They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

[alihaymeg]

Is that one of the psalms? Which one is it? Awesome! :happygrin:

[Nathan]

Do we all agree there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ here on this litteral earth?

If so, what purpose will it serve? Do you think people will be married, or babies born during that reign?

Do you understand the vision of Daniel concerning this event?That it is about all the world from start to finish?

Daniel 2: 36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[What can THIS mean, Are all humans men in God's eyes?]
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.  

What do you think the millineum is for,and who will be in that millineum?Why will the kingdom not be left to other people than those in the vision?

No, we do not all agree.  Not that there should be any condemnation here, I just see it much differently.  For one . . .I find it strange that the traditional belief is, 99% of the beings will be in the spirit while the other 1% will be still in the flesh . .and even though 99% are in the spirit . . .the thousand years is still a measurement of the flesh.  It's not fitting for me.  I have been a fundementalist all my life . . .up to the point where I realized the letter of the word kills if you embrace it . . .but LEADS you to life if you exercise it.  But exercising it, I don't mean living by it's literal rules . . that would be embracing it.  But exercising it, I mean that it is what Jesus says it is . . .it's a sign.

John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

They are a sign that "points" to Christ . . .who is . . .a spirit.  Follow the directions by doing what Scripture says . .when it says we are free from the law of sin and death . .walk in that.  When it says the flesh profiteth nothing . .walk in that as well.  When it says "walk in the spirit and not after the flesh . . ."  There is where things begin to transform "how" I read Scripture.  The Word is a sign in the physical realm that points to life in the spiritual realm.

Revelation is very explicit as to how it's to be read . . .it's written in signs and symbols . . .it's not meant to be emphasized literally . .and . . as was shared on the thread "servant versus bondservant" the book is not written to just anybody.

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Read that verse very slowly.  First . .it's not about a timetable for the earth or mankind.  It's a revelation . .and unveiling . . .it's the uncovering of that which was once covered . . .of Jesus Christ.  And John didn't "learn" it . . the Father "revealed" it to him.  In this translation (KJV) servants there really should be bondservants . .but because this is explained in the thread previously mentioned . . .we'll let that go here.  must shortly come to pass  This one so many people in so many churches seem to just skim over . . .to them . . .2000 years can still mean shortly.  To me . . .shortly meant . . .shortly.

And it was sent AND SIGNIFIED . . .it's all symbolism.  Just as we understand the number 7 has nothing to do with an accumulation of numeric objects but instead it actually means completion and fulfillment . . .the number 1 means sovereignty . .2 means witness . . .3 = resurrection and life.  1000 is the same thing.  It has nothing to do with a specific length of anything.  It is a DIMENSION of REST.  It is the holy of holies where there is NO LABOR required of the priests.

Why?  Because Revelation is an unveiling of Jesus.  And the tabernacle is the forerunner of Revelation.  It is the blueprint.  Moses was told to pay special attention to detail because it was a PATTERN of something else.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ.  Revelation is the unveiling of Christ . . .if you want to understand Revelation, you need to first understand the symbolism of the tabernacle because it's referred to all through Revelation.  And the thousand year reign is no differnt.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . .that equals 1000.  It's all symbolic for something deeper SPIRITUALLY not physically.

It's spirtiual language and it'll never fit when we try to interpret it with natural reason.  The rapture that the church expects to happen literally, happens "spiritually" in every one of us when we "see" the revelation of Christ in our hearts.  The antichrist is my carnal mind . .the bottomless pit . . .same thing . . .the locusts that fly out of this pit are my carnal thoughts that consume every living thing I release them on . . .but we're to take captive those thoughts.  Christ is the only one that has the key to unlock my mind . .not to release the curse within, but to transform it.  Hell, death, lake of fire . .. it's all spiritual . .there is no literal lake of fire . . .that is the laver that cleanses the priests.

So no . . not everyone agrees that the thousand years is still something that is yet to happen on this earth . . .those things came and went with the end of THAT age.

[onlytruth]

excellent nathan;praise God for the revelation He is showing you. you have a great way of allowing the reader to understand!
blessings in the kingdom :icon_king:

[Taffy]

 

Read that verse very slowly.  First . .it's not about a timetable for the earth or mankind.  It's a revelation . .and unveiling . . .it's the uncovering of that which was once covered . . .of Jesus Christ.

Amen Nathan, that which Is HID behind the veil, if its hid , its concealed , the fact that its Hidden doesnt negate that which has always Been there, The mystery of the ages is what Paul comes to Understand

Christ seperating Paul from HIS "MOTHERS WOMB", that Is Judasim ,The womb\bowels, is likened to our our mind, our thought process, to that which he was  Born, HIS mind Now renewed in CHRIST, by  passing through of the veil...,
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.


Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

[Molly]

So no . . not everyone agrees that the thousand years is still something that is yet to happen on this earth . . .those things came and went with the end of THAT age.

This is where you lose me.  I get most of it up until this point.  



1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


--Rev 20


This is the thousand year reign of the Melchizedek priesthood.  Those reigning during this time are eternal, because this priesthood is based on an indestructible life.   That is why they are the first resurrection.  That is why the second death has no power over them.  These things have to be factual.

Now Martin says Jesus becomes High Priest and King as soon as he rides into Jerusalem.  I think he becomes this as soon as he is declared the Son by God.

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

--Luke 3


Consider this.  There are servants(slaves), bondservants(freemen who choose to serve), and sons.  The sons co-inherit with Christ.  This is a legal matter.  The sons are the legal beneficiaries.  As they co-inherit with Christ, so are they also co-owners, and co-rulers with Christ.  Just as the pattern is given us of the Levite priesthood passed down from father to son, so also is the Melchizedek Priesthood pased down from Father to Son, but on the basis of an eternal life.


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1


Do any of the apostles call themselves sons?  Why not? They are still bondservants, the firstfruits, ushering in the reign of the sons of God.  They are like midwives--  Those who help in the birthing process--  As are all the servants of God--


14Are [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

--Hebrews 1


It is not the angels, not the servants or bondservants, not the prophets, priests, and kings who will inherit the kingdom of God, it is the sons.

So we wait.  We wait for this to be fully manifested--on earth as it is in heaven:



Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Nathan]

I really think you're definitely leaning in the right direction Molly.  I like your views on sons and bond-servants . . .I'm reminded of the prodigal . . .he was a son, but he saw himself returning as a slave.  I think perhaps all are sons, but some sons see themselves as slaves out of debt, and others out of relationship.  The sonship brings inheritance which truly is key.

I would love to see a church that has this revelation, and "then" come into a revival like we've seen many churches do.  I truly believe this is the main reason why revivals don't stay long.  Men don't understand the order of God.  They build their man-made carts in which to carry this spiritual presence and try to govern where it can and can not go.  But the presence of God is not to be pulled in a "new" cart by oxen . . .a laboring mind.  Instead, it's to be carried "upon" the shoulders of men . . .it is to "replace" the mind of man.

your passage you quoted about him seeing those that were beheaded . .that's what that is.  It's not speaking to me about those who literally were beheaded.  That would mean, those that were beheaded got more attention than those that were crucified . .or burned at the stake . .or stuffed into an animal skin and ripped apart by lions . . .there are much more violent ways to go than just being beheaded . . .in fact, "that" is probably the fastest way to go.

No, I see these as the saints who let the Word of God separate their carnal thinking from the spiritual truth planted in them.  they didn't worship/honor/embrace the beast/carnality, it's image/imaginations and didn't take the mark/identity upon their hands/works or forehead/mind. 

So if these things are yet to all happen . .then Jesus didn't really mean what he said when he cried out "It is finished" . . .what he really meant was "my physical life here is finished . .the old system is finished, my ministry is finished . . . but in 2,000 years, I'll bring to completion what I said I finished."

For me, if he held on to life in the worst ever torture anyone could imagine, in the midst of all of that, if he held on long enough just to cry out these three little words . .then I'm just foolish enough to believe he meant what he said . . .it's ALL completed . ..done. 

It boils down to whether I choose to live in the spirit . .which is where these things are all completed at . . .or if I choose to live in the natural . . .which doesn't have the capablity to "see" what is or isn't in the spirit.  It all comes back to faith. 

For me to "see" a chair in the natural and then say "there is a chair there" . . .that isn't faith, that's simply reinforcing what is already being seen.  "But" if I'm in an empty room in the natural, but I "see" a chair in the spirit . . .and "then" I call it out "there's a chair"  "that" becomes faith.  You can't claim it if you don't see it.

So when I take the Bible and quote Scriptures . .that's not faith . .that's simply reinforcing what is already seen.  Faith is seeing what is there in the spirit and when you call it out . . .it "becomes" known in the flesh.  Moving mountains . . .a mountain is a symbol for government . . there's another word as well . .can't remember it.  But it's dealing with rudiments of men  . . . faith moves mountains . .it changes how people think.

[Molly]

For me, if he held on to life in the worst ever torture anyone could imagine, in the midst of all of that, if he held on long enough just to cry out these three little words . .then I'm just foolish enough to believe he meant what he said . . .it's ALL completed . ..done. 

Yes, technically speaking it is all done.  He's done what he had to do in taking away the sins of the world.

When something is manifested, it doesn't mean it wasn't there before.  It's there, but waiting to be revealed.

Just like the unborn full term baby is there waiting to be revealed at his birth.

[Taffy]

I see a reign OF LIFE associated with TODAY, as well as a reign OF DEATH associated with YESTERDAY... both being ONE DAY... and "as A THOUSAND YEARS" (twice).  :Peace2:

In the beginning God divided the light from the darkness, dividing ONE DAY into THE DAY (TODAY, when you hear His voice and harden not your heart... and pass from death unto life) and THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY" when is it past).

God has a covenant with both (the NIGHT and the DAY).. and is, therefore, the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.  :happygrin:

I agree. TODAY is THE DAY of the Lord.  :dsunny:

And:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

TODAY... when you hear His voice and harden not your heart.  :declare:

Then shall we be given right to partake of the Tree of Life and be seated with Christ in heavenly places, He having made us "kings and priests unto God" in the kingdom of the heavens.  :bowing:

Chrissie,,Dont go doing that To me sis.... :thumbsup:

anyways Where are ya,. :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I like this, too....... :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

G did ya e-mail her? She was over at ogr with me for a day and shes on an old thread elsewhere too, I think shes into making her videos right now, too cute!

I like the way she shows this one with the thousand years, she shows it well  :thumbsup:

yup...Gosh

Maybe  shell come post some now knowing there others here too,,,Kinda got Lonely..mmm

Ive always Been a Babe Magnet sis,,...he ha,Maybe Nat will want me Autograph....

ok ok ok..Just Busting...Had a Mail a day back...he ha ..time to chat some amybe :icon_flower:..loike me shpelling

[Taffy]

:cloud9: I like this, too....... :thumbsup:

love to have  Chrissie Here ..who knows

[Molly]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Could someone please comment on this scripture?  And is salvation a multi-step process, and what does it entail?


"My Spirit will not remain with mankind forever, because they are corrupt.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh..

--Gen 6

[ScarletWren]

Wow,

What a thread.  I have to admit I didn't read every post completely.  I found some of the posts quite distressful in the way those of opposing views were addressed.  I can't see how people would not feel personally attacked by some of the posts.  There was no love there in my humble opinion.  I understand that it can be frustrating trying to expose what one believes is false interpretation and thinking but isn't it open to sharing here?  Is it right to be open to being called names if your interpretation differs from someone else's?  And that on my part is a judgment which may be unfair, but I just needed to express that.

I think Nathan did a fantastic job of expressing his views and I agree with him that there are layers of each 'story' in the Bible.  I really liked your example of the narrative on Goliath, Nathan.  I do love seeing the deeper meanings.  That said, however, I agree with Molly and those who believe there will be a literal reign.  Call me carnal, blind, whatever.  Since we have had to endure carnal governments here on this earth, why is it so difficult to believe or hope that there will be a time of great peace here on earth?  I don't know about any of you, but I don't see myself anywhere near the 'person' that I believe I will be some day.  Like Paul, I still do things that I don't want to do, and still don't do things that I should.  Sometimes I know that I can resist doing something I shouldn't do, but I do it anyway because that's what I really want to do.  I'm far from being in the likeness of Christ.  So, yes, my hope is that there will be a time on this old terra firma where we can experience somewhat of a Garden of Eden experience. 

I have a lot of ideas that others don't agree with.  It's for God to show me different, for when He does, then it is exciting and seems far superior to what I formerly believed.  When humans attempt to explain it, it seems quite distasteful, lol.  It's always been when I read an article on a website that my views changed, never by someone writing in a forum.  I don't know why that is, but so far that's been my experience.

However, I do find much of interest, usually when I least expect it.

[Nathan]

This being an older thread and all, I'm not sure if I commented on this particular issue or not.  I've had this on the back burner for quite some time when dealing with the literal return of Christ.  I have come to terms with realizing that many things I thought would unfold were just misinterpreted understandings.  I have since let go of the idea of a rapture of the church.  I have since let go of the idea that there is a place of eternal torment for any who are made in the image of God.  The list goes on.

But one thing that I've quietly held on to was the idea that Christ would still come in bodily form.  Many people in my circle have shared that they do believe Christ is still coming, it's just in a different form from what many are expecting.  Christ is coming in a body, they say, he's coming in a corporate body.  His spirit will breathe and operate and manifest within the body of Christ as it manifests upon the earth.

I could see that, but I could also see Christ was still coming back in the flesh.  Now, those of you out there who have other passages that state this distinctly, please post.  But for me, the only passage that hung me up was when Jesus ascended into heaven and the angels declared "just as you see him go, you'll see him return".  Now, my head sees this to mean, that just as THEY saw him go in the flesh, WE'LL see him return.  Which is the same that the mainline church continues to profess.

But that's not actually what he said.  He said "to them" just as "you" see me go, "you'll" see me return.  IF Jesus hasn't returned as the church claims, then this proclamation would be a lie.  Because by human standards, there is no record that he's returned.  But then it occurred to me . . .I'm doing the same thing the disciples did after Jesus died and resurrected.  I'm still looking for a physical Jesus . . with my "natural" mind.  And like the disciples then, I would speak right past him, not realizing, he's right HERE in me.

Just as they saw him go . . .how did he go?  He left in a resurrected state.  He was no longer bound by the laws of physics in this natural realm of things.  He did return.  He returned in the upper room . . .he returned to Peter, he returned to Paul, he returned as judge to Israel as a nation . . .he returned over and over again, just in different forms with different purposes.  It's the church that has again ingrained in us this vision of a natual body returning in the flesh.

That led into another pattern.  All through Scripture when you see where someone's name was changed . . .did you ever wonder why?  My time is up, and I need to get back to work.  But in short, their name was changed because it was connected to a change in their nature.  Well, I believe it's the same for Jesus.  his form changed from spirit to flesh so that he would endure the curse of the flesh so that he could over come it and redeem man back to God.  But as he said on the cross . . .it's finished.  And if it's finished, why then would we expect hime to return back to the physical earth in a body of flesh, when that part of him has already been comlete and fulfilled?

No body said being pregnant was comfortable.  There are things that he's causing to stretch in us that we never realized could expand so much.  Makes your walk become a waddle every where you go.

[CHB]

Here is something I have been thinking for quite sometime.

All through the old Testament there was a promise of an earthly kingdom to the israelites only. Not Gentiles. Jesus said "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
In (Luke 12:32) Jesus said "fear not little flock,for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom". Also in Luke 13:29 it says, "they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God".

In many places it says that when Christ returns he brings his saints with him (1Thess. 3:13) (Zech. 13:5)  (Joel 3:11). I pose a question. Are these angels or Israelites that was resurrected in 70 AD who God will give the kingdom to? If Jesus came back in 70 AD he took the saints back with him. That is why Jesus said of John "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee"? Jesus must have come back before John died.

(1Cor. 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ,{first resurrection}  the firstfruits {Israel, second resurrection} afterward they that are Christ's at his coming {third resurrection}.

I wonder if the second resurrection hasn't already happened? I am beginning to believe it has. There are just too many scriptures that show this.

Lets say the second resurrection has already happened. The saints are already with God, maybe being trained to rule in the kingdom that Christ will set up on his next and last return. Which will be the third resurrection. This would explain Christ coming back in all the scriptures and the saints return as well. It would still leave the kingdom to be given to the Israelites, during the thousand years.

Any comments/

CHB

[ScarletWren]

But did Jesus appear to the "lost sheep of Israel?"   Number one, those inhabiting Israel at the time of Christ were mainly from the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin with some from Levi to make up the priests.  The other 9 tribes plus many from the tribe of Levi were assimilated among the nations that conquered them and they were dispersed to many nations.  So the promises were not exclusively to the "Jews."  Besides Paul informed us that a true Israelite was not one outwardly, but one inwardly.

The whole dispensational teaching revolves around different promises and gospels for the gentiles and the Israelites.  I studied it for awhile but it didn't seem right to me.  What was spiritually inherent in God's dealings with primitive, physical Israel is what is still for us today, at least in my opinion.  I'm just sharing what my studies indicate to me.

It is good tho and challenging to have different views presented.  I've been at a few places where pretty much everybody agreed about everything, it really is kinda boring, lol.  I just don't like strife within the disagreement. 

Just a thought on the 3 resurrections mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians.  Before speaking of those 3, Paul has already established that Christ was risen.  He states that all will be made alive IN CHRIST, but each in his own order (or squadron).  It seems a bit strange that he would start off with Christ when he is teaching about the resurrection of the rest of men.  The word Christos means anointed, and so it is possible (and to me seems more likely) that Paul was not talking about THE Christ in that passage, but about the annointed firstfruits (which would be more likely to be considered a squadron than one man), there is no article before that 'christ' as there is before when Paul said all will be made alive in the Christ and when he says the second squadron is composed of those who are 'the Christ's' at his appearing.  A more thorough explanation is given in Stephen Jone's book, Creation's Jubilee which can be found here:   http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/stephen_jones/jones6.html   in chapter 6.

I would recommend this book highly, tho I don't agree with everything Dr. Jones holds to.  Another good insight in this book can be found in chapter 8 which addresses the relationship between sin and death...that we sin because we are mortal.

Hope I didn't deviate too much from the thread.

[CHB]

Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

(Rev. 20:4-13) Verse 4 speaks of those who have been killed for the witness of God and them reigning with Christ a thousand years.

In verse 5 it says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION".

If there was a first, then it stands to reason there is a second. Also, in (1Cor. 15:23) it speaks of more than one resurrection at least that is the way I understand it at this point. I have changed my mind many times, so nothing is concrete.   

Rev.Verse 6 says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

I believe this is talking about the Jew's or those in the New Covenant. All those that are Christians up till John. The Jew's are the only ones who will be priests. The book of Revelation was to the Jew's {seven Churches} not Gentiles.

In verses 12 and 13 is a second group of people, still Israelites. If you notice in verse 12 it says "the dead were judged according to their works".  Has to be Israel.

If we are in Christ we have no works, it is Christ working in us. If we are dead in Christ, dead people don't work. When the Father looks at us he sees Christ. The Jew's, and those who keep laws are the ones who will be judged according to their works.

CHB

[rosered]

But did Jesus appear to the "lost sheep of Israel?"   Number one, those inhabiting Israel at the time of Christ were mainly from the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin with some from Levi to make up the priests.  The other 9 tribes plus many from the tribe of Levi were assimilated among the nations that conquered them and they were dispersed to many nations.  So the promises were not exclusively to the "Jews."  Besides Paul informed us that a true Israelite was not one outwardly, but one inwardly.

The whole dispensational teaching revolves around different promises and gospels for the gentiles and the Israelites.  I studied it for awhile but it didn't seem right to me.  What was spiritually inherent in God's dealings with primitive, physical Israel is what is still for us today, at least in my opinion.  I'm just sharing what my studies indicate to me.

It is good tho and challenging to have different views presented.  I've been at a few places where pretty much everybody agreed about everything, it really is kinda boring, lol.  I just don't like strife within the disagreement. 

Just a thought on the 3 resurrections mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians.  Before speaking of those 3, Paul has already established that Christ was risen.  He states that all will be made alive IN CHRIST, but each in his own order (or squadron).  It seems a bit strange that he would start off with Christ when he is teaching about the resurrection of the rest of men.  The word Christos means anointed, and so it is possible (and to me seems more likely) that Paul was not talking about THE Christ in that passage, but about the annointed firstfruits (which would be more likely to be considered a squadron than one man), there is no article before that 'christ' as there is before when Paul said all will be made alive in the Christ and when he says the second squadron is composed of those who are 'the Christ's' at his appearing.  A more thorough explanation is given in Stephen Jone's book, Creation's Jubilee which can be found here:   http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/stephen_jones/jones6.html   in chapter 6.

I would recommend this book highly, tho I don't agree with everything Dr. Jones holds to.  Another good insight in this book can be found in chapter 8 which addresses the relationship between sin and death...that we sin because we are mortal.

Hope I didn't deviate too much from the thread.

that was  great  Scarlet Wren!
  I also  believe that Christ[anointed] are the firstfruits   sis ,  and the Head of the Body [government ]
I learned that by the Way Paul spoke in  His   writtings
   many times he said  simply '' the Christ ''
  and other times the Lord Jesus Christ and other Times   just Lord Jesus

  this what you said confirms  for the same   things !
  thanks for taking the time to write out whats in your heart sis !    it is a true treasure

   for me there is a second death  and that  does not harm those  who are hid in Christ 
and are with Him at His coming[saints /holy ones / new creatures in Christ]

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
our Father would the the TRUE  ONE GOD     of those being born again of Spirit and TRUTH [the Incorruptible seed/word of God ]

, I see this as more Spiritual  than literal  in meaning Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


Col 3:3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall you  also appear with him in glory.  
the Christ [anointing ] scattered body will be  Gathered and Whole / complete and perfect  in GOD

  I noted that  Paul said this ,even  those who sleep in Jesus  will God bring with Him   those hid in Christ perhaps ?
  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
  this is how a  rapture theory come to being  , but I see it more of a rupture theory

  because of the firstfruits[Christ'sanointing ]

  And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.   1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. the annointing of God though Christ name Jesus , there is no other name to be saved by under heaven   :HeartThrob:


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.





Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

  I can see that it is hard to explain  , but it is within us to know  and yet hard to express in words   what the Lord is revealing within us
   praying still for more clarity  of speech
in His   peace  ..........rose

[Taffy]

Nice post Kim... :icon_flower:

mm, Not much more to add  for now after that sis...  :icon_flower:

:HeartThrob:

[rosered]

 
  wow that is amazing , so you been busy huh?  girl I see that alot more scriptures  are connected to these  you have provided  ,

   the Day [Christ]  is where the works of the Father continue , being   the  ressurection looked up the meaning of ressurection   that Christ Is
and see some things here that can be appied to those verses sis ...

 

anastasis
1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)

2) a rising from the dead

a) that of Christ

b) that of all men at the end of this present age

c) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (Heb. 11:35)


from ..anistēmi

1) to cause to rise up, raise up

a) raise up from laying down

b) to raise up from the dead

c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward

2) to rise, stand up

a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground

b) of persons seated

c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere

1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey

d) of the dead

3) at arise, appear, stand forth

a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents

b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others

c) to rise up against any one

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[rosered]

Hi guys, I was locked out the forum and couldnt respond sorry  :grin: I have to find Chrissies I know its somewheres she just has better communication skills then me but she shows a thing much better Im sorta all over the place. I look for it tonight and post it when I find it.

You know Rose, its the word "finished" behind the thousand years too that has me. Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross, the mystery of God is also "finished" as it pertains to a trump. And lust concieved gives brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death... Its just the way something is worded and where you can find these words being used that will raise an eyebrow with me. I always think, "maybe its nothing, but most times looking into can really be an eye opener as to why something is worded that way.


For example, the power of sin is the law, sin by the commandment become utterly sinful, and the commandment used by Paul was "thou shalt not covet" (lust) which appeared to bring forth the conception of lust, and lust when its conceived brings forth sin when "IT is FINISHED" and on the Cross Christ was MADE Sin theres His death and the words "IT IS FINISHED" also the thousand years in relation to THE rest of THE DEAD had to be FINISHED. Being held as DEAD was in relation to the law itself where sin is empowered and Christ coming is specifically WITHOUT Sin... See? First he was MADE IT and come WITHOUT IT but the law in relation to the thousand years and the work of Christ fits in here somehows, I just cant see it yet, gotta look closer, I mean whats the thousand years gotta be finished for if were looking at this the natural way? Some questions irk me  :grin:

hugs  :HeartThrob:

yes    made sin wow  ! and without sin
   that is something , the way  the words  sound or speak  to us !  geez   Sis this is cool .. 


I  put up both places of scriptures 

and here teleō

   finnished 1) to bring to a close, to finish, to end
a) passed, finished

2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)

a) with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command

b) with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil

3) to pay

a) of tribute

AV — finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3

  this was tagged on there ??>

In Jhn 19:30 the word means, "It is finished." Christ satisfied God's justice by dying for all to pay for the sins of the elect. These sins can never be punished again since that would violate God's justice. Sins can only be punished once, either by a substitute or by yourself.



Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.


Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,


Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.


Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[ScarletWren]

Hi Rose,

Glad to see I posted something that we could agree on.  I like your reasoning that shone through.

Fire, I believe you have some awesome thoughts.  To be truthful tho, I cant' see where you go with the verses you show.  I am very limited in sight I guess.  I always need a lot more explanation to go with verses that are put up, plus some explanation to tie them together.

Tho I like spiritual explanations, I still need a base here in the material to apply the spiritual to.  Sorry.  I did really 'get' your post on the context thread.  That one you came through very clearly on, or perhaps it is just something God has given me better sight on?  shrug.  I can only see what I can see (I yam what I yam, lol)

Bless you both, your love and praise and worship and reverence of the Lord does shine through in all your posts.

[ScarletWren]

Hi Rose,

That was a bit better, I must admit.

I do understand some of the spiritual aspects of this but it still doesn't convince me that there is no future time on earth when those who are resurrected learn righteousness.

Paul said we have the EARNEST of the spirit now.  When did it become the full-fledged Spirit?  When have we ever done the things that Christ did and more?  I don't see that happening.  Tho I know I can commune with God at any given time, I am not in constant conscious communion with Him  I have heard a few reports here and there of strange and 'awe'some things that took place.  But I don't see it happening here.  I've heard it is because those of us in the U.S. just don't have enough faith.  And yet Jesus did his miracles without needing the faith of the people, tho he commented a few times on someone's faith.

I see no one walking into a hospital and just start physically healing the sick and dying.  And we can't heal them spiritually, that's the Holy Spirit who wakens them from the 'dead' to see Jesus, 'life'.

I understand that we each inidvidually go through the ages/night&day in our personal lives, but I don't know of anyone who is anywhere close to where Jesus was in THIS age or any age previous.  There are men who I admire, both living and dead, who have helped me lift a few of the veils from over my eyes, but I don't see that they were yet completed.

I believe that there are also world ages, if you will, that go through this process.  In the beginning, Adam & Eve were like babies, not really knowing right from wrong, until they did something directly against what God directed.  They most likely sinned before that but God had not verbally told them it was wrong.  Then there was the time when men made a semblance of being obedient but most ended up going their own way(Cain and Abel then men living by their own consciences), Then God calls out one man and begins to work with him, to put him under tutors and give him a vision of what it's like to be a son of God, He promised blessings untold and they did get some of those but they could not live up to the letter of the law and reaped the punishments, just as children are at times put under rules it seems they can not bear and receive sometimes rewards and other times chastisement.  Then comes some freedom and now man (perhaps a teenager) gets a bit more responsibility to choose what's right but realize how much his parents do love him.  In that age (time period) there are many who choose to walk as their parents had taught them, others rebel completely as the prodigal son, others try to walk a line in between, going just so far before they go running back to what daddy (or mommy) for confirmation of his 'acceptability' and therefore thinks he is safe.  This is the age I think we are living in.  I don't think we've yet reached the age when we've been awarded the 'sonship'-- the legal adoption-- where we are now considered capable of running God's world as his able representatives.  I'm not being very precise in this explanation, I can't quite pin it all down.  But God used the harvests liberally and we've had a literal fulfillment of Passover, a literal fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts, and I can't see where Tabernacles has yet had a literal fulfillment in the earth.  I believe that will be the next age and then Christ, through His anointed firstfruits will begin opening eyes in large numbers and His 'sons' will do greater miracles than Christ wrought when He walked this earth. 

Plus, I don't see there being an end to ages.  There are a set number of ages in which the Father is working to make sons. But does that mean there are no ages after that?  He is a God of creation, I can't see that there is an end to things to 'do' or purposes to serve, and on and on. The Bible does not explicitly tell us everything about creation or the future, it's even limited in what it says about what we will be like in our new bodies.   I can't see that 'time will be no more';  time has to come where there is change and I'm sorry, living in one eternal moment does not appeal to me.  Time will no longer be an enemy, something that we will run out of.   This sort of came to me some time after I creid out to the Father and asked Him to reveal His character to me, who He was, regardless of how that agreed with the doctrines I had been taught.  That's when I started seeing so much more.  I don't see there being an end to ages, I don't see us, as Mormons think, being creators of our own little universes, I have no clue what it will be like.  But I do think there will always be 'work' for us to do, with constant infilling of the Spirit, no weariness, joy in companionship, who can even comprehend what we will experience in that 'sonlife'? 

So, sorry, I don't see that anyone other than Jesus Christ, has reached the stage where he is ruling or reigning anything, even himself.  I think we're right where God plans for us to be at each and every moment, but there is much more to come.

Can't give chapter and verse on that.  It's just what I intuitively grasp when I meditate on the vastness of the Father.


Peace and blessings

[ScarletWren]

Oh and Fire, don't get down on yourself, just because I didn't get where you were coming from doesn't mean others can't.  I think I saw a lot of excitement and amens from others to many of your posts. 

And sometimes we just get so excited about what we personally see, that pretty much only the awe of the Father comes through, and that's not a bad thing.

It's just the way my mind works.

[ScarletWren]

We all have something to contribute and even if nobody else understands what we attempt to convery, the Holy Spirit does.   Rock on, Fire.