free will and annihilation

[sven]

this is something that makes me to think:

there is no immortal soul, the wages of sin is death
if people dont want to have eternal life, why should God force them to have eternal life?
people might have no free will, but if somebody just doesnt want eternal life, could God not accept this? - in fact maybe not, cause Jesus died for all and Gods wants everybody to be saved.

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

[jabcat]

Hi Brother Sven...interesting question...

I'd say because ultimately, God is in control; anything He allows is within the limits of His ultimate will (not necessarily perhaps always within His complete or perfect will...but His ultimate will);  and He said He is not willing that any should perish !!!!  :bowing:
He knows what's best;
He loves His creation, and His desire is to bring everything back to Himself...the spirit we all have in us came directly from God (would it be heresy to say it may even be a part of God?).  The breath we breathe was breathed into our nostrils by God...we are His creation, not our own, and He will have His will...we don't even know what's best for us...we are the creation, He is the Creator...

God said to Job;
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?  Tell Me, if you have understanding,  Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?  When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?  "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place,  "Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this."Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth?"   And marked out for it my bound, And set bars and doors,     And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further; And here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days began, And caused the dayspring to know its place; Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?     

Then Job answered the LORD and said,
"I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.


Wow!  Isn't that really Good News?

God's blessing, James.



(Mod note...TM family....let's please not take this into a "free will/sovereignty" vein...I trust the vast majority of us here can agree bottom line that God WILLS all men to be saved :thumbsup:)

[sven]

i like the book of Job, first Job wants to die, but then:

And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.  Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Sven... :hithere:

Note to Jabcat:  I am not endeavoring to make this a FREE WILL / SOVEREIGNTY debate bro... but certain LOGICAL things must be pointed out to Sven in order to answer his questions...  :thumbsup:

this is something that makes me to think:

there is no immortal soul, the wages of sin is death
if people dont want to have eternal life, why should God force them to have eternal life?

FIRST... FINITE (time-bound), men, who cannot see the INVISIBLE GOD, neither can they KNOW Him unless He reveals Himself to them, ...cannot (are not able to) make such a decision (that being: to NOT desire "ETERNAL" life)...

1.  because they do not comprehend ETERNAL (without beginning or end)...
2.  because they do not know what GOD is really like (complete HOLINESS)...
3.  because they do not have the capability of observing what ETERNAL life really is... (while existing within the confined parameters - of TIME)

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

HOLINESS is the state of SPIRITUAL HEALTH which is UNDEFILED... but the perceptions made by UNHOLY minds without the REVELATION of HOLINESS by GOD, shall be defective perceptions.

We observe PAINT or MUSICAL notes to be in our hands, as to what they shall or shall not become as a PAINTING or SONG... this is NOT a ...coincidence...

The CREATIVE aspects which come forth from Human Beings... follow the SAME format in the hand of the Human being (paint & musical notes), as do Human Beings in the HAND of THEIR CREATOR...

people might have no free will, but if somebody just doesnt want eternal life, could God not accept this? - in fact maybe not, cause Jesus died for all and Gods wants everybody to be saved.

This is (no offense to you), an assumption that GOD must (or even COULD) be REACTIVE to men (God "accepting" that men do not "want" eternal life)... 

Does a POT make any decisions about its formation?  Or about its resulting/finished created state?  Of course not... :mnah:  Does the POTTER (in CREATING the Pot/Clay) take into consideration, the "will" of the CLAY?  :dontknow:  ...of course NOT!

ALL decisions concerning the FORMATION of the POT are made by its MAKER...  Can CLAY actually "do" something that makes the Creator of CLAY, which decided the NATURE of that CLAY, its ingredients, properties and tendencies, ...cause that Creator question?  Again, ...of course not!  :mnah:

The WORD of God is an "owner's manual"... and it plainly states that the CLAY is shaped and at ALL TIMES is at the mercy, descretion and PURPOSE, of the Potter during its formation and subsequent conclusion... (Rom 9 / Jer 18:4)

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

Because that "person" was brought forth (its beginning) of the decision of GOD... therefore its destiny/conclusion, is therefore determined by GOD as well... For that (finite) CREATED entity, does not KNOW or UNDERSTAND, the (eternal) PURPOSE of its CREATOR -- for it... and is thereby much to UNINFORMED to make such a decision.

When this "person" is REVEALED as to the ETERNAL PURPOSE of that destiny and the LOVE and POWER of his/her Maker, he/she will have abandoned any thought that would propose that DESTINY be otherwise...

Peace be unto you Sven...  :HeartThrob:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:bgdance:  willieH   :bgdance:

[Paul Hazelwood]

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

I see this as a parent / child thing.   God is the sovereign Father and we are his children.

Do loving parents just honor any choice a child wishes to make?  I would think not.

Does the parent have knowledge that the child either does not posess or cannot comprehend?  Of course that is true.

Does not that make it acceptable for the parent to impose their will onto the childs?   IMO it does.

[YoungYuni]

Hiya!

A lack of understanding concerning what people actually will for themselves, is the biggest obstacle in your question, Sven.

Ultimately, as some use that word, God is all powerful, all knowing and all loving.

Ultimately, there is that word again, God has given us the ability to be aware of our own desires.

Ultimately, had to use it three times, mankind motivation of will is for self-preservation and survival.

Ultimately, I like that word, when you sort out all the psychological rhetoric, it is in the will of man always to do and be what is good for him.

Ultimately, heh heh heh, what is best for God concerning man is what is best concerning mankind.

Therefore, no man will ultimately choose annihilation when we have an all powerful, all knowing and all loving God doing the training to righteousness.

Peace and tranquility to your mind!

:icon_flower: :happy3:

[MacPherson]

this is something that makes me to think:

there is no immortal soul, the wages of sin is death
if people dont want to have eternal life, why should God force them to have eternal life?
people might have no free will, but if somebody just doesnt want eternal life, could God not accept this? - in fact maybe not, cause Jesus died for all and Gods wants everybody to be saved.

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

I see it that way too. Aside from UR, conditional immortality is the only thing that makes sense to me. But perhaps it only makes sense because I'm at present a mortal being. Sometimes I already feel like I've been alive forever, and I'm getting weary. To tell the truth eternity used to overwhelm me as a child. Not a thousand years, or million, or a billion, or one billion trillion, but for ever...

[YoungYuni]

Hiya!

The only reason someone would choose annihilation, is to escape a life of suffering.

The only reason a person would ever think or believe that they have lived for too long, is because they are in suffering.

Such reasoning works if a person never sees an end and so death would be the only escape.

Revelation 21:4
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

If what Revelation 21:4 says is true, who in their right mind would choose death?!

Nobody. Zero. Ziltch.

As I said previously,

Ultimately, it is in the will of man always to do and be what is good for him.

Ultimately, what God does for mankind is good for both Him and mankind.

Therefore the choice of death would be made because they do not wish to endure suffering any longer.

Now that we know one does not need to choose death to find an end to that suffering.

None will choose death to escape it.

Think about why a person would make any choice and actually go through it and see it for what it actually is.

God has given every man a choice, but there is only one choice any person will make once the knowledge of the truth has been revealed.

:icon_jokercolor: :icon_joker:

[ScarletWren]

yep,

Just gotta add my affirmation to what has been posted.  When everything that causes us pain, sorrow, depression, etc, has been removed from the universe, who would NOT want to spend eternity in joy, wonderful purpose, and I believe there is going to be a lot of activity that will be exciting and make us live for each moment.  We will have uninterrupted communion with the Father, who is life, how could anyone resist that or be unhappy?

Presently we just can't envision life having that much pleasure, and if we don't experience the sorrow first, how would we know that what we will enjoy then will be awesome?

I don't t hink this is a free will dilemma at all. 

[Nathan]

willieH: Hi Sven... :hithere:

Note to Jabcat:  I am not endeavoring to make this a FREE WILL / SOVEREIGNTY debate bro... but certain LOGICAL things must be pointed out to Sven in order to answer his questions...  :thumbsup:

this is something that makes me to think:

there is no immortal soul, the wages of sin is death
if people dont want to have eternal life, why should God force them to have eternal life?

FIRST... FINITE (time-bound), men, who cannot see the INVISIBLE GOD, neither can they KNOW Him unless He reveals Himself to them, ...cannot (are not able to) make such a decision (that being: to NOT desire "ETERNAL" life)...

1.  because they do not comprehend ETERNAL (without beginning or end)...
2.  because they do not know what GOD is really like (complete HOLINESS)...
3.  because they do not have the capability of observing what ETERNAL life really is... (while existing within the confined parameters - of TIME)

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

HOLINESS is the state of SPIRITUAL HEALTH which is UNDEFILED... but the perceptions made by UNHOLY minds without the REVELATION of HOLINESS by GOD, shall be defective perceptions.

We observe PAINT or MUSICAL notes to be in our hands, as to what they shall or shall not become as a PAINTING or SONG... this is NOT a ...coincidence...

The CREATIVE aspects which come forth from Human Beings... follow the SAME format in the hand of the Human being (paint & musical notes), as do Human Beings in the HAND of THEIR CREATOR...

people might have no free will, but if somebody just doesnt want eternal life, could God not accept this? - in fact maybe not, cause Jesus died for all and Gods wants everybody to be saved.

This is (no offense to you), an assumption that GOD must (or even COULD) be REACTIVE to men (God "accepting" that men do not "want" eternal life)... 

Does a POT make any decisions about its formation?  Or about its resulting/finished created state?  Of course not... :mnah:  Does the POTTER (in CREATING the Pot/Clay) take into consideration, the "will" of the CLAY?  :dontknow:  ...of course NOT!

ALL decisions concerning the FORMATION of the POT are made by its MAKER...  Can CLAY actually "do" something that makes the Creator of CLAY, which decided the NATURE of that CLAY, its ingredients, properties and tendencies, ...cause that Creator question?  Again, ...of course not!  :mnah:

The WORD of God is an "owner's manual"... and it plainly states that the CLAY is shaped and at ALL TIMES is at the mercy, descretion and PURPOSE, of the Potter during its formation and subsequent conclusion... (Rom 9 / Jer 18:4)

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

Because that "person" was brought forth (its beginning) of the decision of GOD... therefore its destiny/conclusion, is therefore determined by GOD as well... For that (finite) CREATED entity, does not KNOW or UNDERSTAND, the (eternal) PURPOSE of its CREATOR -- for it... and is thereby much to UNINFORMED to make such a decision.

When this "person" is REVEALED as to the ETERNAL PURPOSE of that destiny and the LOVE and POWER of his/her Maker, he/she will have abandoned any thought that would propose that DESTINY be otherwise...

Peace be unto you Sven...  :HeartThrob:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:bgdance:  willieH   :bgdance:

I really enjoyed this Willie.  I especially liked how you corellated it into the clay pots.  This really breaks it down into the simplist of terms for me.  I am but a vessel.  I've never been a supporter of free will (any more) but have seen how it can be a very sensitive issue with many.  But for me, this analogy you shared really nails it down well.

Great post.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: on that post too Willie. I love your analogies too, really makes it clear. You know where I stand on the sovereignty of the God. Blessings to you, glad to see you here again, posting.... :HeartThrob:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya,

:msealed:

lol

:laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hiya to you too.... :happygrin:

[CHB]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

[chuckt]

what do i do if i know im a piss pot?  :happy3:

chuckt

[Nathan]

Keep your lid down . . .women hate it when ya leave it up.

[YoungYuni]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

Hiya,

There is nothing being squelched except the truth of free will and those who believe in it.

To deny free will is to deny God is all powerful and to deny our relationship with Him.

To believe we are forced or designed without choice, denies relationship and fellowship.

:mblush: :mshock:

[CHB]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

Hiya,

There is nothing being squelched except the truth of free will and those who believe in it.

To deny free will is to deny God is all powerful and to deny our relationship with Him.

To believe we are forced or designed without choice, denies relationship and fellowship.

:mblush: :mshock:

Well, I see this the exact oposite. Sorry.  :happy3:

I will not post any more on this because the thread isn't suppose to turn into a free will dscussion.

CHB

[jabcat]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

Hiya,

There is nothing being squelched except the truth of free will and those who believe in it.

To deny free will is to deny God is all powerful and to deny our relationship with Him.

To believe we are forced or designed without choice, denies relationship and fellowship.

:mblush: :mshock:

Well, I see this the exact oposite. Sorry.  :happy3:

I will not post any more on this because the thread isn't suppose to turn into a free will dscussion.

CHB

Thanks CHB...I would like to refer everyone back to my original post in this thread, which I think leaves the possibility of nuances in beliefs, with the main idea of this thread being, will God allow anyone to choose to be lost forever/burned into ashes forever...if there are more comments along those lines, great, if not, I'll watch for a bit and lock it if it wanders away into areas Gary has banned.   And Bro Willi, I wasn't aiming the *Mod Note* at you specifically....you're doin' OK, bro!  :thumbsup:  God's blessing, James.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CHB... :hithere:

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

:ty: dear one...  :HeartThrob:

I just try my best to convey what I believe, the Lord has given me...

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:  willieH    :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:

[Doc]

Just to add; Tom Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God) does a really good job of explaining the whole "free will" factor in things, and what that really means. A lot of Universalists see 'free-will' as an obstacle to UR, but Talbott does a good job of showing why a sensible form of it is "necessary" for UR. A lot of the problem with the whole free will question as I see it, seems to be largely an issue of semantics; leading to erroneous teaching in the church that free will is something more than it really is.

Where I stand personally on the issue is similar to Talbott, and boils down to: our "free-will" must be limited to some extent; otherwise God is not sovereign, we are.

[jabcat]

Just to add; Tom Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God) does a really good job of explaining the whole "free will" factor in things, and what that really means. A lot of Universalists see 'free-will' as an obstacle to UR, but Talbott does a good job of showing why a sensible form of it is "necessary" for UR. A lot of the problem with the whole free will question as I see it, seems to be largely an issue of semantics; leading to erroneous teaching in the church that free will is something more than it really is.

Where I stand personally on the issue is similar to Talbott, and boils down to: our "free-will" must be limited to some extent; otherwise God is not sovereign, we are.

Good ending summary to the FW piece Doc  :thumbsup:...

I'd suggest a shift to the last piece of the OP title, "Annihilation" for our further discussion in this particular thread...I started to take the free will out of the title, but let's try to do it as is!  Thanks everyone...you're a great bunch of people!

[legoman]

willieH: Hi Sven... :hithere:

Note to Jabcat:  I am not endeavoring to make this a FREE WILL / SOVEREIGNTY debate bro... but certain LOGICAL things must be pointed out to Sven in order to answer his questions...  :thumbsup:

this is something that makes me to think:

there is no immortal soul, the wages of sin is death
if people dont want to have eternal life, why should God force them to have eternal life?

FIRST... FINITE (time-bound), men, who cannot see the INVISIBLE GOD, neither can they KNOW Him unless He reveals Himself to them, ...cannot (are not able to) make such a decision (that being: to NOT desire "ETERNAL" life)...

1.  because they do not comprehend ETERNAL (without beginning or end)...
2.  because they do not know what GOD is really like (complete HOLINESS)...
3.  because they do not have the capability of observing what ETERNAL life really is... (while existing within the confined parameters - of TIME)

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

HOLINESS is the state of SPIRITUAL HEALTH which is UNDEFILED... but the perceptions made by UNHOLY minds without the REVELATION of HOLINESS by GOD, shall be defective perceptions.

We observe PAINT or MUSICAL notes to be in our hands, as to what they shall or shall not become as a PAINTING or SONG... this is NOT a ...coincidence...

The CREATIVE aspects which come forth from Human Beings... follow the SAME format in the hand of the Human being (paint & musical notes), as do Human Beings in the HAND of THEIR CREATOR...

people might have no free will, but if somebody just doesnt want eternal life, could God not accept this? - in fact maybe not, cause Jesus died for all and Gods wants everybody to be saved.

This is (no offense to you), an assumption that GOD must (or even COULD) be REACTIVE to men (God "accepting" that men do not "want" eternal life)... 

Does a POT make any decisions about its formation?  Or about its resulting/finished created state?  Of course not... :mnah:  Does the POTTER (in CREATING the Pot/Clay) take into consideration, the "will" of the CLAY?  :dontknow:  ...of course NOT!

ALL decisions concerning the FORMATION of the POT are made by its MAKER...  Can CLAY actually "do" something that makes the Creator of CLAY, which decided the NATURE of that CLAY, its ingredients, properties and tendencies, ...cause that Creator question?  Again, ...of course not!  :mnah:

The WORD of God is an "owner's manual"... and it plainly states that the CLAY is shaped and at ALL TIMES is at the mercy, descretion and PURPOSE, of the Potter during its formation and subsequent conclusion... (Rom 9 / Jer 18:4)

but have you ever imagined a person, just dont want to have eternal life, why should this person not have the choice to choose eternal death?

Because that "person" was brought forth (its beginning) of the decision of GOD... therefore its destiny/conclusion, is therefore determined by GOD as well... For that (finite) CREATED entity, does not KNOW or UNDERSTAND, the (eternal) PURPOSE of its CREATOR -- for it... and is thereby much to UNINFORMED to make such a decision.

When this "person" is REVEALED as to the ETERNAL PURPOSE of that destiny and the LOVE and POWER of his/her Maker, he/she will have abandoned any thought that would propose that DESTINY be otherwise...

Peace be unto you Sven...  :HeartThrob:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:bgdance:  willieH   :bgdance:

Great post Willie.  100% agree!

[legoman]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

Hiya,

There is nothing being squelched except the truth of free will and those who believe in it.

To deny free will is to deny God is all powerful and to deny our relationship with Him.

To believe we are forced or designed without choice, denies relationship and fellowship.

:mblush: :mshock:

Hi YY,

Think of it this way.  We do have choices.  God doesn't need to force us to do anything, because he can set up circumstances and environment so that we will choose to do exactly what God intended.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

Hiya!

The only reason someone would choose annihilation, is to escape a life of suffering.

The only reason a person would ever think or believe that they have lived for too long, is because they are in suffering.

Such reasoning works if a person never sees an end and so death would be the only escape.

Revelation 21:4
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

If what Revelation 21:4 says is true, who in their right mind would choose death?!

Nobody. Zero. Ziltch.

As I said previously,

Ultimately, it is in the will of man always to do and be what is good for him.

Ultimately, what God does for mankind is good for both Him and mankind.

Therefore the choice of death would be made because they do not wish to endure suffering any longer.

Now that we know one does not need to choose death to find an end to that suffering.

None will choose death to escape it.

Think about why a person would make any choice and actually go through it and see it for what it actually is.

God has given every man a choice, but there is only one choice any person will make once the knowledge of the truth has been revealed.

:icon_jokercolor: :icon_joker:

Exactly!  Why do some people choose to commit suicide in this life?  Well there are probably many reasons, but mostly because they have lost all hope.

But who could reject life and choose eternal death when God reveals his love and glory plainly to someone?  Absolutely no one!  Everyone will have hope and joy when they see God for themselves.  Everyone will choose God - but each in their own time.

Cheers,
Legoman