Time is at hand. I come quickly

[WhiteWings]

Often I read on this board and elsewhere on internet that Revelation is something of the future.
All kind of theories.

But when it ws written nearly 2000 years ago it is filled with 'time is at hand' "quickly"
We can debate what the defenition of quickly is but I think we can agree quickly is far less that 1000 years.
Or even 100 years.
But that would mean we are living in Revelation right now.
If that's true where are the signs?

[Nathan]

How do you conclude we are living it right now?

[Taffy]

Often I read on this board and elsewhere on internet that Revelation is something of the future.
All kind of theories.

But when it ws written nearly 2000 years ago it is filled with 'time is at hand' "quickly"
We can debate what the defenition of quickly is but I think we can agree quickly is far less that 1000 years.
Or even 100 years.
But that would mean we are living in Revelation right now.
If that's true where are the signs?

Im sure many would debate Just How long is Nigh is, ?

Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical



Human Intellect Is  Of itself Is futile, as Man will reduce the Spiritual To the Natural...and It dont work That way

Kinda Pees Of those who Pride themselves with PHDs etc..but there ya go. :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

How do you conclude we are living it right now?

I don't.
I ask.

IMO 'soon' is less than 2000 years. So just looking at that I say  is right now.
But I do NOT conclude that because I'm missing the signs.
Basically I see an contradiction; and that's why started this thread.
I'm asking not proving or explaining.

[WhiteWings]

Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical

Ok, but it has to mean something.
Are the figurative things taking place right now? Or have they already taken place?

[Nathan]

This is where the battle lines seem to be drawn and names start getting rolled out (Preterists).  I firmly believe the opposite of what I used to firmly believe . .go figure.  But I threw out all of the futuristic prophecies of the rapture, second coming, Daniel's prophecy, Matthew 24 and Revelation.  For me, they are ALL warning against the passing of Israel's identity with the Old Covenant System.  The specific instructions not to seal the book, the constant proclamations of things happening soon, quickly . .to "this" generation.

In the same breath, I also believe that there is way to much emphasis put on the physical explanations of things, and not enough put on simply "believing" in faith that things said, were done, and those still living, live according to the spirit rather than natural reasoning.  Taffy explained it so smoothly . . like cuttin' butta!!

[Taffy]

Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical

Ok, but it has to mean something.
Are the figurative things taking place right now? Or have they already taken place?

Yes Of course they do..., even Numbers relate

heres Just a few Metaphors used In Rev,

Some titles Of Christ

Tree of Life.
White Stone.
hiddenManna
Alpha\ Omega
Beginning\ End
Golden Girdle
First\ Last
two edged Sword
Crown of Life
paradise of God
sword of thy Mouth
Morning sTAR
Rod of Iron

and you havent got past the second Chapter yet..

For me. These Events took Place Yesterday, To day and will Tomorrow
, always have done ,since the DAY of Salvation, Which again Is Christ, along with other Titles..TO DAY, Seventh Day, Eighth Day, Third day, To morrow , Yesterday and even The FIRST DAY

THE whole Book of scripture testifys to Him\His...why are we surprised all things Dont relate To HiM. :dontknow:

And this really be Just a very small Tip. :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

I take no absolute "one way or the other" position, as I used to be totally futurist, now I'm at least partial preterist, if not very much so...working on it...

Today I was reading this though, and I wondered, if "all" is past, then how does this fit in?  Not arguing, wondering, interested in thoughts and insights...

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:

4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.

6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev. 21

[Taffy]

I take no absolute "one way or the other" position, as I used to be totally futurist, now I'm at least partial preterist, if not very much so...working on it...

Today I was reading this though, and I wondered, if "all" is past, then how does this fit in?  Not arguing, wondering...

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:

4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.

6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Hi James

IMO..The natural Man thinks he Looks Inwards  and then  Portrays outwards, The Spiritual Man brings the Outwards , and then then Portrays Inwardly.....

so, The Heavens and Earth relate To the INWARD man, Mind and Body.

Check Genesis...the SEAS beneath  ( earthly ,old man Old C)and the Seas Above are related to the Heavens...( New Man New Mind).

so whats passed away is the OLD man , which Is earthly, relates to the Old C, as one who dies to self,..are we NOT TOLD all things New in the NEW C..new Heavens( MIND) New Earth( Body) for the FORMER, first the NATURALman ( has Passed away( and the NEW MAN appears)

Old Jerusalem was the System of the OLD C,,NEW Jerualasem IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL, The NEWC which is ChriSt in us..

  Ill Share my thought  and  pass on WHAT scripture tells us as TEARS,Crying, water of life , mourning etc....remember this IS symbolic...speaks to the INWARD MAN :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

jabcat,

What more can I add....

I'm taking no position either but IF it's now those verses should be explained away because I think we all agree there is much sorrow in this world to pick out one from the list.

If all of it has already happend then... then what?
1Co_15:22-28 ???. But we still have kingdoms or example.

[Taffy]

jabcat,

What more can I add....

I'm taking no position either but IF it's now those verses should be explained away because I think we all agree there is much sorrow in this world to pick out one from the list.

If all of it has already happend then... then what?
1Co_15:22-28 ???. But we still have kingdoms or example.

Sorrow relates To DEATH and NO HOPE, , That is Christ IN US, which In turn speaks of those who preached it, Tis Known as The Ministration of Death WW...


These words are relative to scripture which speaks REALLY of DEATH and LIFE, which come via Two Covenants...


TRUE LIFE\love OVERCOMES ALL

[WhiteWings]

Taffy,

Inward or outward....

Well, I still see inward and outward negative things in this world.
So IF revelation is taking place now it would be the 'disaster part' IMO

[Taffy]

Taffy,

Inward or outward....

Well, I still see inward and outward negative things in this world.
So IF revelation is taking place now it would be the 'disaster part' IMO

Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..and Its not personal  by me saying this :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.

For me,
It was revealed to John, the completed state of man.  It is my contention that the purpose of God's plan is to redeem man BACK to God . . . and in doing so, man is being returned back to his current state before sin entered into the picture.  The restoration of all things, which also means, we're being returned back to our original state, which is not predominantly natural as it is in us now, but predominantly spiritual as it was in the garden.

So John is now seeing this new heaven and new earth . . .my earth, my body is my field, my earth and it's being restored back to it's original state in the spirit (which is the new heaven).  My new heaven is what is now invisible that we call heaven, will once again become as visible as our natural realm is to us now.  And my new earth, will be my renewed body that will be transformed to flourish in this new heavenly state.

and the sea is no more.

If you do a study on this in Scripture, you find that the sea refers to carnal humanity.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

James 1:6
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

In the New Heaven, in this place of spiritual dominion over natural, there is no sea, there is no soulishness to create waves being tossed in the wind of doctrine.  

and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more:

this is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay.  It's all in the perspective.  My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass.  And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest.  But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning.  But here, John saw by way of Revelation.  And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.

They are come to pass.

To cling to a futuristic interpretation, there is just to much that I'd have to deny anymore . .and it's just not worth it.  So I've let go of all that I was taught, and all that I used to teach.  I've thrown away all my notes and references . . .because I realize now that "this" generation is a generation of pioneers to proclaim it is finished . . .in the spirit.  But those that have written their doctrates and philosophies out in the sidelines of the Bibles, had much knowledge, but little revelation.  And it's not because they were less spiritual . . . in fact, I think I can say this with some confidence . .they were very much more diligent in studying their Bibles than I ever could be.  But the "time" for all things to be revealed had not yet begun with them to the extent that we're seeing today.

I for one am much more willing to jump in with both feet and IN FAITH beleive that the grace of God is much more forgiving than the limitations of the minds of men on these matters.

I just read Taffy's stuff . . . this is getting a bit eerie bro.

[Taffy]

WW.

Before I may get Misunderstood....which for me Comes easy :laughing7:

WE are ALL dead Men WALKING, after the Flesh,irrespective , Death is a Reality of Life, if youve not had the Pleasure of it yet, one day IT WILL come...

The Hope we Have is IN US,  then  this can become the Reality to what who life is,..Theres a Lot more to it it, but..thats the basics.

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Hi Nat

Theres Many avenues which are able to Bring us to the Core, Yours is the Tabernacle , and I agree, mine has always been  law V Grace, and those who fall from it...but the cores the same..it all comes INWARDS...to the INNER MAN, I was explaining  this to someone the other day, we are Each given a Bit of the Picture , BUT the THEMES the same.

Errie No..awesome YES. :icon_flower:

[Molly]

this is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay.  It's all in the perspective.  My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass.  And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest.  But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning.  But here, John saw by way of Revelation.  And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.

I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality.  This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity.  Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?

I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up!  Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.

Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world.   But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.

[WhiteWings]

Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..

Hello ,

What's the use of that whole Revelation book then?

It's not literal.
It's not outside.
It's not inside either because nobody notices it.
So it's best to burn the whole book and spend your time on other parts of the Bible?

God: Hi Paulie dude! Write down this stuff that means nothing. It's so funny seeing those peeps down there sweat because of a great unsolvable riddle!  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..

Hello ,

What's the use of that whole Revelation book then?

It's not literal.
It's not outside.
It's not inside either because nobody notices it.
So it's best to burn the whole book and spend your time on other parts of the Bible?

God: Hi Paulie dude! Write down this stuff that means nothing. It's so funny seeing those peeps down there sweat because of a great unsolvable riddle!  :laughing7:

GOD declares the END before the Beginning( Which is Christ) ? ,in that we Have Genesis which Is the End  and the Beginning  In Revelation. ,which MAKES THEM BOTH  ,a Witness to the END and the Beginning, which They are Both anyways.... :cloud9: Tis How I see thus far

Lets Throw out what bears Witness to it, Genesis..., then the Four Gospels, then youll find youll have to throw the whole book to BECAUSE that TOO bears Witness to Him


So In Summary ,No lets NOT throw it out....because thats what It is,,a SUMMARY of the LIFE and Times Of Christ Jesus, Much of which youll find Testified in the FOUR Gospels...witnessed eslewhere


Scriptures Fundamently testifies to LAW, The old Covenant, and The New Covenant....,

So why ,would The Book of Revelation be a BOOK out there ON its OWN?...totally IRRELAVANT to other BOOKS...?

IS that logical,?:

For me WW No it isnt


Christ words are LIFE,not death , they too Inc , Death ,Destruction,Judgment ,punishment, Chastisment, et all

But each to their own WW :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

this is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay.  It's all in the perspective.  My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass.  And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest.  But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning.  But here, John saw by way of Revelation.  And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.

I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality.  This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity.  Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?

I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up!  Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.

Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world.   But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.

Out of touch with reality?? Is that how this comes across???  The PURPOSE for walking in the spirit is so that you can SEE those things that are NOT and call them out from the END to where you ARE so that that which is not . . .can BECOME!  Of course be aware of the now, but that's not my dwelling place.  It's a stepping stone as well as a divine appointment where God has presented me with an opportunity to release his kingdom in heaven (spirit) upon my earth (natural).  But I can't "do" that if I can't see the spiritual end in the first place.

[martincisneros]

You've got a description of a thousand year time period, and perhaps a two thousand year time period because you've got folks reigning for a thousand years, and then a reference to them reigning for a thousand years during which the Second Death has no power over them.  Origen read it that way and so did some of the other Church Fathers.  Some people say he didn't believe in a literal millenium, but from what I've read it seems like he didn't believe in premillenialism but was a very firm postmillenialist.  He was an enormous optimist about the conquest of the world through the preaching of the Gospel.  That's inherently postmillenialism and is never premillenialism or amillenialism when you find that.  The rest of their theological principles will inevitably bare that out over the course of everything you can find by them.

Some people will say that thousand never means a literal thousand in Scripture, but as I was quickly reading through many of the 439 references to the word "thousand" at biblegateway.com [in the KJV] I was seeing a whole lot of them that were most emphatically very, very literal.  But there were also a few cases where it was simply an indefinitely large number, like someone wishing someone a well and prosperous geneology into the indefinite future.  So, if you try to base anything definitive on the book around the number "thousand," then on that alone you could conclude either preterism or the futurist interpretations as being equally valid.  Again, on that alone 'cause it proves nothing in the behalf of either system of interpretation.  The issue is going to be the rest of the details rather than relative points in time.  It says in Hebrews that Jesus will be comin' back in a little while, but the context clearly indicates an expectation of His Bodily return rather than His coming in judgment in 70AD in the way that Father did many times in the Old Testament because Hebrews 9 says that when that coming that that author was anticipating would happen, it wouldn't be a dealing with sin but a bringing of bodily salvation to those that are expecting him. 

I say bodily because the whole book is about the deliverance of the believer's body through the sacrifice of the One's Body, Jesus Christ.  That's not the only thing it's about.  It gets into issues of atonement and Old Testament types and shadows of the New Covenant realities that are only hinted at in Ephesians, but the retraining of the 5 physical senses in this world to discern the difference between good and evil and to know to choose the good and reject the evil is a strong under current of the book that's missed by many, many believers. 

Hebrews places the physical return of Christ into the very near future from when it was written, and yet we know from countless other Scriptures that He doesn't come back until the New Earth because as Hebrews says that if He were on earth He couldn't be a High Priest, the same Scriptures indicate that if He were on the present earth then He couldn't be a King either because he's a descendant of Jeconiah, according to Matthew 1:11, and none of Jeconiah's descendants can ever ever reign on the present earth by the direct judgment of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament.  So, you've got to cleanse this whole thing, including all of those written records, in the fire of 2Peter 3 and then His reign on earth would be legit.

Nothing can really be determined by the time statements in the book of Revelation alone.  It's one of those issues that you can only come to a satisfactory answer to with a thorough knowledge of the entire Bible and of the entire Holy Spirit (John 16:13-15).  You can count on the Holy Spirit's 100% obedience to John 16:13-15.  You've just got to stay full of the Word where you can hear, according to the Gospel of John, Colossians, 1Timothy, 2Timothy, 2Peter, 1John, 2John, and 3John.

[Molly]

this is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay.  It's all in the perspective.  My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass.  And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest.  But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning.  But here, John saw by way of Revelation.  And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.

I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality.  This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity.  Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?

I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up!  Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.

Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world.   But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.

Out of touch with reality?? Is that how this comes across???  The PURPOSE for walking in the spirit is so that you can SEE those things that are NOT and call them out from the END to where you ARE so that that which is not . . .can BECOME!  Of course be aware of the now, but that's not my dwelling place.  It's a stepping stone as well as a divine appointment where God has presented me with an opportunity to release his kingdom in heaven (spirit) upon my earth (natural).  But I can't "do" that if I can't see the spiritual end in the first place.

Ok.  I think I misunderstood what you were saying.  If you are talking about making things happen for God in this world, then I agree with you.  This world needs help, fast!

[WhiteWings]

GOD declares the END before the Beginning( Which is Christ) ? ,in that we Have Genesis which Is the End  and the Beginning  In Revelation. ,which MAKES THEM BOTH  ,a Witness to the END and the Beginning, which They are Both anyways.... :cloud9: Tis How I see thus far

I see it differently.
It's like thsoe movies that start with showing the hero being shot. Then the next scene is "2 years ago"[/quote]

So why ,would The Book of Revelation be a BOOK out there ON its OWN?...totally IRRELAVANT to other BOOKS...?

IS that logical,?:

It isn't logical. It isn't logical either that it is unuseble because  it can't be understood.

[Molly]

Hebrews places the physical return of Christ into the very near future from when it was written, and yet we know from countless other Scriptures that He doesn't come back until the New Earth because as Hebrews says that if He were on earth He couldn't be a High Priest, the same Scriptures indicate that if He were on the present earth then He couldn't be a King either because he's a descendant of Jeconiah, according to Matthew 1:11, and none of Jeconiah's descendants can ever ever reign on the present earth by the direct judgment of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament.  So, you've got to cleanse this whole thing, including all of those written records, in the fire of 2Peter 3 and then His reign on earth would be legit.

Martin, could you give scripture that explains what you are talking about here?  I'm not aware of what you are saying.

It seems like the covenant with David would over ride anything else.  Also, this idea that Christ can't be High Priest if he were on earth--?  He is a priest forever.  So does that mean he will never return to earth?

[Taffy]

It isn't logical. It isn't logical either that it is unuseble because  it can't be understood

Its Only seems Illogical because its Figuarative...Even the Mysteries of the Kingdom were First preached In parables, Christ Spoke Not  A word to the Public using ANYTHING Else...,Now if they were spoke in Parabolic form which speaks of ONLY Him,His,..Moving from Law to Grace, AS HE is the Kingdom Of God, then why is It not logical to think the Revelation is anything else,? Where Christ says," If You can UNDERSTAND ONE parable you can Understand them all"..?

Extremely Logical To me, so simple a Child could reason with it. :icon_flower: