The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[Tony N]

Something no preterist or partial preterist has been able to answer satisfactorily is this:

How did each and every event of Matthew 24 and 25 come to pass?

If Jesus meant that no one would see these things come to pass then, what's the point of telling anyone they would visibly come to pass?

If all of them visibly came to pass, why is it that not one person in church history or any historian recorded them as coming to pass in 70 A.D. or before 70 A.D. or after 70 A.D.?

This has much to do with John's vision we call Revelation.

So the Preterist and partial preterist wants to believe they came to pass but can't give a good reason that they did? But they believe they did anyway? Though no church historian or any other historian which saw Jerusalem destroyed like Josephus did records any of Matthew 24 or 25 coming to pass.

As to "this generation shall not pass till . . ." I thought this was a good response:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/thisgen.html

[Zeek]

The reason:  JESUS CHRIST

Fulfillment!!!!

[pneuma]

pneuma, I say this hoping you are not offended but, your translation leaves alot to be desired.

When the reaping comes as Christ said it would, it is not the end of the world. The world does not end till 1000 years after that when it is destroyed by fire and then a new earth comes. A better translation is the Concordant Literal New Testament which states it this way:

Mat 13:37-43 Now He, answering, said, "He Who is sowing the ideal seed is the Son of Mankind." (38) Now the field is the world. Now the ideal seed, these are the sons of the kingdom. Now the darnel are the sons of the wicked one." (39) Now the enemy who sows them is the Adversary. Now the harvest is the conclusion of the eon. Now the reapers are messengers. (40) Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon." (41) The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, (42) and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. (43) Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The above happens just prior to Jesus setting up His millennial reign on the earth.

John the Revelator saw in his vision the day of the Lord when He comes with vengeance and a sword.

Hi Tony I am well aware the end of the world is actually the end of the age. And it is the same end of the world/age spoken here

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You see this only as a future event, I agree it's a future event but also agree with those who have stated it happened in 70AD.

My question was addressed to both parties, those who believe everything is past and that's it, if the end of the world spoken of in Matt.24 Has already happened and won't happen in the future I wanted to know then how they viewed Matt.13:37-43, do they see it as a future event, if so then they cannot say it is past and that it, as they both speak of the same thing.

Thus helping to prove my point that it is past and yet is still to come to pass again in the future. Thats if they believe Mt.13:37-43 is a future event.

As to your stance that it is only a future event I think Zeek has given you enough to show that it happened in 70AD.

I suppose the only way any are going to come into agreement is to ask what does the end of the world/age mean to them, so that my question to all

What does the end of the world/age mean to you?

I'll give you a hint of what it means to mean, it is speaking of the end of the law of sacrifice.

[Zeek]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

[Nathan]

Something no preterist or partial preterist has been able to answer satisfactorily is this:

How did each and every event of Matthew 24 and 25 come to pass?

If Jesus meant that no one would see these things come to pass then, what's the point of telling anyone they would visibly come to pass?

If all of them visibly came to pass, why is it that not one person in church history or any historian recorded them as coming to pass in 70 A.D. or before 70 A.D. or after 70 A.D.?

This has much to do with John's vision we call Revelation.

So the Preterist and partial preterist wants to believe they came to pass but can't give a good reason that they did? But they believe they did anyway? Though no church historian or any other historian which saw Jerusalem destroyed like Josephus did records any of Matthew 24 or 25 coming to pass.

As to "this generation shall not pass till . . ." I thought this was a good response:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/thisgen.html

I didn't.

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
After all, they reason, the sun was not darkened and the moon did not fail to give her beams, and the stars did not fall from heaven, nor were the powers of the heavens shaken; the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven did not appear, all the tribes of the land did not grieve, nor did they see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory (Matt.24:29,30

Not that it's going to matter much at this point, but I'm giong to try playing this a little more.  It's not that we are ignoring those things that were to happen so that we can still hold our theology, it's that we/I believe regardless of what language it's written in, be it english, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew . . .none of those languages are God's language.  When he speaks to me, he doesn't speak in Hebrew because I don't know the language.  He speaks to me "in my tongue".  

But what is "his" language?  You've got a world here that you created, you create beings to reproduce . . . how would you talk to them?  You do it "through" your creation.  God's alphabet consists of trees, metals, colors, numbers, materials and elements (wind, water, fire, dirt, etc.)  That's "his" language.  And unlike the U.S., when you enter into his realm, you've got to know his language.  If you try to "interpret" his words, you risk missing the original intent of what is being said.

That's why Jesus spoke in parables, using natural things to reveal spiritual truth . .but those listening were stuck on the natural things so they couldn't make any sense of what he was saying because it was intended to be heard with spiritual ears.  But the Spirit was not yet poured out on all flesh . .but it would be, and Jesus knew that.   So he continued planting the seeds in the waterless soil, all the while, knowing that when the Spirit was poured out, these seeds would be activated in the hearts of men, and understanding of everything he said would then come.

That's "how" Peter knew that "this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel".  God proclaims his glory "through" the things he created.  The stars shine, the moon reflects and the sun illuminates the earth.  Sun, moon, and stars . . .you can NOT take this literally.  You MUST understand the language . .and the simplest way to do that is, to let SCRIPTURE interpet ITSELF.  Where else to you read of the sun, moon and stars together?  How about Joseph's dream??  He had the sun, moon and stars bow at his feet . .and who were they?  His family.  And who are his family?  They were the patriarchs of the nation of ISRAEL.  

Jesus cried over Israel and prayed over them.  He spoke of how he so desired to take them under his wing as a hen does with her chicks and they wouldn't let him.  as a result, it left them desolate.  It was lights out of the nation when Rome went in . . .this "A.D. 70" issue is not about a "day".  There were MANY things that were strange wonders that led up to the removal.  Voices were heard in the night, thunder was heard, light would shine and light up the enter city in the middle of the night . . .there was a merging of spirit and flesh during that time.   Just because "you" don't know of it, is not enough basis to claim that it didn't happen.  

The stars that fell . .you keep looking for natural stars . .. they've got nothing to do with it.  They are created for "signs" and seasons.  A star represents a prophet . .ships in the night can find their way by the alignment of the stars.  My ship is my belief system with which I navigate my life through the uncharted waters before me.  It's based on the prophets of God . .a prophet is simply one who speaks on the behalf of another.  Jude speaks of wandering stars being false prophets.  They are stars that fell from heaven (spiritual realm)

The powers of heaven are not shaken?  What do you think transpired during this slaughter?  It was recorded that there were earthquakes all over Israel in the day these things happened.  Even when Jesus died on the cross, there was a great earth quake.  It's a picture that proclaims there is a shifting beneath the surface of our understanding.  Israel was greatly shaken.  That's why not one stone was left on top of the other . . .God brought the entire religious system down to the dust from which it was originally erected.  You're not seeing it because you refuse to see it from any other perspective than the one "you" have chosen.

[pneuma]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

Which is the end of the law of sacrifice.

[Zeek]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

Which is the end of the law of sacrifice.

I agree.   :grin: :grin:

which had huge implications for those "attached" to that system. 

Saved through destruction. 

[pneuma]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

Which is the end of the law of sacrifice.

I agree.   :grin: :grin:

which had huge implications for those "attached" to that system. 

Saved through destruction. 

I agree and the reason these scriptures concerning the end of the world/age or as we just agreed upon the end of the law of sacrifice were fulfilled in 70AD is because the temple was destroyed and without the temple there can be no sacrifice thus ending the law of sacrifice. Therefore we have a literal fulfillment of a more spiritual application, first the natural then the spiritual.

[Taffy]

Something no preterist or partial preterist has been able to answer satisfactorily is this:

How did each and every event of Matthew 24 and 25 come to pass?

If Jesus meant that no one would see these things come to pass then, what's the point of telling anyone they would visibly come to pass?

If all of them visibly came to pass, why is it that not one person in church history or any historian recorded them as coming to pass in 70 A.D. or before 70 A.D. or after 70 A.D.?

This has much to do with John's vision we call Revelation.

So the Preterist and partial preterist wants to believe they came to pass but can't give a good reason that they did? But they believe they did anyway? Though no church historian or any other historian which saw Jerusalem destroyed like Josephus did records any of Matthew 24 or 25 coming to pass.

As to "this generation shall not pass till . . ." I thought this was a good response:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/thisgen.html

I didn't.

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
After all, they reason, the sun was not darkened and the moon did not fail to give her beams, and the stars did not fall from heaven, nor were the powers of the heavens shaken; the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven did not appear, all the tribes of the land did not grieve, nor did they see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory (Matt.24:29,30

Not that it's going to matter much at this point, but I'm giong to try playing this a little more.  It's not that we are ignoring those things that were to happen so that we can still hold our theology, it's that we/I believe regardless of what language it's written in, be it english, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew . . .none of those languages are God's language.  When he speaks to me, he doesn't speak in Hebrew because I don't know the language.  He speaks to me "in my tongue".  

But what is "his" language?  You've got a world here that you created, you create beings to reproduce . . . how would you talk to them?  You do it "through" your creation.  God's alphabet consists of trees, metals, colors, numbers, materials and elements (wind, water, fire, dirt, etc.)  That's "his" language.  And unlike the U.S., when you enter into his realm, you've got to know his language.  If you try to "interpret" his words, you risk missing the original intent of what is being said.

That's why Jesus spoke in parables, using natural things to reveal spiritual truth . .but those listening were stuck on the natural things so they couldn't make any sense of what he was saying because it was intended to be heard with spiritual ears.  But the Spirit was not yet poured out on all flesh . .but it would be, and Jesus knew that.   So he continued planting the seeds in the waterless soil, all the while, knowing that when the Spirit was poured out, these seeds would be activated in the hearts of men, and understanding of everything he said would then come.

That's "how" Peter knew that "this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel".  God proclaims his glory "through" the things he created.  The stars shine, the moon reflects and the sun illuminates the earth.  Sun, moon, and stars . . .you can NOT take this literally.  You MUST understand the language . .and the simplest way to do that is, to let SCRIPTURE interpet ITSELF.  Where else to you read of the sun, moon and stars together?  How about Joseph's dream??  He had the sun, moon and stars bow at his feet . .and who were they?  His family.  And who are his family?  They were the patriarchs of the nation of ISRAEL.  

Jesus cried over Israel and prayed over them.  He spoke of how he so desired to take them under his wing as a hen does with her chicks and they wouldn't let him.  as a result, it left them desolate.  It was lights out of the nation when Rome went in . . .this "A.D. 70" issue is not about a "day".  There were MANY things that were strange wonders that led up to the removal.  Voices were heard in the night, thunder was heard, light would shine and light up the enter city in the middle of the night . . .there was a merging of spirit and flesh during that time.   Just because "you" don't know of it, is not enough basis to claim that it didn't happen.  

The stars that fell . .you keep looking for natural stars . .. they've got nothing to do with it.  They are created for "signs" and seasons.  A star represents a prophet . .ships in the night can find their way by the alignment of the stars.  My ship is my belief system with which I navigate my life through the uncharted waters before me.  It's based on the prophets of God . .a prophet is simply one who speaks on the behalf of another.  Jude speaks of wandering stars being false prophets.  They are stars that fell from heaven (spiritual realm)

The powers of heaven are not shaken?  What do you think transpired during this slaughter?  It was recorded that there were earthquakes all over Israel in the day these things happened.  Even when Jesus died on the cross, there was a great earth quake.  It's a picture that proclaims there is a shifting beneath the surface of our understanding.  Israel was greatly shaken.  That's why not one stone was left on top of the other . . .God brought the entire religious system down to the dust from which it was originally erected.  You're not seeing it because you refuse to see it from any other perspective than the one "you" have chosen.

Stayed out of this thread A little while BUT,

ya Know, I sorta Love it when ya Brief like this  :thumbsup:

[Zeek]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

Which is the end of the law of sacrifice.

I agree.   :grin: :grin:

which had huge implications for those "attached" to that system. 

Saved through destruction. 

I agree and the reason these scriptures concerning the end of the world/age or as we just agreed upon the end of the law of sacrifice were fulfilled in 70AD is because the temple was destroyed and without the temple there can be no sacrifice thus ending the law of sacrifice. Therefore we have a literal fulfillment of a more spiritual application, first the natural then the spiritual.

That's what i am seeing.  But more than just "the temple destroyed", it was fulfillment through HIM.  I believe there was a spiritual application t the literal that happened too. 

Today, we can put ourselves under law, under "sacrificial system", but there is no more authority; it was fulfilled in HIM. 

coming to this knowledge is a process/discovery. 

[pneuma]

What does end of age mean to me?

http://www.infinite-grace.com/

Which is the end of the law of sacrifice.

I agree.   :grin: :grin:

which had huge implications for those "attached" to that system. 

Saved through destruction. 

I agree and the reason these scriptures concerning the end of the world/age or as we just agreed upon the end of the law of sacrifice were fulfilled in 70AD is because the temple was destroyed and without the temple there can be no sacrifice thus ending the law of sacrifice. Therefore we have a literal fulfillment of a more spiritual application, first the natural then the spiritual.

That's what i am seeing.  But more than just "the temple destroyed", it was fulfillment through HIM.  I believe there was a spiritual application t the literal that happened too. 

Today, we can put ourselves under law, under "sacrificial system", but there is no more authority; it was fulfilled in HIM. 

coming to this knowledge is a process/discovery. 

:thumbsup:

[Tony N]

I suppose the only way any are going to come into agreement is to ask what does the end of the world/age mean to them, so that my question to all

What does the end of the world/age mean to you?

I'll give you a hint of what it means to mean, it is speaking of the end of the law of sacrifice.

Dear pneuma,
As far as we know, the Bible shows 5 distince eons.
Each eon corresponds to a cataclysmic event which affects the whole earth we live on.
The first eon ended in a cataclysm in which "the earth became chaos and vacant."

The second eon began when a new earth emerged out of that watery past and continued till Noah.
That eon ended with the whole earth being destroyed by water.
The third eon emerged from that watery destruction with a new earth.

We are still in that third eon.

The third eon will end when the earth is destroyed by an earth shattering earthquake the likes of which has never occurred before in which all the cities of the nations will fall.

Then, out of that eon will come the 1000 year eon, also known as the regeneration.

That fourth eon will end with the earth being destroyed by fire and a new earth emerging out of that destruction and will thus be the 5th eon.

Here is a very small chart depicting eath eon and the end of it with destruction of the earth.

The ending of the law was not the ending of the third eon.
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was not the ending of the third eon in which we live.

It has to be something which destroys the earth which ends an eon.

[Zeek]

"Let's look at the use of "heaven and earth" in Scripture and see if they have some other meaning besides the literal physical heavens and earth. If you want to know what a term means in the New Testament, you need to go back to the Old Testament and see what it meant there. If it was used a certain way in the Old Testament, wouldn't it make sense that Jesus and the New Testament writer would use those expressions in the same way? We must get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament:



Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.



Who is God talking to here? In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel. Notice what he says to them in:



Deuteronomy 32:22 (NKJV) For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.



God is not talking here about burning up the physical earth. God is using apocalyptic and symbolic language to warn Israel of judgement that He will bring upon them. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.



In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:



Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;



Isaiah 1:10 (NKJV) Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah:



God is still talking to Israel, and He calls them "Sodom and Gomorrah." The literal Sodom and Gomorrah had been destroyed for some time. Here we see "rulers" used for "heavens" in verse 2, and "people" used for "earth." So the terms "heaven and earth" are used to speak of rulers and people of a nation. This idea is seen more clearly as we look at other passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth "the end of the world" as the collapse of heaven and earth.



Isaiah 13:1 (NKJV) The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.



In this chapter, God is talking about the judgement that is to fall upon Babylon. The word "burden" is the Hebrew word massa' an utterance, chiefly a doom. This introduction sets the stage for the subject matter in this chapter, and if we forget this, our interpretations of Isaiah 13 can go just about anywhere our imagination wants to go. This is not an oracle against the universe or world but against the nation of Babylon:



Isaiah 13:6 (NKJV) Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.



Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV) Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.



Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but it sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed, would it seem like the world was destroyed? Let me put it this way: If America were destroyed, would it seem to you like the world ended? Yes! Your world would have ended.



Isaiah 13:17 (NKJV) "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.



This is a historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon, the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said, in verse 6, to be from the Almighty, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. The physical heaven and earth were still in tact, but for Babylon, they had collapsed. This is apocalyptic language. This is the way the Bible discusses the fall of a nation. This is obviously figurative language.



In Isaiah 24-27, we see the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. He carries them away to captivity. Notice the language that he uses:



Isaiah 24:3-6 (NKJV) The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the LORD has spoken this word. 4 The earth mourns and fades away, The worldlanguishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish. 5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.



Isaiah 24:19-20 (NKJV) The earth is violently broken, The earth is split open, The earth is shaken exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, And shall totter like a hut; Its transgression shall be heavy upon it, And it will fall, and not rise again.



What I want you to see in these verses is how God refers to Israel as the earth. He says, "The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly."Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.



In Isaiah 34, we have a description of the fall of Edom. Notice the language that is used:



Isaiah 34:4-5 (NKJV) All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.



This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally. God says, "His sword will be bathed in heaven," then explains what He means by saying, "It shall come down on Edom." The NIV puts it this way, "My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed." So, God speaks of His sword being bathed in heaven, meaning the nation Edom, not the literal heaven. Edom shall be rolled up like a scroll.



Let's look at one other Old Testament use of this language:



Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkocrape. 2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.



The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgement of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the Bible uses this apocalyptic language. If the destruction of heaven and earth were to be taken literally in all of the Old Testament passages, it would mean that heaven and earth were destroyed a bunch of times. This language is clearly not literal but figurative and apocalyptic.



The passing away of heaven and earth is another way to speak of the end of the Old Covenant. To prove this from the Scripture, look with me at:



Hebrews 1:10-12 (NKJV) And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."



These verses are a word for word quotation from Psalm 102. If all we had was the prophecy of David in Psalms 102, we might think that this is referring to the physical earth. But, the New Testament gives us insight and illumination to the Old Testament.



How is the world or the heavens and earth of old going to perish? David said, in Psalm 102:26, "They shall grow old like a garment," and then they would be "changed." Is it just a coincidence that the Bible speaks of the passing away of the old covenant using the same language?



Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV) In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



The same Greek word palaioo which means: "to make worn out, or declare obsolete" is used in Hebrews 1:11 of the heavens and earth and 8:13 of the Old Covenant. The writer of Hebrews teaches us that the "Old Covenant" and the "Heavens and earth" are synonymous.



John Brown said, " 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)


Believers, if we don't understand the biblical use of "heaven and earth", we will not understand Jesus' words in:



Matthew 5:18 (NKJV) "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.



And if we don't understand these words of Jesus, we will end up in confusion like the Commentator who, commenting on this verse, said, "In saying 'till heaven and earth pass away' - the most stable of all created objects - Christ affirmed the unchangeableness of the Law." That is not at all what Christ meant!



Another commentator writes:



In other words, the whole Old Testament is authoritative until the age to come. In verse 18b the words 'one jot or one tittle' refer to the extent of the Old Testament's authority. By that Matthew means the whole Old Testament is authoritative between the two advents of Christ down to its minute details. According to Matthew 5:17, 18, the Law and the Prophets (the whole Old Testament) have their place under the administration of Christ under the New Covenant.



Let's dissect what he says here. He said, "In other words, the whole Old Testament is authoritative until the age to come." This is exactly what Jesus was saying! But what this commentator doesn't understand is that the "age to come" came in AD 70. Jesus lived in what the Bible calls "this age". We today live in what the Bible calls the "age to come". He goes on to say, "Matthew means the whole Old Testament is authoritative between the two advents of Christ down to its minute details." - This is absolutely correct! But what he doesn't understand is that the second advent took place in AD 70 at the end of the Jewish age. So, when the Jewish age ended with the destruction of the temple, so did the law.



He goes on to say this: "According to Matthew 5:17, 18, the Law and the Prophets (the whole Old Testament) have their place under the administration of Christ under the New Covenant." Is that true? NO! The Old Covenant has NO place in the New Covenant! Why is that so hard to understand? The New Covenant replaced the Old. And believers today live under the New, not the Old Covenant:



Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV) In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



In AD 65, when this epistle was written, the old covenant was "ready to vanish away". The Greek word for "vanish" is aphanismos which means: "disappearance or abrogation".



Matthew 5:18 (NKJV) "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.



The law remains in tack, every bit of it, until it is all fulfilled and heaven and earth pass away. That's what Jesus said, isn't it? Now compare that to what Jesus says in:



Matthew 24:35 (NKJV) "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.



Jesus uses the same Greek word (parerchomai) here for "pass away" as he did in Matthew 5:18. So, in Matthew 5:18 he says that heaven and earth will pass away when the law is fulfilled, and in 24:35 he says that heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will not pass away. So, Jesus' words would last forever, but the "Law" and the "heavens and earth" would pass away.



Believers, we are to live by the words of Jesus Christ, which will never pass away. Jesus brought in the New Covenant, which is an everlasting covenant. The old is passed away, and we live in the New Covenant age. "


Message preached by David B. Curtis; Sept.29,2002; Tape #255b

http://www.preteristplanet.com/id84.html

[Tony N]

Zeek, are you really convinced  by that? I'm not in the least.

In Deuteronomy 31:1 Moses was wanting the heavens and earth to testify against Israel for they were already corrupt.

In Isaiah 1:1,2 which you quoted, again Isaiah is wanting the heavens and earth to testify concerning his words against Israel. It was a form of witness in the O.T.

So when heaven and earth shall pass away does that mean what?

Dear Zeek, when the heavens and earth shall be destroyed and a new heavens and new earth come out of that, does that mean Israel will be destroyed but they won't be destroyed?

Rev 21:24 And the nations shall be walking by means of its light, and the kings of the earth are carrying their glory into it."

Will Israel have more than one King (Jesus Christ) if by earth you mean "the kings of the Israel are carrying their glory into it"? Does that make sense to you that the kings of Israel come to the New Jerusalem in the future new earth?

Rev 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."

Did only Israel flee?

Rev 20:8 And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea."

How many nations are there in Israel anyway? 40? 100?

Or is this just another one of your "private interpretations" you wish to force on me?

I could go on and on with your private interpretation and look at all the heaven and earth passages and show it cannot possibly be Israel.

So let's get back to the Scriptures:

The Bible shows that each eon ends in catastrophe.
We know Israel did not exist until Jacob became Israel in the 3rd eon after Noah's flood. So we know the heavens and earth in Genesis which were destroyed and became chaos and vacant could not be Israel.

When the new heavens and earth came out of Noah's flood we know that could not be Israel because they were not around yet.

We know that when the great earthquake comes and all the cities of the nations fall that Israel will be included in that but they surely are not all the cities of the nations.

We know that when the heavens and earth is destroyed by fire that this means the whole earth and not just Israel.

Now then, friend, would you like to take another stab at it?

Tony

[Molly]

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
After all, they reason, the sun was not darkened and the moon did not fail to give her beams, and the stars did not fall from heaven, nor were the powers of the heavens shaken; the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven did not appear, all the tribes of the land did not grieve, nor did they see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory (Matt.24:29,30

Not that it's going to matter much at this point, but I'm giong to try playing this a little more.  It's not that we are ignoring those things that were to happen so that we can still hold our theology, it's that we/I believe regardless of what language it's written in, be it english, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew . . .none of those languages are God's language.  When he speaks to me, he doesn't speak in Hebrew because I don't know the language.  He speaks to me "in my tongue". 

But what is "his" language?  You've got a world here that you created, you create beings to reproduce . . . how would you talk to them?  You do it "through" your creation.  God's alphabet consists of trees, metals, colors, numbers, materials and elements (wind, water, fire, dirt, etc.)  That's "his" language.  And unlike the U.S., when you enter into his realm, you've got to know his language.  If you try to "interpret" his words, you risk missing the original intent of what is being said.

That's why Jesus spoke in parables, using natural things to reveal spiritual truth . .but those listening were stuck on the natural things so they couldn't make any sense of what he was saying because it was intended to be heard with spiritual ears.  But the Spirit was not yet poured out on all flesh . .but it would be, and Jesus knew that.   So he continued planting the seeds in the waterless soil, all the while, knowing that when the Spirit was poured out, these seeds would be activated in the hearts of men, and understanding of everything he said would then come.

That's "how" Peter knew that "this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel".  God proclaims his glory "through" the things he created.  The stars shine, the moon reflects and the sun illuminates the earth.  Sun, moon, and stars . . .you can NOT take this literally.  You MUST understand the language . .and the simplest way to do that is, to let SCRIPTURE interpet ITSELF.  Where else to you read of the sun, moon and stars together?  How about Joseph's dream??  He had the sun, moon and stars bow at his feet . .and who were they?  His family.  And who are his family?  They were the patriarchs of the nation of ISRAEL. 

Jesus cried over Israel and prayed over them.  He spoke of how he so desired to take them under his wing as a hen does with her chicks and they wouldn't let him.  as a result, it left them desolate.  It was lights out of the nation when Rome went in . . .this "A.D. 70" issue is not about a "day".  There were MANY things that were strange wonders that led up to the removal.  Voices were heard in the night, thunder was heard, light would shine and light up the enter city in the middle of the night . . .there was a merging of spirit and flesh during that time.   Just because "you" don't know of it, is not enough basis to claim that it didn't happen. 

The stars that fell . .you keep looking for natural stars . .. they've got nothing to do with it.  They are created for "signs" and seasons.  A star represents a prophet . .ships in the night can find their way by the alignment of the stars.  My ship is my belief system with which I navigate my life through the uncharted waters before me.  It's based on the prophets of God . .a prophet is simply one who speaks on the behalf of another.  Jude speaks of wandering stars being false prophets.  They are stars that fell from heaven (spiritual realm)

The powers of heaven are not shaken?  What do you think transpired during this slaughter?  It was recorded that there were earthquakes all over Israel in the day these things happened.  Even when Jesus died on the cross, there was a great earth quake.  It's a picture that proclaims there is a shifting beneath the surface of our understanding.  Israel was greatly shaken.  That's why not one stone was left on top of the other . . .God brought the entire religious system down to the dust from which it was originally erected.  You're not seeing it because you refuse to see it from any other perspective than the one "you" have chosen.

Another perfect and powerful post, Nathan.  Sometimes I think to myself how miraculous it is that a man with basically not much more than words could bring down a whole religious system in three years.  It happened just like he prophesied.  If there was ever proof to the unbeliever of who Jesus is, that's it.  Two thousand years later, there is still no temple and still no animal sacrifice. 

But, even so, the forces that run this world want to reinstate all of that.  Solomon's temple is hedged in every direction from being rebuilt, but they want to rebuild it.  They are trying to clone their red heiffer to restart animal sacrifice.  They want to run the world from Jerusalem.  They are not being prevented by money or power, because they have a lot of both, so it must be by God.

We like to separate the spiritual and the natural, but from God's point of view, they are all of one piece.  Are the atoms buzzing around in the chair that is supporting me spiritual or natural?  Are the electronic pulses whizzing through space that allow me to talk to you on a computer spiritual or natural?  What about the impulses firing in your brain that allow you to understand me?

If we live on the surface of things, the natural looks one way, the spiritual another.  But the deeper we go, the more they meet, because it all comes from God.

But to those that see a chair as a chair,  it is functional and useful, and nothing else.  Which is good--until they start demanding that others see it that way, too.

The one world religion that is being foisted on us now is nothing new.  It's the old religion of Babylon.  The Roman Empire never went away, it just changed forms to be less recognizable.  It is a religion of the carnal, of materialism, of man--and God has no place in it.  As long as that is still kicking around (and to my natural eyes winning),  Revelation has not yet been fulfilled.

[Tony N]

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
After all, they reason, the sun was not darkened and the moon did not fail to give her beams, and the stars did not fall from heaven, nor were the powers of the heavens shaken; the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven did not appear, all the tribes of the land did not grieve, nor did they see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory (Matt.24:29,30

Not that it's going to matter much at this point, but I'm giong to try playing this a little more.  It's not that we are ignoring those things that were to happen so that we can still hold our theology, it's that we/I believe regardless of what language it's written in, be it english, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew . . .none of those languages are God's language.  When he speaks to me, he doesn't speak in Hebrew because I don't know the language.  He speaks to me "in my tongue". 

But what is "his" language?  You've got a world here that you created, you create beings to reproduce . . . how would you talk to them?  You do it "through" your creation. 

My warning buzzer just went off with all sorts of red flags going up everywhere.

God wrote His revelation to us in Hebrew and Greek. The only way we can know what He said, what His revelation to us is is to either know Hebrew or Greek or to have a proper translation of them. Otherwise scripture just becomes a private interpretation.

Also, God never said in the Scriptures through the apostle Paul that if you want to know what God revealed through Paul go talk to a rock. He never said to go seek it out in nature. No.

Nathan, please, I don't want to go contrary to Scripture to find out what God revealed. God revealed His will to us through the Scriptures, not a cactus or a stream or a rock or tree.

This is sooooooooooooooooooooo far off topic.

Can we stick with the topic please? I don't need people's private interpretations of new age stuff.

[Zeek]

Zeek, are you really convinced  by that? I'm not in the least.

In Deuteronomy 31:1 Moses was wanting the heavens and earth to testify against Israel for they were already corrupt.

In Isaiah 1:1,2 which you quoted, again Isaiah is wanting the heavens and earth to testify concerning his words against Israel. It was a form of witness in the O.T.

So when heaven and earth shall pass away does that mean what?

Dear Zeek, when the heavens and earth shall be destroyed and a new heavens and new earth come out of that, does that mean Israel will be destroyed but they won't be destroyed?

Rev 21:24 And the nations shall be walking by means of its light, and the kings of the earth are carrying their glory into it."

Will Israel have more than one King (Jesus Christ) if by earth you mean "the kings of the Israel are carrying their glory into it"? Does that make sense to you that the kings of Israel come to the New Jerusalem in the future new earth?

Rev 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."

Did only Israel flee?

Rev 20:8 And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea."

How many nations are there in Israel anyway? 40? 100?

Or is this just another one of your "private interpretations" you wish to force on me?

I could go on and on with your private interpretation and look at all the heaven and earth passages and show it cannot possibly be Israel.

So let's get back to the Scriptures:

The Bible shows that each eon ends in catastrophe.
We know Israel did not exist until Jacob became Israel in the 3rd eon after Noah's flood. So we know the heavens and earth in Genesis which were destroyed and became chaos and vacant could not be Israel.

When the new heavens and earth came out of Noah's flood we know that could not be Israel because they were not around yet.

We know that when the great earthquake comes and all the cities of the nations fall that Israel will be included in that but they surely are not all the cities of the nations.

We know that when the heavens and earth is destroyed by fire that this means the whole earth and not just Israel.

Now then, friend, would you like to take another stab at it?

Tony

absolutely not, you've convinced me.   :grin: :grin:

[Tony N]

Something no preterist or partial preterist has been able to answer satisfactorily is this:

How did each and every event of Matthew 24 and 25 come to pass?

If Jesus meant that no one would see these things come to pass then, what's the point of telling anyone they would visibly come to pass?

If all of them visibly came to pass, why is it that not one person in church history or any historian recorded them as coming to pass in 70 A.D. or before 70 A.D. or after 70 A.D.?

This has much to do with John's vision we call Revelation.

So the Preterist and partial preterist wants to believe they came to pass but can't give a good reason that they did? But they believe they did anyway? Though no church historian or any other historian which saw Jerusalem destroyed like Josephus did records any of Matthew 24 or 25 coming to pass.

As to "this generation shall not pass till . . ." I thought this was a good response:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/thisgen.html

I didn't.

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
Jesus cried over Israel and prayed over them.  He spoke of how he so desired to take them under his wing as a hen does with her chicks and they wouldn't let him.  as a result, it left them desolate.  It was lights out of the nation when Rome went in . . .this "A.D. 70" issue is not about a "day".  There were MANY things that were strange wonders that led up to the removal.  Voices were heard in the night, thunder was heard, light would shine and light up the enter city in the middle of the night . . .there was a merging of spirit and flesh during that time.   Just because "you" don't know of it, is not enough basis to claim that it didn't happen. 

How bout some real proof? Which historian witnessed these things and what exactly did they write about them? What has that to do with the destruction of Jerusalem?
"Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." (Mat 24:29)
This is after the affliction, not during it. What historian wrote a first hand account about seeing the above things happen immediately after the great affliction that came upon Israel?

Which historian witnessed this:
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."

Which historian witnessed this:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."

Jesus said every eye shall see Him. He never said "only the hyper spiritual believers will see Him in a spiritual kind of way."

Did Josephus see this? . . .
Mat 24:31 And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities."

This is also supposed to occur at the conclusion of the eon/age.
Which of your historians witnessed this?. . .
Mat 25:31-46  Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,  (32)  and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.  (33)  And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left."  (34)  Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world."  (35)  For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;  (36)  naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'  (37)  Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?  (38)  Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?  (39)  Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'"  (40)  And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'"  (41)  Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."  (42)  For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;  (43)  a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'  (44)  Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'"  (45)  Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"  (46)  And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

[Nathan]

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
After all, they reason, the sun was not darkened and the moon did not fail to give her beams, and the stars did not fall from heaven, nor were the powers of the heavens shaken; the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven did not appear, all the tribes of the land did not grieve, nor did they see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory (Matt.24:29,30

Not that it's going to matter much at this point, but I'm giong to try playing this a little more.  It's not that we are ignoring those things that were to happen so that we can still hold our theology, it's that we/I believe regardless of what language it's written in, be it english, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew . . .none of those languages are God's language.  When he speaks to me, he doesn't speak in Hebrew because I don't know the language.  He speaks to me "in my tongue". 

But what is "his" language?  You've got a world here that you created, you create beings to reproduce . . . how would you talk to them?  You do it "through" your creation. 

My warning buzzer just went off with all sorts of red flags going up everywhere.

God wrote His revelation to us in Hebrew and Greek. The only way we can know what He said, what His revelation to us is is to either know Hebrew or Greek or to have a proper translation of them. Otherwise scripture just becomes a private interpretation.

Also, God never said in the Scriptures through the apostle Paul that if you want to know what God revealed through Paul go talk to a rock. He never said to go seek it out in nature. No.

Nathan, please, I don't want to go contrary to Scripture to find out what God revealed. God revealed His will to us through the Scriptures, not a cactus or a stream or a rock or tree.

This is sooooooooooooooooooooo far off topic.

Can we stick with the topic please? I don't need people's private interpretations of new age stuff.

Wow, this is a big moment for me . . .it's the first time anyone has ever called me a new ager . . .I'm impressed.  You talk of going off topic . .now "there's" a can of worms you really don't want to open here for sure!  Those things go everywhere and nowhere at the same time.  Let me have a chance to respond to your insinuations.


Hebrews 8
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount

Colossians 2
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:  17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

God speaks by way of patterns.  The tabernacle was patterned after Christ.  It was the type and shadow of the substance of truth.  Revelation is the unveiling of that same Christ.  You want to understand the book of Revelation?  Study the tabernacle, it's all over in Revelation because they both are the unveiling of the same thing.

Another favorite of mine that creates the platform for pursuing the patterns that lie beneath . . .
Romans 1
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven (that would be spiritual revelation) against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Here we go . . .
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

God's language is to use NATURAL things to REVEAL his SPIRITUAL truth in our lives.  We've been over this before, but the flesh profits nothing, it's only the spirit the gives life.  What profit is there to try to impose Revelation as a literal event that is yet to happen?  But ask that question from a spiritual perspective and you get a totally different answer.


God wrote His revelation to us in Hebrew and Greek. The only way we can know what He said, what His revelation to us is is to either know Hebrew or Greek or to have a proper translation of them.

I have to disagree with this on all levels.  To say that learning Greek or Hebrew is the key to unlocking all the mysteries is just inaccurate.  If that were true, then the Pharisees would have been Jesus greatest supporters . .but instead, they were his biggest adversary.  Why do you suppose that is?  I'm thinking it's because they lived by the literal letter of the law . .and it was never intended to be received in that manner.  it wasn't then, and it isn't now.  If it was, there would be countless passages telling us to forgo the voice and adhere to the letter.  But instead, it says just the opposite.  The letter "kills". 

The Word . .the written Word is just the frame work of the life contained within it.  To emphasize the frame, you're missing out on the completed temple.  There was a transfer from flesh to spirit through the work of the cross.  The word went from stone to flesh.  It went from head to heart.  Knowing Greek or Hebrew does "not" unlock anything that God doesn't reveal.  Knowledge comes by way of revelation, not the other way around.  Again, what else could "walk in the spirit" mean?

[Nathan]

Something no preterist or partial preterist has been able to answer satisfactorily is this:

How did each and every event of Matthew 24 and 25 come to pass?

If Jesus meant that no one would see these things come to pass then, what's the point of telling anyone they would visibly come to pass?

If all of them visibly came to pass, why is it that not one person in church history or any historian recorded them as coming to pass in 70 A.D. or before 70 A.D. or after 70 A.D.?

This has much to do with John's vision we call Revelation.

So the Preterist and partial preterist wants to believe they came to pass but can't give a good reason that they did? But they believe they did anyway? Though no church historian or any other historian which saw Jerusalem destroyed like Josephus did records any of Matthew 24 or 25 coming to pass.

As to "this generation shall not pass till . . ." I thought this was a good response:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/thisgen.html

I didn't.

Here's a snipit from the long, hard to stay focused, article.
Jesus cried over Israel and prayed over them.  He spoke of how he so desired to take them under his wing as a hen does with her chicks and they wouldn't let him.  as a result, it left them desolate.  It was lights out of the nation when Rome went in . . .this "A.D. 70" issue is not about a "day".  There were MANY things that were strange wonders that led up to the removal.  Voices were heard in the night, thunder was heard, light would shine and light up the enter city in the middle of the night . . .there was a merging of spirit and flesh during that time.   Just because "you" don't know of it, is not enough basis to claim that it didn't happen. 

How bout some real proof? Which historian witnessed these things and what exactly did they write about them? What has that to do with the destruction of Jerusalem?
"Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." (Mat 24:29)
This is after the affliction, not during it. What historian wrote a first hand account about seeing the above things happen immediately after the great affliction that came upon Israel?

Which historian witnessed this:
Mat 24:24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen."

Which historian witnessed this:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Mankind in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory."

Jesus said every eye shall see Him. He never said "only the hyper spiritual believers will see Him in a spiritual kind of way."

Did Josephus see this? . . .
Mat 24:31 And He shall be dispatching His messengers with a loud sounding trumpet, and they shall be assembling His chosen from the four winds, from the extremities of the heavens to their extremities."

This is also supposed to occur at the conclusion of the eon/age.
Which of your historians witnessed this?. . .
Mat 25:31-46  Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,  (32)  and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.  (33)  And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left."  (34)  Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world."  (35)  For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;  (36)  naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'  (37)  Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?  (38)  Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?  (39)  Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'"  (40)  And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'"  (41)  Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."  (42)  For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;  (43)  a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'  (44)  Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'"  (45)  Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"  (46)  And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

So many accusational questions here . . . but in a word . .yes.  Josephus was the source of many of those things you're asking about.  There is one place in particular where he speaks of the midnight sacrifice was taking place and at midnight, a light began to shine and it illuminated the entire city for a half and hour . . .there is a passage in Revelation that speaks of all of heaven being silent for a half hour. 

Much of what John saw was similar to what Ezekiel saw just before Babylon came in and destroyed the temple the first time.  He saw the same creatures, heard the same sounds, the cherubim, the voices the thunderings . . . he saw in the spirit what Babylon did in the flesh.  John saw in the spirit what Rome did in the flesh . . .the pattern is the same.

[Zeek]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

this might be intersting to some here.

[Tony N]

Tony wrote: Can we stick with the topic please? I don't need people's private interpretations of new age stuff.

Wow, this is a big moment for me . . .it's the first time anyone has ever called me a new ager

I never called you a new ager. So please, let's not go into accusations that are not true.

Please, all the other things you wrote about not needing the word to know what God has said is contrary to God's word.

[Tony N]

So many accusational questions here . . . but in a word . .yes.  Josephus was the source of many of those things you're asking about.  There is one place in particular where he speaks of the midnight sacrifice was taking place and at midnight, a light began to shine and it illuminated the entire city for a half and hour . . .there is a passage in Revelation that speaks of all of heaven being silent for a half hour. 

PROOF! Where is your proof. If you have none then just say so. Quote Josephus exactly, work, page please.

[Tony N]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

this might be intersting to some here.

Mat 24:29 Now immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not be giving her beams, and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

The above was to happen after 70 A.D. so Josephus did not witness Matthew 24.
Now can we have the exact words from Josephus that he saw fulfilled Matthew 24 as to all, yes ALL the events of Matt.24?

[Zeek]

what is the "affliction"?  and who was the affliction upon??  and then what happens?? 

I don't have time now to comment, but will try to get back to this this evening.