Something I'm trying to figure out is how is it that there are people who can read and write in Greek, yet they believe in eternal hell. I have seen this firsthand at the university I attend. There are two professors who teach Greek there. One of the them believes in ET, whereas the other one believes in UR. They are both experts in the language, yet they each hold to different views. Like I said, this is somewhat confusing. Any thoughts?
Words change meaning over time!
Paul
Because reading and writing greek directly is irrevalent in the sense that anything read or written still must be translated.
So it may appear to be a milestone of greatness that someone has learned to read and write greek directly this is a facade to what is really going on.
Reading or Writing a Greek word such as aionos is only going to be understood as far as what they believe the proper translation is.
The greek is an ancient language that had to be translated to begin with.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2009, 03:45:40 AM
Because reading and writing greek directly is irrevalent in the sense that anything read or written still must be translated.
So it may appear to be a milestone of greatness that someone has learned to read and write greek directly this is a facade to what is really going on.
Reading or Writing a Greek word such as aionos is only going to be understood as far as what they believe the proper translation is.
The greek is an ancient language that had to be translated to begin with.
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess following those lines means that the professor who believes in ET was taught that aionios means eternal. Come to think of it, the text book we used for the class listed eternal as the meaning for aionios.
Quote from: Jerm on January 07, 2009, 03:49:30 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2009, 03:45:40 AM
Because reading and writing greek directly is irrevalent in the sense that anything read or written still must be translated.
So it may appear to be a milestone of greatness that someone has learned to read and write greek directly this is a facade to what is really going on.
Reading or Writing a Greek word such as aionos is only going to be understood as far as what they believe the proper translation is.
The greek is an ancient language that had to be translated to begin with.
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess following those lines means that the professor who believes in ET was taught that aionios means eternal. Come to think of it, the text book we used for the class listed eternal as the meaning for aionios.
Well, the problem is that Greek is not often presented as the abstract language that it is. I neglected to add that to my previous post, sorry.
Eternal is a proper abstract term for aionios such as "that stoplight took forever" but physically literal it means a period of time with a beginning and end. Thats my understanding of it.
The sad thing is that ministers in religious organizations seem to be the only ones I am aware of (someone correct me if I am wrong) that present their ability to read and pronounce greek or hebrew from the ancient text as an indicator that they are better suited to teach something other than how to read and pronouce it. ;)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Well, the problem is that Greek is not often presented as the abstract language that it is. I neglected to add that to my previous post, sorry.
Eternal is a proper abstract term for aionios such as "that stoplight took forever" but physically literal it means a period of time with a beginning and end. Thats my understanding of it.
The sad thing is that ministers in religious organizations seem to be the only ones I am aware of (someone correct me if I am wrong) that present their ability to read and pronounce greek or hebrew from the ancient text as an indicator that they are better suited to teach something other than how to read and pronouce it. ;)
So very true. The word aion in Greek is expressed in Hebrew as olam. Hebrew, unlike Greek, is a concrete, sense oriented language. So with that in mind, let's examine this word to see what it means:
It consists of 4 letters, ayin, waw, lamed and mem. Originally all Hebrew letters were represented as pictures. These letters were represented by:
O=eye....meaning to look, among other things
H=tent peg...meaning to join two things together, the idea of "and"
L=shepherd staff.....which carried the meaning of to, toward, a staff was used to guide the sheep to something.
M=water.....which meant water, among other things.
Literally, the world Olam meant "Eye led to water." When you look out over the sea as far as the eye can see, you end up looking at the horizon. What is on the other side is unknown, and what is on the horizon is hazy, hard to make out details. But the horizon does have an end.
This was their way of expressing, in concrete terms, by something you can see with your eyes, the idea of an unknown period of time. It could be little or great, but, as the above poster said, it does have a beginning and end. Unfortunately, words such as this did get changed in meaning over time, due in part to the influence of ideas that came in that influenced definitions. Such is a common occurance even today. Hope this helps.
Ron
Hiya Ron!
That was really neat!
:bgdance:
If we're full of preconceived ideas and beliefs, we can block out truth, skip over it without really noticing it, or try to distort it and hammer it into "making it fit" into our existing belief system. I think that's VERY common, and part of what keeps mainstream and denominations going in the vein they're in. Also, there's that issue again--God veils and reveals, but He does will that all will come to the knowledge of the truth. But IMO, most will only do so in the next age. God's blessing, James.
Did you ask the two professors you mention how it was that they both came to their respective beliefs concerning aion?
With some theology makes them translate aion to accord with their theology.
For instance, the one professor's theology tells him that for there to be eternal life there must be eternal damnation. Otherwise if there is not eternal damnation there can be no eternal life. He may improperly base Matthew 25:46 on that premise.
Your other professor's theology or UR tells him that since all will be saved, the damnation or chastening cannot be eternal. Therefore the believer's life is eonian or pertaining to the eon and the unbeliever gets eonian chastening which is chastening pertaining to the eon if based upon Matthew 25:46.
The ET professor might have a theology that states that God is eternal based upon Romans 16:25,26:
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Rom.16:25,26 KJV)
But has based his belief system on something like the KJV above.
However, the prof. who believes in UR might base his understanding on the noun/adjective relationship that the adjective cannot be greater than the noun from which it is derived and so this translation makes more sense:
"Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, (26) yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -" (Concordant Literal).
According to the KJV, the improper use of the adjective aionios makes the noun (God) force it's idea upon the adjective. (bad.) However in the latter translation the adjective remains unchanged and forces its meaning upon the noun (God). (that's good.)
So in the former it is saying how long God lives. In the latter it tells us the relationship God has with the eons. Being the eonian God tells us that God is the Placer or Subjector of all to the eons. He is over the eons, directing them, subjecting all mankind to the goal He has for each eon.
This should be a good start as to why they believe differently.
Oh, also, translators over the years have improperly translated Plato and other early Greek writers' use of aion and aionios and transferred those paganistic ideas into their translation of the Bibles. However, if properly translated, Plato's Timeaus makes perfect sense when aion and aionios are not given the idea of eternality. Besides, those early Greeks had no ideal of eternalness. Do you see how your Prof's could be influenced by these things?
Tony
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 07, 2009, 06:38:30 AM
Literally, the world Olam meant "Eye led to water." When you look out over the sea as far as the eye can see, you end up looking at the horizon. What is on the other side is unknown, and what is on the horizon is hazy, hard to make out details. But the horizon does have an end.
Thats another good way to put it, I had learned that Olam meant "a time far off" which is pretty much the same idea as what you posted.
For me, it isn't the original text that gives you the Truth of what's being said. I think the fact that you have two professors that understand the language well, and still have opposite opinions is a great example that regardless of how much knowledge we can obtain, that alone isn't what gives us truth. Man can not live on bread alone. We love to put our confidence in what we can understand and what we can literally see. That's why so many have embraced the Scriptures.
But the problems are not in the Scriptures themselves, the problems are in the limited minds of those who embrace them. There are many places in Scripture where knowing the original words reveals much of what's being said. But lets not forget, there were professors in Jesus' day as well who had the entire package that our modern day scholars will never have. They had complete understanding of the language. They had access to the original texts. They had their own cultural context. And their ancestors wrote much of the book. They had it all . . .yet they were the biggest adversaries to Jesus because even though the book was written by some of the most profound and wisest men, inspired by the Holy Spirit himself . . . the volume of the book is not intended to tickle the natural thinking man's mind. It's about spiritual realities.
And the only way to see them is by way of revelation from the one who sent them. And the only way to get that revelation is not by studying the tangible, but it's by having a relationship with the invisible. Proverbs tells us not to rely on our own understanding. Jesus himself stated that without him we are nothing. So it's really no surprise that even those that have a deep understanding of the language, still miss the message of what is written. What is written points to what can't be seen. It doesn't necessarily reveal it, it just points to it. Revelation comes only from God in the Spirit.
That's why passages like "Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God" are so poignant. Pursue the spirit and every "thing" else falls into place after that. My mind always gets the cart before the horse. I always think "understanding" comes before "acting". It would be illogical for me to "do" something without fully understanding ahead of time what it is I'm to be doing . . . right? Well, in the natural, that makes perfect sense. But when dealing with spiritual matters, it's just the opposite. God wants us to act according to his voice, what we hear within us, not according to what we see or think.
Just thinking out loud.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2009, 04:04:49 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 07, 2009, 06:38:30 AM
Literally, the world Olam meant "Eye led to water." When you look out over the sea as far as the eye can see, you end up looking at the horizon. What is on the other side is unknown, and what is on the horizon is hazy, hard to make out details. But the horizon does have an end.
Thats another good way to put it, I had learned that Olam meant "a time far off" which is pretty much the same idea as what you posted.
I think the basic idea behind olam is "obscure."
For instance, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 it is stated that "He has put obscurity in their heart."
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put
obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
The Hebrew word behind "obscurity" is Olam and the LXX Hebrew/Greek scholars translated Olam here as "aiwna".
It is difficult to see the idea of God placing "a time far off" or "eye led to water" in their heart so that man can't find out His work.
The Authorized Version makes the matter even worse by translating: "He hath set the world in their heart." Now I know nothing is impossible with God, but, that stretches credulence pretty far.
But Gregoryfl's idea is pretty good when it comes to what is "hazy" or the "unknown." The early Hebrews knew how long a day, week, month and year would last but the duration of any Olam was hazy or unknown or obscure.
QuoteFor me, it isn't the original text that gives you the Truth of what's being said. I think the fact that you have two professors that understand the language well, and still have opposite opinions is a great example that regardless of how much knowledge we can obtain, that alone isn't what gives us truth. Man can not live on bread alone. We love to put our confidence in what we can understand and what we can literally see. That's why so many have embraced the Scriptures.
Hiya!
There is no evidence they are of the same caliber of understanding or knowledge. Only that they have some knowledge and based on some knowledge both have different views as a result.
The example of two Greek Scholars concerning Greek disagreeing with each other, is an invalid example of how two people with the same knowledge can disagree with each other.
Therefore there is no fact found in the above example to ponder.
Knowledge of the truth is never wrong. Most people just have not obtained it.
:icon_queen: :icon_king:
But the principle is the same. Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts. My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.
And that still applies to me as well. I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well. It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me.
Quote from: Nathan on January 07, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
But the principle is the same. Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts. My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.
And that still applies to me as well. I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well. It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me.
Very good Nathan.
Peter basically had the same understanding as you:
1Pe 1:11 searching into what or what manner of era
the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."
David had the spirit of Christ in him as did the prophets. Had they been alive when Christ came they surely would have known Him since they had His spirit.
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 06:32:41 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 07, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
But the principle is the same. Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts. My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.
And that still applies to me as well. I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well. It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me.
Very good Nathan.
Peter basically had the same understanding as you:
1Pe 1:11 searching into what or what manner of era the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."
David had the spirit of Christ in him as did the prophets. Had they been alive when Christ came they surely would have known Him since they had His spirit.
Yeah, I relate to Peter a lot. In fact, the "who do you say that I am" was a great revelation to me in so many ways. I believe that Peter's response to that question was not his head talking, but a revelation of the heart professed something his head had never heard before. That expeirence he had actually changed the direction of Jesus ministry that day.
yup sis..use that verse at the end of me page, The AGE of darkness,( the END of the WORLD) behind the veil,
Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Hbr 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief
The proof is that none of the greek speaking fathers of the patristic age used aionion with the meaning of endless. Dare to say they didn't know their own language :)
They had different opinions of course, some believed reformation (most of them), some annhilation and some endless torment but they didn't base their ideas over the meaning of aionion but on the overall interpretation of scriptures as they understood it. And none of them ever take a dogmatic stance on this topic as they understood that scriptures leaved room for different views.
I think one "may" believe in endless torment as long as he thinks so because that fits his overall understanding of the revelation and his interpretation of some specific texts, but if one affirms that endless torment is explicitly taught in the scriptures because aionion means endless... well he is retelling the same old b.s. of Agustine that has been harming western christianity for the last XV centuries.
Renzo
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 05:37:21 PM
The Hebrew word behind "obscurity" is Olam and the LXX Hebrew/Greek scholars translated Olam here as "aiwna".
It is difficult to see the idea of God placing "a time far off" or "eye led to water" in their heart so that man can't find out His work.
But Gregoryfl's idea is pretty good when it comes to what is "hazy" or the "unknown." The early Hebrews knew how long a day, week, month and year would last but the duration of any Olam was hazy or unknown or obscure.
That verse in Ecclesiastes you mentioned Tony carries that same concrete thought of eyes led to water, speaking of the horizon. When you look at the horizon those things seen there are indeed obscure. You cannot make out any details. Thanks for bringing out that verse. I have translated this verse this way:
He has also set the-horizon in their inner-guides, yet so that man can't find out the work that the Strongest-Yoked-Guide has done from the beginning even to the end. Ecc 3:11
Ron
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 07:42:22 PM
Heres a thought not sure if it was ever considered but we know God hides things like "No man knoweth" in relation to the obscurity in their hearts and YET they shall see out of that obscurity and what no man knoweth the Spirit of God most certainly does (we we have been given who reveals a thing God hid)... the secret things.
The first debates on this "eternal" deal stuff in regards to "eternal life" was always argued on the basis of TIME verses relationship with God thus eternal life (to know God) would be God life because HE is the eternal God wouldnt that be true? What apostle says anyone who is a murderer hath no "eternal life" IN him but God hath given us eternal life (that which abides IN us) TO KNOW HIM = eternal life. So its not a "time thing" even though that can also be applied in the scope of all things being summed up in Christ who is NAMED "The Beginning" (itself) and "The End" who stands BETWEEN the TWO **ages** themselves (spiritually speaking) the AGE of a CHILD under the tutor = THE LAW which always intended to lead them To Christ (THE END of the law and THAT AGE/CHILD) and to the FULL AGE (Faith is come) the AGE of a SON. And Christ is "The Beginning" (in name as well too).
So within all of this (after spiritual truths) theres a "perpetual ongoing thing (a process of sorts) of deliverance from the vanity He subjected all things to and yet still an end and a beginning (even as shown in Christ by name) who is as the Rock of AGES in the spiritual application of it all. Does that make any sense? I mean if it says "eternal God" we know God always IS but in regards to punishment will he meet us as a MAN? He says no, so if its speaking of "eternal punishment" could it be GOD punishment (of whom we are to leave room for). So the nature of the punishment comes through Him and the nature of it is Spiritual (because we would agree the fire is not physical but spiritual as God is Spirit) YET at the same time the consideration that God is not (in character) angry for ever. So what can be a perpetual ongoing process in accordance with Him who was, is, and will (always be) The end of anything and the begining of anything is with Christ who is also NAMED after "TIMES" which can sometimes throw people off in what they might be "measuring" in relation to it all.
That was a mouthful but I struggle with putting that out there and Im not sure I made sense any, I could only try :grin:
Yes, a mouthful but OH SO GOOD! Thanks sis for that wonderful truth!
Ron
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 05:37:21 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2009, 04:04:49 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 07, 2009, 06:38:30 AM
Literally, the world Olam meant "Eye led to water." When you look out over the sea as far as the eye can see, you end up looking at the horizon. What is on the other side is unknown, and what is on the horizon is hazy, hard to make out details. But the horizon does have an end.
Thats another good way to put it, I had learned that Olam meant "a time far off" which is pretty much the same idea as what you posted.
I think the basic idea behind olam is "obscure."
For instance, in Ecclesiastes 3:11 it is stated that "He has put obscurity in their heart."
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."
The Hebrew word behind "obscurity" is Olam and the LXX Hebrew/Greek scholars translated Olam here as "aiwna".
It is difficult to see the idea of God placing "a time far off" or "eye led to water" in their heart so that man can't find out His work.
The Authorized Version makes the matter even worse by translating: "He hath set the world in their heart." Now I know nothing is impossible with God, but, that stretches credulence pretty far.
But Gregoryfl's idea is pretty good when it comes to what is "hazy" or the "unknown." The early Hebrews knew how long a day, week, month and year would last but the duration of any Olam was hazy or unknown or obscure.
Yep! I saw that with the obscurity thing right on Tony, I love this too BUT
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Now I believe this has everything to do with who knows the thoughts of God and the SECRET things (that no man knoweth) as one of the previous verses also implies and the light that shines out of the darkness in the face of Christ WHO **IS** The Beginning AND The End even as mention in one of your prior verses.
There always SEEMS to be one verse that appears to SEAL a thing and another verse that SEEMS to OPEN a thing thats why word studies and comparing are important. HE opens it :grin:
For example heres a verse which has a "question"
Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death?
and heres Jesus words which appears to answer it
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
So at the first, it appears God stuck obscurity in us and we will never know anything BUT elsewhere its through the same obscurity (one could not see through) that one eventually will.
His words are amazing. I also found the post above this one right on too, that is very interesting
Very good thoughts there fireinfold,
I guess one could say that though the two proffessors got obscurity put in them by God, there must have come a point in tiime when God took the obscurity out of the one prof but it was left in the ET prof for now?
Another thing to keep in mind that has already been somewhat touched on, is that we are all products of our education to some extent.
Most people take what they are taught at face value rather than searching it out on their own. Chances are, the professor who believes in ET was taught aion (and other words) meant a certain thing by others who believed in ET and he never really bothered to check it out for himself. If the only "authorities" on the subject he ever read say that aion means eternal, for example, and he never seriously considered the dissenting position, then that's the side of the fence he's going to come down on.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 06:57:56 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 07, 2009, 06:50:10 PM
yup sis..use that verse at the end of me page, The AGE of darkness,( the END of the WORLD) behind the veil,
Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Hbr 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief
Amen! :bigGrin: That verse was actually the first "go round" I had with Ray smith remember? I used the WORD eternity instead of obscurity (or something like that) I forget actually but didnt matter either way because you show the point of it not being an "end all" thing as the first verse seems to "imply".
Gosh, do you recall the other word? Or recall that first mail that was put up on his site, that was way back some years ago before we got kicked off :grin:
yeah Twas a few yrs back, He didnt take to nicely to it, But Heck ,Thats Ray,... :icon_flower: yeah and Kicked off later, for me even to suggest how scripture shows Peter as example of the futility of the Flesh...but there ya Go :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on January 07, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
But the principle is the same. Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts. My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.
And that still applies to me as well. I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well. It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me.
Hi Nat, :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Hi Tony :icon_flower:
Good to see you still about Bud :thumbsup:
Quote from: Doc on January 07, 2009, 08:32:28 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that has already been somewhat touched on, is that we are all products of our education to some extent.
Most people take what they are taught at face value rather than searching it out on their own. Chances are, the professor who believes in ET was taught aion (and other words) meant a certain thing by others who believed in ET and he never really bothered to check it out for himself. If the only "authorities" on the subject he ever read say that aion means eternal, for example, and he never seriously considered the dissenting position, then that's the side of the fence he's going to come down on.
Yes, and how many people, profs included were duped by Vine's work and other's work on aion/aionios?
What a shame. Yet this too is of God for Pro 25:2 "
It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter."
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 08:52:21 PM
You know Tony I had thought the same, not sure bro because even if any of us had ALL knowledge (even the knowing of ALL the mysteries/secrets themselves) these are still listed as those things that are tossed into seeing "In part" category.
I definately think its "a start" in "tasting and SEEING the Lord is good bro. Sorta like enough to propell us to the finish line to see Him as He is where the two become one in nature (or like God). By that I dont mean to "be like God in some self exaltation fashion" but be like Him (Who is most merciful). Its like "getting what that means" and what HE desires to be toward US and what HE desires from US in relation to others (being an extension of His nature in this world) His hands and feet. Im certainly not there yet but what a beautiful thing to be a part of... to be made perfect in love and the extension of it to others. Sure would be great to walk in Him so perfectly, to be a master of "that" would be something else.
Hugs :HeartThrob:
fireinfolding, you will get your wish to the fullest when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15:28). All that God is: love, joy, peace, patience etc. we will be. We will see Him as He is for we shall be like Him.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 09:31:51 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 09:00:21 PM
Quote from: Doc on January 07, 2009, 08:32:28 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that has already been somewhat touched on, is that we are all products of our education to some extent.
Most people take what they are taught at face value rather than searching it out on their own. Chances are, the professor who believes in ET was taught aion (and other words) meant a certain thing by others who believed in ET and he never really bothered to check it out for himself. If the only "authorities" on the subject he ever read say that aion means eternal, for example, and he never seriously considered the dissenting position, then that's the side of the fence he's going to come down on.
Yes, and how many people, profs included were duped by Vine's work and other's work on aion/aionios?
What a shame. Yet this too is of God for Pro 25:2 "It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter."
Tony you got some KILLER verses today! :grin: Both ways Tony, the Bereans investigating the matter in relation to what they have been told (Nobel Character/ Glory of Kings) and I thought another thing was too kool in relation to the verse you posted, my version uses the word THING (like that matters right?) :grin:
But this is kool see this as pertaining somewhat to whats obscured and what becomes clear
Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Luke 1:32 that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Phem 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is **in you** in Christ Jesus
Christ IN YOU
Thought that was Kool cause God also hid these things in Christ and I got a big chuckle out of God calling him a THING or HOLY THING which we are to grow up into.
Though we can investigate a matter (or a thing) by searching it out, Christs words were ye SEARCH the sciptures (even as the Nobel bereans were commending in doing) but these testify OF me :grin:
Isaiah 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
And of Christ
Col 2:3 In whom **are hid** all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures
He is the treasure in this earthen vessel
Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
2Cr 3:13 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
You can go on and, He so rocks this world dont He? :grin: Wow!! How GREAT is our Our God? Too awesome to contain the joy over Him thats for sure :bigGrin:
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; (fruitfulness) and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Seems to be something a stirring . . . hear the rustling of the leaves? Seasons are changing. Where there used to be a great bounty in the church is becoming a dried up riverbed . . . those who see themselves as the kings which God declared them to be are on the ready to begin to manifest his authority and take the land (inheritance) that's been promised to us.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 10:23:28 PM
Speaking of "rustling of leaves" you must have had a word whispered in your ear here :grin: I just had the hugest wind storm blow in not too long ago and all my power in my home is out right now save the few minutes left on my laptop :grin:
I'll be sitting i the dark shortly (though thank God its still light out) :grin:
Amen Nat
Hey Girl
just read ya pm....wheres ya candles? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 10:32:05 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 07, 2009, 10:27:31 PM
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 10:23:28 PM
Speaking of "rustling of leaves" you must have had a word whispered in your ear here :grin: I just had the hugest wind storm blow in not too long ago and all my power in my home is out right now save the few minutes left on my laptop :grin:
I'll be sitting i the dark shortly (though thank God its still light out) :grin:
Amen Nat
Hey Girl
just read ya pm....wheres ya candles? :icon_flower:
Taff, the second you posted my power came back on :grin: No lie, just a second ago I hear my stereo kick on.
I got me some killer 100 hour candles though all is kool :grin:
:HeartThrob:
Well Im glad ya Not left in the dark cos I know where ya Live....Whens T home?
Quote from: Tony N on January 07, 2009, 06:32:41 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 07, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
But the principle is the same. Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts. My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.
And that still applies to me as well. I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well. It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me.
Very good Nathan.
Peter basically had the same understanding as you:
1Pe 1:11 searching into what or what manner of era the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."
David had the spirit of Christ in him as did the prophets. Had they been alive when Christ came they surely would have known Him since they had His spirit.
Hiya!
Speaking of Peter, why not read other things Peter had wrote?
Let us find out how one acknowledges the Truth?
2 Peter 1:2-11
2Grace and peace be yours in abundance
through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness
through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
What amazing words Peter gives... ...all this comes through our KNOWLEDGE of Him.
Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
The reason why one Greek Scholar cannot acknowledge the knowledge of the truth, and another does. Is because one has the knowledge of Him, the other does not.
It is very simple and straight forward and does not take a supernaturally empowered spirit filled guru to reveal this.
I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.
If you do not know who Jesus is, you lack the knowledge to acquire the truth.
To say that, "Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . ."
It is not a fact.
To say that, "It's not about knowing "about" God. It's about living "in" Him and He in me."
Is a misnomer and a presumptive statement which distorts what is actually fact versus myth.
Read what Peter said...
through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord and
through our knowledge of him Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
The pharisees and scribes did not believe the facts to even interpret what is true in the first place. They were blind by their denial of Him.
Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
The pharisee and teachers of the Law were mystical and gnostic in their approach. They were not true purveyors of facts; nor did they have any desire to seek the Truth because it would strip them of all power.
Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
The pharisee and the teachers of the Law did not want to believe, and their hearts were hardened because of their unbelief. They did not want to believe the facts, and made up stories of their own to follow.
Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
Mystical Christianity is satanic and of the devil, empowering ego's and enabling pride to overlord one another.
The world has no use for such hypocrites and liars, even among Christianity.
These people were the Pharisee and Teachers of the Law, whom Jesus rebuked and cursed. Those who have a mind of mysticism, are under the same rebuke and curse.
They are blind, hardened and set down a path of destruction and will not acknowledge it because of their denial and unbelief.
:bottlebump: :bdh:
Hiya Fireinthefolding!
I understand your confusion of this issue. I ask you not to confuse it any longer.
QuoteSo theres no spiritual meaning (or spiritual reality)? or if there is its evil?
Who said if there is, that it is evil?
Certainly not I, so why would this even be considered?
There is spiritual meaning and spiritual reality, but it is not mystical in any sense or evil.
It is quite apparent to the sense and obvious to the intelligence.QuoteSomething not apparent to the senses or obvious to the natural man maybe...? is evil?
Galations 5:19-26
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
1 Corinthians 15:33-35
33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Colossians 1:9-11
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully.
It is completely obvious. People need to come back to their senses!
It is not a mystery.
QuoteHaving communion with God? Is evil?
No it is not evil; nor is it a mystery.
QuoteAnd an inner experience of light? Is evil?
No it is not evil; nor is it a mystery.
2 Timothy 2:25-26
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
It is very obvious, there is no mystery.
To the people have made it a mystical experience, it is quite obvious they are in fact lost and blind taking leave of their senses and now are held captive to do the will of the devil.
The devil, who has been a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
Religion, mysticism, legalism, etc, all lies meant to hide oneself from the knowledge of the truth.
:icon_king: :icon_queen:
QuoteIts that which is mystical YOU diss that HAS some kind of spiritual reality.
Hiya!
There is no such thing as Mystical Christianity!
Thanks!
:cloud9: :gangel:
P.S. Technically there is, so when I say there is no such thing, what I mean to say is that it is not of God. In the same way when I speak of Religion, I am not talking about James sarcasm to those who claim to have religion.
You know what? Let us see what James has to say about it:
James 1:19-27
19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror
24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James was pretty clear about it. There is no mysticism, or mystery there.
James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
:gangel: :mblush:
Hiya,
You may want to be clearer since what I see here is nothing but your attempt to make a fight.
The reality is it matters not if you like my approach. That is just an excuse you hold in order not to understand what it is I am saying.
If you are the one who recognizes this approach, regardless of how it is, then it is up to you to respond in a godly manner regardless any approach.
1 Peter 3:15-16
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
So let me ask you some questions, rhetorically you do not need to answer them.
Do you hold to a Christian Mysticism?
That is, are you a Christian Mystic and claim that there is a spiritual mystery that nobody knows but a select few?
Do you believe that you are more special than someone else, simply because God chose you over the other guy to have this mystery revealed?
If you answer "yes" to any of those questions, then you do not know God because it is the desire of God that all mankind shall know the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
This testimony given in its proper time, is not speaking of some future event unknown and mysterious.
He had already given himself as a ransom for all mankind, the testimony given in its proper time 2000 years ago.
Hebrews 4:6-8
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you listen to his voice, do not harden your hearts."
That phrase "listen to" or sometimes written as the word "hear" is:
akouō
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understand
So when was that proper time of His Testimony?
It is today, and is not for some but for all mankind.
How does faith come?
It is not some mysterious spiritual experience, it comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.
Romans 10:16-18
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Therefore, if at any time someone does not know God and Jesus; if at any time someone does not have the knowledge of Him; consequently, it is because they have chosen not to listen and because of this fact they become dull.
The only ones who find mystery in the knowledge of God; the only ones who do not retain the knowledge of God, are those who have turned their eyes away from Him and are hardened by their denial and unbelief.
1 Timothy 6:20-21
20Guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.
Romans 1:18-21
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
A person's mind is made futile, and their heart darkened and hardened by a a person's choice to disbelieve, deny and reject the knowledge of the truth, not because the knowledge of the truth is some cosmic spiritual mystery.
:2c: :dontknow:
P.S. Now if this is all a misunderstanding, you should probably communicate that rather than going off making a mountain from an ant hill.
:thumbdown:
QuoteI looked at your verses but there was not a single verse relative to anything we are discussing regarding your slander of a meaningful (spiritual walk) in union with God (as defined by the word mysticism). There was nothing of the devil in a meaningful Spiritual walk with God
Hiya!
I did not slander anyone who has a union with God. Mysticism, as you defined it, is not godly in any manner.
1 a: having a spiritual meaning or reality
that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the mystical food of the sacrament>
A spiritual meaning and reality is apparent to the senses and obvious to the intelligence.
b: involving or having the nature of an individual's direct
subjective communion with God or ultimate reality <the mystical experience of the Inner Light>
A direct communion with God is not subjective, it is completely objective.
There is not one person who has superiority over another in any subjective manner concerning a communion with God or an ultimate reality.
2: mysterious , unintelligible
As demonstrated above and continually to you. God, Jesus and the knowledge of the truth is not mysterious or unintelligible, except to those who have ran from their senses and have rejected the knowledge of the truth in favor of their own reality.
I slander none who have an objective communion with God, since it is quite obvious they do because a true person of faith is justified by their works since it is the evidence of the Faith which justified them in the first place.
Even Jesus said, we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears.
Even Paul said, we are created to walk in good works.
Even James said, genuine faith is accompanied by works.
Even Peter said, we have abundance through the knowledge of God and Jesus with the power for anything through our knowledge of Him.
To say otherwise is not supported by an testimony, spiritual, scriptural or otherwise.
I am quite firm in what I said, do not make the mistake of misunderstanding it.
If you think you have been revealed a mystery that is not apparent and made obvious to anyone else, then you deceive yourself.
You speak of natural man and carnal man.
It is the natural and carnal man who claims there is a mystery that that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence, is subjective to that specific individual, and mysterious , unintelligible.
Come to your senses and recognize what kind of person that is.
Galatians 6:4-7
4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,
5for each one should carry his own load.
6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
If you cannot be reasonable in your response, do not respond. I will not be reading it.
:2c: :msealed:
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 03:12:28 AM
I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.
I think I understand where you are coming from and it is hard to pinpoint sometimes when someone is trying to make themselves appear at a higher level than others.
However, there is as aspect of spiritual discernment that must be acknowledged, how would you view this verse?
1C 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
It seems to me, what kicked off this whole thing was the "idea" that I implied revelation is more important than knowledge. The verses posted immediately after my post dealt with Peter's reference to "knowledge of God" as proof that knowledge is just as much a role as revelation.
I'm not going to add any more to what Kim has already stated . . . I couldn't agree with her more on every level. My point was, is, and will always be the fact that relying on my own knowledge gets me no where. It is from Scripture that I came to realize that. Spirit inspired it to be written . . .only Spirit can reveal the depths of it's meanings. Jesus himself told Peter that flesh and blood can not teach you the revelation of Jesus, that only comes from the Father . . .which can only happen when there's a relationship with the Father.
There are many mysteries in Scripture. the parables that Jesus uses as everyday language were each a mystery to those listening, and many still reading. Yes, there are many things in Scripture that are hidden. They are buried for those willing to dwell "in" Truth as opposed to others who use Truth for their own advancement. It's not about one being special over another. It's there for all to receive. But if you go in being led by your head and not your heart, all you're going to come back with is a bunch of facts and arguments. But if you go in being led by the spirit, you'll come back with life, light and most important . . Love.
My intent was never to imply that I think I'm above anyone. My intent was to share what I see and let others expound more on what I share so that both I and others can feed from each other in the things of Christ. Again, just because one can not see what the other is saying, doesn't mean either person is wrong . . . they're just in different places of relationship with the Father. Not closer or further away . .higher or lower . .just simply different.
This is all I'll say on the matter. It's not for me to defend really.
QuoteAgain, just because one can not see what the other is saying, doesn't mean either person is wrong . . . they're just in different places of relationship with the Father. Not closer or further away . .higher or lower . .just simply different.
:icon_flower:
"God gives to all life and breath and ALL" (Paul to the Athenians Acts 17).
Notice that when Paul spoke of the resurrection they jeered him. So God did not give most of the Athenians the grace to see what Paul was speaking of.
Act 17:33 Thus Paul came out of their midst.
Act 17:34 Yet some men, being joined to him, believe, among whom were Dionysius, the Areopagite, also, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
God gave understanding to those in Acts 17:34 who heard Paul.
Since God gives to all life and breath and all, it must be that anyone who sees the truth that it was given to them by God.
So we can't berate those who God has not given understanding to. It is just not their time yet.
You are so right on so many levels bro!! :goodpost: :goodpost:
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 05:45:59 PM
"God gives to all life and breath and ALL" (Paul to the Athenians Acts 17).
Notice that when Paul spoke of the resurrection they jeered him. So God did not give most of the Athenians the grace to see what Paul was speaking of.
Act 17:33 Thus Paul came out of their midst.
Act 17:34 Yet some men, being joined to him, believe, among whom were Dionysius, the Areopagite, also, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
God gave understanding to those in Acts 17:34 who heard Paul.
Since God gives to all life and breath and all, it must be that anyone who sees the truth that it was given to them by God.
So we can't berate those who God has not given understanding to. It is just not their time yet.
yup :icon_flower:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 08, 2009, 03:59:46 PM
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 03:12:28 AM
I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.
I think I understand where you are coming from and it is hard to pinpoint sometimes when someone is trying to make themselves appear at a higher level than others.
However, there is as aspect of spiritual discernment that must be acknowledged, how would you view this verse?
1C 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
The Natural Man is not speaking of one who has the faculty of reasoning and understanding.
The Natural Man is speaking of the one who puts their self interest above anything else.
What is the Spirit of God?
It is Love.
What does it mean to spiritually discern something?
It means it must be interpreted by Love.
We are commanded by God to be a people of reason and understanding who puts aside their self interest and operates out of love.
That is the Spiritual Man.
I acknowledge that spiritual discernment is not some supernatural ethereal gift from the heavens to understand a mystery called 'the Spirit', but is obvious, reasonable and understandable because it is love and works done out of love.
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Hiya,
It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.
There also seems to be an unscriptural view of what the spirit of God is and what exactly is the knowledge of God and Jesus.
That is why I questioned previously the origin of many of this forum, because much of what I see has nothing to do with Christianity, what Jesus taught, what the disciples taught; and much to do with what men who claimed to be of the church many years later had taught and imagined.
Jesus rebuked the imaginations of the Pharisee and the Scribes; I do not doubt for one moment he would rebuke our imaginations also.
:boyheart: :girlheart:
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Hiya,
It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.
There also seems to be an unscriptural view of what the spirit of God is and what exactly is the knowledge of God and Jesus.
That is why I questioned previously the origin of many of this forum, because much of what I see has nothing to do with Christianity, what Jesus taught, what the disciples taught; and much to do with what men who claimed to be of the church many years later had taught and imagined.
Jesus rebuked the imaginations of the Pharisee and the Scribes; I do not doubt for one moment he would rebuke our imaginations also.
:boyheart: :girlheart:
Hi YY
What Seems or appears is not what always is, for what you may see today may just become a different understanding tomorrow, Just be careful you dont cast stones YY :icon_flower:
So the 70's in the US was a spiritual move?
Spirit truth is not obvious to the natural (carnal) mind. If it were, then spiritual things would not need be discerned. Was Peter operating out of love when Annanias and Saphira approached him with deceit in their hearts?
To say that walking in love is walking in spirit for me is just inaccurate. There does seem to be a warring going with people between spiritual and physcical. Those who are opposed to the spiritual perspective seem to operate out of the notion that everything must be taken literally and a spiritual point of view won't fit that agenda because there "must" be proof. Those that are spiritual but opposed to literal, are taken as ones who desire to "create" their own point of view with no foundation.
For me, the best way I see what being "spiritual" is, comes from Peter's first revelation from God as to who Jesus was. The revelation began with a question about "men" (external opinions . . . the result of natural reasoning of men by way of outward observations) and who do "they" say that Christ is. And there are as many different opinions as there are people. Because their deductions were a result of natural reasoning.
But then the emphasis changed when Jesus made it personal. "Who do "YOU" say that I am." For me, that is the difference between the two. One is external observation, the other is internal. That's why the wheat and tares was such a frustrating topic as well. Some observe and apply things to "men" while others apply things to "me", or "man".
I agree that God is love, and God is spirit . . .which in natural deduction would then say that love is spirit . .but that just doesn't fit. I've got a 16 year old daughter that is head over heels in love with her boyfriend . . .but to say she's in God with her boyfriend just doesn't fit.
God is love, and love manifests both in spirit and in flesh. But spirit is not love anymore than flesh is lust. I am a spirit that has a soul, that lives in this shell of a body. Love is "in" me, but my spirit is not love. It's just the receptical from which love flows through.
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Hiya,
It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.
Well, truth be known, there is no "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
1Co 2:14 Now
the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
It is actually the soulish man who is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God. The "soul" in Greek is "psuche" where "soulish" is "psuchikos" which is the adjectival form of the noun "psuche". It is the man who is guided by the soul or feelings and senses who cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God.
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 08:26:54 PM
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Hiya,
It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.
Well, truth be known, there is no "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
It is actually the soulish man who is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God. The "soul" in Greek is "psuche" where "soulish" is "psuchikos" which is the adjectival form of the noun "psuche". It is the man who is guided by the soul or feelings and senses who cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God.
yup :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
yup :icon_flower:
yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
yup :icon_flower:
yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes. :thumbsup:
do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the WISDOM WHICH is also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.
If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:
Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and
lie not against the truth. Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly,
sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is]
confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 09:48:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
yup :icon_flower:
yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes. :thumbsup:
do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the WISDOM WHICH is also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.
If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:
Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Taffy, Interesting you quoted James 3:15. In the Concordant Literal it is:
Jam 3:15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial,
soulish, demoniacal. "
Also, the old man is dead as you say. Just like "let those dead [to God] bury the [literal] dead." The new man lives [to God] as if alive from the dead. Those who like like a new man will live as if they really are resurrected from the dead as a life of the fruit of the spirit.
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 10:23:45 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 09:48:06 PM
Quote from: Tony N on January 08, 2009, 09:27:41 PM
Quote from: Taffy on January 08, 2009, 08:31:11 PM
yup :icon_flower:
yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes. :thumbsup:
do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the WISDOM WHICH is also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.
If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:
Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Taffy, Interesting you quoted James 3:15. In the Concordant Literal it is:
Jam 3:15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
Also, the old man is dead as you say. Just like "let those dead [to God] bury the [literal] dead." The new man lives [to God] as if alive from the dead. Those who like like a new man will live as if they really are resurrected from the dead as a life of the fruit of the spirit.
Tony the whole reason I quoted James , Bolded and underlined the WORD sensual is because I knew it was the same WORD you QUOTED on Bro, Then shared some from there, seems Fire has mentioned some on it too :icon_flower:
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 06:55:46 PM
I acknowledge that spiritual discernment is not some supernatural ethereal gift from the heavens to understand a mystery called 'the Spirit', but is obvious, reasonable and understandable because it is love and works done out of love.
One of the greater understandings I gained from my own life was to apply love to something first. So I do not disagree in concept here.
Heres my perspective, I do think spiritual discernment is given by God when he sees fit, it is not something that we just learn how to do or can teach how to do.
The problem is that this phrase "spiritual discernment" is what is used as a weapon by people to promote their superiority. It is very subtle in some cases, or in some cases it is blatent in arguments where a Christians nonsense is confronted so then being unable to answer the confrontation reasonably they just put out that phrase as if they have such greater knowledge than the other person and it becomes a put down. Very Very subtle disguise.
I am not accusing anyone, directly or indirectly here, its just how it is because as much as we wish to have that spiritual enlightenment, it can be a euphoric feeling to think we have been given special revelation. We can all fall prey to that feeling.
When I think I have some spiritual revelation I have found I must be very careful, I do not want to put anyone down or cause them to feel bad because that has not happened to them. I do though know that it is not about what we do in order to invoke this discernment, it is not of us. I know that everyone will get that discernment at some point or another and that is what I want to tell people the most about.
There are things that I think have been spiritual and later realized I was the one decieved.
Yikes, Yunni, you may get blasted for that one . .
At any rate, I would like to clarify just a bit and say that I do believe the mind does play a huge role. But there's an order to it. Because it doesn't have the capacity to comprehend spiritual things on it's own merit, my view is that the mind of me needs to be put in captivity while my spirit can receive truth from God's spirit . .and then, "that" truth get's planted into the womb of my mind and life begins to take form from there.
The mind does play a role, just not at the conception of when truth is introduced . . .
Agreed Taf...I was just thinking again about us being careful how we post, remembering that things are "in my opinion, as I understand it, I think, that's how I see it, etc."...and unless it's blatantly anti-scriptural, and/or including getting into areas that Gary has said are no-no's, IMO, state our opinion, reason and discuss a little, and move on...we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God.... :thumbsup:
Well sis, as I said, we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God....I understand what you're saying...I struggle with similar things...knowing when to shut up, curbing a bad attitude, on and on....God's growing us, and sometimes it hurts...but it's all for the best. God's blessing, James.
QuoteTaffy, I can see you are a moderator. TonyN who has publically already admitted he only makes replies to start a fight.
Did I admit that?
I believe it is disrespectful to the spirit of Christ to purposely start fights with anyone.
Anyway, in keeping with the purpose of this thread . . .
The two professors, one believes in ET and the other UR. Both know Greek.
One said they may know Greek but one may know more than the other.
Another stated it may have to do with maturity.
Another stated it has to do with what God gives a person.
Another stated that it was God who conceals a matter.
Another stated that it is God Who puts obscurity in man's hearts.
What do you think?
They're right.
uh . . . yup :icon_flower:
Hi YY
If ya wish, Take what you Posted ,which Ive now deleted Up with Tony privately
Your post too Tony has been deleted
Please spare me any pms . :icon_flower:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:57:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 09, 2009, 03:37:43 AM
Agreed Taf...I was just thinking again about us being careful how we post, remembering that things are "in my opinion, as I understand it, I think, that's how I see it, etc."...and unless it's blatantly anti-scriptural, and/or including getting into areas that Gary has said are no-no's, IMO, state our opinion, reason and discuss a little, and move on...we're all in the process of learning and being taught by God.... :thumbsup:
Your right I agree Jabacat, I appologize for any offenses I might have caused and for taking the conversation further then it needed to go, or even saying anything at all ...working on not caring as much and self control in regards to entering into certain discussions, I know better and still do it thanks for your understanding and patience with us :grin:
Hiya Fireinfolding,
There were some misunderstandings, as I read through our further conversation.
There were too many points with their own individual cognitive understandings all bundled up too quickly on both our parts.
However, I apologize to you, since there was a obvious misunderstanding in the beginning of our conversation.
The value of knowledge, fact, results in understanding.
Therefore there is no secrets concerning the Gospel that God has not already made plain to all mankind to see.
The fact is, there are secrets between you and God, and if you want to call that mystical Christianity, then I accept that definition for that relationship.
If you can take time to understand, we have lived in an apostate Christianity which has denied us the truth that so easily comes by our senses to question their tactics and teaching.
We were taught that if we jaywalked and died, we would go to Hell because we broke the rules.
Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning God's mercy and grace.
We were told that Hell was infinite and deep in the heart of a molten metal core.
Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning God's character.
We were taught that if we did not have 100% covering with water that our baptism was not valid, and even that water baptism was essential to our salvation.
Despite what logic and reason dictates, we are saved by the baptism of His Son.
We are told every day in the apostate Church that logic and reason is of the carnal mind which is not of God.
Despite what logic and reason dictates concerning the difference between the mind of a man focused on self, and the mind of a man focused on the things above.
The truth is what sets a person free and the truth is logical and reasonable.
The knowledge of God and Jesus Christ empowers us to be what we are supposed to be and know what we are supposed to know.
If for any reason I offended you by my logic and reasoning, understand why I will not back down from logic and reason.
It is the thing that has fought against the corrupt church has been logic and reasoning which has it's mind set upon heavenly things: The Spiritual Minded.
I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.
The consequences of holding to archaic traditions of mystic was purposely done to keep the people in submission and fear, and not because that is the reality.
As I said though, the fact is, there are secrets between you and God, and if you want to call that mystical Christianity, then I accept that definition for that relationship.
Hope all is well with you.
:icon_king: :icon_queen:
Quote from: YYThe truth is what sets a person free and the truth is logical and reasonable.
The knowledge of God and Jesus Christ empowers us to be what we are supposed to be and know what we are supposed to know.
If for any reason I offended you by my logic and reasoning, understand why I will not back down from logic and reason.
It is the thing that has fought against the corrupt church has been logic and reasoning which has it's mind set upon heavenly things: The Spiritual Minded.
I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.
The consequences of holding to archaic traditions of mystic was purposely done to keep the people in submission and fear, and not because that is the reality.
Isn't he Wonderful?
Ask...Seek...Knock.. and he will lead us into all truth. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:37:26 AM
Im out its not worth it :grin:
Oh by the way Tony I thought it was YY who first brought up the soulish thing in relation to the natural man, and you then following to confirm it, either way I agreed but I wasnt paying attention to who I was quoting on that :grin: thats why I posted twice on it, apologies on that one for mistaking between the two. G caught it before I did (thanks G) :HeartThrob:
Hi FF I wasn't trying to correct either you or YY. I was just making a statement as to how I saw something about the natural man vs. the soulish man.
Sorry if anyone took me wrong.
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 07, 2009, 07:41:47 PM
That verse in Ecclesiastes you mentioned Tony carries that same concrete thought of eyes led to water, speaking of the horizon. When you look at the horizon those things seen there are indeed obscure. You cannot make out any details. Thanks for bringing out that verse. I have translated this verse this way:
He has also set the-horizon in their inner-guides, yet so that man can't find out the work that the Strongest-Yoked-Guide has done from the beginning even to the end. Ecc 3:11 Ron
:cloud9: THANK YOU so much for this, you have no idea what a blessing this was. :thumbsup: Blessings...
Quote from: YoungYuni on January 08, 2009, 03:12:28 AM
The pharisee and teachers of the Law were mystical and gnostic in their approach. They were not true purveyors of facts; nor did they have any desire to seek the Truth because it would strip them of all power.
Failure to understand this, is a mistake.
The pharisee and the teachers of the Law did not want to believe, and their hearts were hardened because of their unbelief. They did not want to believe the facts, and made up stories of their own to follow.
:cloud9: I don't know what you are basing your information on, but here is what they have always used as a principle for studying scripture. It is well known in Jewish circles, and this particular quote is from a Messianic rabbi.
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES which stands for PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning, REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper, DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc and SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text."
:cloud9: In addition to that, Paul said though I know ALL MYSTERIES...and there are other scriptures that mention mystery or mysteries. So I consider Paul to be the premiere example of a "mystical Christian", particularly since what He was taught of the mysteries was given to Him by the Spirit of the risen Lord not by the disciples who knew Him after the flesh, nor the imaginations of men, and certainly not by the devil.
Obviously there were Jews who went about establishing their own righteousness and it only got worse after Jesus came on the scene (out of bitterness and jealousy); much of the Talmud (which is not considered scripture) is proof of this. But to call THEM "mystical" is inaccurate, just as calling the other "branch" of them not mystical is also inaccurate, as the OT came through mystical experiences with God which is to say, through the Spirit in various ways.
John the Baptist's father was a levitical priest, and he certainly had a mystical experience with the authority of the Spirit of God, as did the devout man Simeon and the woman Anna in the temple at Jesus's presentation. The OT is full of such experiences, and what you fail to realize is that mystical experiences come with understanding, in all your getting, get understanding. The experience cannot be separated from the Spirit of Truth, because they are one and the same, therefore understanding is automatically present.
Understanding here is not as the carnal mind's understanding of a provable fact, but it itself is an attribute of the Spirit of God and is instantaneously deposited into the believer, as if it was something they had always known , ie. no thinking about it was necessary or even possible prior to receiving it, because it BYPASSES THE CARNAL MIND ALTOGETHER and goes directly into the spirit, and THEN is retrievable by the carnal mind, not the other way around.
Simply put, it is the culmination of union, as between a man/Spirit and his wife/soul = "child"/new LIFE. Just as we are not aware of the exact second of conception in the natural, so too are we unaware of the twinkling of an eye split second that the mystical experience brought understanding, for as soon as it happens, it produced new life. Blessings...
QuoteFireinfolding
You dont owe me an apology on that. You are offended at what I see the scriptures prove. Afterall it pretty much states "a meaningful Spiritual life in communion with God walking by the inner light" (I see as love). I actually see that as "walking in" the truth and less about the form of knowledge but more after a revelation of Christ in them. I dont regard it as an infiltration but as defined, more of a manifestion of Christ in them in the context of Christian mysticism. You can look for fault in everything or you can see the pure in most anything.
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Hiya!
No I am not offended by anything Scriptural or biblical or spiritual.
What you presented concerning Christian Mysticism is neither Scriptural or biblical or spiritual.
Therefore, do not speak on my behalf.
:thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Hiya!
This discussion was about how it was that two Greek scholars could have two different conclusions.
It isn't because of Mysticism; it is because the two Greek scholars, despite being scholars, having different levels of factual understanding and better comprehension for the truth as a result.
Nobody has been able to refute this claim with credibility and integrity.
Regardless if there are a few people who 'amen' one another, is not evidence or proof that one of the Greek scholars was chosen by God to understand while the other was not.
That is modified Calvinism made to fit a universal salvation message.
Calvinism is unsound and ungodly to it's core. Any modified form of this doctrine, is also unsound and ungodly to it's core.
The propositional conclusions based on facts concerning both the character and behavior of God does not support your conclusions.
#1. The carnal mind is the mind set on the things of man and not God.
#2. The spiritual mind is the mind set on the things of God and not man.
Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Galations 6:8
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called "LOGOS" in Scripture.
Logos is the Greek word for logic and reasoning.
Therefore logic and reasoning cannot be the carnal mind!
For me, this entire discussion has proved that most of many still do not understand or know what the Scriptures are talking about, have never had or thrown out sound doctrine and instruction concerning a godly life and have absolutely no sense when it comes to what the Spirit actually is.
:2c: :dontknow:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 11, 2009, 07:01:41 AM
Young Yunni had written
I still owe an apology to you, because I am offended by the notion of a mystical Christianity still infiltrating the knowledge of the truth.
Fireinfolding's comment
You dont owe me an apology on that. You are offended at what I see the scriptures prove
Thats not speaking on YOUR behalf :grin: :grin:
Titus 1:10-12
10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.
13-14The day when Jesus made the mud and healed the man was a Sabbath. So the people took the man to the Pharisees. 15They asked him how he was able to see, and he answered, "Jesus made some mud and smeared it on my eyes. Then after I washed it off, I could see."
16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man Jesus doesn't come from God. If he did, he would not break the law of the Sabbath."
Others asked, "How could someone who is a sinner work such a miracle?" Since the Pharisees could not agree among themselves, 17they asked the man, "What do you say about this one who healed your eyes?"
"He is a prophet!" the man told them.
18But the Jewish leaders would not believe that the man had once been blind. They sent for his parents 19and asked them, "Is this the son that you said was born blind? How can he now see?"
20The man's parents answered, "We are certain that he is our son, and we know that he was born blind. 21But we don't know how he got his sight or who gave it to him. Ask him! He is old enough to speak for himself."
22-23The man's parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. The leaders had already agreed that no one was to have anything to do with anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah.
24The leaders called the man back and said, "Swear by God to tell the truth! We know that Jesus is a sinner."
25The man replied, "I don't know if he is a sinner or not. All I know is that I used to be blind, but now I can see!"
26"What did he do to you?" the Jewish leaders asked. "How did he heal your eyes?"
27The man answered, "I have already told you once, and you refused to listen. Why do you want me to tell you again? Do you also want to become his disciples?" :laughing7:
28The leaders insulted the man and said, "You are his follower! We are followers of Moses. 29We are sure that God spoke to Moses, but we don't even know where Jesus comes from."
30"How strange!" the man replied. "He healed my eyes, and yet you don't know where he comes from. 31We know that God listens only to people who love and obey him. God doesn't listen to sinners. 32And this is the first time in history that anyone has ever given sight to someone born blind. 33Jesus could not do anything unless he came from God."
34The leaders told the man, "You have been a sinner since the day you were born! Do you think you can teach us anything?" Then they said, "You can never come back into any of our meeting places!"
35When Jesus heard what had happened, he went and found the man. Then Jesus asked, "Do you have faith in the Son of Man?"
36He replied, "Sir, if you will tell me who he is, I will put my faith in him."
37"You have already seen him," Jesus answered, "and right now he is talking with you."
38The man said, "Lord, I put my faith in you!" Then he worshiped Jesus.
39Jesus told him, "I came to judge the people of this world. I am here to give sight to the blind and to make blind everyone who can see."
40When the Pharisees heard Jesus say this, they asked, "Are we blind?"
41Jesus answered, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty. But now that you claim to see, you will keep on being guilty."
--John 9
Young Yuni said; "The propositional conclusions based on facts concerning both the character and behavior of God does not support your conclusions.
#1. The carnal mind is the mind set on the things of man and not God.
#2. The spiritual mind is the mind set on the things of God and not man.
Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "
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:cloud9: I think I see how you arrived at your conclusion, but this translation you used is off just enough to corrupt it's meaning. KJV: To be carnally minded is death, to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Notice the subtle difference?
Your version implies that there is ONE mind that can be set on either man or God, and thus solving the problem, as opposed to their being TWO minds, ie. the carnal mind AND the mind of Christ, which is Spirit.
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Young Yuni said, " Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called "LOGOS" in Scripture.
Logos is the Greek word for logic and reasoning.
Therefore logic and reasoning cannot be the carnal mind!"
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:cloud9: Logos was a word first used by a Greek philosopher in 600 BC, "to designate the divine (and I'm sure he didn't mean THE divine God) reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe, as it relates to the order and progression of things in the universe", thus the word's slant and usage towards Helenistic philosophy. Since the NT was written in Greek, the language of the day, they had to communicate with what they had.
Rhema is the equivalent word in the Hebrew, and it means a word SPOKEN, a living word, ie. His breath/Spirit, as opposed to a thought that originated in the minds of men.
Thus it is written;
I Corinthians 19 - For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom (natural wisdom = logic and reasoning of the carnal minds of men) KNEW NOT GOD, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
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Young Yuni said; "For me, this entire discussion has proved that most of many still do not understand or know what the Scriptures are talking about, have never had or thrown out sound doctrine and instruction concerning a godly life and have absolutely no sense when it comes to what the Spirit actually is."
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:cloud9: Let's talk about sound doctrine for a minute. The word sound means healthy, whole, NOT CORRUPTED. So doctrine that is sound, is something that makes us whole or COMPLETE, as in one with the Head (which entails being "beheaded" that the mind of Christ might have rulership over the body). We are not seeking to be one with a natural Head of flesh and blood.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Sound doctrine is also something that is not corrupted. The Word that is Spirit/rhema is corrupted by the carnal minds of men, when it is grasped and brought "down" by the carnal nature of "Jacob", which means, "heelcatcher", into something that can be handled and touched, ie. seen only with the senses/carnal mind as opposed to being seen with the mind of Christ.
An interesting witness to this is in an unexpected place;
Acts 27:27 - But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country; 28 And SOUNDED, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms. 29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.
There are many things I could bring out on this, but I will stick with sounded for now. The word there means to cast or throw, sound for distance, and was here inferring to throwing something heavy overboard with a line attached to measure the depth of the water. Obviously, the closer they got to land/earth/flesh, the shallower the water/Spirit. Conversely, the father away they got from land/earth/flesh, the deeper the water/Spirit.
This word used here is also close in meaning to another word for throw which is ballo, and if you add the prefix para on that, you get the word for parable. So when Jesus was putting forth his parables, He was SOUNDING to see how "deep" the "waters" were around Him. The Pharisees, who clung to the logos/written Word, thinking in THEM, they had life or Spirit, were quite taken aback by the One who IS life, and IS Spirit, for from henceforth we'll not know Him after the flesh (or logos/letter) but after the Spirit/rhema/Word. Blessings...
PS. The word there also means to throw a dart or javelin, which brings to mind about the fiery darts of the wicked one. So another truth to be gleaned out of this is that the water quenches the fiery darts. So the deeper the water, the darts never have a chance to hit the flesh of one who is in Christ/Spirit.