ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU
FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST
But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.
It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh
behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused
about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what
He has done.
There are many many former everythings up there,
prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.
they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...
When they learn of God's judgements they
worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..
they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is
doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of
God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all
mankind.
Sheila
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 02:06:05 AM
It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh
behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused
about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what
He has done.
There are many many former everythings up there,
prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.
they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...
When they learn of God's judgements they
worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..
they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is
doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of
God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all
mankind.
Sheila
That sounds so right, Sheila.
cp
Sheila.. :goodpost:
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 02:06:05 AM
It happens every day..when they die and leave this flesh
behind,,and rise to heaven..they will no longer be confused
about who God is and what God is and what He is doing or what
He has done.
There are many many former everythings up there,
prostitutes,heretics,sodomites,sinners idolaters,murderer's etc.
they are 'altered' upon the altar of heaven...
When they learn of God's judgements they
worship Him. Down here many have not know Him..
they have been told lies etc about God,who he is what He is
doing. Most of us live and die down here in total ignorance of
God. They Praise Him for the salvation He has worked for all
mankind.
Sheila
Dear Shiela,
I hate to be a fly in the ointment but . . .
We only meet the Lord when the Lord comes for us in the air:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If people go to heaven when they die, then why are we more forelorn than all men if there is no resurrection of the dead? And why have those who have fallen asleep in Christ perished if they are already with the Lord with they die?
1Co 15:12-18 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
All the dead must come out of their tombs and meet all the living at the same time in the air before we meet the Lord. It is not a one at a time thing.
Cheers dear sis.
Tony
No...
those that have fallen asleep in death come with Him
to meet us..they are already with Him.
we that remain alive will in no means precede those that
have fallen asleep in death.
How do you explain Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus in the transfiguration? He is the God of the Living,not the dead
for all live unto Him
Jesus only did what He saw His Father in heaven doing...
raising the dead, opening deaf ears, giving sight to the blind
write..blessed are the dead which die of the Lord from henceforth
you are in eror because you do not know the scriptures
or the power of God
but about the resurrection of the dead- have you not read what God said to you.
'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..
... at the resurrection people will be like the angels of heaven
.....Jesus said 'I am the resurrection" also he is the Lamb
that was slain before the founding of the world
in the resurrection on the Last day....it is the last day
for those who have died..for time will be no more..
time is related as only to the time we dwell on earth
when the Mighty angel says TIME WILL BE NO MORE
He is referring to the time when the full roll of heaven's
number will be taken home. There will have been the full number sent down of the sons of God..and the time for them all to dwell on the earth finished..
everyday is TODAY in HeavenLuke 23;43
Matthew 27;51-53 at that moment the curtain of the temple was torn into from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
or do you not beleive that? did they have to return to their tombs again?or was that not the proper time for them to be resurrected?
Shiela, you give many good ideas to think on.
Those who came out of their tombs in Matt.27 died later on not having been requited with the promises.
Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesies to these also, saying, "Lo! the Lord came among ten thousand of His saints,
The above verse does not mean that there are ten thousand saints in heaven right now and that these saints come back with Him. It means that when He sets foot on Zion then the saints who are on the earth at that time gather to Him.
QuoteHow do you explain Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus in the transfiguration? He is the God of the Living,not the dead for all live unto Him
It was just a vision:
Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may
tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."
God is the God not the God of the dead but of the living. He can't be their God unless He resurrect them to be living. The whole point is about resurrection from the dead.
Sheila, honey pie, if there is no resurrection of our dead bodies, then vain is our faith and we all perish.
Quote from: IceDash on February 02, 2009, 01:50:31 AM
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 12:00:25 AM
Rev 15;4 Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for
ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU
FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST
But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.
They will eventually. The scriptural promises guarantee it.
Quote from: Doc on February 02, 2009, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: IceDash on February 02, 2009, 01:50:31 AM
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2009, 12:00:25 AM
Rev 15;4 Who shall not fear thee,O Lord, and Glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for
ALL NATIONS SHALL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU
FOR THY JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE MANIFEST
But how that going to work for the muslim world? They not going to confess Jesus is lord.
They will eventually. The scriptural promises guarantee it.
:thumbsup:
Vision= to see,know
that which is seen otherwise than by the ordinary sight
transfigure= to change the form or appearance of
metamorphose
was it a vision or were their eyes opened to a spiritual
reality?Isay spiritual reality
2 Kings 6;15 when the servant of the man of God
got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city.
O my Lord,what shall we do, the servant asked
Don't be afraid, the prophet answered Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.
and Elisha prayed'O Lord, open his eyes so he may see"
then the Lord opened the servants eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire
all around Elisha
as the enemy came down toward him,Elisha prayed to the Lord
'strike these people with blindness" so he struck them with blindness as Elisha had asked.
Matthew 8;10 ..............
I say to you,that many will come from the east and the west
and will take their places at the feast with Abraham,Isaac
and Jacob in the kingdom. But the subjects of the kingdom will
be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth
v22 But Jesus told him 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead"
1Co 15:12-18 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: (14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. (15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. (16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: (17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. (18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The Christ is sent into me, you, all (world). When God chooses to do this (galatians 1.15) it is as though Christ is 'preached' to me. It's as if He rose from the dead for I was dead before this manifestation of Him. I look at myself and I can't say there is no resurrection from the dead! If Christ is not alive in me then there is no resurrection from the dead and my preaching and faith is in vain.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Only that which is of God within is alive and everlasting. This essence will be one with the Christ.
cp
Great stuff Sheila and you too Tony.
You bring up one of my favorite truths of Scripture.....
2 Kings 6;15 when the servant of the man of God
got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city.
O my Lord,what shall we do, the servant asked
Don't be afraid, the prophet answered Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.
and Elisha prayed'O Lord, open his eyes so he may see"
then the Lord opened the servants eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire
all around Elisha
I see this as people being made into the image of God via the Christ. A newborn opening its eyes for the first time. People (Adam) coming out of their deep sleep. A truely inspired writing. A perfect parallel between the natural and spiritual. (I too like to use the word 'natural' when speaking of the physical or carnal realm).
Tony, you may not like this, but I see it as when a person has his or her eyes opened from seeing things that are literal physical to literal spiritual. Could be I am just biased but there it is.
cp
Dear cp, thanks for your thoughts.
The problem I perceive through my spiritual eyes is that when one says "first the natural then the spiritual" that this saying is not spiritual.
It is not in accord with Scripture to say "first the natural then the spiritual." To say such a thing is unspiritual. It goes counter to what God has said. Do you find that it is a spiritual thing to go counter to what He said?
I'm not saying that there are not types and shadows of things in the old testament which are of the true in the New Testament.
I'm saying this: To quote Elijah and the servant and that event has nothing to do with "first the soulish then the spiritual."
The phrase "first the soulish then the spiritual" is about Adam coming first and then Christ coming later. It is not saying there's a hidden meaning in Adam which is a hidden spiritual meaning. It just means that Adam came first as a soulish person and later on Christ came as a spiritual person.
"First the soulish then the spiritual."
If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is
written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the
last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual,
but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was
out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
(48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish,
and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
(49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should
be wearing the image also of the Celestial." (1Cor. 15:45-49 )
G5591 psuchikos psoo-khee-kos'
from G5590;
sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is
the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the
lower or bestial nature):--natural, sensual.
First the natural according to how God made us. We are higher and renovated over other things in creation. Soulish is the nature in which we are in the natural. Our spiritual nature is beyond the flesh, beyond what we can demonstrate physically or with our feelings.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
G5591 psuchikos psoo-khee-kos'
from G5590;
sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is
the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the
lower or bestial nature):--natural, sensual.
First the natural according to how God made us. We are higher and renovated over other things in creation. Soulish is the nature in which we are in the natural. Our spiritual nature is beyond the flesh, beyond what we can demonstrate physically or with our feelings.
Dear Paul,
What does that have to do with:
The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the
last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual,
but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was
out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
It's not about us but about Adam and Christ.
It is about us because we are on the journey from the natural to the spiritual.
The bible is the message for us and it uses Adam and Christ as a picture to tell us our journey.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 05:04:10 PM
It is about us because we are on the journey from the natural to the spiritual.
The bible is the message for us and it uses Adam and Christ as a picture to tell us our journey.
Excellent thought, Paul! It makes sense.
1Co 15:46-49 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
(47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
(48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish,
and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
(49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be
wearing the image also of the Celestial."
I see where you are coming from and where you are heading.
1Cr 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God
2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350 .
1Cr 15:44 It is sown 4687 a natural 5591 body 4983; it is raised 1453 a spiritual 4152 body 4983. There is 2076 a natural 5591 body 4983, and 2532 there is 2076 a spiritual 4152 body 4983.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit 235 that [was] not 3756 first 4412 which is spiritual 4152, but 235 that which is natural 5591; and afterward 1899 that which is spiritual 4152.
Jud 1:19 These 3778 be 1526 they who separate 592 themselves 1438, sensual 5591, having 2192 not 3361 the Spirit 4151.
The natural man is not the sensual\soulish man
spliting hairs and words over NOTHING
Jam 3:15 This 3778 wisdom 4678 descendeth 2076 2718 not 3756 from above 509, but 235 [is] earthly 1919, sensual 5591, devilish 1141.
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 05:12:05 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 05:04:10 PM
It is about us because we are on the journey from the natural to the spiritual.
The bible is the message for us and it uses Adam and Christ as a picture to tell us our journey.
Excellent thought, Paul! It makes sense.
1Co 15:46-49 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
(47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
(48) Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish,
and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials."
(49) And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be
wearing the image also of the Celestial."
I see where you are coming from and where you are heading.
Yaposted this over me Tony....
Amen...
sorry to repeat types, shadows , similtudes, but the scroptures repeat this
Tis what I refer to as
Flesh v Spirit
Old man v new Man
Old C V New C
Drakness v Light
Night VDay
esau v Jacob
Cain VAbel\Seth
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Physical Temple V spiritual Temple
and list just goes on T...is there a Better way to learn than Repition?
T
Quote from: Taffy on February 03, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
1Cr 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God
2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350 .
1Cr 15:44 It is sown 4687 a natural 5591 body 4983; it is raised 1453 a spiritual 4152 body 4983. There is 2076 a natural 5591 body 4983, and 2532 there is 2076 a spiritual 4152 body 4983.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit 235 that [was] not 3756 first 4412 which is spiritual 4152, but 235 that which is natural 5591; and afterward 1899 that which is spiritual 4152.
Jud 1:19 These 3778 be 1526 they who separate 592 themselves 1438, sensual 5591, having 2192 not 3361 the Spirit 4151.
The natural man is not the sensual\soulish man
spliting hairs and words over NOTHING
Jam 3:15 This 3778 wisdom 4678 descendeth 2076 2718 not 3756 from above 509, but 235 [is] earthly 1919, sensual 5591, devilish 1141.
Taffy, that's my whole point. Adam was not a natural man but a soulish man. That is what the Scriptures tell us.
They are not the same thing.
You wrote:
Tis what I refer to as
Flesh v Spirit
Old man v new Man
Old C V New C
Drakness v Light
Night VDay
esau v Jacob
Cain VAbel\Seth
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Physical Temple V spiritual Temple
and list just goes on T...is there a Better way to learn than Repition?
Good points bro.
Don't forget one more: Soulish V Spiritual :laughing7:
It is because ADAM[Man] is a two part creation
for this reason animals with split hooves that chewed the cud were considered clean.
Secrets of Enoch 30;12 I conceived a cunning saying to say
I created man from invisible and visible nature, of both are his death and life and image, he knows speech like some created thing, small in greatness,and again great in smallness.
And I placed him on earth, a second angel, honourous,great and glorious. And I appointed him as ruler to rule on earth,
and to have my wisdom, and there was none like him on earth
of all my existing creatures
as we have born the image of the corruptible,so,too, we shall
bear the image of the incorruptible
Sheila
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 06:52:59 PM
Quote from: Taffy on February 03, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
1Cr 2:14 But 1161 the natural 5591 man 444 receiveth 1209 not 3756 the things 3588 of the Spirit 4151 of God
2316: for 1063 they are 2076 foolishness 3472 unto him 846: neither 2532 3756 can 1410 he know 1097 [them], because 3754 they are spiritually 4153 discerned 350 .
1Cr 15:44 It is sown 4687 a natural 5591 body 4983; it is raised 1453 a spiritual 4152 body 4983. There is 2076 a natural 5591 body 4983, and 2532 there is 2076 a spiritual 4152 body 4983.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit 235 that [was] not 3756 first 4412 which is spiritual 4152, but 235 that which is natural 5591; and afterward 1899 that which is spiritual 4152.
Jud 1:19 These 3778 be 1526 they who separate 592 themselves 1438, sensual 5591, having 2192 not 3361 the Spirit 4151.
The natural man is not the sensual\soulish man
spliting hairs and words over NOTHING
Jam 3:15 This 3778 wisdom 4678 descendeth 2076 2718 not 3756 from above 509, but 235 [is] earthly 1919, sensual 5591, devilish 1141.
Taffy, that's my whole point. Adam was not a natural man but a soulish man. That is what the Scriptures tell us.
They are not the same thing.
You wrote:
Tis what I refer to as
Flesh v Spirit
Old man v new Man
Old C V New C
Drakness v Light
Night VDay
esau v Jacob
Cain VAbel\Seth
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Physical Temple V spiritual Temple
and list just goes on T...is there a Better way to learn than Repition?
Good points bro.
Don't forget one more: Soulish V Spiritual :laughing7:
DID SO T..flesh, not sarx..
i forgot the comma bro..for the Natural\flesh\soulish\sensual man is the soulish man..not to be mistaken with the natural animals....
Quote from: Tony N on February 03, 2009, 04:55:24 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 03, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
G5591 psuchikos psoo-khee-kos'
from G5590;
sensitive, i.e. animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is
the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the
lower or bestial nature):--natural, sensual.
First the natural according to how God made us. We are higher and renovated over other things in creation. Soulish is the nature in which we are in the natural. Our spiritual nature is beyond the flesh, beyond what we can demonstrate physically or with our feelings.
Dear Paul,
What does that have to do with:
The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the
last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual,
but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was
out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."
It's not about us but about Adam and Christ.
Adam and Christ are "in" us. Scripture is simply about the Father and his two sons. The first Adam that manifested on earth, fell out of order, the Last Adam gave his life to restore the order in the first Adam back to the Father. It's instantaneous and it's a process. Soulishness = carnality A man's fleshly desires is a man's carnal lusts. Adam was a natural man, led by his soulish mind. Which is to say, his natural reasoning was his compass. But we are called to be led by the spirit . . .broken record . . . but still holds true.
What does "flesh and blood" mean to you?
The word which came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he was making a work on the wheels. 4 And when the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.jer18.1
Can it be any clearer what God is doing?
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 07:42:26 PM
The word which came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he was making a work on the wheels. 4 And when the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.jer18.1
Can it be any clearer what God is doing?
cp
DIFFERENT pots CP, if one look Outwardly ....But Im wid ya...same piece -RE-MADE.... :icon_flower:
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 07:42:26 PM
The word which came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he was making a work on the wheels. 4 And when the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.jer18.1
Can it be any clearer what God is doing?
cp
It is concerning the house of Israel.
Jer 18:6 As this potter am I not able to do to you? O house of Israel, an affirmation of Yahweh. Lo, as clay in the hand of the potter, So [are] you in My hand, O house of Israel."
1st dimension . . .he's making a literal clay vessel
2nd dimension . . .he's making Israel/corporate church
3rd dimension . . .he's making me.
The house of Israel.
The temple of God.
IMO and Scriptures, it seems, I am the temple of God.
So much figurative language in Scripture and, when deciphered, its always like jumping in a cool lake on a very hot day!
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:08:06 PM
The house of Israel.
The temple of God.
IMO and Scriptures, it seems, I am the temple of God.
So much figurative language in Scripture and, when deciphered, its always like jumping in a cool lake on a very hot day!
cp
What does the Potters House have anything to do with Why Does God Choose Just So Many For Salvation?
As a Potter God was shaping the destiny of Israel. As a potter smashes the clay so will God smash Israel and all her inhabitants for all the evil they were doing. But God is responsible because just as the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, so Israel was purposely marred by God's hand.
actually ,all are made for salvation
vessels of wrath fitted for destruction...and vessels of mercy
prepared before hand for glory
sheila,
Do you think it possible that the subject of the potter in Jeremiah and the potter of Romans 9 are about two different events?
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 02:56:03 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:08:06 PM
The house of Israel.
The temple of God.
IMO and Scriptures, it seems, I am the temple of God.
So much figurative language in Scripture and, when deciphered, its always like jumping in a cool lake on a very hot day!
cp
What does the Potters House have anything to do with Why Does God Choose Just So Many For Salvation?
As a Potter God was shaping the destiny of Israel. As a potter smashes the clay so will God smash Israel and all her inhabitants for all the evil they were doing. But God is responsible because just as the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, so Israel was purposely marred by God's hand.
And so was Adam Brother.
cp
they are both related...the old covenant nailed to a stake
vessel of wrath..New Covenant..vessel of mercy.
I think His work multiplies until it fills the universe...all in all
what the law could not make perfect..the mercy and grace and spirit of God can.
sin's law in my flesh[old covenant/imperfect/wrath]
Royal Law of love and mercy[new covenant/perfect/mercy]
truth is truth..all the way up to the heavens
truth, within and without, in the earth as heaven
in us all and through us all..and in Him and through Him
Quote from: claypot on February 04, 2009, 09:11:52 PM
Quote from: Tony N on February 04, 2009, 02:56:03 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 03, 2009, 10:08:06 PM
The house of Israel.
The temple of God.
IMO and Scriptures, it seems, I am the temple of God.
So much figurative language in Scripture and, when deciphered, its always like jumping in a cool lake on a very hot day!
cp
What does the Potters House have anything to do with Why Does God Choose Just So Many For Salvation?
As a Potter God was shaping the destiny of Israel. As a potter smashes the clay so will God smash Israel and all her inhabitants for all the evil they were doing. But God is responsible because just as the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, so Israel was purposely marred by God's hand.
And so was Adam Brother.
cp
I agree.
.. Romans 11;13 I am talking to you gentiles.Inasmuch
as I am the apostle to the gentiles. I make much of my
ministry,in the Hope that I may somehow AROUSE MY OWN
PEOPLE to envy [this is the just so many now] and SAVE some of them.[bring old covenant into new]
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world,
what will their acceptance be,but life from the dead[resurrection?]
you could see the same thing today/Babylon is Babylon
whether 2000 years ago or today...it is what Jesus followers
come out of[old/wrath-New/mercy]
the same falling away,thereof that we were instructed to come out of
get thrown out..or come out of
He has restored ...He has told us..ALL will be saved ...
why just so many now? why so few of us have come out of it now...what about the billions still in Babylon?
because unto you it has been given the Kingdom of Heaven..and to them it is hidden..through the speaking of
parables,,, so that they hear and do not understand
and why..becauseth whomever I desire I hardeneth..and whomever on whom I have mercy,I have mercy
It is His Great Mercy and tenderness unto us that we
have such treasure in our vessels.....
the vessels of Wrath...receive the same judgement .
in their flesh[as ye judge so shall ye be judged]
in every way they try to hurt/ kill the two wittness's they are
hurt/killed]
He who judges without mercy,shall have his judgement
without mercy...
we are the vessels of mercy...we have the spirit of grace and mercy in our vessels...and not the wrath of God
our vessels will also be emptied out..of the mercy that is in it
but their vessels will also be emptied of the wrath in them...
for they pour forth wrath upon one another and consume one another and devour one another
christendom/muslim/jews Just think of the literal Jerusalem at this moment...the warring and wrath being poured out.
[ I think of the earthquake and the city in three parts]
various factions of Abraham's seed...and nation against nation
and kingdom[heaven] against kingdom[darkness]
famines; spiritual [for hearing the Word of God] and literal
why does He choose so few to know him in this earth?
I don't know..He just always has done that...Jesus said
few would find the way...always,it seem He chooses a remnant
Amos 3;12 This is what the Lord says ' As a shepherd
saves from the lion's mouth only two leg bones or a peice of
an ear, so will the Israelites be saved
I think this,too..may be part of the 'especially' of those who
beleive....