Matthew 13 -- Wheat & Tares

[Molly]

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul?  And, that is why she was deceived?

As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.

They why is she deceived and he isn't?

Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower:

So you are saying Eve represents the flesh of man [Adam]?

[Nathan]

Adam = your spirit
Eve    = your mind
serpent = ego.

Ego is flesh, spirit is light, the mind is the part of me that "chooses" whether to follow ego, or follow spirit.  This is the simplest explanation I can come up with for where I'm at right now.

[Taffy]

Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower:


[/quote]So you are saying Eve represents the flesh of man?
[/quote]

No, You said It :laughing7:....

similitudes Molly.

How is The Flesh\soul of Man restored?..maybe the Second Adam :icon_flower: which Takes Us back to the Beginning ,being made equal,in the Kingdom there is NO MALE and Female? :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Adam = your spirit
Eve    = your mind
serpent = ego.

Ego is flesh, spirit is light, the mind is the part of me that "chooses" whether to follow ego, or follow spirit.  This is the simplest explanation I can come up with for where I'm at right now.

Where did you come from :laughing7:

[Nathan]

My Mamma! :first:

[Taffy]

My Mamma! :first:

Comedian Too egh... :icon_king:

[Molly]

So has Christ literally given us [his Eve] a new body [flesh]?



35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?" 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed,  perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants,  and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:

--1Cor 15


John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.





19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus,  20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh  ); 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God,  22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.

--Heb 10


"true" [heart]
G228
ἀληθινός
alēthinos
al-ay-thee-nos'
From G227; truthful: - true.


Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:


20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

[Nathan]

Just as some believe in post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib . . .I'm a "pan-trib".  Everything will pan out in the end . . .it's an oldie, I know, but when dealing with subjects like this, that always comes back to me.  I know we'll all have transformed and eternal bodies to replace these aging and aching ones.  I also beleive that "we're the ones that can bring that about by again, entering into the realm where all things are complete, and begin speaking those finished things in Spirit, as though they are in the flesh.

I'm crazy enough to believe that the day is going to come when the glory of the Lord covers my earth as the waters cover the see and the faith is going to be flowing so forcefully and effeciently that we'll look at passages that speak of immortal bodies and we'll say "I can see that happening right now . . ."  and we'll just stop dying . . . and why not.

But in the mean time, we need to understand and pursue the spiritual immortality that "can" be manifested in us now as it's been available to all men for 2,000 years and counting.

A thought with the Eve thing . . .if you read the origin carefully, you'll note that Eve didn't change when she ate of the fruit.  She ate "before" giving it to Adam.  But it wasn't until "Adam" ate that they both saw their nakedness.  Why do you suppose that was?

[jabcat]

Because Eve finally realized it when she saw Adam's eyes suddenly popping out of his head?  :laughing7:.  He was our forefather you know.

[Taffy]

So has Christ literally given us [his Eve] a new body [flesh]?



35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?" 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed,  perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants,  and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:

--1Cor 15


John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.





19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus,  20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh  ); 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God,  22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.

--Heb 10


"true" [heart]
G228
ἀληθινός
alēthinos
al-ay-thee-nos'
From G227; truthful: - true.


Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:


20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Molly,
Search some....DIG for yourself, LET him reveal.

start here..ket me Know what ya Find...


Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

If ya would have read me posts ,Im sure ive given in recent times the explaination of the Glory of the Stars Moons etc...let me know if ya cant find it...

Go dig sister...sometimes Tis the ONLY way :icon_flower:

[Kimberlaina]

Ok, so the thing about Adam and Eve just went [whoosh] over my head.  But the rest of it is beginning to make sense.  Honestly, I've read so many of those passages about heart, soul, mind, and spirit but I never really thought about what they are!   :Oops:  Perhaps it was that Biblephobia . . .  :sigh:

The first time I read the "multiple men inside every man" concept I thought it was far-flung, frankly.  I can't say I've ever really heard this before.  I always understood flesh=body and soul/spirit=inner self.  It's so much more complicated than that . . . so other than 1 Thessalonians 5:23, are there any other verses that explicitly discuss our component parts and what they are?  I'd like to study this idea further.

Allow me to pester you with more (probably redundant) questions  :thumbsup:

If we are flesh, spirit, and soul, can someone please explain where the heart and mind fit in?  Why aren't they part of the three main components?

Which parts of us exist eternally, or into the future?

Is saying that the tares of Matthew 13 are "carnal men within us" really justified?  How can we justify this application?

I'm trying to develop a working definition of these things so that I can apply it to Matthew 13  :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

For me, heart and spirit are one and the same . .as is soul and flesh.  And the tares in me are the imperfections in me that God is kinda saying . . .hey, you are perfected in me, stop trying to perfect what's in you.  The tares, I think of them like a person who is constantly trying to remove the little specs of dust off their clothes . .we're constantly brushing oursleves off, picking at scabs from past scars, almost being healed, but never really because we won't leave well enough alone. 

My nature . .I am a field that seeds are planted in.  The fruit of those things planted become the manifestation to others of my nature from within.  And of course, others will also see the tares, which leads you to the spec in your neighbor's eye and the beam in yours . .that was really the same principle there as well.  Leave them alone . . .let them mature into what God has ordained for them to be, not what "I" think they should become.

So the tares in me are my faults, failures, bad habits . . .but in the end, the angels (messenger/message) are what does the dividing . . .flesh from spirit . . .it's not people or people's ministries, it's the Word of God that does the separating in me.

[alihaymeg]

1 Thes 5:23 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
And the very God of peace sanctify (5659) you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved (5684) blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit= Pneuma (transliterated)
the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \Holy\ Spirit)
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \Truth\)
never referred to as a depersonalised force
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
the soul
a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a life giving spirit
a human soul that has left the body
a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself
breath of nostrils or mouth

Soul= Psuche (transliterated)
breath
the breath of life
the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
of animals 1a
of men
life
that in which there is life
a living being, a living soul
the soul
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Body= Soma (transliterated)
the body both of men or animals
a dead body or corpse
the living body
of animals
the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
so in the NT of the church
that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

[alihaymeg]

The previous were derived from the KJV Strong's Version. I think there are some biases in the definitions based on earlier understandings of the words as they were translated into Latin and other languages. The original Greek meanings of the words may still elude us.

1 Thes 5:23 seems to clearly establish a difference between the three.

Mathew 28:19 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
Go ye (5679) therefore, and teach (5657) all nations, baptizing (5723) them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This verse shows the "immage" of God in which we were created. Just as He is a triune being, so are we. (eg. spirit, soul, and body)

[Andromeda_Organa]

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25  For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


two covenants

those who held onto the old=tares, children of the bondwoman, Ishmaels; who persecuted the first century church, whose pride in the law system had to be crushed. 


the new:  those given faith, eyes to see, who turned away from the old system.  FAITH.  rewarded.


One to be burned, one to be rewarded.  In the end, the consumation of an age (the old covenant age). 

In with the NEW, the new covenant age. 


Some saved from the fire, many were not saved. 

But with the changing of the covenants, All reconciled through the NEW

:thumbsup:
Old Man , New Man , Night , Day ,Slave, Heir, babe\Child , Son etc

What exactly DO you  believe, Taffy?

[Taffy]

Ho A...

Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...

If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:

Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:

[Andromeda_Organa]

Ho A...

Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...

If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:

Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:

Well, I just can't tell if you b elieve in UR or not- which is what I believe in. And you seem pretty fond of that flower...

[Taffy]

Ho A...

Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...

If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:

Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:

Well, I just can't tell if you b elieve in UR or not- which is what I believe in. And you seem pretty fond of that flower...

Yeah That Flower, Kinda Like it, sorta a Calling card , A sunny Face, with 8 Blue Petals :icon_flower:

I just responded to your Pm...

Yes, Christ THE SAVIOR of ALL... :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

in that same light, then the passage you quoted would be saying that God is sending those who don't "know" him to hell as well.  Yes?

All things are spiritual . . .which for me is "internal".  Internally, I have wheat and tares.  I have godly traits and ungodly traits.  It is not for me to try to remove my ungodly traits by my own reasoning, but rather, as my wheat comes into maturity, the message of light then does the harvesting, as the spirit sifts the wheat in me from the tares in me . . .it's a spiritual process of maturity and the barn to me is the temple made up of living stones. . .which is believers in the faith of Truth.

It's just another dimension or perspective.

For me, the other doesn't fit either in the sense that we are taught to separate ourselves from the world . .from flesh . . .but here with the tares, we're told to leave them where they are  .. . which is it?  Am I to separate myself from ungodly people or not?

[peacemaker]

... a struggle within!

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law (Galatians 5:16-18) – of the flesh.

Excellent questions, and responses ...love, joy and peace, as not all desires are of the flesh.

peacemaker

[alihaymeg]

One more distinction:

Spirit= Had no beginning and will have no end

Soul= Had a beginning but will have no end

Body = Had a beginning and will have an end

[Andromeda_Organa]

I know this is off topic, but why are all of Brian's posts a period now?

[Taffy]

I know this is off topic, but why are all of Brian's posts a period now?

He seems to have deleted them along with His account,youll probably pick a Little more up as you browse certain threads . :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

This still isn't settling yet, I can't respond to it in the Revelation thread, I can't clarify questions raised there, so I will try to do what I can here.  The passage in question is again, Matthew 13.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.  37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 8The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;  39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.  40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.  41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;  42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

One of the arguements that even the disciples had with Jesus was . .why couldn't he just be straight forward?  Why couldn't he say things about what is spiritual and what is carnal?  Why did he always present his message is a "story-book" format?  Time and time again, the disciples would constantly be tripping over their minds when trying to comprehend things Jesus said.  There was a time when they were getting into a boat and Jesus told them to beware of the leaven of the pharisees . . .and the disciples were all upset because they "thought" Jesus was mad at them for forgetting to bring food on the trip.

They never understood what he meant, even though it seems he was so clear, when he told them he was going away to die . . . after everything was said and done, he died, was buried and then resurrected and was with them again . . .they STILL thought he was PHYSCIALLY going to overthrow the Roman government and literally be the king of the Jews.  It was not until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that the natural stories Jesus planted in them, came to spiritual life.

So here, they don't get the parable of the good seed, the bad seed. . .so they pull Jesus aside to explain . .bear in mind . . .the Holy Spirit had still not yet been poured out.  Which means that they still weren't going to comprehend what Jesus was saying at that time.  So he explains to them about the tares NOT being removed from the wheat.  If you choose to embrace the idea that this is literally dealing with godly men versus ungodly men . . .could you then explain why would removing the ungodly men would damage the godly men?   That "is" why the tares were to remain . . . because if the tares would be removed, it would damage the wheat.
-------------------------------------------------

That's major problem #1.

Problem #2 is . . .can you explain to me what it means when we see all through the New Testament the little phrase "he that hath an ear, let him hear"? 

Very curious to hear the explanation on these two issues.

[70sevens]

Let me give Explanations to Problem #1 & #2


1.

The disciples at that time have no eyes to distinguish tares from the wheat.
So if they are allowed to remove tares, they would remove anything, including wheat.

Likewise, we do not know what is good to God's standard,
However, we are judging good and evil by our own standard, ethical probably.
This will damage God's good.
Think about what Saul(Paul) did, before he met Jesus.


2.

They, the disciples, can do that only when
they reached Pentacost stage of their faith.
At that stage, they will become the reapers, the angels in the parable,
who have eyes to distinguish good and evil.

And only at that point,
they can understand the meaning of this parable.
But now, no matter what extra explanation are given,
they cannot hear.
They will not know what it means, until they grow up to that stage.

So the Bible is not to be studied,
but as we grow in faith, the Bible will read to us.