UR believers, how long did it take...

[sscoulter]

Hello friends,

As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.

Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?


Peace.


S

[Doc]

To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.

[sscoulter]

To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.

Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.


How has it changed your life?

Thanks again,


S

[chuckt]

Hello friends,

As a UR believer, how long did it take you to accept the doctrine after first being introduced to the idea? I am still in the very early stages of accepting this doctrine, and what a wonderful thing it would be if true! I am still hoping for it to be true, and working through all my doubts and the scriptures that seem to speak against it.

Just wondering how long it took for you to accept it and believe it fully, and how has it changed your life?


Peace.


S

greetings,

most of all it started changing  the way i view God and my ability to move on to truley loving  my enemies.

thats sums it up for me, one word....LOVE.....and how i now view others and the ability to quickly forgive others.

one other thing is the disposition it gives us when approaching scripture.


God bless
chuckt

[Paul Hazelwood]

About 3 years

I was introduced to it and rejected it pretty much sight unseen and did not contemplate it much for about a year.  The next year I was drawn back to the idea and went on the internet in various forums where people were defending it and I tried to prove them wrong.


Last year was the third year where I studied the areas where my arguments did not hold up and could not deny that biblical support without interjecting ideas that are not clear in scripture but are implied more by inuendo than intepretation.

One of the last attempts  I made was that I tried to taint the context of ALL to the passage  (as all die in adam) to say that enoch and elijah did not die based on what I had been taught.   It was not till I studied these two people myself in scripture that I realized just how deceptive the teaching typically is.

The latter part of last year was when I have come to believe that it is unlikely that I will ever go back to my old ways of thinking.

This year I intend to just see how many people I can introduce to the concept.  Not try to convince, just to say, hey, God really does love everyone that much and here is why I believe that.

[sscoulter]

greetings,

most of all it started changing  the way i view God and my ability to move on to truley loving  my enemies.

thats sums it up for me, one word....LOVE.....and how i now view others and the ability to quickly forgive others.

one other thing is the disposition it gives us when approaching scripture.


God bless
chuckt

Thanks Chuck, God bless you my friend.


S

[sscoulter]

About 3 years

I was introduced to it and rejected it pretty much sight unseen and did not contemplate it much for about a year.  The next year I was drawn back to the idea and went on the internet in various forums where people were defending it and I tried to prove them wrong.


Last year was the third year where I studied the areas where my arguments did not hold up and could not deny that biblical support without interjecting ideas that are not clear in scripture but are implied more by inuendo than intepretation.

One of the last attempts  I made was that I tried to taint the context of ALL to the passage  (as all die in adam) to say that enoch and elijah did not die based on what I had been taught.   It was not till I studied these two people myself in scripture that I realized just how deceptive the teaching typically is.

The latter part of last year was when I have come to believe that it is unlikely that I will ever go back to my old ways of thinking.

This year I intend to just see how many people I can introduce to the concept.  Not try to convince, just to say, hey, God really does love everyone that much and here is why I believe that.

Thank you, God bless.


S

[legoman]

I'm not sure exactly how long, but I probably accepted quicker than most.  About 1 year ago I read a series of web articles on different sites (including this one) about how aion/aionios does not mean eternity.  I started reading and reading and studying.  I think I accepted the initial premise that God will save all within a week or two.  But there was still alot of unresolved questions. 

Now after 1 year of intensive studying, most of my fundamental questions have been answered.  I pretty much accept UR fully now and cannot really see going back to my old beliefs.  Of course there are still questions, like what the heck are we supposed to be doing now?!

However what I can't recall is that I may have heard the UR message before (without the details) earlier in my life.  I can sort of remember hearing about people who believed that everyone would be saved and God couldn't send people to Hell.  I wished it to be true - when I was very young I often wondered how hell made sense (I stopped thinking about it later in my 20s).  I of course knew they were wrong because the bible clearly said there was an eternal hell.  If only I had known back then what "eternal" was really translated from.  I guess I wasn't ready to learn the truth at that point.

Learning the real meaning of  aion/aionios did it for me.  Of course I had to check all the possible uses of aion/aionios in the bible and resolve some apparent contradictions.  But once I had resolved those contradictions for myself, there was no turning back.

It is still tough sometimes though.  Its like a massive mountain of peer pressure... everyone believes in hell, what if I am wrong?  I read some ETers articles and it is scary stuff.  They use fear as a weapon.  In some moments I do a double take.  But then I go back to the scriptures and find comfort in God's word.  Its always nice when I see some scripture I didn't notice before and get new meaning from it:

Matthew 10:31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

And this tiny parable is great:
Luke 13:20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

The Kingdom will be worked and worked until it is worked into everyone!  We are part of that tiny yeast that is mixing and mixing into the whole dough.  Its going to take some time, but when done, it will be some pretty nice bread.  :bigGrin:

Legoman

[Doc]

To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.

Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.


How has it changed your life?

Thanks again,


S

My experience has been very similar to Chuckt's. Some of the things that never made sense to me before in scripture (under the dominant paradigm) now make perfect sense. I understand God's character (his Love and justice, and that the two can't be separated) and His plan much more clearly now. I certainly rejected the idea at first, even though I "stumbled" across it and didn't have anyone directly trying to convince me. But gradually the Holy Spirit got through.

Legoman's right though, it aint easy being UR. It seems like nearly everyone in the church is against you on it. A lot of times you feel like the "lone ranger".

Pretty much any question or conceivable "but what about" argument you can come up with can be answered by reading through this:  http://books.google.com/books?id=ol2R_856G0IC&dq=Elhanan+Winchester%27s+The+Universal+Restoration&pg=PP1&ots=fQLU7G3xl_&sig=EK9cJrUItIsCqjd6riQVHdaJ2s4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR28,M1

[sscoulter]

To fully accept it took me about 2 years of reading and study, after the Holy Spirit dropped it rather unexpectedly in my lap one day.

Thanks for the reply, I guess I have only even been aware of it for a few weeks. I came accross it reading some of Thomas Thayer's work, about hell.


How has it changed your life?

Thanks again,


S

My experience has been very similar to Chuckt's. Some of the things that never made sense to me before in scripture (under the dominant paradigm) now make perfect sense. I understand God's character (his Love and justice, and that the two can't be separated) and His plan much more clearly now. I certainly rejected the idea at first, even though I "stumbled" across it and didn't have anyone directly trying to convince me. But gradually the Holy Spirit got through.

Legoman's right though, it aint easy being UR. It seems like nearly everyone in the church is against you on it. A lot of times you feel like the "lone ranger".

Pretty much any question or conceivable "but what about" argument you can come up with can be answered by reading through this:  http://books.google.com/books?id=ol2R_856G0IC&dq=Elhanan+Winchester%27s+The+Universal+Restoration&pg=PP1&ots=fQLU7G3xl_&sig=EK9cJrUItIsCqjd6riQVHdaJ2s4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR28,M1

Thanks again, and thanks for the link. I have been reading Ballou, Jukes and Thayer recently. Very interesting, and very convincing.

I see already how fear has been used by religion, both to "convert" the lost and also to keep them "in" church. It seems that if you take away hell, you take away their perception that they are "right" with God and the world falling head long into hell. You would think that they would be happy to hear that God intends to save every last lost soul, but it seems it brings out the Pharisee in most church going people. It seems to expose their religion, so no wonder they don't like it.

God bless,


S

[Doc]

I personally have never read Ballou, but I've Found Thayer and Jukes very helpful, along with some of the more modern authors; like Talbott, MacDonald, and others. I've Heard Jan Bonda's book is quite good as well, though I've not had the opportunity to pick it up yet. One website I also really like , is this one: http://www.savior-of-all.com/

This guy is really sharp, IMO. I have e-mailed him before, and he seems happy to answer questions.

Enjoy your journey! I've felt very much like I was in "The Matrix" at some points, being offered the choice between the red and blue pill. As hard as it is at times, I'm glad I took the right one...  :2thumbs:

[sscoulter]

I'm not sure exactly how long, but I probably accepted quicker than most.  About 1 year ago I read a series of web articles on different sites (including this one) about how aion/aionios does not mean eternity.  I started reading and reading and studying.  I think I accepted the initial premise that God will save all within a week or two.  But there was still alot of unresolved questions. 

Now after 1 year of intensive studying, most of my fundamental questions have been answered.  I pretty much accept UR fully now and cannot really see going back to my old beliefs.  Of course there are still questions, like what the heck are we supposed to be doing now?!

However what I can't recall is that I may have heard the UR message before (without the details) earlier in my life.  I can sort of remember hearing about people who believed that everyone would be saved and God couldn't send people to Hell.  I wished it to be true - when I was very young I often wondered how hell made sense (I stopped thinking about it later in my 20s).  I of course knew they were wrong because the bible clearly said there was an eternal hell.  If only I had known back then what "eternal" was really translated from.  I guess I wasn't ready to learn the truth at that point.

Learning the real meaning of  aion/aionios did it for me.  Of course I had to check all the possible uses of aion/aionios in the bible and resolve some apparent contradictions.  But once I had resolved those contradictions for myself, there was no turning back.

It is still tough sometimes though.  Its like a massive mountain of peer pressure... everyone believes in hell, what if I am wrong?  I read some ETers articles and it is scary stuff.  They use fear as a weapon.  In some moments I do a double take.  But then I go back to the scriptures and find comfort in God's word.  Its always nice when I see some scripture I didn't notice before and get new meaning from it:

Matthew 10:31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

And this tiny parable is great:
Luke 13:20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount[a] of flour until it worked all through the dough."

The Kingdom will be worked and worked until it is worked into everyone!  We are part of that tiny yeast that is mixing and mixing into the whole dough.  Its going to take some time, but when done, it will be some pretty nice bread.  :bigGrin:

Legoman

Thank you, and God bless you.


S

[Nathan]

I didn't know that's what I was until after I came to this site.  I didn't come by way of literal proof . . .but obviously that works as well.  But I came by way of spiritual pattern.  In studying the book of revelation  (nontradition of course) and found that hell was cast in the lake of fire . .which told me it was temporary . .not a big deal . .but then when I realized that the lake of fire is patterned after the laver where the priests were cleansed in their labor of sacrificing . . .I saw that it's not eternal torment either . .and it still never really manifested loudly until I read possibly about the first 2 threads on this forum and realized even though the dimension is different, the outcome is the same . . . and it really helped me fill in a lot of blanks.

And these guys are right, it will ruin you for ever going back to traditional thinking if you let it.

Blessings.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.

I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL?  :laughing7:  Blessings....

[Molly]

:cloud9: I guess because I was never church indoctrinated to begin with, I didn't have the angst over it so many seem to. He dropped it into my lap one day about 7 years ago, thru a revelation about the tabernacle, and that was kinda it for me, no other "proof" needed.

I was shown within 6 months of turning to Him that there was no rapture, and spent my remaining church-visiting time (which was about a year and a half) after that, dodging religious bullets over it, so by the time of the revelation of UR, a decade and half later, what is one more thing to dodge bullets over, LOL?  :laughing7:  Blessings....

Can you share that in any more detail?  About the tabernacle..

[CHB]

One website I also really like , is this one: http://www.savior-of-all.com/

This guy is really sharp, IMO. I have e-mailed him before, and he seems happy to answer questions.

I have always enjoyed Ken's articles. I wonder how he is doing? He use to have a forum that I posted on a lot.

CHB

[sscoulter]

Thanks to all for your thoughts, I would love to hear how this belief has changed your life. I wonder how it has changed you personally, if anyone cares to answer.


Peace.


S

[martincisneros]

A friend of mine got me to read Charles Slagle's book "Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ" in 1999 and I honestly didn't see any conflict between that book and what I previously understood/taught.  I guess I was sorta ditzy when I read it, or edified in my spirit but going through too much for my mind to become aware of the problem and core issues.  My friend sorta kept working on me throughout 2000 and in February of 2001 he convinced me to buy a copy of Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God" which is a UR commentary on Romans.  Within weeks I was a convinced Universalist.  I even remember the particular line that converted me where he said things to the effect of "if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"  I broke with tears 'cause that line was perfectly set up by all of the pages leading up to it. 

Read everything that I could get my hands on after that by Thomas Talbott, Andrew Jukes, Thomas Allin, A.E. Knoch, Jacob Jocz, Charles Chauncy, Joseph Huntington, Thomas Whittemore, and others.  Was only fully [mentally] persuaded by Elhanan Winchester's Dialogues in '03.  So, even after I started teaching it almost immediately after my first revelation of it in '01, I still had the baggage of hundreds of verses that I've not found anyone else deal with except for Elhanan Winchester in "The Universal Restoration" also sometimes known as "Dialogues on the Universal Restoration."

[Nathan]

"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"

Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Thanks to all for your thoughts, I would love to hear how this belief has changed your life. I wonder how it has changed you personally, if anyone cares to answer.
Peace.
S

For me UR changed me apart from the fear of hell.  I was raised in a fire and brimstone environment but never in my life have I feared hell.  I've never really even feared Hell for others.

The issue for me is that the environment that fire and brimstone teaching thrives in has to do with what we are worth and how pleasing we are to God.   Oddly enough, even thinking God hates me was never an issue, I also never really thought that God was my friend either.  To me he was this thing that people used to hurt my feelings.

Basically the enviroments I have been subjected to were people who would accept a person only when that person "acted" good enough "for them".

I am the type of person that rarely if ever meets anyone expectations and most of my life I am who I am, and I do not fit the church or religious mould.   The most horrible emotional period in my life was when I tried to make myself "fit".   I self destructed emotionally and left a pretty wide path of destruction with people and come to find out , did so in the last church I left.

As bad as I feel towards those I hurt, it only happened because I tried it their way, tried to conform, tried to be good enough to meet "their" expectations.  since they taught that their expectations really wasn't theirs, but Gods.

Universal reconciliation has done more for me than to see the view of Hell I think I have always "known" it has allowed me to see that there is no time in my life where I had to "fit" somewhere in order for God to love me.  There is nothing I have ever done, or will do, that could cause God to "give up" on me.   I also know that my behavior and actions are not necessarily condoned by God just because of that.  I have experienced tremendous pain and consequences for my actions and God did not spare me from them, so he is not going to give me an excuse to just "live however I want".

But, I no longer see my self as continually unworthy.  I see myself as the image of my King and I see everyone else that way as well.   It has allowed me to see a glimpse of the love I am supposed to have, even for those I do not measure up to in their eyes.  It has released my hatred for them and is allowing me to grow in the spirit rather than be in bondage to the letter of the law.

It has allowed me to understand friendship in the spirit with Jesus and my God.  That has then shown me an aspect of human friendship I never thought possible.

[Cardinal]

"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"

Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:

:cloud9: Yes, Martin, that was powerful. Thanks for posting it.

And Molly; I don't have much time for the next 2 days, but I'll get to it. Blessings..

[onlytruth]

i was reading preston ebys stuff and i was really connecting with it.so i began telling a few others of the hope in revelations not the doom and gloom.a close friend mentioned that eby doesn't beleive in a hell so how could you be connecting with his studies.well my head started to spin, i had to get to the bottom of this quick
so i started researching the next day after 3 days,i came to the conclusion i'm going to trust in a everloving God.after that everything started to open up for me.
i loved to share-and this was the best news(at least i thought it was for everyone).i was on the fringe already, but this put me over according to my church friends
i went through a tough time of rejection to the point i had nobody to pray with me.so i found gary and phoned him.
so i find it now very important that we build each other up.so continue the good fight,God has an amazing plan laid up for each one of us!!!
blessings in the kingdom :icon_king:

[Jerm]

A few months after the start of my Freshman year in college, I was reading an article about a seminar Rob Bell did and in it, he asked several questions which challenged some of the common conceptions regarding salvation.  This got me asking questions about it myself and one of the subjects I came across was universalism.  I had heard of it before but never really studied it indepth.  I first began to read articles on Eric Stetson's site and it really challenged what I had always been taught concerning salvation and hell.  The more I studied and prayed, the more convinced I became the universalism was true.  I kind of straddled the fence for about two more years, saying that I hoped UR was true, and thought there was good evidence for it, but I wasn't quite ready to say for 100% sure that I believed it. Then, in my Junior year of school, I took a class on Romans, which was taught from the UR perspective (The professor is an open universalist.)  After studying in that class and doing more studying and praying on my own, I can now say that I am a convinced universalist and it has completely changed my entire perspective on everything I thought I knew about God. 

[jabcat]

"if a righteous man conquers death and is appointed as Lord over the dead, then what else can this mean for the dead than their salvation?"

Wow Martin, that is really powerful. :icon_king:

:cloud9: Yes, Martin, that was powerful. Thanks for posting it.

Really nice  :thumbsup:

[ScarletWren]

I am not really sure I can pinpoint how long it took me.  I was in a 'traditional' church for years.  Then in my late 40's I started really questioning some things they taught, so much it became a burden to find something I could convince myself they were correct.  One was baptism, I knew the verses they used but some things did not make sense.  It seemed the New Testament completely did away with the works of the Old Testament, and yet here we were, demanding other works for salvation. II have nothing against baptism, I recommend it to anyone but don't feel it is something one MUST do)   It took me a long time actually and in the process I became a 'once-saved, always saved' believer and the next thing I knew I was pretty much of a Calvinist because of the verses which said that God did the choosing.   It never entered my head to search out universalism.  I did a lot of studying on sites that went more into depth on Bible passages and spiritual meanings of the historical characters.  It became my passion.  Then I found myself being more and more uncomfortable that God would only choose certain individuals for salvation and let the rest go to eternal misery.  It had not really bothered me a lot before because I thought people chose not to believe in God/Jesus, tho I often mourned over those who were born into countires/situations where the God of the Bible was prohibited and little  to no opportunity was available for those inidviduals to be exposed to God.  I cried out to the Lord one day to reveal His character to me, no matter where it led me in my convictions.  Then I recalled that some people believed that everyone would be saved and I did a search on the internet.  Before that time, I refused to give that doctrine the time of day.  The very first article I came across and I was in tears because I knew it was true.  THEN I started searching for more articles that would explain the passages that seemed to teach hell was eternal.  So. in one way, I converted instantly to universalism, in other ways, God was preparing my heart for the concept for years before that.  After that, I searched for logical explanations to help present my case to relatives and friends.  Of course nothing I could present would convince my sisters I wasn't crazy so I knew that no one else would be swayed until/unless God opened their hearts to it.  So I just study for my own edification.

It has changed my life in that I no longer go to a church.  I lost virtually my only social life back in Ohio, and was cut off from what little social life I had once I revealed my change in belief, tho that really started when I first came to my belief in OSAS.  My sisters now regard me as some kind of misguided freak.  On the upside, I am much more content in my relationship with the Father, not so worried about my works (not that I don't feel we should be doing good things but I know that God puts the desire in our hearts, we can't guilt ourselves into doing good).  I don't mourn and ache for people that I once thought were going to spend an eternity in some kind of misery.  So all in all it has been a very positive change.