Soul Sleep

[MacPherson]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

[Average_Bear]

Good observation. I believe one of the gospels has Jesus saying, "Tell the vision to no one" A vision is different from literal visitation.

[martincisneros]

sleep walking??

Actually time travel, but I'll get into that later and where Scripture indicates it.

[rosered]

 
 Hi , I like being able to see something new   :thumbsup:
I always thought    the transfiguration , was figurative  in that Moses   and Elijah  represented the Law & prophets  
 Peter wanted to build 3 tabernacles , we know that  Jesus Christ is the   House not made with hands [ Spirit ]

 than there was ONLY CHRIST  , I saw this as meaning till Christ be all in all
 so I am not sure if that is literal   people or not ?  it could be I guess
    :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and desires, stays trapped (in the realm of spirit as a "ghost") in whatever it did not overcome through Christ, while still in the body.

The RE- union of soul and spirit is the first resurrection. Soul and spirit were divided in the garden. The greater works He said we would do is this, and the second or "superior" resurrection, ie. the one while still in the body.

Things have been hidden by men not making the living Word personal and individual instruction to be measured out in due season by the Spirit of the living God. What has happened in the churches with it is this; if you have a literal book that has a seal on it, and a crowd sitting there waiting for something to happen, staring up at a literal sky (instead of looking for Him who is Spirit now, ie. hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh), that does not open the seal.

But the One whose book it is that holds it in His hands, He can open the seal and speak from it with understanding being given as He goes. The phenomenal thing is, the very thing He is speaking is also sealed within us, and awakens at His voice, giving us understanding also at the same time, ie. a witness. In all your getting, get understanding.....Blessings....

[Molly]

The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and desires, stays trapped (in the realm of spirit as a "ghost") in whatever it did not overcome through Christ, while still in the body.

The RE- union of soul and spirit is the first resurrection. Soul and spirit were divided in the garden. The greater works He said we would do is this, and the second or "superior" resurrection, ie. the one while still in the body.

Could you expound on this?  Are you saying there are people walking around who do not have spirit?  And that one can die that way?  The greater works is what?  And, the first and second resurrection?  I thought the first resurrection are the kings and priests of God and Christ.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I have to leave for awhile, I will when I return. I will say this; I asked Him what the greater works were, and He told me to bring back in union the soul and the Spirit. That's what actually is happening as we draw closer to Him and we decrease and overcome through Christ in us. This is why many arose when He did; He represented the Spirit, they the souls coming back into union with Christ and which is why the wheat and the tares are raised up together, in principle. Blessings....

[jabcat]

:cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and desires, stays trapped (in the realm of spirit as a "ghost") in whatever it did not overcome through Christ, while still in the body.

The RE- union of soul and spirit is the first resurrection. Soul and spirit were divided in the garden. The greater works He said we would do is this, and the second or "superior" resurrection, ie. the one while still in the body.

Things have been hidden by men not making the living Word personal and individual instruction to be measured out in due season by the Spirit of the living God. What has happened in the churches with it is this; if you have a literal book that has a seal on it, and a crowd sitting there waiting for something to happen, staring up at a literal sky (instead of looking for Him who is Spirit now, ie. hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh), that does not open the seal.

But the One whose book it is that holds it in His hands, He can open the seal and speak from it with understanding being given as He goes. The phenomenal thing is, the very thing He is speaking is also sealed within us, and awakens at His voice, giving us understanding also at the same time, ie. a witness. In all your getting, get understanding.....Blessings....

:goodpost: and hey there, friend!  Welcome back!  God's blessing, James.

[rosered]

:cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who sent it. The soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and desires, stays trapped (in the realm of spirit as a "ghost") in whatever it did not overcome through Christ, while still in the body.

The RE- union of soul and spirit is the first resurrection. Soul and spirit were divided in the garden. The greater works He said we would do is this, and the second or "superior" resurrection, ie. the one while still in the body.

Things have been hidden by men not making the living Word personal and individual instruction to be measured out in due season by the Spirit of the living God. What has happened in the churches with it is this; if you have a literal book that has a seal on it, and a crowd sitting there waiting for something to happen, staring up at a literal sky (instead of looking for Him who is Spirit now, ie. hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh), that does not open the seal.

But the One whose book it is that holds it in His hands, He can open the seal and speak from it with understanding being given as He goes. The phenomenal thing is, the very thing He is speaking is also sealed within us, and awakens at His voice, giving us understanding also at the same time, ie. a witness. In all your getting, get understanding.....Blessings....

  the  better resurrection sis ? the rest we have in Christ /God ? 
i get it thanks !!  :HeartThrob:



Hbr 11:35 Women/ soul  mind /womb  received their dead/spirit ? raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hiya buddy Jabcat! Thanks....glad it ministered to you y'all rosered.......blessings....

[WhiteWings]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

Didn't the witch of Endor disturbe the soulsleep op Samuel?

1Sa 28:15  Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"....

[willieH]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

This was a VISIONAL thing presented by GOD... not a personal appearance by Moses & Elijah...

JESUS plainly noted that ...NO MAN... hath ASCENDED up into Heaven... except HIMSELF.  (John 3:13)

"No man" includes EVERYONE... Moses & Elijah as well...

The "go to heaven, go to hell" teachings are MAN invented... and are NOT Scripturally based.

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

This was a VISIONAL thing presented by GOD... not a personal appearance by Moses & Elijah...

JESUS plainly noted that ...NO MAN... hath ASCENDED up into Heaven... except HIMSELF.  (John 3:13)

"No man" includes EVERYONE... Moses & Elijah as well...

The "go to heaven, go to hell" teachings are MAN invented... and are NOT Scripturally based.

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

yo Wille an ANGEL of HIM above.

No man has ascended Bro AMEN..but Have you ever contemplated that the Angels ARE FROM ABOVE and May have ascended to the HEAVENS....That is after a Spiritual Truth?

Love those Flowers Matey :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

[rosered]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

Didn't the witch of Endor disturbe the soulsleep op Samuel?

1Sa 28:15  Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"....

That is a great question  WW
   You always bring up those questions  that make me  think

 and I  think soulsleep   is a coined  phrase  lol :2c:

   soul/life  is the seat of emotions  ,  if you feel nothing   that means   like dead  inside to me   some verbs to describe  it ,   hollow, empty    dark  , lonely , vast  etc .
 
    Saul perceived it was Samuel
 Samuel  was a prophet  from his mothers womb  
 and   none of the prohets are dead  in the spiritual sense  only in the literal sense

 Saul was not seeking God for answers  that was his error
 he was seeking a prophet  / spokesman, speaker

same to me as worshipping angels/messengers   which is forbidden

 I seriously doubt this  make any difference to you one way or the other
 for a  solid answer  but I know that the souls of them who died in the Lord are  under the altar  and still speak  to this  day


 I see Samuel  as one of them  with a voice still .under the altar , that is under heaven  underneath

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
 


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

  what do you think ?
 can this be true ?
  :HeartThrob:  

[Zeek]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

This was a VISIONAL thing presented by GOD... not a personal appearance by Moses & Elijah...

JESUS plainly noted that ...NO MAN... hath ASCENDED up into Heaven... except HIMSELF.  (John 3:13)

"No man" includes EVERYONE... Moses & Elijah as well...

The "go to heaven, go to hell" teachings are MAN invented... and are NOT Scripturally based.

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

yo Wille an ANGEL of HIM above.

No man has ascended Bro AMEN..but Have you ever contemplated that the Angels ARE FROM ABOVE and May have ascended to the HEAVENS....That is after a Spiritual Truth?

Love those Flowers Matey :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

YEAH T, I see what u mean. 

Depends on one's view of what an "angel" is.

:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Walk in the spirit . . . What if when he says no man can ascend, it's speaking about one who identifies himself with natural reasoning.  No carnal man, no physical being, no person who does not have the capability of seeing spiritual kingdoms can enter into those kingdoms.  

Anyone  ever ask "how" Peter knew they were Moses and Elijah?  Did he carry a picture of them in his wallet?

Elisha's armor bearer saw angelic warriers surrounding their tent . . was that real or imaginary?  I see these things as places where God pulled back the veils of the natural realm and let physical men see into the spiritual things.  They saw Jesus trasform into a glorified state . . .Jesus was with them at the beginning . . .to say this was just a vision, would then imply that Jesus, in the flesh . ..just sorta waited as the boyz went into their trances.  I don't think so.  I think Jesus was there in the flesh, transitioned into his spiritual state before their physical eyes and there was a spiritual recognition that took place as they knew it was Moses and Elijah.

My mind wants to justify that it was a vision because to say it's anything else is beyond comprehension . . .which is just what Jesus is . .he's beyond all comprehension.

Let's push the envelope a bit  what was the purpose for this event?  Was Jesus wanting to show off his physche?  Flexing his dimensional muscles?  What was the significance of the law and the prophets manifesting with Christ?  What puzzle is this piece to fit into?

I believe it's the puzzle of the tabernacle . .and the piece Jesus was revealing was the contents within the ark . . .the stone tablets/law/Moses. . .Aaron's dead-but-budding stick/prophets/Elijah and the jar of manna/bread/Christ.

In other words . . .this was the FIRST time that all three elements within the ark were brought together in one place since Israel first lost the ark when Eli and his sons were killed and Samuel's ministry as "the" prophet and judge of Israel began.  When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law . . .he wasn't kidding.  Israel had lost the manna and Aarons rod .  .they'd lost their bread and the Spirit that led them . .all they had for hundreds and even thousands of years was the law.  

Through the transfiguration that day to only 3 of the 12, only those who were closest to Jesus were given the ability to 1, see him in his true glorified state, and b (?) he revealed he was healing the heart of God . . .these articles were "in" the ark that was "in" the holy of holies.  And it comes in threes . . .everything is connected to resurrection.  Jesus resurrected God's heart and will by reconciling us back to him.

on the other hand . . .I could just be making all this stuff up. :laughing7:

[Zeek]

Eph 2:6  For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms--all because we are one with Christ Jesus.

[Nathan]

Eph 2:6  For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms--all because we are one with Christ Jesus.

These souls don't sound like their seated . . .they sound like they're bound . . .I have an idea . . . but I want to see what others think first.

[Taffy]

If our soul's sleep after we physically die until the Day Of Judgment, as some assert, then how did Moses and Elijah appear talking with Jesus during the Transfiguration?

This was a VISIONAL thing presented by GOD... not a personal appearance by Moses & Elijah...

JESUS plainly noted that ...NO MAN... hath ASCENDED up into Heaven... except HIMSELF.  (John 3:13)

"No man" includes EVERYONE... Moses & Elijah as well...

The "go to heaven, go to hell" teachings are MAN invented... and are NOT Scripturally based.

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower:  willieH   :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

yo Wille an ANGEL of HIM above.

No man has ascended Bro AMEN..but Have you ever contemplated that the Angels ARE FROM ABOVE and May have ascended to the HEAVENS....That is after a Spiritual Truth?

Love those Flowers Matey :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

YEAH T, I see what u mean. 

Depends on one's view of what an "angel" is.

:icon_flower:

Yes Z....NOTthe Mortal man, But He whos PUT on CHRIST, :icon_flower:

and quit it with me Flowers,,theys Mine :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Anyone  ever ask "how" Peter knew they were Moses and Elijah?  Did he carry a picture of them in his wallet?

ya mean He didnt, Shucks :icon_flower:

[Zeek]

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Taffy]

Eph 2:6  For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms--all because we are one with Christ Jesus.

:icon_flower:

But to be SEATED(with HIM -Nat can have that one)sounds SOMETHING like the Mercy seat to me. :icon_flower:

first the HEAVENS(our minds) nead purification dont YA think Bro :cloud9:

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke

[Nathan]

Okay, here's a thought . . .sigh . . .didn't see this really until now . . .not sure how it's going to even come out here either.

Okay, we all agree that God is a consuming fire . . .which then leads us to see that God is the "lake" of fire . .where those who's names (identities) are not in the book (tree) of life.  So . .. when these guys are cast into the place of God, it's clear, they're not their for their enjoyment, and even they are there against their will.  Which is to say . . .they want to be somewhere else.

And seeing these souls are being held, apparently against their will also, beneath the altar and because they're still looking for vengence and not peace, there is still some soulish nature manifesting in them yes?  Then I'm thinking that this place beneath the altar is actually the same as the lake of fire . . .it's "in" God's presence, they "don't" want to be there, they're not being let out . . .and they're still looking for vengence, which is a carnal desire . . . this kind of sheds a whole new light on things for me.

[Taffy]

Okay, here's a thought . . .sigh . . .didn't see this really until now . . .not sure how it's going to even come out here either.

Okay, we all agree that God is a consuming fire . . .which then leads us to see that God is the "lake" of fire . .where those who's names (identities) are not in the book (tree) of life.  So . .. when these guys are cast into the place of God, it's clear, they're not their for their enjoyment, and even they are there against their will.  Which is to say . . .they want to be somewhere else.

And seeing these souls are being held, apparently against their will also, beneath the altar and because they're still looking for vengence and not peace, there is still some soulish nature manifesting in them yes?  Then I'm thinking that this place beneath the altar is actually the same as the lake of fire . . .it's "in" God's presence, they "don't" want to be there, they're not being let out . . .and they're still looking for vengence, which is a carnal desire . . . this kind of sheds a whole new light on things for me.

agh

Those souls...for a mo I was wondering what you were talking off..Yes BUD Those are BOUND waiting for release

Bound in their SINS

something along these lines maybe

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[willieH]

willieH: Yo!  :mshock:

When "SOUL SLEEP" is discussed (which is an Unbiblical term), ...we shall inevitably end up with the ILLOGICAL notation that even though those who believe and which, "go to heaven" (at their death),

They are, for some supposed reason (or as I see it, unreason) RE-INSERTED, from Heaven, into their "resurrected" bodies at the "RESURRECTION"... How can it be called a "resurrection", when they are already ALIVE in Heaven?

The Scripture SAYS: 

(1)  ...WE which are ALIVE and remain, shall not PREVENT them which ARE ASLEEP... (1 Thess 4:16)  Are, ASLEEP?   Did these somehow "doze off" somewhere "in Heaven"?

(2) ...the DEAD in CHRIST shall RISE FIRST -- THEN ...(THEN?) -- WE who are ALIVE and remain (ALIVE? aren't the "Heaven dwellers", ...ALIVE too?) (1 Thess 4:16-17)

How can there be "DEAD" ...in CHRIST if in fact, they ARE in Heaven?   :omg:

Too much traditional, "him-haw" here...  :thumbdown:

If one IS ALIVE with CHRIST in "heaven", ...how can he/she  be noted as, ...DEAD?  :wacko2:

IMO, it is the RELIGIOUS whim of men to percieve themselves to "go to Heaven" at their physical death... and also in my observation (which is potentially flawed), this is NOT what the Bible says about our death...

GOD said in the beginning:  ...DUST, thou art, and unto DUST (not Heaven) shalt thou RETURN... (Gen 3:19)

Which tells me, that we ARE of the dirt [clay]... and shall return to dirt [clay], awaiting His call to RISE FROM IT...

Though CHRIST did not return to DIRT as do we, He DID RISE from the DEATH of the Tomb... thereby OVERCOMING that DEATH.

He was DEAD in the tomb (not ALIVE, in HEAVEN)... and ROSE from the DEATH of that TOMB...

He didn't race back to the tomb from Heaven, so He could RISE from the death of that tomb... :mnah:

believe what you will, bro's :king: & so's  :icon_queen: ...  :HeartThrob:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7: