They Know Greek Too

[Taffy]

yup :icon_flower:

yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes.  :thumbsup:

do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the  WISDOM WHICH is  also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.

If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:

Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Taffy, Interesting you quoted James 3:15. In the Concordant Literal it is:
Jam 3:15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "

Also, the old man is dead as you say. Just like "let those dead [to God] bury the [literal] dead." The new man lives [to God] as if alive from the dead. Those who like like a new man will live as if they really are resurrected from the dead as a life of the fruit of the spirit.

Tony the whole reason I quoted James , Bolded and underlined  the WORD  sensual is because I knew it was the same WORD you QUOTED on Bro, Then shared some from there, seems Fire has mentioned some on it too :icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I acknowledge that spiritual discernment is not some supernatural ethereal gift from the heavens to understand a mystery called 'the Spirit', but is obvious, reasonable and understandable because it is love and works done out of love.

One of the greater understandings I gained from my own life was to apply love to something first.  So I do not disagree in concept here.

Heres my perspective,  I do think spiritual discernment is given by God when he sees fit, it is not something that we just learn how to do or can teach how to do.

The problem is that this phrase "spiritual discernment" is what is used as a weapon by people to promote their superiority.  It is very subtle in some cases, or in some cases it is blatent in arguments where a Christians nonsense is confronted so then being unable to answer the confrontation reasonably they just put out that phrase as if they have such greater knowledge than the other person and it becomes a put down. Very Very subtle disguise.  

I am not accusing anyone, directly or indirectly here, its just how it is because as much as we wish to have that spiritual enlightenment, it can be a euphoric feeling to think we have been given special revelation.  We can all fall prey to that feeling.

When I think I have some spiritual revelation I have found I must be very careful, I do not want to put anyone down or cause them to feel bad because that has not happened to them.  I do though know that it is not about what we do in order to invoke this discernment, it is not of us.   I know that everyone will get that discernment at some point or another and that is what I want to tell people the most about.

There are things that I think have been spiritual and later realized I was the one decieved.  

[Nathan]

Yikes, Yunni, you may get blasted for that one .  .

At any rate, I would like to clarify just a bit and say that I do believe the mind does play a huge role.  But there's an order to it.  Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend spiritual things on it's own merit, my view is that the mind of me needs to be put in captivity while my spirit can receive truth from God's spirit . .and then, "that" truth get's planted into the womb of my mind and life begins to take form from there.

The mind does play a role, just not at the conception of when truth is introduced . . .

[jabcat]

Agreed Taf...I was just thinking again about us being careful how we post, remembering that things are "in my opinion, as I understand it, I think, that's how I see it, etc."...and unless it's blatantly anti-scriptural, and/or including getting into areas that Gary has said are no-no's, IMO, state our opinion, reason and discuss a little, and move on...we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God....  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Well sis, as I said, we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God....I understand what you're saying...I struggle with similar things...knowing when to shut up, curbing a bad attitude, on and on....God's growing us, and sometimes it hurts...but it's all for the best.  God's blessing, James.

[Tony N]

Taffy, I can see you are a moderator. TonyN who has publically already admitted he only makes replies to start a fight.

Did I admit that?

I believe it is disrespectful to the spirit of Christ to purposely start fights with anyone.

Anyway, in keeping with the purpose of this thread . . .

The two professors, one believes in ET and the other UR. Both know Greek.
One said they may know Greek but one may know more than the other.
Another stated it may have to do with maturity.
Another stated it has to do with what God gives a person.
Another stated that it was God who conceals a matter.
Another stated that it is God Who puts obscurity in man's hearts.

What do you think?

[jabcat]

They're right.

[Nathan]

uh . . . yup :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Hi YY

If ya wish, Take what you Posted ,which  Ive now deleted Up with Tony privately

Your post too Tony has been deleted

Please spare me any pms . :icon_flower:

[YoungYuni]

Agreed Taf...I was just thinking again about us being careful how we post, remembering that things are "in my opinion, as I understand it, I think, that's how I see it, etc."...and unless it's blatantly anti-scriptural, and/or including getting into areas that Gary has said are no-no's, IMO, state our opinion, reason and discuss a little, and move on...we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God....  :thumbsup:

Your right I agree Jabacat, I appologize for any offenses I might have caused and for taking the conversation further then it needed to go, or even saying anything at all ...working on not caring as much and self control in regards to entering into certain discussions, I know better and still do it thanks for your understanding and patience with us  :grin:

Hiya Fireinfolding,

There were some misunderstandings, as I read through our further conversation.

There were too many points with their own individual cognitive understandings all bundled up too quickly on both our parts.  

However, I apologize to you, since there was a obvious misunderstanding in the beginning of our conversation.

The value of knowledge, fact, results in understanding. 

Therefore there is no secrets concerning the Gospel that God has not already made plain to all mankind to see.

The fact is, there are secrets between you and God, and if you want to call that mystical Christianity, then I accept that definition for that relationship.

If you can take time to understand, we have lived in an apostate Christianity which has denied us the truth that so easily comes by our senses to question their tactics and teaching.

We were taught that if we jaywalked and died, we would go to Hell because we broke the rules.

Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning God's mercy and grace.

We were told that Hell was infinite and deep in the heart of a molten metal core.

Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning God's character.

We were taught that if we did not have 100% covering with water that our baptism was not valid, and even that water baptism was essential to our salvation.

Despite what logic and reason dictates, we are saved by the baptism of His Son.

We are told every day in the apostate Church that logic and reason is of the carnal mind which is not of God.

Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning the difference between the mind of a man focused on self, and the mind of a man focused on the things above.

The truth is what sets a person free and the truth is logical and reasonable.

The knowledge of God and Jesus Christ empowers us to be what we are supposed to be and know what we are supposed to know.

If for any reason I offended you by my logic and reasoning, understand why I will not back down from logic and reason.

It is the thing that has fought against the corrupt church has been logic and reasoning which has it's mind set upon heavenly things: The Spiritual Minded.

I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.

The consequences of holding to archaic traditions of mystic was purposely done to keep the people in submission and fear, and not because that is the reality.

As I said though, the fact is, there are secrets between you and God, and if you want to call that mystical Christianity, then I accept that definition for that relationship.

Hope all is well with you.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

[Molly]

The truth is what sets a person free and the truth is logical and reasonable.

The knowledge of God and Jesus Christ empowers us to be what we are supposed to be and know what we are supposed to know.

If for any reason I offended you by my logic and reasoning, understand why I will not back down from logic and reason.

It is the thing that has fought against the corrupt church has been logic and reasoning which has it's mind set upon heavenly things: The Spiritual Minded.

I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.

The consequences of holding to archaic traditions of mystic was purposely done to keep the people in submission and fear, and not because that is the reality.

Isn't he Wonderful?  Ask...Seek...Knock.. and he will lead us into all truth.   :thumbsup:

[Tony N]

Im out its not worth it  :grin:

Oh by the way Tony I thought it was YY who first brought up the soulish thing in relation to the natural man, and you then following to confirm it, either way I agreed but I wasnt paying attention to who I was quoting on that  :grin: thats why I posted twice on it, apologies on that one for mistaking between the two. G caught it before I did (thanks G)  :HeartThrob:

Hi FF I wasn't trying to correct either you or YY. I was just making a statement as to how I saw something about the natural man vs. the soulish man.
Sorry if anyone took me wrong.

[Cardinal]

That verse in Ecclesiastes you mentioned Tony carries that same concrete thought of eyes led to water, speaking of the horizon. When you look at the horizon those things seen there are indeed obscure. You cannot make out any details. Thanks for bringing out that verse. I have translated this verse this way:

He has also set the-horizon in their inner-guides, yet so that man can't find out the work that the Strongest-Yoked-Guide has done from the beginning even to the end. Ecc 3:11  Ron

:cloud9: THANK YOU so much for this, you have no idea what a blessing this was.  :thumbsup:  Blessings...

[Cardinal]

The pharisee and teachers of the Law were mystical and gnostic in their approach. They were not true purveyors of facts; nor did they have any desire to seek the Truth because it would strip them of all power.

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

The pharisee and the teachers of the Law did not want to believe, and their hearts were hardened because of their unbelief. They did not want to believe the facts, and made up stories of their own to follow.

:cloud9: I don't know what you are basing your information on, but here is what they have always used as a principle for studying scripture. It is well known in Jewish circles, and this particular quote is from a Messianic rabbi.

"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning, REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper, DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc and SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text."

:cloud9: In addition to that, Paul said though I know ALL MYSTERIES...and there are other scriptures that mention mystery or mysteries. So I consider Paul to be the premiere example of a "mystical Christian", particularly since what He was taught of the mysteries was given to Him by the Spirit of the risen Lord not by the disciples who knew Him after the flesh, nor the imaginations of men, and certainly not by the devil.

Obviously there were Jews who went about establishing their own righteousness and  it only got worse after Jesus came on the scene (out of bitterness and jealousy); much of the Talmud (which is not considered scripture) is proof of this. But to call THEM "mystical" is inaccurate, just as calling the other "branch" of them not mystical is also inaccurate, as the OT came through mystical experiences with God which is to say, through the Spirit in various ways.

John the Baptist's father was a levitical priest, and he certainly had a mystical experience with the authority of the Spirit of God, as did the devout man Simeon and the woman Anna in the temple at Jesus's presentation. The OT is full of such experiences, and what you fail to realize is that mystical experiences come with understanding, in all your getting, get understanding. The experience cannot be separated from the Spirit of Truth, because they are one and the same, therefore understanding is automatically present.

Understanding here is not as the carnal mind's understanding of a provable fact, but it itself is an attribute of the Spirit of God and is instantaneously deposited into the believer, as if it was something they had always known , ie. no thinking about it was necessary or even possible prior to receiving it, because it BYPASSES THE CARNAL MIND ALTOGETHER and goes directly into the spirit, and THEN is retrievable by the carnal mind, not the other way around.

Simply put, it is the culmination of union, as between a man/Spirit and his wife/soul = "child"/new LIFE. Just as we are not aware of the exact second of conception in the natural, so too are we unaware of the twinkling of an eye split second that the mystical experience brought understanding, for as soon as it happens, it produced new life. Blessings...

[YoungYuni]

Fireinfolding

You dont owe me an apology on that. You are offended at what I see the scriptures prove. Afterall it pretty much states "a meaningful Spiritual life in communion with God walking by the inner light" (I see as love). I actually see that as "walking in" the truth and less about the form of knowledge but more after a revelation of Christ in them. I dont regard it as an infiltration but as defined, more of a manifestion of Christ in them in the context of Christian mysticism. You can look for fault in everything or you can see the pure in most anything.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Hiya!

No I am not offended by anything Scriptural or biblical or spiritual.

What you presented concerning Christian Mysticism is neither Scriptural or biblical or spiritual.

Therefore, do not speak on my behalf.

:thumbdown: :thumbdown:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya!

This discussion was about how it was that two Greek scholars could have two different conclusions.

It isn't because of Mysticism; it is because the two Greek scholars, despite being scholars, having different levels of factual understanding and better comprehension for the truth as a result.

Nobody has been able to refute this claim with credibility and integrity.

Regardless if there are a few people who 'amen' one another, is not evidence or proof that one of the Greek scholars was chosen by God to understand while the other was not.

That is modified Calvinism made to fit a universal salvation message.

Calvinism is unsound and ungodly to it's core. Any modified form of this doctrine, is also unsound and ungodly to it's core.


The propositional conclusions based on facts concerning both the character and behavior of God does not support your conclusions.

#1. The carnal mind is the mind set on the things of man and not God.
#2. The spiritual mind is the mind set on the things of God and not man.

Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is  hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Galations 6:8
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called "LOGOS" in Scripture.

Logos is the Greek word for logic and reasoning.

Therefore logic and reasoning cannot be the carnal mind!

For me, this entire discussion has proved that most of many still do not understand or know what the Scriptures are talking about, have never had or thrown out sound doctrine and instruction concerning a godly life and have absolutely no sense when it comes to what the Spirit actually is.

:2c:  :dontknow:

[YoungYuni]

Young Yunni had written

I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.


Fireinfolding's comment

You dont owe me an apology on that. You are offended at what I see the scriptures prove

Thats not speaking on YOUR behalf :grin: :grin:

Titus 1:10-12
10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.

[Molly]

 13-14The day when Jesus made the mud and healed the man was a Sabbath. So the people took the man to the Pharisees. 15They asked him how he was able to see, and he answered, "Jesus made some mud and smeared it on my eyes. Then after I washed it off, I could see."

    16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man Jesus doesn't come from God. If he did, he would not break the law of the Sabbath."

   Others asked, "How could someone who is a sinner work such a miracle?" Since the Pharisees could not agree among themselves, 17they asked the man, "What do you say about this one who healed your eyes?"

   "He is a prophet!" the man told them.

    18But the Jewish leaders would not believe that the man had once been blind. They sent for his parents 19and asked them, "Is this the son that you said was born blind? How can he now see?"

    20The man's parents answered, "We are certain that he is our son, and we know that he was born blind. 21But we don't know how he got his sight or who gave it to him. Ask him! He is old enough to speak for himself."

    22-23The man's parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. The leaders had already agreed that no one was to have anything to do with anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah.

    24The leaders called the man back and said, "Swear by God to tell the truth! We know that Jesus is a sinner."

    25The man replied, "I don't know if he is a sinner or not. All I know is that I used to be blind, but now I can see!"

    26"What did he do to you?" the Jewish leaders asked. "How did he heal your eyes?"

    27The man answered, "I have already told you once, and you refused to listen. Why do you want me to tell you again? Do you also want to become his disciples?" :laughing7:

    28The leaders insulted the man and said, "You are his follower! We are followers of Moses. 29We are sure that God spoke to Moses, but we don't even know where Jesus comes from."

    30"How strange!" the man replied. "He healed my eyes, and yet you don't know where he comes from. 31We know that God listens only to people who love and obey him. God doesn't listen to sinners. 32And this is the first time in history that anyone has ever given sight to someone born blind. 33Jesus could not do anything unless he came from God."

    34The leaders told the man, "You have been a sinner since the day you were born! Do you think you can teach us anything?" Then they said, "You can never come back into any of our meeting places!"

    35When Jesus heard what had happened, he went and found the man. Then Jesus asked, "Do you have faith in the Son of Man?"

    36He replied, "Sir, if you will tell me who he is, I will put my faith in him."

    37"You have already seen him," Jesus answered, "and right now he is talking with you."

    38The man said, "Lord, I put my faith in you!" Then he worshiped Jesus.

    39Jesus told him, "I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."

    40When the Pharisees heard Jesus say this, they asked, "Are we blind?"

    41Jesus answered, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty. But now that you claim to see, you will keep on being guilty."


--John 9

[Cardinal]

Young Yuni said; "The propositional conclusions based on facts concerning both the character and behavior of God does not support your conclusions.

#1. The carnal mind is the mind set on the things of man and not God.
#2. The spiritual mind is the mind set on the things of God and not man.

Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is  hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "


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:cloud9: I think I see how you arrived at your conclusion, but this translation you used is off just enough to corrupt it's meaning. KJV: To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Notice the subtle difference?

Your version implies that there is ONE mind that can be set on either man or God, and thus solving the problem, as opposed to their being TWO minds, ie. the carnal mind AND the mind of Christ, which is Spirit. 
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Young Yuni said, " Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called "LOGOS" in Scripture.

Logos is the Greek word for logic and reasoning.

Therefore logic and reasoning cannot be the carnal mind!"
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:cloud9: Logos was a word first used by a Greek philosopher in 600 BC, "to designate the divine (and I'm sure he didn't mean THE divine God) reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe, as it relates to the order and progression of things in the universe", thus the word's slant and usage towards Helenistic philosophy. Since the NT was written in Greek, the language of the day, they had to communicate with what they had.

Rhema is the equivalent word in the Hebrew, and it means a word SPOKEN, a living word, ie. His breath/Spirit, as opposed to a thought that originated in the minds of men.

Thus it is written;

I Corinthians 19 - For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom (natural wisdom = logic and reasoning of the carnal minds of men) KNEW NOT GOD, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:  23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
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Young Yuni said; "For me, this entire discussion has proved that most of many still do not understand or know what the Scriptures are talking about, have never had or thrown out sound doctrine and instruction concerning a godly life and have absolutely no sense when it comes to what the Spirit actually is."
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:cloud9: Let's talk about sound doctrine for a minute. The word sound means healthy, whole, NOT CORRUPTED. So doctrine that is sound, is something that makes us whole or COMPLETE, as in one with the Head (which entails being "beheaded" that the mind of Christ might have rulership over the body). We are not seeking to be one with a natural Head of flesh and blood.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 

Sound doctrine is also something that is not corrupted. The Word that is Spirit/rhema is corrupted by the carnal minds of men, when it is grasped and brought "down" by the carnal nature of "Jacob", which means, "heelcatcher", into something that can be handled and touched, ie. seen only with the senses/carnal mind as opposed to being seen with the mind of Christ.

An interesting witness to this is in an unexpected place;

Acts 27:27 - But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country; 28 And SOUNDED, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms.  29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.

There are many things I could bring out on this, but I will stick with sounded for now. The word there means to cast or throw, sound for distance, and was here inferring to throwing something heavy overboard with a line attached to measure the depth of the water. Obviously, the closer they got to land/earth/flesh, the shallower the water/Spirit. Conversely, the father away they got from land/earth/flesh, the deeper the water/Spirit.

This word used here is also close in meaning to another word for throw which is ballo, and if you add the prefix para on that, you get the word for parable. So when Jesus was putting forth his parables, He was SOUNDING to see how "deep" the "waters" were around Him. The Pharisees, who clung to the logos/written Word, thinking in THEM, they had life or Spirit, were quite taken aback by the One who IS life, and IS Spirit, for from henceforth we'll not know Him after the flesh (or logos/letter) but after the Spirit/rhema/Word. Blessings...

PS. The word there also means to throw a dart or javelin, which brings to mind about the fiery darts of the wicked one. So another truth to be gleaned out of this is that the water quenches the fiery darts. So the deeper the water, the darts never have a chance to hit the flesh of one who is in Christ/Spirit.