Often I read on this board and elsewhere on internet that Revelation is something of the future.
All kind of theories.
But when it ws written nearly 2000 years ago it is filled with 'time is at hand' "quickly"
We can debate what the defenition of quickly is but I think we can agree quickly is far less that 1000 years.
Or even 100 years.
But that would mean we are living in Revelation right now.
If that's true where are the signs?
How do you conclude we are living it right now?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 15, 2008, 11:12:38 PM
Often I read on this board and elsewhere on internet that Revelation is something of the future.
All kind of theories.
But when it ws written nearly 2000 years ago it is filled with 'time is at hand' "quickly"
We can debate what the defenition of quickly is but I think we can agree quickly is far less that 1000 years.
Or even 100 years.
But that would mean we are living in Revelation right now.
If that's true where are the signs?
Im sure many would debate Just How long is Nigh is, ?
Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical
Human Intellect Is
Of itself Is futile, as Man will reduce the Spiritual To the Natural...and It dont work That way
Kinda Pees Of those who Pride themselves with PHDs etc..but there ya go. :icon_king:
Quote from: Nathan on December 15, 2008, 11:39:42 PM
How do you conclude we are living it right now?
I don't.
I ask.
IMO 'soon' is less than 2000 years. So just looking at that I say is right now.
But I do NOT conclude that because I'm missing the signs.
Basically I see an contradiction; and that's why started this thread.
I'm asking not proving or explaining.
Quote from: Taffy on December 15, 2008, 11:45:34 PM
Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical
Ok, but it has to mean something.
Are the figurative things taking place right now? Or have they already taken place?
This is where the battle lines seem to be drawn and names start getting rolled out (Preterists). I firmly believe the opposite of what I used to firmly believe . .go figure. But I threw out all of the futuristic prophecies of the rapture, second coming, Daniel's prophecy, Matthew 24 and Revelation. For me, they are ALL warning against the passing of Israel's identity with the Old Covenant System. The specific instructions not to seal the book, the constant proclamations of things happening soon, quickly . .to "this" generation.
In the same breath, I also believe that there is way to much emphasis put on the physical explanations of things, and not enough put on simply "believing" in faith that things said, were done, and those still living, live according to the spirit rather than natural reasoning. Taffy explained it so smoothly . . like cuttin' butta!!
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 12:02:58 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 15, 2008, 11:45:34 PM
Signs are what They are .SYMBOLS,..but after his Language Not Ours...He uses the NATURAL very Much to explain the Spiritual,....we call IT figurative , metaphorical
Ok, but it has to mean something.
Are the figurative things taking place right now? Or have they already taken place?
Yes Of course they do..., even Numbers relate
heres Just a few Metaphors used In Rev,
Some titles Of Christ
Tree of Life.
White Stone.
hiddenManna
Alpha\ Omega
Beginning\ End
Golden Girdle
First\ Last
two edged Sword
Crown of Life
paradise of God
sword of thy Mouth
Morning sTAR
Rod of Iron
and you havent got past the second Chapter yet..
For me. These Events took Place Yesterday, To day and will Tomorrow
, always have done ,since the DAY of Salvation, Which again Is Christ, along with other Titles..TO DAY, Seventh Day, Eighth Day, Third day, To morrow , Yesterday and even The FIRST DAY
THE whole Book of scripture testifys to Him\His...why are we surprised all things Dont relate To HiM. :dontknow:
And this really be Just a very small Tip. :icon_flower:
I take no absolute "one way or the other" position, as I used to be totally futurist, now I'm at least partial preterist, if not very much so...working on it...
Today I was reading this though, and I wondered, if "all" is past, then how does this fit in? Not arguing, wondering, interested in thoughts and insights...
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.
6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev. 21
Quote from: jabcat on December 16, 2008, 01:17:00 AM
I take no absolute "one way or the other" position, as I used to be totally futurist, now I'm at least partial preterist, if not very much so...working on it...
Today I was reading this though, and I wondered, if "all" is past, then how does this fit in? Not arguing, wondering...
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.
6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Hi James
IMO..The natural Man thinks he Looks Inwards and then Portrays outwards, The Spiritual Man brings the Outwards , and then then Portrays Inwardly.....
so, The Heavens and Earth relate To the INWARD man, Mind and Body.
Check Genesis...the SEAS beneath ( earthly ,old man Old C)and the Seas Above are related to the Heavens...( New Man New Mind).
so whats passed away is the OLD man , which Is earthly, relates to the Old C, as one who dies to self,..are we NOT TOLD all things New in the NEW C..new Heavens( MIND) New Earth( Body) for the FORMER, first the NATURALman ( has Passed away( and the NEW MAN appears)
Old Jerusalem was the System of the OLD C,,NEW Jerualasem IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL, The NEWC which is ChriSt in us..
Ill Share my thought and pass on WHAT scripture tells us as TEARS,Crying, water of life , mourning etc....remember this IS symbolic...speaks to the INWARD MAN :icon_flower:
jabcat,
What more can I add....
I'm taking no position either but IF it's now those verses should be explained away because I think we all agree there is much sorrow in this world to pick out one from the list.
If all of it has already happend then... then what?
1Co_15:22-28 ???. But we still have kingdoms or example.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 01:32:25 AM
jabcat,
What more can I add....
I'm taking no position either but IF it's now those verses should be explained away because I think we all agree there is much sorrow in this world to pick out one from the list.
If all of it has already happend then... then what?
1Co_15:22-28 ???. But we still have kingdoms or example.
Sorrow relates To DEATH and NO HOPE, , That is Christ IN US, which In turn speaks of those who preached it, Tis Known as The Ministration of Death WW...
These words are relative to scripture which speaks REALLY of DEATH and LIFE, which come via Two Covenants...
TRUE LIFE\love OVERCOMES ALL
Taffy,
Inward or outward....
Well, I still see inward and outward negative things in this world.
So IF revelation is taking place now it would be the 'disaster part' IMO
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 01:43:37 AM
Taffy,
Inward or outward....
Well, I still see inward and outward negative things in this world.
So IF revelation is taking place now it would be the 'disaster part' IMO
Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..and Its not personal by me saying this :icon_flower:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
For me,
It was revealed to John, the completed state of man. It is my contention that the purpose of God's plan is to redeem man BACK to God . . . and in doing so, man is being returned back to his current state before sin entered into the picture. The restoration of all things, which also means, we're being returned back to our original state, which is not predominantly natural as it is in us now, but predominantly spiritual as it was in the garden.
So John is now seeing this new heaven and new earth . . .my earth, my body is my field, my earth and it's being restored back to it's original state in the spirit (which is the new heaven). My new heaven is what is now invisible that we call heaven, will once again become as visible as our natural realm is to us now. And my new earth, will be my renewed body that will be transformed to flourish in this new heavenly state.
and the sea is no more.
If you do a study on this in Scripture, you find that the sea refers to carnal humanity.
Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
James 1:6
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
In the New Heaven, in this place of spiritual dominion over natural, there is no sea, there is no soulishness to create waves being tossed in the wind of doctrine.
and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more:
this is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay. It's all in the perspective. My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass. And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest. But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning. But here, John saw by way of Revelation. And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.
They are come to pass.
To cling to a futuristic interpretation, there is just to much that I'd have to deny anymore . .and it's just not worth it. So I've let go of all that I was taught, and all that I used to teach. I've thrown away all my notes and references . . .because I realize now that "this" generation is a generation of pioneers to proclaim it is finished . . .in the spirit. But those that have written their doctrates and philosophies out in the sidelines of the Bibles, had much knowledge, but little revelation. And it's not because they were less spiritual . . . in fact, I think I can say this with some confidence . .they were very much more diligent in studying their Bibles than I ever could be. But the "time" for all things to be revealed had not yet begun with them to the extent that we're seeing today.
I for one am much more willing to jump in with both feet and IN FAITH beleive that the grace of God is much more forgiving than the limitations of the minds of men on these matters.
I just read Taffy's stuff . . . this is getting a bit eerie bro.
WW.
Before I may get Misunderstood....which for me Comes easy :laughing7:
WE are ALL dead Men WALKING, after the Flesh,irrespective , Death is a Reality of Life, if youve not had the Pleasure of it yet, one day IT WILL come...
The Hope we Have is IN US, then this can become the Reality to what who life is,..Theres a Lot more to it it, but..thats the basics.
:icon_flower:
Hi Nat
Theres Many avenues which are able to Bring us to the Core, Yours is the Tabernacle , and I agree, mine has always been law V Grace, and those who fall from it...but the cores the same..it all comes INWARDS...to the INNER MAN, I was explaining this to someone the other day, we are Each given a Bit of the Picture , BUT the THEMES the same.
Errie No..awesome YES. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathanthis is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay. It's all in the perspective. My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass. And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest. But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning. But here, John saw by way of Revelation. And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.
I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality. This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity. Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?
I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up! Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.
Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world. But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..
Hello ,
What's the use of that whole Revelation book then?
It's not literal.
It's not outside.
It's not inside either because nobody notices it.
So it's best to burn the whole book and spend your time on other parts of the Bible?
God: Hi Paulie dude! Write down this stuff that means nothing. It's so funny seeing those peeps down there sweat because of a great unsolvable riddle! :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 02:09:07 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..
Hello ,
What's the use of that whole Revelation book then?
It's not literal.
It's not outside.
It's not inside either because nobody notices it.
So it's best to burn the whole book and spend your time on other parts of the Bible?
God: Hi Paulie dude! Write down this stuff that means nothing. It's so funny seeing those peeps down there sweat because of a great unsolvable riddle! :laughing7:
GOD declares the END before the Beginning( Which is Christ) ? ,in that we Have Genesis which Is the End and the Beginning In Revelation. ,which MAKES THEM BOTH ,a Witness to the END and the Beginning, which They are Both anyways.... :cloud9: Tis How I see thus far
Lets Throw out what bears Witness to it, Genesis..., then the Four Gospels, then youll find youll have to throw the whole book to BECAUSE that TOO bears Witness to Him
So In Summary ,No lets NOT throw it out....because thats what It is,,a SUMMARY of the LIFE and Times Of Christ Jesus, Much of which youll find Testified in the FOUR Gospels...witnessed eslewhere
Scriptures Fundamently testifies to LAW, The old Covenant, and The New Covenant....,
So why ,would The Book of Revelation be a BOOK out there ON its OWN?...totally IRRELAVANT to other BOOKS...?
IS that logical,?:
For me WW No it isnt
Christ words are LIFE,not death , they too Inc , Death ,Destruction,Judgment ,punishment, Chastisment, et all
But each to their own WW :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 02:07:14 AM
Quote from: Nathanthis is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay. It's all in the perspective. My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass. And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest. But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning. But here, John saw by way of Revelation. And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.
I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality. This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity. Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?
I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up! Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.
Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world. But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.
Out of touch with reality?? Is that how this comes across??? The PURPOSE for walking in the spirit is so that you can SEE those things that are NOT and call them out from the END to where you ARE so that that which is not . . .can BECOME! Of course be aware of the now, but that's not my dwelling place. It's a stepping stone as well as a divine appointment where God has presented me with an opportunity to release his kingdom in heaven (spirit) upon my earth (natural). But I can't "do" that if I can't see the spiritual end in the first place.
You've got a description of a thousand year time period, and perhaps a two thousand year time period because you've got folks reigning for a thousand years, and then a reference to them reigning for a thousand years during which the Second Death has no power over them. Origen read it that way and so did some of the other Church Fathers. Some people say he didn't believe in a literal millenium, but from what I've read it seems like he didn't believe in premillenialism but was a very firm postmillenialist. He was an enormous optimist about the conquest of the world through the preaching of the Gospel. That's inherently postmillenialism and is never premillenialism or amillenialism when you find that. The rest of their theological principles will inevitably bare that out over the course of everything you can find by them.
Some people will say that thousand never means a literal thousand in Scripture, but as I was quickly reading through many of the 439 references to the word "thousand" at biblegateway.com [in the KJV] I was seeing a whole lot of them that were most emphatically very, very literal. But there were also a few cases where it was simply an indefinitely large number, like someone wishing someone a well and prosperous geneology into the indefinite future. So, if you try to base anything definitive on the book around the number "thousand," then on that alone you could conclude either preterism or the futurist interpretations as being equally valid. Again, on that alone 'cause it proves nothing in the behalf of either system of interpretation. The issue is going to be the rest of the details rather than relative points in time. It says in Hebrews that Jesus will be comin' back in a little while, but the context clearly indicates an expectation of His Bodily return rather than His coming in judgment in 70AD in the way that Father did many times in the Old Testament because Hebrews 9 says that when that coming that that author was anticipating would happen, it wouldn't be a dealing with sin but a bringing of bodily salvation to those that are expecting him.
I say bodily because the whole book is about the deliverance of the believer's body through the sacrifice of the One's Body, Jesus Christ. That's not the only thing it's about. It gets into issues of atonement and Old Testament types and shadows of the New Covenant realities that are only hinted at in Ephesians, but the retraining of the 5 physical senses in this world to discern the difference between good and evil and to know to choose the good and reject the evil is a strong under current of the book that's missed by many, many believers.
Hebrews places the physical return of Christ into the very near future from when it was written, and yet we know from countless other Scriptures that He doesn't come back until the New Earth because as Hebrews says that if He were on earth He couldn't be a High Priest, the same Scriptures indicate that if He were on the present earth then He couldn't be a King either because he's a descendant of Jeconiah, according to Matthew 1:11, and none of Jeconiah's descendants can ever ever reign on the present earth by the direct judgment of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament. So, you've got to cleanse this whole thing, including all of those written records, in the fire of 2Peter 3 and then His reign on earth would be legit.
Nothing can really be determined by the time statements in the book of Revelation alone. It's one of those issues that you can only come to a satisfactory answer to with a thorough knowledge of the entire Bible and of the entire Holy Spirit (John 16:13-15). You can count on the Holy Spirit's 100% obedience to John 16:13-15. You've just got to stay full of the Word where you can hear, according to the Gospel of John, Colossians, 1Timothy, 2Timothy, 2Peter, 1John, 2John, and 3John.
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 02:50:31 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 02:07:14 AM
Quote from: Nathanthis is why I do stress the importance of walking in the spirit . . .because if you walk in the natural realm, all you will see is death and decay. It's all in the perspective. My mind will argue and try to use the current state around me as evidence that the Word is not true, or has not come to pass. And if it has not come to pass, then I am not who God has proclaimed me to be, a king and a priest. But when you allow yourself to be transformed with a renewed mind, you'll find that it is true, you really can see the end from the beginning and it didn't come by the same way that you were taught before your mind was renewed, by natural effort, labor and reasoning. But here, John saw by way of Revelation. And in this realm, there is no dying, crying, or sighing, only flying.
I don't think it behooves us to be too out of touch with reality. This, again, comes to passive versus active Christianity. Do I just look around at death, destruction, and mayhem by satan and his minions, and say, 'it is all good'?
I think the operable term for everyone is Wake Up! Repent, and seek the kingdom of God.
Only then can we be his servants, priests, and kings in this world. But, if it were all done in reality, there wouldn't be any need for servants, priests, and kings.
Out of touch with reality?? Is that how this comes across??? The PURPOSE for walking in the spirit is so that you can SEE those things that are NOT and call them out from the END to where you ARE so that that which is not . . .can BECOME! Of course be aware of the now, but that's not my dwelling place. It's a stepping stone as well as a divine appointment where God has presented me with an opportunity to release his kingdom in heaven (spirit) upon my earth (natural). But I can't "do" that if I can't see the spiritual end in the first place.
Ok. I think I misunderstood what you were saying. If you are talking about making things happen for God in this world, then I agree with you. This world needs help, fast!
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 02:29:31 AM
GOD declares the END before the Beginning( Which is Christ) ? ,in that we Have Genesis which Is the End and the Beginning In Revelation. ,which MAKES THEM BOTH ,a Witness to the END and the Beginning, which They are Both anyways.... :cloud9: Tis How I see thus far
I see it differently.
It's like thsoe movies that start with showing the hero being shot. Then the next scene is "2 years ago"[/quote]
QuoteSo why ,would The Book of Revelation be a BOOK out there ON its OWN?...totally IRRELAVANT to other BOOKS...?
IS that logical,?:
It isn't logical. It isn't logical either that it is unuseble because it can't be understood.
Quote from: MartinHebrews places the physical return of Christ into the very near future from when it was written, and yet we know from countless other Scriptures that He doesn't come back until the New Earth because as Hebrews says that if He were on earth He couldn't be a High Priest, the same Scriptures indicate that if He were on the present earth then He couldn't be a King either because he's a descendant of Jeconiah, according to Matthew 1:11, and none of Jeconiah's descendants can ever ever reign on the present earth by the direct judgment of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament. So, you've got to cleanse this whole thing, including all of those written records, in the fire of 2Peter 3 and then His reign on earth would be legit.
Martin, could you give scripture that explains what you are talking about here? I'm not aware of what you are saying.
It seems like the covenant with David would over ride anything else. Also, this idea that Christ can't be High Priest if he were on earth--? He is a priest forever. So does that mean he will never return to earth?
QuoteIt isn't logical. It isn't logical either that it is unuseble because it can't be understood
Its Only seems Illogical because its Figuarative...Even the Mysteries of the Kingdom were First preached In parables, Christ Spoke Not
A word to the Public using ANYTHING Else...,Now if they were spoke in Parabolic form which speaks of ONLY Him,His,..Moving from Law to Grace, AS HE is the Kingdom Of God, then why is It not logical to think the Revelation is anything else,? Where Christ says," If You can UNDERSTAND ONE parable you can Understand them all"..?
Extremely Logical To me, so simple a Child could reason with it. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 12:24:56 PM
QuoteIt isn't logical. It isn't logical either that it is unuseble because it can't be understood
Its Only seems Illogical because its Figuarative...
Extremely Logical To me, so simple a Child could reason with it. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 01:48:14 AM
Bud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..
QuoteBud you reason after the Flesh, Not after HIM...I dont mean to be anything that I understand it..
Meaning that you reason by that which is Not figurative \ metaphorical or parabolic. :icon_flower:
When I ask what the non figurative meaning is you answer that you don't understand it either.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 12:44:29 PM
When I ask what the non figurative meaning is you answer that you don't understand it either.
Extremely Logical To me, so simple a Child could reason with it.
The conclusion of my statement, Not the Book itself :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on December 16, 2008, 12:47:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 12:44:29 PM
When I ask what the non figurative meaning is you answer that you don't understand it either.
Extremely Logical To me, so simple a Child could reason with it.
The conclusion of my statement, Not the Book itself :thumbsup:
oppps ya Must have edited ya Post just as I was responding
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 12:23:16 PM
Martin, could you give scripture that explains what you are talking about here? I'm not aware of what you are saying.
It seems like the covenant with David would over ride anything else. Also, this idea that Christ can't be High Priest if he were on earth--? He is a priest forever. So does that mean he will never return to earth?
Jeconiah is designated by three names in the Old Testament. He is called "Jehoiachin" (2 Kgs. 24:6; 2 Chron. 36:8), "Jeconiah" (1 Chron. 3:16-17; Jer. 24:1), and "Coniah" (Jer. 22:24,28; 37:1). In Matthew's genealogy, the Greek form, "Jechonias," is found (1:11-12).
The curse on this descendant of David is in Jeremiah 22:30, that none of his seed would rule upon the throne. But abolish the present form of heaven and earth and the difficulty is removed. Christ Jesus is only a high priest to the age when a high priest is no longer needed, which would be 1Corinthians 15:28. The new birth is a completed birth and not a mutilated half birth like we got after we were cast from Eden. For whatever reason we were created of corruptible seed in Genesis, but 1Peter 1:23 says that our newborn selves are born again by incorruptible seed. If Christ Jesus is only King to the ages of ages, then His High Priesthood would have to be of the same duration, as Hebrews bares out because it's a unified Kingship/Priesthood after the precise [to the letter] pattern and orders from God to Melchezedec in Genesis. His ongoing cleansing, reconciliation, and subjecting work does come to a close and this involves His Priesthood in a special way along with His Kingship.
Christ Jesus returns to raise the just and the unjust from the dead at the close of Revelation 20 and the start of Revelation 21. And He makes all of us immortal immediately before delivering up the Kingdom to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28 when He hands in His resignation, as when Washington delivered the command of the Army back to Congress at the close of the American Revolutionary War and forever sealed a greater place of honor for himself in the eyes of the people [and of history] in a unique way that he'd of never achieved had he become our new Caesar. In that way, Washington was a type of Christ although some may find it sacreligious to find a type that's extrabiblical. He held it all together through the strength of his character, and God's grace, inspite of seemingly endless defeat, knowing that the important battle was the final one. He wore down the enemy until ultimately all things were literally his and without making the mistake of his predecessors [throughout all of history] when in possession of absolute power he proved himself the humblest man of modern history by giving it all back to God and to the people he'd served all of his life. And he wasn't loved less for it. He was loved all the more for it -- much more than he could have ever thought possible. It's about 4:59am where I'm at, so I've got to call it a night 'cause I've got a very busy week. I hope to add more comments/Scriptures later.
QuoteWhen I ask what the non figurative meaning is you answer that you don't understand it either.
For me There are Mulitple Symbols , its sort Building up another Vocabulary ,A symbol here and then a Symbol there.
I believe the framework speaks of the Natural man becoming a Spiritual Man, moving from Death to Life ,By which ALL symbols explain the same .
Just why would Christ have SO MANY different Titles, Why Not Just Have One , well he does Have One "The Appointed one" .but each explain a Little more of His charachter.
http://www.tentmaker.org/lists/names.html
Quote from: martincisneros on December 16, 2008, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 16, 2008, 12:23:16 PM
Martin, could you give scripture that explains what you are talking about here? I'm not aware of what you are saying.
It seems like the covenant with David would over ride anything else. Also, this idea that Christ can't be High Priest if he were on earth--? He is a priest forever. So does that mean he will never return to earth?
Jeconiah is designated by three names in the Old Testament. He is called "Jehoiachin" (2 Kgs. 24:6; 2 Chron. 36:8), "Jeconiah" (1 Chron. 3:16-17; Jer. 24:1), and "Coniah" (Jer. 22:24,28; 37:1). In Matthew's genealogy, the Greek form, "Jechonias," is found (1:11-12).
The curse on this descendant of David is in Jeremiah 22:30, that none of his seed would rule upon the throne. But abolish the present form of heaven and earth and the difficulty is removed. Christ Jesus is only a high priest to the age when a high priest is no longer needed, which would be 1Corinthians 15:28. The new birth is a completed birth and not a mutilated half birth like we got after we were cast from Eden. For whatever reason we were created of corruptible seed in Genesis, but 1Peter 1:23 says that our newborn selves are born again by incorruptible seed. If Christ Jesus is only King to the ages of ages, then His High Priesthood would have to be of the same duration, as Hebrews bares out because it's a unified Kingship/Priesthood after the precise [to the letter] pattern and orders from God to Melchezedec in Genesis. His ongoing cleansing, reconciliation, and subjecting work does come to a close and this involves His Priesthood in a special way along with His Kingship.
Christ Jesus returns to raise the just and the unjust from the dead at the close of Revelation 20 and the start of Revelation 21. And He makes all of us immortal immediately before delivering up the Kingdom to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28 when He hands in His resignation, as when Washington delivered the command of the Army back to Congress at the close of the American Revolutionary War and forever sealed a greater place of honor for himself in the eyes of the people [and of history] in a unique way that he'd of never achieved had he become our new Caesar. In that way, Washington was a type of Christ although some may find it sacreligious to find a type that's extrabiblical. He held it all together through the strength of his character, and God's grace, inspite of seemingly endless defeat, knowing that the important battle was the final one. He wore down the enemy until ultimately all things were literally his and without making the mistake of his predecessors [throughout all of history] when in possession of absolute power he proved himself the humblest man of modern history by giving it all back to God and to the people he'd served all of his life. And he wasn't loved less for it. He was loved all the more for it -- much more than he could have ever thought possible. It's about 4:59am where I'm at, so I've got to call it a night 'cause I've got a very busy week. I hope to add more comments/Scriptures later.
I take this idea of Christ "not" being a high priest now to mean that again, he's not coming to fill a natural seat. There are already high priests here in the flesh and that was never his purpose, to literally be apointed as a physical priest . . . but instead of being in the levitical priesthood (natural), he is of the line of Melchezedek . . .which is the spiritual priesthood. And because he "has" filled that seat, and we are grafted into him, we can now also be called kings and priests ourselves. . . .spiritually speaking, not naturally.
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 03:47:56 PM
but instead of being in the levitical priesthood (natural), he is of the line of Melchezedek . . .which is the spiritual priesthood. And because he "has" filled that seat, and we are grafted into him, we can now also be called kings and priests ourselves. . . .spiritually speaking, not naturally.
So the 1000 year reign (literally 1000 years or not) is right now taking place with Christians as spiritual kings. All other people spiritually dead (those not resurected from the grave).
Is that a correct summary?
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 16, 2008, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: Nathan on December 16, 2008, 03:47:56 PM
but instead of being in the levitical priesthood (natural), he is of the line of Melchezedek . . .which is the spiritual priesthood. And because he "has" filled that seat, and we are grafted into him, we can now also be called kings and priests ourselves. . . .spiritually speaking, not naturally.
So the 1000 year reign (literally 1000 years or not) is right now taking place with Christians as spiritual kings. All other people spiritually dead (those not resurected from the grave).
Is that a correct summary?
For me, the 1000 year reign is a realm, not an event in time. It's the Holy of holies. It's the position and person of rest. There are many Christians that are still trying to mature in labor so no, this isn't something all Christians have experienced. They "can", but they first need to lay their heads down . .as Jacob did when he found "the place" and laid his head upon "the rock" and when he did, all of heaven opened up to his understanding and revealed to him God was the god of the House, and he changed the name of his dwelling place (identity) from Bethel (house of God) to El Bethel (God of the house of God).
Just as the tabernacle had more than one veil to it, so does our procession in Christ. There are still many who have chosen to serve Christ that still have veils over their minds . . .Scripture backs this up as well.
2 Corinthians 3
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
If I have time today, I want to start a new thread dealing with the difference between a servant and a bondservant . . . just as not all 12 disciples had the honor to see Christ in his glorified state, not all of the church is willing to find this place of rest and see the completed work in the spirit.
Quote from: NathanFor me, the 1000 year reign is a realm, not an event in time. It's the Holy of holies. It's the position and person of rest. There are many Christians that are still trying to mature in labor so no, this isn't something all Christians have experienced. They "can", but they first need to lay their heads down . .as Jacob did when he found "the place" and laid his head upon "the rock" and when he did, all of heaven opened up to his understanding and revealed to him God was the god of the House, and he changed the name of his dwelling place (identity) from Bethel (house of God) to El Bethel (God of the house of God).
Nathan, since the seventh day is the day of rest, and since 1000 years are as a day to the LORD, and since we are six thousand years from Adam, couldn't us literal folks postulate we are entering into the thousand years of rest, that is, entering the seventh day, that is, entering into the millenium reign of Christ, right about now?
You're probably not the one to ask about this, but I could hope...
YES, YES AND YESSSSSSS!!! Exactly right! It's what I see and say all along!! "That's" what is bringing about change to the bride . . .she's seeing the setting of the son upon the days of labor and the dawning of a NEW DAY upon the Sabbath, the day of REST! Christ is the day! He is the Sabbath! In this Sabbath day, Christ is manifesting himself to a bride in ways as never before. There is an expansion of the reality of who Christ is in the minds of man BECAUSE the timetable for the SABBATH Day has come.
I believe this interest in UR is a part of that. Truth is being revealed to the hearts of man . . .all in preparation for the full and complete manifestation of Christ himself. That's why I say we are pioneers . .we are the first generation . .we are in the "dawning" of this great sweep of change that's coming to the church.
And many will also argue that our calendar is not accurate . . .that the Jewish calendar is more accurate and it's hundreds of years off from ours . . .fine . . .let them argue that because as long as they choose to live in the natural realm of things, they'll remain in the days of labor themselves. But for those who choose to simply open their wings and LET the wind of the spirit LIFT, elevate them into the realm of the upper room, the outpouring of spirit and fire into the bride making her spotless and without wrinkle . . .spotless . . . a picture of purification . .without wrinkle . . .bringing us out of our old man funk and into our youthfulness and innocence of vibrant life IN Christ.
This day is a Spiritual Sabbath day and anyone who lets themselves be carried in the spirit will experience this position, this person of Rest in ALL that they do . . . including their study habits. You can put your confidence in a written translation of Truth that may or may not be accurate if you want . . . but I choose to read the Word and embrace the Word that is no longer written on stone, but is written in the HEARTS (spirit) of men. It is there that dominion returns to the body over their earth. "See" it in the spirit, call it out in the flesh and walk in it through faith.
QuoteNathan, since the seventh day is the day of rest, and since 1000 years are as a day to the LORD, and since we are six thousand years from Adam, couldn't us literal folks postulate we are entering into the thousand years of rest, that is, entering the seventh day, that is, entering into the millenium reign of Christ, right about now?
You're probably not the one to ask about this, but I could hope
The same Day as This Molly...This Is Christ, This is Not stating The Day of salvation is In Two Thousand years Time.
2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold,
now [is] the accepted time; behold,
now [is] the day of salvation.) Same Day as This Molly, not another ONE
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Paul Himself stating...ITS earlier than believed, because its NOW IS, but Only for those who walk In the DAY( Christ), as it states In Revelation It comes QUICKLY the Time is NIGH, Its Nigh FOR THOSE WHO believe Molly
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light
Do those who walk, walk In the Day OR do they walk in the Night?
all this mean people were falling away, back to former beliefs...
Those who ARE Drunkard HEAR the CROWN of PRIDE....its spiritual Talk Molly, we compare Spiritual with spiritual
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But
put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not
provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif)
Nathan, I'm going to step out a little further in my literal-ness. (mind you, I learned from my mother how to walk in Spirit as a child, how to call what is not into being, how to walk through open doors, how to ask, seek, and knock. So I understand that and have done it all my life).
What Martin said last night, if I understand him correctly--the Lord Jesus himself won't return to this earth until after the fire of purification. Could we understand that to be Armageddon? But we see in Rev 20 that this doesn't happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ. So, then how does Christ reign if he is not returning until the end?
Christ was made manifest two thousand years ago, and now--
19 ... the creation eagerly waits with anticipation for God's sons to be revealed.
--Romans 8
Could the new heavens and new earth be us?
Nathan, when Christ says he is come to give life and give it abundantly [without measure], I believe him in a literal sense. What if the hologram--God's sons--literally took over the rule of this world in the thousand year millenium, ruling --in the place of--with the High Priest-- Christ, as kings and [Melchizedek] priests? I don't want to sound too crazy, but the science of the last 100 years has been completely hidden and suppressed (that's what the occult worshippers do, and have always done, but never to this extent). There is a picture of Tesla standing in an open field 100 years ago, with nothing in sight but fields, holding a light bulb to the ground and it is completely lit up. His dream was to provide free energy--wireless-- to the entire world. Suppressed by satan and his minions (banksters and industrialists)! Nathan if the sons of God were to rise up and take control of the science which has been suppressed and hidden for a hundred years--everyone on the globe could live like kings, and probably live 'forever'.
I know you have never given birth, but I'm sure you could take my word for it that you reach a point where you are groaning: enough!, I can't stand one more minute of this--and that is about half way through. I have been feeling this groaning in the Spirit for some time now,--I am on my last nerve--and I know you have, too. I've never felt this way before in Spirit--enough, I can't stand one more minute of this, let this child be born!
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
--Romans 8
I don't really quite understand this, yet, as I'm only seeing glimpses of it. I'm too wrapped up in the process to see the end. But I do take it all literally--that Christ will reign with the sons on this earth, and it will be the seventh day of rest for all people.
13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
--Luke 2
I believe it to happen in both realms, but the clouds of understanding come when we assume that the natural is going to be in our present understanding of what natural is. But "this" natural is result of the curse. The curse is the reversal of the original order God created Adam in. Christ reversed that curse by way of the cross and we can enter into the blessing through the spirit . .and the completion of that blessing is when this earth we live on will also be reversed to it's original state, where spirit took precedence over natural. So, yes, I believe there is going to be a completeness to what we're seeing in the spirit and it's going to happen just as you say . .when the bride, this body of Christ that has life planted in her womb has come full term and she's ready to birth it out . . .to call it forth. There is a man-child in the corporate bride that has been finally conceived in her womb. Many may not be aware that they are pregnant yet, but you can only hide that one for so long. But it's our responsibility, not to plant this babe in the womb, but to call it forth.
Keeping in mind "When" it happens the earth's curse will be reversed and the natural things won't be in the same manner as natural things are to us now.
Christ Jesus has been High Priest and King since He rode the donkey into Jerusalem, according to Zechariah 9:9, if His coronation wasn't in fact at the transfiguration because of Peter's comments about that in 2Peter about having been with His Majesty. But there are restrictions on Him being bodily here (i.e. as an individual) until the New Earth. Hebrews says that He couldn't be priest on earth because of the existing priesthood. Some premillenialists might object that that was prior to 70AD, but Christ set up His own priesthood on earth with Ephesians 4, 1Corinthians 12, and various statements in Romans 12 and the pastoral epistles, as they're called, that St. Paul wrote. The same language of Hebrews could be slightly rewritten that if He were on earth, then what's the reason for all of the appointments and endowments in the Body?
Revelation 20 says that the resurrected reign with Christ a thousand years. That has nothing to do with the duration of the reign of Christ Jesus, or it's starting point. That only reflects that those that are made alive at that time from having been stomped out by Islam -- since it's those resurrected whose heads had come off specifically with the ax, in the Greek -- are reigning with Christ a thousand years. Someone can be a sheriff with the county for X-number of years, but that doesn't mean that at the termination of their "reign" that there's no longer authority with the county and that there couldn't be further appointments and even reappointments. There are some Old Testament Scriptures that indicate His reign began the moment He was born in Bethlehem, or previous to that in that His reign has always been through each principle and command of the Old Testament Scriptures.
But His style on the present heavens and earth has been delegation of all power and all authority because He's making things right with us after they went so wrong in the Garden of Eden. I can take you to Scripture after Scripture in the Gospels and in Paul and John that indicate that if we're not reigning here, then we'll never reign in the ages to come 'cause we buried our talent through presumption. But Christ Jesus is out of here, as far as the present heavens and earth are concerned, with brief exceptions where He has to step in to restructure things in the Body of ministers with either personally anointing someone for something or having the appropriate angel that's over this or that assigned to the life of the believer that's supposed to do such and such (Hebrews 1:13-14). I know of some folks that Christ Jesus has laid His hands on for them to have a healing ministry with a special anointing on their hands and others that simply have the angel Rapha-el working with them in ministry to the sick. Couldn't begin to tell you why in this case, but not in that case, - any more than I could tell you why that the same anointing on physically ordinary men like Sampson and David could tear a lion in half, but when it was placed on Daniel simply made those lions his pillows for the night.
I think that too many times the hands, knees, arm pits, and toes of the Body of Christ have been trying to tell the Head how things ought to be done. And then have been trying to gouge out the liver if it wasn't doing it's job according to their definition of the will of the Head that's based upon their religious pride, not realizing that the liver is genuinely one of the filtration systems and not the thyroid or an adrenal gland. 1Corinthians 5 does say that He'll exfoliate if we don't get it together and allow Him to run the Body and the order of the ages and His place in them as He sees fit.
The one thing that seems to be getting more obvious for me when dealing with the comparison between "a" body and the body of Christ is, "a" body can not function unless it has opposites. There must always be a right hand to compliment the left hand. A right foot to carry the weight while the left foot advances . . . if we had two left feet, how would that affect the balance of the over-all body?
For me, that's what becoming one is all about. Even though my perspectives may be opposite from that of another, we still need each other in order to retain balance within the body. Even though our reflex may be to try to steer the other toward our way of thinking, it may not be the original purpose or call of God in everyone's life. Perhaps that's why the warring isn't really that effective when we get into our debates with each other. Maybe that's why it's more effective that we just plant the seeds we have and let God take it from there . . .clarification . . .sure . . .defending one's stance? Not so much.