free will and annihilation

[legoman]

willieH,

I always love your post on free will, God has blessed you with an ability to show who he is, who and what we are in relation to him. I think this is a very important topic. It is a shame it is squelched all the time. It reminds me of how universalism is squelched on all other Christians forums simply because most don't agree and don't want to deal with it. They think it is unimportant or something.

CHB

Yes it is a very important topic for understanding our purpose.  It is so very humbling once you realize how little "free" will you have - perhaps that is why many people are sensitive about it.

Your fellow "claypot",
Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

I think the difficulty here is you use an analogy of something that does not have a will at all.  

We do have a will,  it may not be independant of God, but God does not have to directly arrange our notes to get us where he intends us to be.


What about when our notes are evil, how is God not committing evil if he is directly arranging those evil notes?

[legoman]

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

I think the difficulty here is you use an analogy of something that does not have a will at all.   

We do have a will,  it may not be independant of God, but God does not have to directly arrange our notes to get us where he intends us to be.


What about when our notes are evil, how is God not committing evil if he is directly arranging those evil notes?

Well it does have an anology with God referring to us as clay pots (Romans 9).  We have a will in the same way that clay pots have a will, and in the same way that a painting or composition has a will.  ie. we barely have a will  :bigGrin: let alone a free will.

You could ask the same question of evil about clay pots:  If a claypot commits evil, how is it not God causing it?

And of course that is exactly what was asked of Paul in Romans 9
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h]
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

But perhaps we are treading too much into "free will" debate territory...

Cheers,
Legoman

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well it does have an anology with God referring to us as clay pots (Romans 9).  We have a will in the same way that clay pots have a will, and in the same way that a painting or composition has a will.  ie. we barely have a will  :bigGrin: let alone a free will.

I am not sure how it is the same, we either have a will or we do not.   There is more to the scripture depicting clay pots than just saying we are one.

You could ask the same question of evil about clay pots:  If a claypot commits evil, how is it not God causing it?

Yes, those are tough questions to deal with.  God being responsible for evil (isaiah) does not make him the one who committs it.   But if he directly grabs my arm, makes me pick up a gun and murder, then yes, God is then evil.   It is that fine line to see that makes fervent study important.

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h]
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What the scripture is saying is to teach us that no matter how much we resist, Gods will cannot be changed.  What it does NOT say is that we are prevented from talking back to God and experiencing what comes of that due to the ability for us to resist.

Does God take away our ability to resist?  No, he knows we will.  Can we change Gods plan by resisting or complaining or making plans in our own will?   No.

None of that prevents us from resisting, planning, complaining and even doing.

But perhaps we are treading too much into "free will" debate territory...

Perhaps, but I politely responded to a post, if everyone keeps it that way, there shouldn't be a problem.

[legoman]

Well it does have an anology with God referring to us as clay pots (Romans 9).  We have a will in the same way that clay pots have a will, and in the same way that a painting or composition has a will.  ie. we barely have a will  :bigGrin: let alone a free will.

I am not sure how it is the same, we either have a will or we do not.   There is more to the scripture depicting clay pots than just saying we are one.

I think Willie's post was very similar to the clay pot analogy that is used in Romans 9.  Yes we do have a will, there is no question, but is it truely free?  Free from circumstances, environment, influence?  Men change there mind, maybe hundreds of times a day.  They have a will and make choices, but their will bends in the wind and is fact caused by circumstances, environment and desire - it can be molded just like clay.  Every choice we make has a cause - therefore our choices are not really "free".

You could ask the same question of evil about clay pots:  If a claypot commits evil, how is it not God causing it?

Yes, those are tough questions to deal with.  God being responsible for evil (isaiah) does not make him the one who committs it.   But if he directly grabs my arm, makes me pick up a gun and murder, then yes, God is then evil.   It is that fine line to see that makes fervent study important.

Yeah I don't think God directly grabs anyone's arm and forces them to pick up a gun and rob a bank or whatnot.  We are fully capable of doing that ourself.  But what is it that drives a man to commit murder or rob a bank?  Circumstances - circumstances that are usually out of our control.

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h]
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What the scripture is saying is to teach us that no matter how much we resist, Gods will cannot be changed.  What it does NOT say is that we are prevented from talking back to God and experiencing what comes of that due to the ability for us to resist.

Does God take away our ability to resist?  No, he knows we will.  Can we change Gods plan by resisting or complaining or making plans in our own will?   No.

None of that prevents us from resisting, planning, complaining and even doing.

True.  God even plans for us to resist him as seen in Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

But perhaps we are treading too much into "free will" debate territory...

Perhaps, but I politely responded to a post, if everyone keeps it that way, there shouldn't be a problem.

Agreed, I enjoy polite debate.  If the mods don't want any discussion on this, please let us know...

Cheers,
Legoman

[YoungYuni]

/quote]
Yes it is a very important topic for understanding our purpose.  It is so very humbling once you realize how little "free" will you have - perhaps that is why many people are sensitive about it.

Hiya,

I continually see people still misunderstand the usage free will. Whether little, lot, unlimited, constrained, limited, etc. it is still called free will because it is speaking of the philosophy of choice.

You can blame the English language for this horrible misnomer.

:girlheart: :boyheart:

[YoungYuni]

We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD

Hiya,


We do have a will that is independent of God.

Otherwise, phrases like this made by Jesus would make no sense,

Luke 22:42
42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Matthew 26:39
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus, the man, had a will independent from the Father and willingly denied it, in humility to the Father's will to be done.

Luke 18:14
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus also made it clear that mankind has a choice, exalt himself and be humbled or humble himself and be exalted.

That choice, is called a will, a will that is independent from God.

Now if a person decides to exalt himself, his will will not stand, but God.

He will be humbled.

If a person decides to humble himself, his will will not stand, but God.

He will be exalted.

Although the will of man will never stand, that does not mean man does not have a will.

Mankind just does not have the power to sustain their will when it stands against God.

Luke 23:25
25He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.

1 Corinthians 7:37
37But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

We all have a will and if we have a will, we have a choice and if we have a choice, we have a freedom, this will is described and called free will as a result.

Do not let the word free, fool you.

We are not in control of our environment.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[YoungYuni]

Yeah I don't think God directly grabs anyone's arm and forces them to pick up a gun and rob a bank or whatnot.  We are fully capable of doing that ourself.  But what is it that drives a man to commit murder or rob a bank?  Circumstances - circumstances that are usually out of our control.

Hiya,

Man has a free will to do that their self. Remember the definition of free will is a will that has a choice.

What drives a man to commit murder or rob a bank, is not circumstance, it choice.

1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

James 1:12-14
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

The circumstance may arise where you have the opportunity to steal the $100 bill on the counter by a merchant.

Whether you are rich or poor, you still have a choice to steal it, or leave it be, or give it to the merchant who forgot to put it in their register.

To me, it appears you do not seem to know your Scriptures as well as you said you did concerning this.

Every choice we make has a cause - therefore our choices are not really "free".

That cause is our own will to do evil or to do good, regardless of the environment or circumstance.

The reason we do evil or do good all depends on the knowledge we have quality of knowledge acquired.

Actions done in ignorance to the knowledge of the truth, always results in evil.

Actions done in accordance to the knowledge of the truth, always results in good.

That is why Scripture says that we are to renew our minds daily, repent and by the washing the word.

The word is rhema, which is a voice of definite unambiguous meaning and sound definition.

Definite:
1.    clearly defined or determined; not vague or general; fixed; precise; exact: a definite quantity; definite directions.
2.    having fixed limits; bounded with precision: a definite area.
3.    positive; certain; sure: It is definite that he will take the job.
4.    defining; limiting.

Unambiguous
adj.   Having or exhibiting no ambiguity or uncertainty; clear.

Sound
1.    free from injury, damage, defect, disease, etc.; in good condition; healthy; robust: a sound heart; a sound mind.
2.    financially strong, secure, or reliable: a sound business; sound investments.
3.    competent, sensible, or valid: sound judgment.
4.    having no defect as to truth, justice, wisdom, or reason: sound advice.
5.    of substantial or enduring character: sound moral values.
6.    following in a systematic pattern without any apparent defect in logic: sound reasoning.
7.    uninterrupted and untroubled; deep: sound sleep.
8.    vigorous, thorough, or severe: a sound thrashing.
9.    free from moral defect or weakness; upright, honest, or good; honorable; loyal.
10.    having no legal defect: a sound title to property.
11.    theologically correct or orthodox, as doctrines or a theologian

Definition:
1.    a concise explanation of the meaning of a word or phrase or symbol
2.    clarity of outline; "exercise had given his muscles superior definition"

Learn and understand, or just agree to disagree.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think Willie's post was very similar to the clay pot analogy that is used in Romans 9.  Yes we do have a will, there is no question, but is it truely free?  Free from circumstances, environment, influence?  Men change there mind, maybe hundreds of times a day.  They have a will and make choices, but their will bends in the wind and is fact caused by circumstances, environment and desire - it can be molded just like clay.  Every choice we make has a cause - therefore our choices are not really "free".

Do you think perhaps a stumbling block in this issue is that people can try to just debate for or against the terminology of free will, rather than what scripture describes?

If we can produce scripture that gives an indication of both, what can that mean?

[jabcat]

Just to add; Tom Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God) does a really good job of explaining the whole "free will" factor in things, and what that really means. A lot of Universalists see 'free-will' as an obstacle to UR, but Talbott does a good job of showing why a sensible form of it is "necessary" for UR. A lot of the problem with the whole free will question as I see it, seems to be largely an issue of semantics; leading to erroneous teaching in the church that free will is something more than it really is.

Where I stand personally on the issue is similar to Talbott, and boils down to: our "free-will" must be limited to some extent; otherwise God is not sovereign, we are.

Good ending summary to the FW piece Doc  :thumbsup:...

I'd suggest a shift to the last piece of the OP title, "Annihilation" for our further discussion in this particular thread...I started to take the free will out of the title, but let's try to do it as is!  Thanks everyone...you're a great bunch of people!

"Agreed, I enjoy polite debate.  If the mods don't want any discussion on this, please let us know...
Cheers,
Legoman"

Yeah, you guys are personally doing a good job of discussing this, but it historically doesn't stay that way.  Hopefully everyone's pretty much been able to express their POV and we can move on...I'd like to see this thread either stay on annihilation, or pass gently into the night...to face its fate, whatever that may be   :grave:  :Sparkletooth:.

[Nathan]

I think Willie's post was very similar to the clay pot analogy that is used in Romans 9.  Yes we do have a will, there is no question, but is it truely free?  Free from circumstances, environment, influence?  Men change there mind, maybe hundreds of times a day.  They have a will and make choices, but their will bends in the wind and is fact caused by circumstances, environment and desire - it can be molded just like clay.  Every choice we make has a cause - therefore our choices are not really "free".

Do you think perhaps a stumbling block in this issue is that people can try to just debate for or against the terminology of free will, rather than what scripture describes?

If we can produce scripture that gives an indication of both, what can that mean?

My interpretation of what I "think" it's saying is bent.

[legoman]

Just to add; Tom Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God) does a really good job of explaining the whole "free will" factor in things, and what that really means. A lot of Universalists see 'free-will' as an obstacle to UR, but Talbott does a good job of showing why a sensible form of it is "necessary" for UR. A lot of the problem with the whole free will question as I see it, seems to be largely an issue of semantics; leading to erroneous teaching in the church that free will is something more than it really is.

Where I stand personally on the issue is similar to Talbott, and boils down to: our "free-will" must be limited to some extent; otherwise God is not sovereign, we are.

Good ending summary to the FW piece Doc :thumbsup:...

I'd suggest a shift to the last piece of the OP title, "Annihilation" for our further discussion in this particular thread...I started to take the free will out of the title, but let's try to do it as is!  Thanks everyone...you're a great bunch of people!

"Agreed, I enjoy polite debate.  If the mods don't want any discussion on this, please let us know...
Cheers,
Legoman"

Yeah, you guys are personally doing a good job of discussing this, but it historically doesn't stay that way.  Hopefully everyone's pretty much been able to express their POV and we can move on...I'd like to see this thread either stay on annihilation, or pass gently into the night...to face its fate, whatever that may be   :grave:  :Sparkletooth:.

I guess I can live with that.  Here I was winding up for a good old fashioned friendly free will/predestination "discussion"  :bigGrin:

I will just add one last comment (sorry I can't resist) and then point out some good links.

YY pointed out that his definition of free will is making a choice. But even a computer can make choices, and no one claims it has a "free" will or even a will at all.

YY, I think you and I may be in closer agreement than we suspect and are just debating what terminology should be used.  You even say:

"That cause is our own will to do evil or to do good, regardless of the environment or circumstance."

and then go on to say

"The reason we do evil or do good all depends on the knowledge we have quality of knowledge acquired."

And I would say exactly right.  There is a reason we do evil or good - circumstances, experience, knowledge aquired, call it what ever you want.  Something causes us to do evil or good.  Part of that cause is our own desires, part of it is external factors.  Neither of which we really have any control over.

--

The following links do an amazing job of defining free will, describing why we don't have it, and giving the scripture to prove it.  But you are in no way required to believe or even read it:

The Myth of "Free will":
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

It took me many readings of these articles & scripture, and much study & meditation to finally realize our will's are not free.

These are from L. Ray Smith's bible-truths site (which is a UR site).  The whole site is excellent for UR discussion, but perhaps you have already read it.

No matter what the subject, I encourage everyone to study all points of view to determine the truth.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

Do you think perhaps a stumbling block in this issue is that people can try to just debate for or against the terminology of free will, rather than what scripture describes?

If we can produce scripture that gives an indication of both, what can that mean?

Agreed - terminology smerminology - show me what the scriptures say!  :winkgrin:

And we do have indications of both - we are called to make a choice for Christ, yet it is God who must first call us and is in fact operating all according to his will.

And truth be told, I'm just trying to get my post count above 50 so I can see the members forums  :winkgrin:.  Only 15 more to go after this post...  :laughing7:

Legoman

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother Paul... :hithere:

SECOND...  When you write a SONG, ...are you FORCING the music to be what it becomes by your arrangement of the notes, against its "will"?  Or if you were to PAINT a picture, are you FORCING the paints against their "will" as you arrange the colors into a picture?

I realize I am using what you might consider things, which have no "will" of their own... which is EXACTLY the point...  We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD, but the Scriptures are very plain that this is not true... The invention of FREE WILL by man, is the invention of a perception done by DESPARATELY WICKED HEARTS (Jer 17:9)... which notes those "hearts" as SICK concerning SPIRITUAL health...

I think the difficulty here is you use an analogy of something that does not have a will at all.

How can you make such a determination Paul?  Yes, its true that it APPEARS to US, that Paint has "no will" of its own, but can you PROVE that it does not? 

Take up a handfull of ...CLAY... (which is WHAT we ARE) ...into your hands Paul... and shape it into a pot... did you VIOLATE ...the "WILL" of the CLAY? 

The handfull of CLAY you ARRANGED into a POT, displays no more "WILL", than does the PAINT that you eventually use to decorate it once you are finished shaping it, ...does it?  :dontknow:

We do have a will,  it may not be independant of God, but God does not have to directly arrange our notes to get us where he intends us to be.

How can you KNOW that?  You ASSUME this is so, because YOU believe that YOU are "calling the shots"... 

But Romans 9 says otherwise bro... Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh were ALL subjects of the WORK of GOD according to HIM, not them... what makes you think YOU or I would be differently dealt with?  God is not partial, one lump of clay to another, ...ALL lumps are shaped after HIS WILL not theirs...

We are but DUST my friend... and in the humility of that LIFE-LESS and WILL-LESS elementary state which WE ARE, ...do we at the GRACE, and WILLFUL HAND of the POTTER, find BOTH...  :bgdance:

Because we percieve that we have a "will" that WE observe in ourselves, and yet... do NOT have the ability to observe whether or not PAINT actually has a "will", sets us on a course to manipulate the PAINT, ...IRREGARDLESS of the ABSOLUTE surety that we might be "violating" its "will"... if indeed it had one... eh? (I'm not saying PAINT has a "will", I am saying that it is beyond our ability to make an absolute determination that it DOES NOT)

We are CLAY... and via my above comparison... How can you therefore be absolutely SURE that PAINT does not have a "will" which YOU might be violating by manipulating it?  You cannot know, and neither can I...

What about when our notes are evil, how is God not committing evil if he is directly arranging those evil notes?

GOD created EVIL Paul... He is responsible (in the end) for any practice of it, done by beings which HE brought forth, as HE makes THEM ABLE to involve themselves IN IT... directly or indirectly...

For had HE NOT, created EVIL... then NONE of us would be thereby involved in it...

Don't you see this bro?  :dontknow:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:  willieH    :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:

[willieH]

We percieve that we have a "will" which is independent of GOD

Hiya,


We do have a will that is independent of God.

Otherwise, phrases like this made by Jesus would make no sense,

Luke 22:42
42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Matthew 26:39
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus, the man, had a will independent from the Father and willingly denied it, in humility to the Father's will to be done.

Luke 18:14
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus also made it clear that mankind has a choice, exalt himself and be humbled or humble himself and be exalted.

That choice, is called a will, a will that is independent from God.

Now if a person decides to exalt himself, his will will not stand, but God.

He will be humbled.

If a person decides to humble himself, his will will not stand, but God.

He will be exalted.

Although the will of man will never stand, that does not mean man does not have a will.

Mankind just does not have the power to sustain their will when it stands against God.

Luke 23:25
25He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.

1 Corinthians 7:37
37But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

We all have a will and if we have a will, we have a choice and if we have a choice, we have a freedom, this will is described and called free will as a result.

Do not let the word free, fool you.

We are not in control of our environment.

:icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

Hey Yung... In the past you asked me NOT to address your words... and I have complied with that wish...

So, in the future... please do not address my words... that way we shall remain at peace with one another, giving due respect to the others wishes... thanks!  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:  willieH    :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:

[YoungYuni]

Hiya Legoman

I appreciate the discussion!

It is not all the time do I find someone willing to discuss something with also taking into consideration the facts and reasons.

You spoke of computers making choices.

YY pointed out that his definition of free will is making a choice. But even a computer can make choices, and no one claims it has a "free" will or even a will at all.

Computers do not make choices, they are given commands.

They cannot deviate from those commands because their programming cannot surpass the command that is given.

In the world of science, that is the difference between a robot and an artificial intelligence.

They doubt a computer can ever develop a conscientiousness which allows them to make new choices independent from it's programming.

We are intelligent beings, not programmed robots.

We are able by the creative mind God had given us, to go beyond the programming God had given us.

Case in point:

Disobedience.

Disobedience is the ability to defy the programming God had given us. To do the things that ought not be done, and things God had not told us to do.

When the Hebrews defied God and began to worship Baal and Molech, God said the following:

Jeremiah 7:31
31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Jeremiah 32:35
35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

We have proof and evidence in Scripture, that we can do things that God did not command, mention or even enter His Mind!

This is quite a feat which has been accomplished by man, whom God made in His own image.

You then go on to say:

"That cause is our own will to do evil or to do good, regardless of the environment or circumstance."

and then go on to say

"The reason we do evil or do good all depends on the knowledge we have quality of knowledge acquired."

And I would say exactly right.  There is a reason we do evil or good - circumstances, experience, knowledge aquired, call it what ever you want.  Something causes us to do evil or good.  Part of that cause is our own desires, part of it is external factors.  Neither of which we really have any control over.

There is a mistake to make generalities concerning circumstance, experience, and knowledge.

Scripture makes it very clear that God has made all knowledge plain to mankind.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

All knowledge is unhidden and completely plain to all mankind, because God has made it plain to them.

How?

For since creation, every thing has been clearly seen and understood from what has been made.

Men are without excuse.

There is none who can blame God for the evil they commit, there is none who can blame God for choosing evil, and none who can blame God for being created evil.

God's wrath is against mankind's own wickedness and godlessness, who suppress the knowledge of the truth!

Romans 1:18
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Recognize, it is of men that these things come, not God.

Therefore, these things are within the will of mankind to excute.

This is not saying God will not prevail, because God created mankind with this ability already in mind and already has an end by which the will of mankind can be nulled and voided.

Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Because mankind continues to deny the knowledge of the truth, their thinking becomes futile and their foolish hearts darkened.

What else is to become of people who deny the truth when it is made plain to them but to become darkened futile fools.

For anyone to be a darkened futile fool, they had to have made a choice not to choose the knowledge of truth but follow a lie.

Romans 1:25
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

The result of not retaining the knowledge which God has made plain to us from the beginning, results in a depraved mind.

We did not start with a depraved wicked heart and mind, but we can end with one.

Romans 1:28-30
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

According to Scripture, Legoman, it becomes very clear to you and me that we are without excuse. The cause and affect is clear.

The cause is God has made clear and plain the knowledge of the Truth.

The effect was a choice given to mankind to either follow what is true or pursue a lie.

The cause is the choice.

The effect depends on what choice he had pursued.

We become filled with every kind of wickedness by our own will, by our own choice to deny the knowledge of what is true and pursue the our vain imaginations.

1 John 2:21
21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

:boyheart: :girlheart:

[YoungYuni]

Hey Yung... In the past you asked me NOT to address your words... and I have complied with that wish...

So, in the future... please do not address my words... that way we shall remain at peace with one another, giving due respect to the others wishes... thanks!

Hiya WillieH!

I was unaware it was your words I was quoting, I was reading Paul's quote and failed to notice he was quoting you.

My apologies.

:HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

[Paul Hazelwood]

How can you make such a determination Paul?  Yes, its true that it APPEARS to US, that Paint has "no will" of its own, but can you PROVE that it does not? 

That determination is based upon the description in the bible that I have a will and no description of such physical things having one.   If you will provide the scripture of such support of musical notes having a will in scripture I will certainly read them.

The handfull of CLAY you ARRANGED into a POT, displays no more "WILL", than does the PAINT that you eventually use to decorate it once you are finished shaping it, ...does it?  :dontknow:

Yes, but the scripture talks about people resisting and devising their own plans, so there is more to the analogy than the description that we are exactly like the clay I can scoop up in my backyard.

How can you KNOW that?  You ASSUME this is so, because YOU believe that YOU are "calling the shots"... 

Not what I think at all.


Later

[willieH]

Hey Yung... In the past you asked me NOT to address your words... and I have complied with that wish...

So, in the future... please do not address my words... that way we shall remain at peace with one another, giving due respect to the others wishes... thanks!

Hiya WillieH!

I was unaware it was your words I was quoting, I was reading Paul's quote and failed to notice he was quoting you.

My apologies.

:HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

:Peace:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:  willieH    :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:

[legoman]

Hi YY,

Alot of what you are saying I agree with.

Let me address the points of contention:  computers do follow instructions and do make choices.  A simple "IF" statement proves this:

if { x<4 } x++; // the computer will choose: IF X is less than 4 then increment it, otherwise do nothing

Sorry for the C coding lesson  :grin:  Now lets look at our programming:

if { I am hungry } go find something to eat;

Same type of logic, granted a LOT more complicated than a computer.  Even AI can be reduced down to this same type of simple logic. True, we are much more complicated than a computer or robot, with the capacity to learn, gain experience, feel emotions, etc.  Yet much of our choices come down to this simple kind of logic.  Even love can be a type of "programmed" response:

if ( person X makes me feel happy AND I am attracted to that person) then fall in love with that person.

Granted its not quite that simple, but perhaps you get my meaning.  Would you guess I am a software designer who fixes bugs all day long?  :winkgrin:  Even computers don't always follow instructions/intent of the programmer - thats why there are so many bugs   :winkgrin: 



Ok lets look at disobedience.  Why do we disobey?  God causes us to disobey!  Don't believe it?  Look at Romans 11:32:
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.



Regarding the fires at Baal where children were burned and sacrificed.  The verses say "it never entered my mind."

But is that the literal truth?  Surely God knew it was going to happen (because He is all-knowing with complete foreknowledge), and therefore it was in his mind at some point.  I think I read somewhere that a better translation of this verse is "it never entered my heart".  The meaning would be it is not something God would endorse.  Just like he doesn't endorse lying, or stealing, or murder, yet all these things are still ordained to happen.

Scripture makes it very clear that God has made all knowledge plain to mankind.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

All knowledge is unhidden and completely plain to all mankind, because God has made it plain to them.

I think you are way off base on this one.  Romans 1 is talking about knowledge of an all-powerful God, not all knowledge in general.

Scripture makes it clear that there is knowledge that is not known.  Likewise this should be obvious from our own personal experience as we don't know everything and are confused about the things we do know.

There is knowledge hidden from the ages (eph 3:9, col 1:26).  God causes us to be disobedient in unbelief (Romans 11:32).  God sends a strong delusion to blind us (2 Thes 2:11) so we will believe a lie.  It is clear that God is opening the mystery of the kingdom of God slowly throughout the ages.  Eventually all will know and understand, but right now many are blinded.  God has blinded people from the knowledge of the truth for his plan.

I agree with you that we are without excuse.  We will be held accountable for what we know and do.  But God is ultimately responsible and will correct everything - that is the beauty of the reconcilation - UR.

Peace,
Legoman

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul :hithere:

How can you make such a determination Paul?  Yes, its true that it APPEARS to US, that Paint has "no will" of its own, but can you PROVE that it does not? 

That determination is based upon the description in the bible that I have a will and no description of such physical things having one.   If you will provide the scripture of such support of musical notes having a will in scripture I will certainly read them.

I have not inferred that PAINT or MUSICAL NOTES actually DO have individual "wills"... I have used them as examples that INTELLIGENT, CREATIVE force was used to bring them into a perspective of BEAUTY and WONDER...

YET... we cannot KNOW that these (in the 99% of true reality we KNOW nothing about) are not little "living entities" which we manipulate! 

What if, in the kingdom we find out that "Music and Paint" are actually WILL TOTIN' entities?  :mshock:   :pointlaugh:

Hey -- It is a FACT, ...that music is VERY INFLUENTIAL... and can MOVE people EMOTIONALLY... even INSPIRE us at times and is a vehicle of PRAISE before GOD...

As is ART... An INANIMATE PAINTING (sitting on a wall), can "make your day" as you traipse through the Gallery!  And encourage YOU to BUY it, without saying a WORD, or prompting you via it's "actions"! (will?)

We observe a COW as a living, breathing entity with a SMALL DEGREE of "will" (as it decides when to eat, where to walk, sitting down, etc) which for some, ends up as FOOD on our table...

But a CARROT or a TREE which are living, breathing entities, we determine as having NO WILL whatsoever, simply because they are INANIMATE...

Because something is not detailed in Scripture as having a given trait ("will"), does not ABSOLUTELY DETERMINE, that it does NOT indeed, ...have that "trait"...

For example, ...it doesn't say in Scripture that "BREATHING" was done by CAIN, but because of our experience as human beings, we presume this took place and was a fact, even though there is no SCRIPTURAL detailing of this activity in him, and we were not EYE WITNESSES of it ourselves... (no doubt he needed a bottle of SCOPE as much as the rest of us!  :laughing7:)

Romans 9 -- as is Eph 1:11 (and others) is pretty straight forward that GOD is behind the actions of men... the WILL of men is shown to be going against that which is FREE, for that which is FREE is the WORD of GOD... and FREEDOM is found CREATED ...by It... (John 8:32, 36) ...in BEINGS which have a "will" prior to their EXPOSURE, ...TO  IT... 

How therefore, can the "WILL" be known as FREE until the WORD of GOD creates that particular CHARACTERistic -- IN IT?  Once the WORD enters the circumstance, the "will" which is percieved "free" by men, ...IS found being CHANGED!  And it no longer DOES what it formerly DID...

That Pharaoh, Jacob and Esau, all DID as was decided by YHVH...  displays that THEY themselves did not BRING FORTH, due to "the decisions of their will"... the manifestated actions of their lives...  :dontknow:

The handfull of CLAY you ARRANGED into a POT, displays no more "WILL", than does the PAINT that you eventually use to decorate it once you are finished shaping it, ...does it?  :dontknow:

Yes, but the scripture talks about people resisting and devising their own plans, so there is more to the analogy than the description that we are exactly like the clay I can scoop up in my backyard.

Oh really?  Then the "dust" from which GOD made Adam is somehow different than the dust of the earth, Paul?  And when we return to the dust, we are different than the dust we return to?  :dontknow:

The CLAY you scoop in your backyard is EXACTLY what you ARE!  The only difference is that GOD decided to make YOUR PORTION of it, a living, breathing entity which is cognizant of its surroundings... and (possibly and mistakenly) presumes that it is somehow different than other CLAY found in the backyard...

The WHOLE POINT of GOD noting we are but CLAY, is for us to OBSERVE the dirt in the BACKYARD, seeing it as useless, valueless, with no particular purpose, ...and know it is the WONDER of HIS LOVE which has separated us from THAT  mud, to be HIS KIDS... and thereby via this OBSERVATION, find the HUMILITY  :blush: of this lowly position in proximity to HIS...  :cloud9:

Btw... you STILL cannot be SURE that the CLAY in your backyard, has no "will" of its own.  :laughing7: 

(hmmm...  :Chinscratch: ...wonder what it's ...UP TO?  :wacko2: ...probably growing weeds in my grass again! :help:)

How can you KNOW that?  You ASSUME this is so, because YOU believe that YOU are "calling the shots"... 

Not what I think at all.

Later

You signed off as a bit miffed...

Well, please know I do not mean to offend you brother, but ...what do you think bro? 

If YOU are not "calling the shots"... WHO IS?  :dontknow:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:  willieH    :Sparkletooth: :Sparkletooth:

[jabcat]

I asked politely, and Martin recently made it clear this is a topic that will be tightly moderated.  Thread is locked and will not be reopened.  There's plenty more to discuss that we can do so while edifying the body  :thumbsup:.  If anyone wants to pursue this discussion, please feel free to do so by PMs.  God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

 :sigh: I'll only ask once.  Those of you that don't believe in free will that are incapable of peacefully coexisting with those that do, please leave the Tentmaker Forum and don't come back.  Free will is restored through the work of Christ Jesus:

14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will. (Philemon 1:14)

16no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. (Philemon 1:16)

I tried working with the Absolute Sovereignty crowd and even got rid of Craig.  But Craig doesn't seem to be the problem.  It's unquestionably the Absolute Sovereignty crowd.  So, I'm asking nicely of that crowd, if you can't peacefully coexist with the free will UR folks, then please leave before I start banning folks.  Just got an email from Gary saying for me to treat the forum as my own and that's what I'm going to be doing.