They Know Greek Too

[Tony N]

Another thing to keep in mind that has already been somewhat touched on, is that we are all products of our education to some extent.
Most people take what they are taught at face value rather than searching it out on their own. Chances are, the professor who believes in ET was taught aion (and other words) meant a certain thing by others who believed in ET and he never really bothered to check it out for himself. If the only "authorities" on the subject he ever read say that aion means eternal, for example, and he never seriously considered the dissenting position, then that's the side of the fence he's going to come down on.

Yes, and how many people, profs included were duped by Vine's work and other's work on aion/aionios?
What a shame. Yet this too is of God for Pro 25:2 "It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter."

[Tony N]

You know Tony I had thought the same, not sure bro because even if any of us had ALL knowledge (even the knowing of ALL the mysteries/secrets themselves) these are still listed as those things that are tossed into seeing "In part" category.

I definately think its "a start" in "tasting and SEEING the Lord is good bro.  Sorta like enough to propell us to the finish line to see Him as He is where the two become one in nature (or like God). By that I dont mean to "be like God in some self exaltation fashion" but be like Him (Who is most merciful). Its like "getting what that means" and what HE desires to be toward US and what HE desires from US in relation to others (being an extension of His nature in this world) His hands and feet. Im certainly not there yet but what a beautiful thing to be a part of... to be made perfect in love and the extension of it to others. Sure would be great to walk in Him so perfectly, to be a master of "that" would be something else.

Hugs  :HeartThrob:

fireinfolding, you will get your wish to the fullest when God is ALL in ALL (1 Cor.15:28). All that God is: love, joy, peace, patience etc. we will be. We will see Him as He is for we shall be like Him.

[Nathan]

Another thing to keep in mind that has already been somewhat touched on, is that we are all products of our education to some extent.
Most people take what they are taught at face value rather than searching it out on their own. Chances are, the professor who believes in ET was taught aion (and other words) meant a certain thing by others who believed in ET and he never really bothered to check it out for himself. If the only "authorities" on the subject he ever read say that aion means eternal, for example, and he never seriously considered the dissenting position, then that's the side of the fence he's going to come down on.

Yes, and how many people, profs included were duped by Vine's work and other's work on aion/aionios?
What a shame. Yet this too is of God for Pro 25:2 "It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter."

Tony you got some KILLER verses today!  :grin:  Both ways Tony, the Bereans investigating the matter in relation to what they have been told (Nobel Character/ Glory of Kings) and I thought another thing was too kool in relation to the verse you posted, my version uses the word THING (like that matters right?)  :grin:

But this is kool see this as pertaining somewhat to whats obscured and what becomes clear

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Luke 1:32 that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Phem 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is **in you** in Christ Jesus

Christ IN YOU

Thought that was Kool cause God also hid these things in Christ and I got a big chuckle out of God calling him a THING or HOLY THING which we are to grow up into.

Though we can investigate a matter (or a thing) by searching it out, Christs words were ye SEARCH the sciptures (even as the Nobel bereans were commending in doing) but these testify OF me  :grin:

Isaiah 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

And of Christ

Col 2:3 In whom **are hid** all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

He is the treasure in this earthen vessel

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

2Cr 3:13 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

You can go on and, He so rocks this world dont He?  :grin: Wow!! How GREAT is our Our God? Too awesome to contain the joy over Him thats for sure  :bigGrin:

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; (fruitfulness) and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Seems to be something a stirring . . . hear the rustling of the leaves?  Seasons are changing.  Where there used to be a great bounty in the church is becoming a dried up riverbed . . . those who see themselves as the kings which God declared them to be are on the ready to begin to manifest his authority and take the land (inheritance) that's been promised to us.

[Taffy]

Speaking of "rustling of leaves" you must have had a word whispered in your ear here  :grin: I just had the hugest wind storm blow in not too long ago and all my power in my home is out right now save the few minutes left on my laptop  :grin:

I'll be sitting i the dark shortly (though thank God its still light out)  :grin:

Amen Nat

Hey Girl

just read ya pm....wheres ya candles? :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Speaking of "rustling of leaves" you must have had a word whispered in your ear here  :grin: I just had the hugest wind storm blow in not too long ago and all my power in my home is out right now save the few minutes left on my laptop  :grin:

I'll be sitting i the dark shortly (though thank God its still light out)  :grin:

Amen Nat

Hey Girl

just read ya pm....wheres ya candles? :icon_flower:

Taff, the second you posted my power came back on  :grin: No lie, just a second ago I hear my stereo kick on.

I got me some killer 100 hour candles though all is kool  :grin:

:HeartThrob:

Well Im glad ya Not left in  the dark cos I know where ya Live....Whens T home?

[YoungYuni]

But the principle is the same.  Knowledge is not truth in the sense that truth is a person, not just an accumulation of facts.  My point was that the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . and yet they couldn't recognize it as it stood before their eyes.

And that still applies to me as well.  I've said this before somewhere else, but it's true here as well.  It's not about knowing "about" God.  It's about living "in" Him and He in me.

Very good Nathan.
Peter basically had the same understanding as you:

1Pe 1:11 searching into what or what manner of era the spirit of Christ in them made evident, when testifying beforehand to the sufferings pertaining to Christ and the glories after these."

David had the spirit of Christ in him as did the prophets. Had they been alive when Christ came they surely would have known Him since they had His spirit.

Hiya!

Speaking of Peter, why not read other things Peter had wrote?

Let us find out how one acknowledges the Truth?

2 Peter 1:2-11
2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge;
6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness;
7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.
8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What amazing words Peter gives... ...all this comes through our KNOWLEDGE of Him.

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

The reason why one Greek Scholar cannot acknowledge the knowledge of the truth, and another does. Is because one has the knowledge of Him, the other does not.

It is very simple and straight forward and does not take a supernaturally empowered spirit filled guru to reveal this.

I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.

If you do not know who Jesus is, you lack the knowledge to acquire the truth.

To say that, "Scribes and Saducees spent their lives dividing the word of Truth . . ."

It is not a fact.

To say that, "It's not about knowing "about" God.  It's about living "in" Him and He in me."

Is a misnomer and a presumptive statement which distorts what is actually fact versus myth.

Read what Peter said...through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord and through our knowledge of him

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

The pharisees and scribes did not believe the facts to even interpret what is true in the first place. They were blind by their denial of Him.

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

The pharisee and teachers of the Law were mystical and gnostic in their approach. They were not true purveyors of facts; nor did they have any desire to seek the Truth because it would strip them of all power.

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

The pharisee and the teachers of the Law did not want to believe, and their hearts were hardened because of their unbelief. They did not want to believe the facts, and made up stories of their own to follow.

Failure to understand this, is a mistake.

Mystical Christianity is satanic and of the devil, empowering ego's and enabling pride to overlord one another.

The world has no use for such hypocrites and liars, even among Christianity.

These people were the Pharisee and Teachers of the Law, whom Jesus rebuked and cursed. Those who have a mind of mysticism, are under the same rebuke and curse.

They are blind, hardened and set down a path of destruction and will not acknowledge it because of their denial and unbelief.

:bottlebump: :bdh:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya Fireinthefolding!

I understand your confusion of this issue. I ask you not to confuse it any longer.

So theres no spiritual meaning (or spiritual reality)?  or if there is its evil?

Who said if there is, that it is evil?

Certainly not I, so why would this even be considered?

There is spiritual meaning and spiritual reality, but it is not mystical in any sense or evil.

It is quite apparent to the sense and obvious to the intelligence.

Something not apparent to the senses or obvious to the natural man maybe...? is evil?

Galations 5:19-26
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

1 Corinthians 15:33-35
33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Colossians 1:9-11
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully.

It is completely obvious. People need to come back to their senses!

It is not a mystery.

Having communion with God? Is evil?

No it is not evil; nor is it a mystery.

And an inner experience of light? Is evil?

No it is not evil; nor is it a mystery.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

It is very obvious, there is no mystery.

To the people have made it a mystical experience, it is quite obvious they are in fact lost and blind taking leave of their senses and now are held captive to do the will of the devil.

The devil, who has been a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Religion, mysticism, legalism, etc, all lies meant to hide oneself from the knowledge of the truth.

:icon_king: :icon_queen:

[YoungYuni]

Its that which is mystical YOU diss that HAS some kind of spiritual reality.

Hiya!

There is no such thing as Mystical Christianity!

Thanks!

:cloud9: :gangel:

P.S. Technically there is, so when I say there is no such thing, what I mean to say is that it is not of God. In the same way when I speak of Religion, I am not talking about James sarcasm to those who claim to have religion.

You know what? Let us see what James has to say about it:

James 1:19-27
19My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror
24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

James was pretty clear about it. There is no mysticism, or mystery there.

James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

:gangel: :mblush:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

You may want to be clearer since what I see here is nothing but your attempt to make a fight.

The reality is it matters not if you like my approach. That is just an excuse you hold in order not to understand what it is I am saying.

If you are the one who recognizes this approach, regardless of how it is, then it is up to you to respond in a godly manner regardless any approach.

1 Peter 3:15-16
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

So let me ask you some questions, rhetorically you do not need to answer them.

Do you hold to a Christian Mysticism?

That is, are you a Christian Mystic and claim that there is a spiritual mystery that nobody knows but a select few?

Do you believe that you are more special than someone else, simply because God chose you over the other guy to have this mystery revealed?

If you answer "yes" to any of those questions, then you do not know God because it is the desire of God that all mankind shall know the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4-6
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

This testimony given in its proper time, is not speaking of some future event unknown and mysterious.

He had already given himself as a ransom for all mankind, the testimony given in its proper time 2000 years ago.

Hebrews 4:6-8
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you listen to his voice, do not harden your hearts."

That phrase "listen to" or sometimes written as the word "hear" is:

akouō

1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understand

So when was that proper time of His Testimony?

It is today, and is not for some but for all mankind.

How does faith come?

It is not some mysterious spiritual experience, it comes by hearing and hearing by the Word.

Romans 10:16-18
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Therefore, if at any time someone does not know God and Jesus; if at any time someone does not have the knowledge of Him; consequently, it is because they have chosen not to listen and because of this fact they become dull.

The only ones who find mystery in the knowledge of God; the only ones who do not retain the knowledge of God, are those who have turned their eyes away from Him and are hardened by their denial and unbelief.

1 Timothy 6:20-21
20Guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,
21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

Romans 1:18-21
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

A person's mind is made futile, and their heart darkened and hardened by a a person's choice to disbelieve, deny and reject the knowledge of the truth, not because the knowledge of the truth is some cosmic spiritual mystery.

:2c:  :dontknow:

P.S. Now if this is all a misunderstanding, you should probably communicate that rather than going off making a mountain from an ant hill.


:thumbdown:

[YoungYuni]

I looked at your verses but there was not a single verse relative to anything we are discussing regarding your slander of a meaningful (spiritual walk) in union with God (as defined by the word mysticism). There was nothing of the devil in a meaningful Spiritual walk with God

Hiya!

I did not slander anyone who has a union with God. Mysticism, as you defined it, is not godly in any manner.

1 a: having a spiritual meaning or reality  that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence <the mystical food of the sacrament>

A spiritual meaning and reality is apparent to the senses and obvious to the intelligence.

b: involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality  <the mystical experience of the Inner Light>

A direct communion with God is not subjective, it is completely objective.

There is not one person who has superiority over another in any subjective manner concerning a communion with God or an ultimate reality.

2: mysterious , unintelligible

As demonstrated above and continually to you. God, Jesus and the knowledge of the truth is not mysterious or unintelligible, except to those who have ran from their senses and have rejected the knowledge of the truth in favor of their own reality.

I slander none who have an objective communion with God, since it is quite obvious they do because a true person of faith is justified by their works since it is the evidence of the Faith which justified them in the first place.

Even Jesus said, we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears.

Even Paul said, we are created to walk in good works.

Even James said, genuine faith is accompanied by works.

Even Peter said, we have abundance through the knowledge of God and Jesus with the power for anything through our knowledge of Him.

To say otherwise is not supported by an testimony, spiritual, scriptural or otherwise.

I am quite firm in what I said, do not make the mistake of misunderstanding it.

If you think you have been revealed a mystery that is not apparent and made obvious to anyone else, then you deceive yourself.

You speak of natural man and carnal man.

It is the natural and carnal man who claims there is a mystery that that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence, is subjective to that specific individual, and mysterious , unintelligible.

Come to your senses and recognize what kind of person that is.

Galatians 6:4-7
4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else,
5for each one should carry his own load.

6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

If you cannot be reasonable in your response, do not respond. I will not be reading it.

:2c: :msealed:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.

I think I understand where you are coming from and it is hard to pinpoint sometimes when someone is trying to make themselves appear at a higher level than others.

However, there is as aspect of spiritual discernment that must be acknowledged,  how would you view this verse?

1C 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Nathan]

It seems to me, what kicked off this whole thing was the "idea" that I implied revelation is more important than knowledge.  The verses posted immediately after my post dealt with Peter's reference to "knowledge of God" as proof that knowledge is just as much a role as revelation.

I'm not going to add any more to what Kim has already stated . . . I couldn't agree with her more on every level.  My point was, is, and will always be the fact that relying on my own knowledge gets me no where.  It is from Scripture that I came to realize that.  Spirit inspired it to be written . . .only Spirit can reveal the depths of it's meanings.  Jesus himself told Peter that flesh and blood can not teach you the revelation of Jesus, that only comes from the Father . . .which can only happen when there's a relationship with the Father.

There are many mysteries in Scripture.  the parables that Jesus uses as everyday language were each a mystery to those listening, and many still reading.  Yes, there are many things in Scripture that are hidden.  They are buried for those willing to dwell "in" Truth as opposed to others who use Truth for their own advancement.  It's not about one being special over another.  It's there for all to receive.  But if you go in being led by your head and not your heart, all you're going to come back with is a bunch of facts and arguments.  But if you go in being led by the spirit, you'll come back with life, light and most important . . Love.

My intent was never to imply that I think I'm above anyone.  My intent was to share what I see and let others expound more on what I share so that both I and others can feed from each other in the things of Christ.  Again, just because one can not see what the other is saying, doesn't mean either person is wrong . . . they're just in different places of relationship with the Father.  Not closer or further away . .higher or lower . .just simply different.

This is all I'll say on the matter.  It's not for me to defend really.

[Taffy]

Again, just because one can not see what the other is saying, doesn't mean either person is wrong . . . they're just in different places of relationship with the Father.  Not closer or further away . .higher or lower . .just simply different.

:icon_flower:

[Tony N]

"God gives to all life and breath and ALL" (Paul to the Athenians Acts 17).

Notice that when Paul spoke of the resurrection they jeered him. So God did not give most of the Athenians the grace to see what Paul was speaking of.

Act 17:33 Thus Paul came out of their midst.
Act 17:34 Yet some men, being joined to him, believe, among whom were Dionysius, the Areopagite, also, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."

God gave understanding to those in Acts 17:34 who heard Paul.
Since God gives to all life and breath and all, it must be that anyone who sees the truth that it was given to them by God.

So we can't berate those who God has not given understanding to. It is just not their time yet.

[Nathan]

You are so right on so many levels bro!! :goodpost: :goodpost:

[Taffy]

"God gives to all life and breath and ALL" (Paul to the Athenians Acts 17).

Notice that when Paul spoke of the resurrection they jeered him. So God did not give most of the Athenians the grace to see what Paul was speaking of.

Act 17:33 Thus Paul came out of their midst.
Act 17:34 Yet some men, being joined to him, believe, among whom were Dionysius, the Areopagite, also, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."

God gave understanding to those in Acts 17:34 who heard Paul.
Since God gives to all life and breath and all, it must be that anyone who sees the truth that it was given to them by God.

So we can't berate those who God has not given understanding to. It is just not their time yet.

yup :icon_flower:

[YoungYuni]

I can only conclude people want to romanticize their perspectives and like to think there is some mystery formula or secret revelation of this.

I think I understand where you are coming from and it is hard to pinpoint sometimes when someone is trying to make themselves appear at a higher level than others.

However, there is as aspect of spiritual discernment that must be acknowledged,  how would you view this verse?

1C 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The Natural Man is not speaking of one who has the faculty of reasoning and understanding.

The Natural Man is speaking of the one who puts their self interest above anything else.

What is the Spirit of God?

It is Love.

What does it mean to spiritually discern something?

It means it must be interpreted by Love.

We are commanded by God to be a people of reason and understanding who puts aside their self interest and operates out of love.

That is the Spiritual Man.

I acknowledge that spiritual discernment is not some supernatural ethereal gift from the heavens to understand a mystery called 'the Spirit', but is obvious, reasonable and understandable because it is love and works done out of love.

:icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.

There also seems to be an unscriptural view of what the spirit of God is and what exactly is the knowledge of God and Jesus.

That is why I questioned previously the origin of many of this forum, because much of what I see has nothing to do with Christianity, what Jesus taught, what the disciples taught; and much to do with what men who claimed to be of the church many years later had taught and imagined.

Jesus rebuked the imaginations of the Pharisee and the Scribes; I do not doubt for one moment he would rebuke our imaginations also.

:boyheart: :girlheart:

[Taffy]

Hiya,

It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.

There also seems to be an unscriptural view of what the spirit of God is and what exactly is the knowledge of God and Jesus.

That is why I questioned previously the origin of many of this forum, because much of what I see has nothing to do with Christianity, what Jesus taught, what the disciples taught; and much to do with what men who claimed to be of the church many years later had taught and imagined.

Jesus rebuked the imaginations of the Pharisee and the Scribes; I do not doubt for one moment he would rebuke our imaginations also.

:boyheart: :girlheart:

Hi YY
What Seems or appears is not what always is, for what you may see today may just become a different understanding tomorrow, Just be careful you dont cast stones YY :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

So the 70's in the US was a spiritual move?

Spirit truth is not obvious to the natural (carnal) mind.  If it were, then spiritual things would not need be discerned.  Was Peter operating out of love when Annanias and Saphira approached him with deceit in their hearts?  

To say that walking in love is walking in spirit for me is just inaccurate.  There does seem to be a warring going with people between spiritual and physcical.  Those who are opposed to the spiritual perspective seem to operate out of the notion that everything must be taken literally and a spiritual point of view won't fit that agenda because there "must" be proof.  Those that are spiritual but opposed to literal, are taken as ones who desire to "create" their own point of view with no foundation.

For me, the best way I see what being "spiritual" is, comes from Peter's first revelation from God as to who Jesus was.  The revelation began with a question about "men" (external opinions . . . the result of natural reasoning of men by way of outward observations) and who do "they" say that Christ is.  And there are as many different opinions as there are people.  Because their deductions were a result of natural reasoning.  

But then the emphasis changed when Jesus made it personal.  "Who do "YOU" say that I am."  For me, that is the difference between the two.  One is external observation, the other is internal.  That's why the wheat and tares was such a frustrating topic as well.  Some observe and apply things to "men" while others apply things to "me", or "man".  

I agree that God is love, and God is spirit . . .which in natural deduction would then say that love is spirit . .but that just doesn't fit.  I've got a 16 year old daughter that is head over heels in love with her boyfriend . . .but to say she's in God with her boyfriend just doesn't fit.

God is love, and love manifests both in spirit and in flesh.  But spirit is not love anymore than flesh is lust.  I am a spirit that has a soul, that lives in this shell of a body.  Love is "in" me, but my spirit is not love.  It's just the receptical from which love flows through.

[Tony N]

Hiya,

It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.

Well, truth be known, there is no "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

It is actually the soulish man who is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God. The "soul" in Greek is "psuche" where "soulish" is "psuchikos" which is the adjectival form of the noun "psuche". It is the man who is guided by the soul or feelings and senses who cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God.

[Taffy]

Hiya,

It appears obvious that people here have a completely unscriptural view of the natural man and the spiritual man which I see to be the problem.

Well, truth be known, there is no "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

It is actually the soulish man who is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God. The "soul" in Greek is "psuche" where "soulish" is "psuchikos" which is the adjectival form of the noun "psuche". It is the man who is guided by the soul or feelings and senses who cannot receive those things which are of the spirit of God.

yup :icon_flower:

[Tony N]

yup :icon_flower:

yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes.  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

yup :icon_flower:

yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes.  :thumbsup:

do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the  WISDOM WHICH is  also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.

If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:

Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.


Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.


Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.


Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.


Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.


Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

[Tony N]

yup :icon_flower:

yup: three letters, one word, yet it speaks volumes.  :thumbsup:

do you see a connection Tony spoken in James concerning the Natural man who is from Beneath , relating the  WISDOM WHICH is  also Beneath, , Kinda Flesh and Spirit Dont Mix, hense Confusion By Mixing? ..or to be more simply these all apply to the Old and New C, which again DONT mix,...Pauls words, You are SPIRIT not Flesh ,for the Old man is DEAD and the NEW LIVES.

If Natural Man can not recieve the Things from ABOVE, I too see this Inrelation to the carnal Mind( Sarx) for it is ENMITY and to Be Carnal Minded is DEATH...for me they seem to all interact :icon_flower:

Jam 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Taffy, Interesting you quoted James 3:15. In the Concordant Literal it is:
Jam 3:15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "

Also, the old man is dead as you say. Just like "let those dead [to God] bury the [literal] dead." The new man lives [to God] as if alive from the dead. Those who like like a new man will live as if they really are resurrected from the dead as a life of the fruit of the spirit.