Tentmaker Forum

QuoteA.)  There are numerous types of fires in the Bible.  Not all of them are the same, so it is somewhat disconnected to make for example, a physical fire here on earth into the same fire as that of the infamous Lake of Fire.  There are also fires that come down from heaven.  One destroys God's enemies.  There is also a fire that burns but does not consume.  So in effect there is no way to logically connect "all of these fires" as having the same intent and purpose when that obviously is not the case

QuoteB.)  We know that the fire for the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS whom we know for a FACT to be headed to the Lake of Fire is the same fire as the fire presented by Jesus in Matthew 25 since we have both fire and the one's headed there being in both accounts, save the fire in Matthew 25 does not have the term "Lake" attached until Revelation accounts.

QuoteC.)  Since the "fire" in Matthew 25 is prepared or MADE for the devil and his messengers, it CANNOT be God as the consuming fire, as God is not a MADE thing.

QuoteI have put this query to several UR preachers who have been promoting this position, and most of them either cannot or will not address this situation.  I also have my own observations as to "why" they do not address this, and it revolves largely around many in UR who "believe" that their fellow man who are NOT believers are going to be tossed into that Lake of Fire for "temporary torture" and that suits a doctrine of fear peddling to "make" people believe as they believe, very similar in the way "eternal torture" of mankind believers "sell" their wares and gather their adherents and financial supporters.

Quote from: Taffy on August 19, 2007, 09:44:33 PM

The lake of fire is to destroy death and hell...is it not?
The fire that the Hebrew children were cast into did two things, burned only the wicked (those who cast them in) and the "son of man" appeared. The Children of God were infected in no way. Thus this fire was both a consuming (of evil) and a non-consuming (of good).

Same Fire with dual purpose...AMEN Vagabond....that which burns the Tares and leaves the wheat,,,...

Blessings
T

Quote from: willieH on August 20, 2007, 12:49:42 AM
willieH: Hi Taffy... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on August 19, 2007, 09:44:33 PM

The lake of fire is to destroy death and hell...is it not?
The fire that the Hebrew children were cast into did two things, burned only the wicked (those who cast them in) and the "son of man" appeared. The Children of God were infected in no way. Thus this fire was both a consuming (of evil) and a non-consuming (of good).

Same Fire with dual purpose...AMEN Vagabond....that which burns the Tares and leaves the wheat,,,...

Blessings
T

A few observances to consider my new friend...

DEATH and HELL (hades=grave) were DESTROYED at the CROSS... in THIS EARTH, in THIS TIME REALM... which IS the LAKE of FIRE...  CHRIST (2000 years ago) conquered DEATH and HELL... (1 Cor 15:54)  Death ...IS... swallowed up in victory! O ...DEATH... where is thy sting... O ...GRAVE... where is thy victory?

Though the COMPLETE manifestation of the ETERNAL has not yet been REVEALED... it ALREADY ...IS...   :myahoo:

The WRATH of GOD is NOW (Rom 1:18)... the JUDGMENT is NOW (John 12:32)... The SUFFERING is NOW (Rom 8:18)... these are ALL happening within TIME... and TIME's experience of these, is as noted in Ecc 3 and...

TIME shall END (Rev 10:6 / John 6:44 / John 12:48)

ALL have been "blotted out"... ALL have left their "first love"... ALL are subjected to the FIRE (Mk 9:49)... and ALL are WRITTEN in the BOOK of the Lamb's LIFE...  :gangel:

More to say later, gotta go...  :laughing7:

PeAcE...  :gamer:

In 

JESUS

...willieH   :angel4:

QuoteThough the COMPLETE manifestation of the ETERNAL has not yet been REVEALED... it ALREADY ...IS...  

The WRATH of GOD is NOW (Rom 1:18)... the JUDGMENT is NOW (John 12:32)... The SUFFERING is NOW (Rom 8:18)... these are ALL happening within TIME... and TIME's experience of these, is as noted in Ecc 3 and...

TIME shall END (Rev 10:6 / John 6:44 / John 12:48)

QuoteFor whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. ....

Quote from: julzabro2 on August 25, 2007, 03:50:42 PM
I think the 1st death is the spiritual death where one puts off the old man and becomes an "overcomer". Therefore, the 2nd death....physical death...does not affect he who has overcome the old man by putting faith in Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 25, 2007, 01:59:30 PM



Sounds right to me! 

What do you think is the "first" death?

Quote from: Stardust75 on August 26, 2007, 06:16:27 PM
Willie H quoted:

"Scripture does NOT indicate that those in CHRIST shall not partake of the 2nd Death, it just notes those shall not be HURT of it... WHY you ask?  Because those in CHRIST, do not take SHAME into the Resurrection from that DEATH... (Rev 2:11)"

Quote from: Stardust75 on August 26, 2007, 06:16:27 PM
Willie H quoted:

"Scripture does NOT indicate that those in CHRIST shall not partake of the 2nd Death, it just notes those shall not be HURT of it... WHY you ask?  Because those in CHRIST, do not take SHAME into the Resurrection from that DEATH... (Rev 2:11)"

Question?

Those outside of Jesus Christ take shame into the resurrection? What exactly does that mean? Could you explain further....

Quote from: Stardust75 on August 26, 2007, 06:16:27 PM
Willie H quoted:

"Scripture does NOT indicate that those in CHRIST shall not partake of the 2nd Death, it just notes those shall not be HURT of it... WHY you ask?  Because those in CHRIST, do not take SHAME into the Resurrection from that DEATH... (Rev 2:11)"

Quote from: REDNOW, "I've" got a question. Willie, or anyone.......there is a "death" that is said to be the last enemy?

It says it is the "last enemy" to be DESTROYED!

What do you think that is?

Quote from: Kratos on August 26, 2007, 09:11:58 PM
To add to Red's question, Willie said that all are partaker of the second death. Does this mean that you do not believe that there will be a generation of Overcomers that will overcome this second death and just be changed in a twinkling of an eye without tasting this second death?

John

Quote from: julzabro2 on August 25, 2007, 03:50:42 PM
I think the 1st death is the spiritual death where one puts off the old man and becomes an "overcomer". Therefore, the 2nd death....physical death...does not affect he who has overcome the old man by putting faith in Jesus Christ.

Quote from: willieH on August 26, 2007, 11:11:16 PM
willieH: Hi John... :hithere:

Quote from: Kratos on August 26, 2007, 09:11:58 PM
To add to Red's question, Willie said that all are partaker of the second death. Does this mean that you do not believe that there will be a generation of Overcomers that will overcome this second death and just be changed in a twinkling of an eye without tasting this second death?

John

There (to my knowledge) is no Scripture which states that ANYONE shall escape the 2nd Death...  The Scriptures state that the OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall not be HURT of it (Rev 3:11), but does NOT SAY... that those OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall escape the 2nd Death...

It is the FIRST death which is OVERCOME in this LIFE... by becoming IN CHRIST within THIS LIFE... not all shall become IN CHRIST, in this life...

All DIE the 2nd DEATH... which is PHYSICAL DEATH...  :nod:

Peace...  :Sparkletooth:

In 

JESUS

...willieH :gamer:

Quote from: Kratos on August 26, 2007, 09:11:58 PM
To add to Red's question, Willie said that all are partaker of the second death. Does this mean that you do not believe that there will be a generation of Overcomers that will overcome this second death and just be changed in a twinkling of an eye without tasting this second death?

John

Quote from: willieHThere (to my knowledge) is no Scripture which states that ANYONE shall escape the 2nd Death...  The Scriptures state that the OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall not be HURT of it (Rev 3:11), but does NOT SAY... that those OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall escape the 2nd Death...

It is the FIRST death which is OVERCOME in this LIFE... by becoming IN CHRIST within THIS LIFE... not all shall become IN CHRIST, in this life...

All DIE the 2nd DEATH... which is PHYSICAL DEATH...  :nod:

Peace...  :Sparkletooth:

In 

JESUS

...willieH :gamer:

Quote from: JohnWillie,

Don't these verses speak of a generation of Ovecomers that will overcome the second death by being changed into their immortal bodies without going the way of death?

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Quote from: willieH on August 27, 2007, 08:34:10 AM

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Quote from: bobf on August 27, 2007, 08:31:41 PM

Quote from: willieH on August 27, 2007, 08:34:10 AM

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Hey Willie,

As I see it Revelation 20:14 says [1] but not [2].

[1] 2nd death = death and hades cast into the lake of fire
[2] 2nd death = death and hades

In other words it appears to me that Rev 20:14 says that the second death is a consuming process which wipes out death and hades.

God bless,
Bob

Quote from: bobf on August 27, 2007, 08:31:41 PM

Quote from: willieH on August 27, 2007, 08:34:10 AM

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Hey Willie,

As I see it Revelation 20:14 says [1] but not [2].

[1] 2nd death = death and hades cast into the lake of fire
[2] 2nd death = death and hades

In other words it appears to me that Rev 20:14 says that the second death is a consuming process which wipes out death and hades.

God bless,
Bob

Quote from: Craig on August 27, 2007, 09:34:28 PM
And the names of the cowardly, unbelieving, murderer, sorcerer, and all liars.

Quote from: squint on August 27, 2007, 10:58:58 PM
Deuteronomy 8:3
He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

Men will live by EVERY WORD of God.  If you have found "death" or "torture" for your fellow man by Gods Word, then you have not yet eaten the Bread of Life that is for all and unto ALL, today and forever.

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Quote from: Taffy on August 28, 2007, 03:46:54 PM
I see a physical and spiritual difference with the above..

The literal word to be Lived by UNDER the OLD COVENANT

Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in(by) them.

We know the WORD of God IS CHRIST and HIS WORDS are SPIRIT

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 


(Jhn 14:23 - 1Cr 14:19)
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you

could these just be the WORD\WORDS of faith which we live by?

seems Paul Lived by THIS WORD OF FAITH in his heart

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



contrary to those who are yet to have their eyes \eyes and Heart OPENED

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.


Isa 35:2  It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God.


Isa 35:3  Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.


Isa 35:4  Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you.


Isa 35:5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.


Isa 35:6  Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
 
For mine the WICKED is HE who sits  on GODS Throne until Christ is Revealed


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: bobf on August 27, 2007, 10:46:14 PM

Quote from: Craig on August 27, 2007, 09:34:28 PM
And the names of the cowardly, unbelieving, murderer, sorcerer, and all liars.

What exactly does it mean to wipe out a name, or for that matter to receive a new name?  Does a name represent a spirit, a way of being and thinking?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Are "seed" and the "name" two ways of saying the same thing?

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name.

Is this one person at two different times or two separate sets of people?

Quote from: willieH on September 17, 2007, 03:11:04 AM
willieH: Hi Chris...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

First death = SPIRIT... men die in spirit when we sin... CHRIST died TO REDEEM us from this death, and tasted DEATH for us in this capacity... (Heb 2:9) He did NOT taste PHYSICAL death for us... we do this ourselves in the...

Second death = PHYSICAL... men die this death, it is the WAGES of SIN.  WE DIE it for ourselves.  WE are APPOINTED to die this death ourselves (Heb 9:27)... (return to the earth - our seed dies awaiting RESURRECTION - Gen 3:19) 

sHaLOm  :icon_king:

In 

JESUS

...willieH  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on September 17, 2007, 03:11:04 AM
willieH: Hi Chris...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

First death = SPIRIT... men die in spirit when we sin... CHRIST died TO REDEEM us from this death, and tasted DEATH for us in this capacity... (Heb 2:9) He did NOT taste PHYSICAL death for us... we do this ourselves in the...

Second death = PHYSICAL... men die this death, it is the WAGES of SIN.  WE DIE it for ourselves.  WE are APPOINTED to die this death ourselves (Heb 9:27)... (return to the earth - our seed dies awaiting RESURRECTION - Gen 3:19) 

sHaLOm  :icon_king:

In 

JESUS

...willieH  :cloud9:

QuoteHi Wilie H.  :hiya:

So you are saying that PHYSICAL death is the wage of sin?

QuoteI'd have to disagree.  :wink1:

QuoteAs I see it, man was never immortal, but he suffered the wage of sin ("death", spiritual) through Adam's transgression. This (being "dead" in sin, having "no life" in us), to me, is the wage of sin.

QuoteThose who overcome ARE NOT HURT by the second death. What man is "hurt" by physical death?

QuoteRev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

QuoteRev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

QuoteSo if you are saying that the second death = physical death, then you are saying that death and hell being cast into the lake of fire = physical death? That the lake of fire = physical death?

QuoteI am not seeing that connection.

I just started looking at some of this last night, trying to look at how it is "appointed unto men, ONCE to die" in relation to "the second death" and the fact that one can be "twice dead" (plucked up from the roots). To me it all seems to tie back to the cross and the death of Jesus Christ (the second man and last Adam). Just beginning the study it, though, so I can't comment on it too much right now; but it's been nagging my mind for a few days now.  :grin:

Quote from: WillieH

Let me say that I stand partially corrected...

DEATH is the WAGE of SIN...

The DEATH which CHRIST died was a "wage" which was paid for REDEMPTION of the vessel of HONOR in each one, and was on behalf of the FIRST DEATH which each man dies, in the SPIRIT...

MAN is APPOINTED Once to die(for Himself) (Heb 9:27) and it is the 2nd DEATH which HE dies... (for the 1st death is in Spirit and CHRIST tasted this death FOR each man)...  This is also a "wage" which is required at the hand of SIN, and is the DEATH of the CARNAL (vessel of DISHONOR)...

Quote from: WillieHIt's okay to disagree bro...  :happygrin:

Quote from: WillieHOkay Chris... now I'm going to have to "disagree"  :wink1:

You say above that man was "never" immortal... I agree, that in the realm of TIME man has not been in an IMMORTAL state, for it is in the REALM of TIME that ALL DEATH has occured... No DEATH has happened or ever will happen in REALM of ETERNITY... and God so notes this:  (Rev 21:4)

The only "MORTALITY" that has been, is completely found in the REALM of TIME...

So concerning the REALM of TIME, I agree man is "never" IMMORTAL... however he IS IMMORTAL both preceeding his entry into time, and after his exit FROM IT...

Quote from: WillieHThose which take UNFORGIVEN SIN to the grave of THIS LIFE... shall bring it in NAKEDNESS and SHAME (as Did Adam & Eve upon sinning in the Garden)... the "HURT" is the APPEARANCE of these before ALL, especially GOD and the Lamb... (Rev 14:10) this shame and nakedness is TORMENTING as also noted in the experience of the REVELATION of the SIN Adam & Eve...

Quote from: WillieHDEATH and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... this IS the LAKE of FIRE... DEATH and "hell" (which is actually GRAVE/Hades) are a prevalent part of THIS LIFE Chris...

QuoteThis list is one that can be applied to EVERY human being... JESUS CHRIST is the TRUTH, all have fallen short (in opposition) to that TRUTH, and therefore are LIARS... Paul notes this in Rom 3:4  Let's take the list one by one:

1. SORCERERS: The word "sorcerers" is the Greek word Pharmakeus from which is derived DRUGS and PHARMACY...
2.  IDOLOTRY...anything that is HELD above the WILL of YHVH is IDOLOTRY... just our sin alone is idolotry... but people find many other instances to practice this in everyday life... Idolizing TV, MOVIE, MUSIC personalities, even ones own CHILDREN too highly esteemed finds its way into this category... moving on...
3. MURDERERS:  JESUS said that even to be angry with your brother without just cause is the commitment of this... just about everyone has had this occurence in life... jumping to conclusions, and thereby hating or holding anger on false foundations...
4. WHOREMONGERS  Pretty much is LUST of the FLESH in sexuality... anyone that denies this has happened in their life at one time or another, simply verifies #1 on this list...
5. ABOMINABLE: This word means DETEST or ABHOR... which applies to ALL that SIN... the only HUMAN this word does not fit was CHRIST...

Quote from: WillieHThe lake which burns with FIRE ...and... BRIMSTONE... is the LIFE we are amidst... Brimstone is a PURIFYING agent...

Quote from: WillieHThe LAKE of FIRE = THIS LIFE... and all within it...

QuoteDEATH and HELL were not the ONLY things cast into the LAKE... the list above names all the applicants... DEATH was destroyed (in ETERNAL terms) at the CROSS of CHRIST...

Quote from: WillieHALL DEATH (in ANY FORM, spiritual or physical), has been prevalent ONLY in the REALM of TIME...

Quote from: WillieHThe verse you quote above... I believe can be read as follows...  This is the 2nd death... DEATH [in all forms] and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... [bracket comments are mine]

QuoteKeep studying brother... things come at the  decision of God, whilst we are amidst our searching...  :happygrin:

Quote from: WillieHPeace brother...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH  :gamer:

Quote from: Craig on September 23, 2007, 03:25:04 AM
The Names of those who are not in the Lambs book of Life, is not sinners. Jesus came to save sinners, the Names belong to the system of the Law which apostate Israel held as the Way of salvation. They are not in the Lambs book of Life and as I said if you read John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, you will find out those names are all the names Jesus or John called the Pharisee. Second Death is not for us, never has been. You must take Revelation's proposition that if you are overcomer in Christ Jesus, Second Death has no power over you. If we thought Second Death is the death of the sin part in us, WE WANT IT TO HAVE POWER OVER US. Yet, that is not what it says, therefore Second Death is not the death of the 'sin' part of us. It is talking about Judiasm and those who have fallen back to the Law. The Law must die, that is Second Death and those who live by the Law....die by it as well. There is no overcomer to those who live in obedience to the Law, because Righteousness apart from the Law which comes by faith has come. I used to believe Second Death was the death of the 'sin' part of us, that it was our 'physical death'. After debating it, and discussing it for over three years now, it becomes more apparent who and what John was talking about in Revelation.

The Lake of Fire is Gehenna.
Gehenna represents a Judgment against Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God is not found in Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God seeks worshippers who worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Those who continue to find righteousness by the Law (Israel, Judah, Jersualem and the Temple) will not find it but suffer the Lake of Fire.
Lake of Fire is Second Death, it is the Final Death of the covenant of Death and the agreement with Shoel.
The Sea [Israel] must give up it's dead, Death [The Law] must give up it's dead, Sheol [The Agreement] must give up it's dead and Death and Sheol are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The names of those who are not written in the Lambs book of life also are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Satan, False Prophet and His followers are also thrown into the Lake of Fire.
This is Second Death.

That is exactly what it is, we just been taught doom all this time, but it isn't the apocolypse, it is the end. The end scares people, because they think of their death and have no hope and so fear the end, instead of embracing the hope which comes at the end. That is the Apocolypse, all that condemned us will be destroyed, all that had authority to bind us on earth, is destroyed, all the systems and seperations and divisions of people which kept us divided will be destroyed. In the END, God will be all in all.

This has been happening since 33 AD. What was and is and is to come, has not stopped coming.

QuoteCraig, I have a question for you,

what if a person adheres to the system of law abiding for righteousness, in this life; and gets to the end of themselves,their self righteousness, and turns to the Lord by faith (in this life), and then live the rest of their life by the faith of Christ.  Then would you say these people went through second death, the death of mode of life of adherence to self righteousness?? 

Quoteor would you say no,

because they had time (in this life) to build up reward (through faith in Christ), and that second death is the result of "no reward" at the "coming Day of the Lord", something future?? 

hope this makes sense??

Quote from: JillieRose on January 19, 2008, 12:17:36 PM
A question or seven:

As regards the book of Revelation specifically: ok, I get that the Christians are resurrected, and that there is reigning with Christ for a thousand years while the enemy is bound. No clue what it means, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that it's what will happen. Rev 20:4-6.

QuoteThen, after the 1000 years, the rest of the dead are resurrected. The Enemy is released from prison and deceives the nations, who surround the saints in their camp, v9, and God consumes them in fire. Then the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire, and the false prophet, because he deceived the nations.

I'm beginning to wonder how much of the symbolism is symbolism for then, as opposed to now, but that's a side issue.

QuoteAnyway, Devil consumed in lake of fire.

Then, v11, great white throne, and judgement according to the works recorded in the books, v12.

Then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and those whose names were not in the Book of Life (v14 and 15).

QuoteThen there's a new Heaven and a new earth, (21v1) and God will make His home among mortals, those who conquer v7. The lake of fire is for the liars, polluted, etc. (v8) Nothing unclean will enter the city, but only those in the book of life (v27).

Now, there are numerous arguments one can make from the Bible as a whole for universal reconciliation, but I'm really not seeing it here. I suppose one might wonder about the leaves of the tree of life, which are for the healing of the nations, (22v2), but that's not exactly clear. Nor am I sure about the gates never being shut, because...well, who's outside to enter it? There's nothing which suggests that the second death is anything but...well, permanent. Because...well, no more death here. That's it finished.

QuoteThere's nothing there(you can make your case elsewhere) but there's nothing contained in these verses which suggests anything other than annihilation for those whose names are not in the book of Life.

QuoteBegin supposition: Even if they came out of the fire (which isn't mentioned anywhere here) then they still could not enter the city, even though the gates are open. Not because they have sin any more (because the fire would burn it away, I guess) but because in spite of that, their names are NOT in the book of life. (v27)

QuoteSee my problem here? The lake of fire, the second death, seems to come as an end in the book of Revelation. At least because I can't see a mention of those who went into it at any later point.

Quote from: JillieRose on January 21, 2008, 10:12:25 AM
Dear SeekerSA,
--snip--

Here's my line of reasoning: because we are in Christ (who chose us and saved us by the free gift of grace, so that none may boast) our names (plural) are in this book (in Christ). But not because of anything we have done, you understand? Being in Christ, and being in this book are the same thing. Which (I think) is what the text suggests, rather than Christ is the name in the book, which I can't see Biblical support for anywhere, but hey. I am wrong about a great many things: that this may be one of them is not surprising, no?

Anyway, this thread has been of great use as clarification of my thoughts, so thank you for your patience with a newbie!  :icon_flower:

Quote from: SpiritDriven on January 21, 2008, 11:28:12 AM
Hi Group...ever notice how Scripture describes those at the first resurrection....how the second death has no power over them....

Thats because they have already died to Sin...they where the dead and buried in Christ.

Them that that goes to the second death, have too, how else they gonna die to sin eh!
The Lake of fire does a top job of totaly destroying the old vile sinner man, non glorified body they where resurrected with.....fizzel pop...died to sin at long last.

We see them again later on at the consummation, because the only thing holding them back now is death....

Who is the final enemy God does away with....


Peace

QuoteIt is one BIG Onion

Quote from: JillieRose on January 21, 2008, 05:38:44 PM

QuoteIt is one BIG Onion

That deserves quoting somewhere :)

"The Book of Revelation: One big onion."

Hmm. Yes, I can see where you're coming from here. I shall go think about it some more.

Quote from: willieH on August 20, 2007, 12:49:42 AM
willieH: Hi Taffy... :hithere:

Quote from: Taffy on August 19, 2007, 09:44:33 PM

The lake of fire is to destroy death and hell...is it not?
The fire that the Hebrew children were cast into did two things, burned only the wicked (those who cast them in) and the "son of man" appeared. The Children of God were infected in no way. Thus this fire was both a consuming (of evil) and a non-consuming (of good).

Same Fire with dual purpose...AMEN Vagabond....that which burns the Tares and leaves the wheat,,,...

Blessings
T

A few observances to consider my new friend...

DEATH and HELL (hades=grave) were DESTROYED at the CROSS... in THIS EARTH, in THIS TIME REALM... which IS the LAKE of FIRE...  CHRIST (2000 years ago) conquered DEATH and HELL... (1 Cor 15:54)  Death ...IS... swallowed up in victory! O ...DEATH... where is thy sting... O ...GRAVE... where is thy victory?

Though the COMPLETE manifestation of the ETERNAL has not yet been REVEALED... it ALREADY ...IS...   :myahoo:

The WRATH of GOD is NOW (Rom 1:18)... the JUDGMENT is NOW (John 12:32)... The SUFFERING is NOW (Rom 8:18)... these are ALL happening within TIME... and TIME's experience of these, is as noted in Ecc 3 and...

TIME shall END (Rev 10:6 / John 6:44 / John 12:48)

ALL have been "blotted out"... ALL have left their "first love"... ALL are subjected to the FIRE (Mk 9:49)... and ALL are WRITTEN in the BOOK of the Lamb's LIFE...  :gangel:

More to say later, gotta go...  :laughing7:

PeAcE...  :gamer:

In 

JESUS

...willieH   :angel4:

Quote from: vagabond on August 19, 2007, 06:53:00 PM
I would like to lay out an outline of how i view the "lake of fire".

First, we know that God is referred to as a "consuming fire".

We also know that God is Light and in him there is no darkness.

We know also that fire, even at the time of Cain and Abel was used to sacrifice animals as an atonement. In fact, it is suggested that fire would come down and consume the sacrifice if the sacrifice was acceptable to God. If it was not acceptable no fire would come from heaven and consume it.This may be how Cain knew that his sacrifice was not acceptable. This is quite possibly why Job knew he was in good standing with God, he had sacrificed for himself and for his sons and daughters (just in case).

The tabernacle, the outer court was lightened by the natural sun, thus the sacrifice and atonement's were for the natural man. The innercourt was lightened by the candlestick (the Holy Spirit in-part) Church realm? The most Holy place was lightened by the Glory of the very presence of God. Anyone entering this place defiled would drop dead. Now we know what the glory of God consumes....evil.

The face of Moses shown like an angel, so bright they had to veil his face. At his death he still looked like a young man (one cannot even age in this glory)

Christ, on the mount of transformation, when in the presence of the two witnesses became clothed in the glory of God's brightness.

And Steven, at his stoning, his face shown like an angel as he declared "lay not this sin to their charge". This is perhaps the best example of the Lake of fire, for at that time there was wailing and gnashing of teeth also:
Acts 7:54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Comparing that with:Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Elijah called for fire from heaven.

Jesus said:Luke 12:49
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Now to the point....Jesus is like the tree...his body of many members is the forest. Jesus was but a flame....but the many membered body of Christ is like a lake of fire.

Steven stood before the Elders, being "FILLED" (not in-part) but "FILLED" with the Holy Spirit. Using the Word of God he cut them to the heart and exposed their inner thoughts and intents to the light of God.

Can you imagine what a "MANY membered body" of Steven's would be like?

Now then, keeping in mind that being in the very presence of God, as Moses, the physical body could not even age, let's look at 1 Cor.15) 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

This verse shows me that a generation coming won't see physical death, but will change/transform while they are still using their natural bodies.

:53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  

Is this not the manifestation of the sons of God, the many membered body? Is this not even the "rapture itself"? And what would a body of lights look like all moving in one accord? Like a lake of light(s)? A large body of fire?

And just as trees exchange bad air for good air, how would this body effect this world?

Isaiah 31:9
And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

This is what i'm seeing as the lake of fire.

Quote from: Dallas on June 29, 2008, 08:31:07 AM
David Chilton;

"As I mentioned above, much of the Bible is written in symbols. A helpful way to understand this, perhaps, would be to speak of these symbols as a set of patterns and associations. By this I mean that Biblical symbolism is not a code. It is, instead, a way of seeing, a perspective. For example, when Jesus speaks of "living water" (John 4:10), we rightly recognize that He is using water as a symbol. We understand that when He spoke to the woman at the well, He was not merely offering her "water." He was offering her eternal life. But He called it "water." We should immediately ask: Why did He do that? He could have simply said "eternal life." Why did He speak in metaphor? Why did He want her to think of water?

Now this is where we can make a big mistake, and this is the primary error of some interpreters who try to take a "symbolic" approach. It is to think that Biblical symbolism is primarily a puzzle for us to solve. We can suddenly decide: "Aha! Water is a special code-word which means eternal life. That means that whenever the Bible talks about water symbolically, it is really talking about eternal life; whenever someone takes a drink, he is really becoming a Christian." It just doesn't work that way (as you will see if you try to apply it throughout the Bible). Besides, what sense would it make for the Bible simply to put everything in code? The Bible is not a book for spies and secret societies; it is God's revelation of Himself to His covenant people. The puzzle-solving, mystical interpretation tends to be speculative; it does not pay sufficient attention to the way the Bible itself speaks.

When Jesus offered "water" to the woman, He wanted her to think of the multiple imagery connected with water in the Bible. In a general sense, of course, we know that water is associated with the Spiritual refreshment and sustenance of life which comes through salvation. But the Biblical associations with water are much more complex than that. This is because understanding Biblical symbolism does not mean cracking a code. It is much more like reading good poetry.

The symbolism of the Bible is not structured in a flat, this-means-that style. Instead, it is meant to be read visually. We are to see the images rise before us in succession, layer upon layer, allowing them to evoke a response in our minds and hearts. The prophets did not write in order to create stimulating intellectual exercises. They wrote to teach. They wrote in visual, dramatic symbols; and if we would fully understand their message we must appreciate their vocabulary. We must read the Bible visually. The visual symbols themselves, and what the Bible says about them, are important aspects of what God wants us to learn; otherwise, He wouldn't have spoken that way.

So, when the Bible tells us a story about water, it is not "really" telling us about something else; it is telling us about water. But at the same time we are expected to see the water, and to think of the Biblical associations with regard to water. The system of interpretation offered here is neither "literalistic" nor "symbolic"; it takes the "water" seriously and literally, but it also takes seriously what God's Word associates with water throughout the history of Biblical revelation.

What are some of the Biblical associations which might have occurred to the woman at the well, and to the disciples? Here are a few of them:



The watery, fluid mass that was the original nature of the earth at the creation, and out of which God formed all life (Gen. 1);


The great river of Eden that watered the whole earth (Gen. 2);


The salvation of Noah and his family by the waters of the Flood, out of which the earth was re-created (Gen. 6-9);


God's gracious revelations to Hagar by a fountain (Gen. 16) and a well (Gen. 21);


The well called Rehoboth, where God gave Isaac dominion (Gen. 26);


The river out of which the infant Moses, the future Deliverer of Israel, was taken and made a prince (Ex.2);


The redemptive crossing of the Red Sea, where God again saved His people by water (Ex. 14);


The water that flowed from the stricken Rock at Sinai, giving life to the people (Ex. 17);


The many ritual sprinklings in the Old Testament, signifying the removal of filth, pollution, sickness and death, and the bestowal of the Spirit upon the priests (e.g., Lev. 14; Num. 8);


The crossing of the Jordan River (Josh. 3);


The sound of rushing waters made by the pillar of cloud (Ezek. 1);


The River of Life flowing from the Temple and healing the Dead Sea (Ezek. 47).


Thus, when the Bible speaks of water, we are supposed to have in our minds a vast host of associative concepts, a complex of Biblical images that affects our thinking about water. To put it differently, water is supposed to be something like a "buzzword," a term that calls up many associations and connotations. When we read the word water we should be reminded of God's saving acts and revelations by water throughout Scripture. The Bible uses many of these "buzz-words," and increases the number of them as it goes on; until, by the time we get to Revelation (the capstone of Biblical prophecy), they all come rushing toward us at once, in a blizzard of associative references, some of which are obvious, some obscure. To the one who really knows his Bible and has noted the literary patterns and images, much of the book will look familiar; to the rest of us, it's confusing. In Revelation, we are confronted with all the Biblical connotations of numerous images: not only water, but light, fire, clouds, angels, stars, lamps, food, stones, swords, thrones, rainbows, robes, thunder, voices, animals, wings, scavengers, eyes, keys, trumpets, plagues, mountains, winds, seas, altars, blood, locusts, trees, heads, horns, and crowns.

Quote from: Loveroftruth on July 17, 2008, 03:26:50 PM
It opens up the Bible in a totally new way, everything suddenly makes sense  :thumbsup:

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on July 20, 2008, 11:53:51 PM
Wow. That is an overstatement.

Quote from: waitinontheLamb on July 20, 2008, 11:53:51 PM
Preterism is one view that makes you spiritualize way too much literal teaching in the Bible. No way.

QuoteWhen Paul wrote to the Romans, he advised them that the hour had come for them to realize that their salvation was much sooner than originally expected (Rom. 13:11). Then, he told them that it would not be long before God crushed Satan under their feet (Rom. 16:20). James instructed the people to be patient until the coming of the Lord. Next, he stated that Jesus and the Judgment were coming soon (Jas. 5:7-9). Paul informed the Philippians that the Lord's coming was near (Php. 4:5). The author of Hebrews wrote that the Old Covenant was in the process of passing away and that it would shortly be abolished (Heb. 8:13).

QuoteBut, one thing that seems clear, although this was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered, it was the last time the temple was ever in existence, and the last time (I think) that they performed animal sacrifice.  It seems like it was indeed the end of an era.

Quote
I'm not sure I understand this.  This is actually the first time I've read about Preterism, but believing that when Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon," He actually means soon as we understand it, not soon as in "approximately two millennia from now," seems to be the more literal teaching to me.

Quote from: SOtW on August 20, 2008, 06:24:28 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2008, 05:16:55 AM

Quote from: willieHTHIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper. :dontknow:



1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Believers don't go through the Lake of Fire. This cannot be the Lake of Fire, because it happens last.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 12:49:21 AM
Hi Willie!  :HeartThrob:

I have a really hard time understanding what you wrote. I'm not even sure the next questions have relevance in this thread  :umnick:

Are you saying we are now living in LoF?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 12:49:21 AMDoes that mean we are already dead?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 12:49:21 AMWhy so much sinning during this correctional period?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 12:59:45 AM
I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 12:59:45 AMI think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 01:58:33 AM
For instance... the LAMB SLAIN from the foundation of the WORLD... IS... a NOW thing, ...not a "was" or "will be" thing...

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 01:57:47 AM
baptised WITH FIRE?....SEEMS like Christ to me, could this be the SAME FIRE willie talks about..or are these two different fires....that being the LAKE...or does this fire have two different purposes..

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 02:13:22 AM

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 01:57:47 AM
baptised WITH FIRE?....SEEMS like Christ to me, could this be the SAME FIRE willie talks about..or are these two different fires....that being the LAKE...or does this fire have two different purposes..

I've even heard Rod Parsley, an ET preacher from Columbus, Ohio, say that it's the exact same fire and that the only difference is the condition of the heart.

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 02:21:55 AM
Im asking Martin , not enquiring who else said it...got an opinion yourself?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 02:24:41 AM

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 02:21:55 AM
Im asking Martin , not enquiring who else said it...got an opinion yourself?

There's no question to me that it's the exact same fire.  I'm just startled that ETers can see and believe the same thing, while still drawing an opposite conclusion.  That's the good ol' KJV for you, as well as long standing tradition of nonsense about the "fate" of the wicked.

QuoteI'm sorry if this might sound a bit confusing to some... but to note SPIRITUAL concepts in words, is sometimes a difficult endeavor...

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 02:31:10 AM
so, could we conclude that Christ is this CONSUMING fire,which is Now ,and which was ,and which is to COME,being the same Fire , named the lake of fire...if this be so ?what willie suggests ,The Lake being Christ AS WELL, is NOW....simple enough for simple minds like me...

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 02:31:10 AM
so, could we conclude that Christ is this CONSUMING fire,which is Now ,and which was ,and which is to COME,being the same Fire , named the lake of fire...if this be so ?what willie suggests ,The Lake being Christ AS WELL, is NOW....simple enough for simple minds like me...

:icon_flower:

QuoteThis being the case, where's the need for afterlife punishment?  The difference between how the Lake relates to us and how it relates to the world is based upon the condition of the heart. 

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 12:59:45 AM
I think what throws a lot of people from this passage is the fact, that again appealing to chronology, Revelation 20 implies bodily resurrection prior to the Lake of Fire judgment.

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 01:20:44 AMThe Lake of Fire is part of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is not in dispute, so I have no idea why it is even the title of this. The issue WillieH makes is that we are presently living in the Lake of Fire, that is in dispute.

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 01:20:44 AMThe Lake of Fire is Second Death.

QuoteSecond Death has no power over those who trust in the Lord. If it has no power, it has no power period; that means, no power to correct, no power to lift up and edify, no power to destroy, no power at all.

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 01:20:44 AMThere is no way around what both Martin and I brought up, scripturally, biblically, logically, reasonably or even emotionally. To say we are living in the Lake of Fire is not just is not the case.

QuoteThe Lake of Fire is final Judgment for those who continued to live according to their sinful natures, for those who did not continue to trust in the Lord (described as keeping their robes clean in the blood of Christ).

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 01:20:44 AMThere is no way around what both Martin and I brought up so simply which says this life, or present age, is NOT the Lake of Fire.

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 03:57:49 AM
Be Nice,..lets have a GOOD healthy discussion....you bring out the BEST and worst of you,..you BOTH KNOW this....

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 21, 2008, 03:52:53 AM
Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 04:19:57 AM
willieH: Hi brother Paul   :dsunny:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 21, 2008, 03:52:53 AM
Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

I believe THIS LIFE alone, is the LAKE of FIRE... and that the only thing which remains for anyone, is to be raised CLOTHED in CHRIST finding the RICHES (Rom 2:4 / Rev 3:18) in that "clothing"... OR... to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

Either way, there is no TORMENTING FIRE which shall burn anyone... rather, the PASSIONATE, FORGIVING and TENDER LOVE of GOD... welcoming home, the myriads of prodigals, ...wiping away the tears of their GOD GIVEN, (Rom 2:4) repentent sorrow, from their eyes, all to the JOY of those witnessing,  ...the kings which actually KNEW Him, and HE THEM, while in THIS LIFE, ...the LAKE of FIRE... to the EVERLASTING  GLORY of the KING of kings, ...JESUS CHRIST...

Hope that answers your question brother P...  :cloud9:

PeacE...    

...willieH  :icon_king:

Quote from: NThis is part of my recent difficulty [this year] with afterlife punishments.  While we're walking by faith and not by sight, we're not judged with the world.  That's 100% true, and how I'm taking 1Corinthians 11.  Looking at Willie's argument for a second, if there were a separation between us and the Lake of Fire, then it would be because we were judging ourselves, according to 1Corinthians 11 so that we're not judged with the world.  For me, right now, both views on this thread seem like an over-simplification in some ways.  St. Paul teaches that we reign now, and that the world abides under God's wrath now.  John's Gospel brings up the fact that the world is presently under wrath as well in the 3rd chapter, with the implication that we come out of wrath into salvation.

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 04:19:57 AM
willieH: Hi brother Paul   :dsunny:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 21, 2008, 03:52:53 AM
Hi Willie,

Just for clarification,  do you believe this physical life, from birth to physical death is the lake of fire or only part of it?   Does this extend after this physical life or is it over when we die on this earth?

I believe THIS LIFE alone, is the LAKE of FIRE... and that the only thing which remains for anyone, is to be raised CLOTHED in CHRIST finding the RICHES (Rom 2:4 / Rev 3:18) in that "clothing"... OR... to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

Either way, there is no TORMENTING FIRE which shall burn anyone... rather, the PASSIONATE, FORGIVING and TENDER LOVE of GOD... welcoming home, the myriads of prodigals, ...wiping away the tears of their GOD GIVEN, (Rom 2:4) repentent sorrow, from their eyes, all to the JOY of those witnessing,  ...the kings which actually KNEW Him, and HE THEM, while in THIS LIFE, ...the LAKE of FIRE... to the EVERLASTING  GLORY of the KING of kings, ...JESUS CHRIST...

Hope that answers your question brother P...  :cloud9:

PeacE...    

...willieH  :icon_king:

QuoteWhat spiritual purpose can this lake of fire serve if it is happening while we are still in physical bodies?

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 04:19:57 AM
...to be raised in the SHAME of CHRIST-LESS misrepresentation of Him, or purposed disregard and ignorance of Him...

QuoteIf someone actually would have a civil conversation and actually extrapolate each instance of dissension for agreement and understanding, we may actually get somewhere with the discussion. I cannot explain what I know, because I am so aware of what it is I know I don't know where a person needs to start in order for me to explain. Though, some will think this is pride, that I am not willing to learn from them, this is quite the opposite, I learn much from them despite our disagreements there are some profound things people have learned that I did not know and I do openly accept them.

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 04:58:24 AM

QuoteIf someone actually would have a civil conversation and actually extrapolate each instance of dissension for agreement and understanding, we may actually get somewhere with the discussion. I cannot explain what I know, because I am so aware of what it is I know I don't know where a person needs to start in order for me to explain. Though, some will think this is pride, that I am not willing to learn from them, this is quite the opposite, I learn much from them despite our disagreements there are some profound things people have learned that I did not know and I do openly accept them.

Craig Bro,,Tis a discussion, Like willie has done and presented by word of scripture ,his Views ..Please Bro ,do the same...

if By presenting , then as paul has done to Willie ,asking questions..then Bro, others can do likewise with what you propose..tis an OPEN court,.... :icon_flower:

Quote from: laren on August 21, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
This imo, is the lake of fire:


Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 21, 2008, 04:29:40 AM

I think that gets me a better idea of where you are coming from.   I have  more questions about this lake of fire from your perspective.  

What spiritual purpose can this lake of fire serve if it is happening while we are still in physical bodies?

QuoteAnd what is actually happening to us in the perspective of knowing there are believers and non believers both.

QuoteIs it possible for anyone to avoid the lake of fire and how so?

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 05:02:41 AM
I do many times, most of what WillieH brings up is not relevant to the Lake of Fire.

QuoteHe doesn't want to learn, he wants to 'teach'. So he won't answer any questions I have for him, nor will he agree on any statements I make that are correct.

QuoteIt is how he stays in control, and I don't play that game anymore. If he wants to have a discussion, he needs to stop with the many questions fallacy and discuss each point as they come up.

QuoteOtherwise, I am having discussion with Martin, Paul and yourself, and totally ignoring what Willie has to say because most of it means nothing to the discussion.

Quoteas if asking many questions is a FALLACY...

QuoteYou are the one not answering questions... 

Quoteam quite content not to discuss with you......for you only know how to talk,

Quote from: SOTWI knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 07:46:19 AM

Quote from: SOTWI knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Me, too.  But I have friends who are only starting to know him recently, well into adulthood.

So, are you saying that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus?

And, those who do know Jesus are judged in this life? (which is more a case of being guided?)

Then,what happens to both groups after death?

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

Quote from: laren on August 21, 2008, 05:00:29 AM
This imo, is the lake of fire:


Jer 23:39  Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Quote from: SOTWMolly, I have addressed the rootword fallacy concerning lake. It is a lake, not a safe harbor. However, you make a good point. If God is the Lake of Fire, why was it not called the Ocean of Fire or the Sea of Fire, because that would represent God better than a lake.

Quote from: SOtW on August 21, 2008, 07:50:42 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 07:46:19 AM

Quote from: SOTWI knew Jesus from the day I could comprehend that I was alive,

Me, too.  But I have friends who are only starting to know him recently, well into adulthood.

So, are you saying that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus?

And, those who do know Jesus are judged in this life? (which is more a case of being guided?)

Then,what happens to both groups after death?

Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

I am not saying that at all. That is what WillieH is claiming by saying that we are in the Lake of Fire now. Notice how I am accused of not answering questions, yet always address and answer them when I can; but when I present questions and dilemma's WillieH does not address or answer them. Ask WillieH if he believes that the wrath of God is the default position for those who don't know Jesus.

Molly, I have addressed the rootword fallacy concerning lake. It is a lake, not a safe harbor. However, you make a good point. If God is the Lake of Fire, why was it not called the Ocean of Fire or the Sea of Fire, because that would represent God better than a lake.

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 07:46:19 AM
Why is it a lake?  I'm sure you've noticed the Greek word--limne--meaning 'by nearness to shore', from the root word meaning 'safe harbor.'

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 07:54:30 AM
...why a lake?  It also means 'pond.'  A small body of water.  Lakes are/can be cozy, compared to a huge body of water like the ocean.  Could it be something --personal?

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 08:24:39 AM
Craig--...maybe you and Willie are both right?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 21, 2008, 08:29:47 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 08:24:39 AM
Craig--...maybe you and Willie are both right?

:omg: I sincerely hope you don't get clobbered by both of them for that statement :rolllol: :mrflo:

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 01:20:14 AM
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:
Sorry that my post was not clear to you... I did not mean to go over anyone's head... guess I could've simplified... sorry...  :mblush:

Quote from:  LARENHI bRO

Where/what  I personally struggle with, is today are we still having two sets of "people", one's hardened, and ones shown mercy just as in the New testament times,

or is it all fulfilled, and the working out of the NEW in us can be viewed as a "wheat/tares" in us, with one part being burned, and one part Living (which would be along the lines of Taffy, Willie, and Pneuma).

or are there many many layers that scripture can be interpreted and all "right".

Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 03:50:41 PM



you sort to see outwardly but also applied inwardly...,
Luk 17:35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left

2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Cr 4:7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Rom 14:9  For to this end Christ both ((died, and rose)), and ((revived)), that he might be Lord BOTH of the **dead** and **living**.

T..

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2008, 05:20:39 PM
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Is this the tree of life?

Quote from: willieH on August 21, 2008, 11:35:43 PMThe proposal of VENGENCE beyond this life, be it...

Quoteis simply proposing that GOD in fact, resorts to the "EYE for EYE" brand of "justice" that is in the Natural... which CHRIST plainly taught as REMOVED by GRACE...

QuoteANY proposals of teaching that we offer along with the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel and Reconciliation of ALL, must ALIGN with that GOOD NEWS... If not, the HOUSE is found DIVIDED...  and the message if scrutinized, is seen to be TWO FACED, and HYPOCRITICAL...

Quote2 Cor 5:19   The TRESPASSES are yet HELD against those of the WORLD...

QuoteRom 5:18-20  The JUSTIFICATION is seen as CONDITIONAL and dependent upon OBEDIENCE, not upon GRACE...

QuoteJohn 1:29  The SIN in fact was NOT "taken away" for it remains a PUNISHABLE obligation...

QuoteActs 10:34  God IS shown to be a RESPECTER of PERSONS, for OVERCOMING and being IN CHRIST, is not dependent upon our efforts at all...

QuoteSo any left OUTSIDE CHRIST to be further PUNISHED, are found, DIS-RESPECTED by comparison, ...concerning the GRACE which relieves Christians from "punishment" for sin...

QuoteDIVINE [SPIRITUAL/Grace] JUSTICE which is GRACE... for the LAW which REQUIRED and "EYE for and EYE", had been FULFILLED by Him for ALL:

Quote(Luke 6:26) LOVE your enemies... BLESS them that CURSE you...

And this which states MERCY:

(Luke 6:32-36 / )  What "thank" have ye? ...be MERCIFUL as YOUR FATHER is MERCIFUL -- How is FATHER MERCIFUL? By LOVING the UNLOVEABLE, Forgiving the UNFORGIVEABLE... etc...

And this which states such, ...is PERFECTION:

(Matt 5:44-48) Be PEFECT as your FATHER is PERFECT... How?  By LOVING your enemies, BLESSING the ones that CURSE you... etc.

And this in which He pled to YHVH GOD on ALL of our behalfs:

(Luke 23:34)  Father FORGIVE them, for they KNOW NOT what they DO...

QuoteFurthermore... DIVINE JUDGMENT is not about doling out PUNISHMENT, as CRAIG (sotw) falsely teaches... it is about TEACHING RIGHTEOUSNESS:

Quote from: bobf on August 22, 2008, 12:49:46 AM
Craig,

My view is tentative and has been for some time.

I believe the LOF is a symbol for wrath & judgment of God.  Second death is death and hades being cast into in the LOF and therefore pictures the destruction of death and hades power over the wicked.  The purpose is slaying of the old man.

I don't know if reaping wrath & judgment now can be rightly referred to by 'LOF' and 'second death', but my tentative belief is that whether it can be referred to by those words or not, judgment now has the same quality and purpose as LOF and second death.  It's bad stuff intended to destroy stuff in man's will.  It's the removal of 'stony heart'.  It's Nebuchadnezzars 'abased pride' in Dan ch 4.  And I suspect that when Christ told the Zebedee bros. they would drink His cup, it was again the same.

Q1. How can it be said that those who are raised in Christ that the second death has no power over them.
A1. Because it doesn't.  Those who are in Christ have lost their life, given up their life for Christ.  There is no life to lose and nothing to judge and nothing to reap.  But they will have their faith tried in fire, but not of the 'snare' sort.  My own sub-Q to my own answer would be: What about when those who have risen in Christ fall back to the point where they must reap some more?  Do they re-enter the LOF or it's equivalent??  Well, I certainly think they will re-enter judgment, by whatever name you call it.  Ezekiel 18 comes to mind.

Q2. What happens to those who don't repent in this life?  When do they reap what they sow.
A2. They will be raised in the 2nd resurrection to be judged in the LOF and die the second death.  That's when they reap.  So you could say that I believe that only God's elect enter the LOF or it's equivalent now.

Q3. Craig would be an exception.
A3. It's kind of hard to address someone's personal experience.  Knowing Jesus and following Jesus are two different things.  I can know Jesus, know true doctrine, know His nature, know what He want's from me, and still not follow Him.  That's actually worse than not knowing!  Many stripes.  No one is an exception to 'there is none good, none seeking God' therefore I believe that all have or will incur the wrath of God.

Q4. Aborted babies
A4. Didn't go through LOF in this life.  Judged in the second resurrection.

Quote from: SOtW on August 22, 2008, 02:47:08 AMNow remove the presumption that LOF is this life, re-answer the question with what it the possibility.

QuoteIf I said that 'LOF' is only for afterlife, while 'judgment and wrath' are for this life, I'd be left with two 'things' that are markedly similar going by different names.  Those who enter / exit X in this life is called judgment & wrath, but those who enter / exit X in afterlife is called LOF & second death.

Quote from: SOtW on August 22, 2008, 03:43:48 AM
The reason I asked you to answer with a different possibility is because of your sub-question in Q1 and the especially the answer in Q4, do not support your conclusion and make your conclusion redundant.

QuoteSimilarity does not mean they are the same, that is a Undistributed Middle, and Hasty Generalization.  Three things markedly similar but different.

Quote from: bobf on August 22, 2008, 04:03:35 AM

Quote from: SOtW on August 22, 2008, 03:43:48 AM
The reason I asked you to answer with a different possibility is because of your sub-question in Q1 and the especially the answer in Q4, do not support your conclusion and make your conclusion redundant.

I don't see how they contradict my conclusion either.  I don't see any problem with Q4.  I don't think aborted babies went into LOF in this life, nor do I think they entered God's wrath & judgment in this life.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying what Willie is saying, that this life IS the LOF.  I'm saying that the LOF & second death is (or may be) a symbol of God's wrath and judgment which can occur in this life or in the next life.

QuoteSimilarity does not mean they are the same, that is a Undistributed Middle, and Hasty Generalization.  Three things markedly similar but different.

Yes, but things that are different have a difference you can point to.  I know of no such difference.  I'm pretty sure Leviticus 26 is an example of 'judgment of God' and 'wrath of God' even though the chapter does not actually use those terms.  Would I be making a hasty generalization to refer to it by those words?  At some point, when things look the same in all known essentials, one starts to wonder if they are the same.

QuoteYou can have fiery trials now--
or you can get immersed later--

QuoteThey don't have any difference you can point to, unless you know the details. The more you know about it, the more you are able to see the difference.

QuoteA child being disciplined to not do wrong, looks also like a child who is being punished for doing wrong.

Quote from: bobf on August 22, 2008, 08:05:07 AM
So you think judgment is discipline while the LOF is punishment?  What is the difference between punishment and discipline?  Both are painful, though probably to different degrees.  Discipline's purpose is to correct.  That seems to leave the punishment / LOF in the category of non-corrective inflicting of pain or pure torment.

Quote from: bobf on August 22, 2008, 08:05:07 AM

QuoteThey don't have any difference you can point to, unless you know the details. The more you know about it, the more you are able to see the difference.

Discipline's purpose is to correct.  That seems to leave the punishment / LOF in the category of non-corrective inflicting of pain or pure torment.
I can think of one scripture that seems to support a difference.
1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Quote from: NathanRevelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb

Quotewhat if this tribulation is the same as the lake of fire . . .I mean, what if it's the same place?

Quote from: martincisneros on August 22, 2008, 08:29:48 AM1Corinthians 11:32 is actually in the context of judging yourself.  That's the understood subject.  When we judge ourselves, we open the door to a type of God's anointing that'll train the flesh to discern the difference between good and evil, according to Hebrews 5:12-14.

QuoteKJV renders a passage in Hebrews 10 "how much sorer punishment do you suppose will he be thought worthy who has trodden underfoot the Blood of the Son of God..." and the word "punishment" in that passage is essentially the same word, though spelled a little differently and gramatically used differently without implying a change in meaning (i.e. sentence construction issue), to a word translated twice in Acts as "persecution."  Hebrews 10 is just saying that you lose your protection from the Lord and are open to the persecutions of this world, of the religious, and of the devil.  But I know that the issues of retribution and other types of punishment don't hang on that one passage.

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 03:32:14 AM
Again, if this life is the Lake of Fire.
The question remains, what happens to the wicked who die in their sin, who do not repent or change heart prior to their death.

Quote from: SOtW on August 22, 2008, 04:52:54 PMBob, I am puzzled why why you are resorting to an ET mindset with concerning punishment. As I said, the LOF is far more complex than a simple answer. So remove the idea that it is non-corrective, and that it is purposely inflicting pain and torment.

QuoteA child being punished for doing wrong, is still corrective but a different method of discipline is being employed and it isn't there to just inflict pain and torture, in fact the pain and torture is subjective.  Here is the difference on a small scale, one is preventive discipline, the other is corrective punishment. Preventive discipline educates a person correcting their mindset. Corrective punishment is when they do wrong, correcting their actions.

QuoteEach person is treated independently of each other, God knows the heart of everyone and will judge each person accordingly, what works for one person will not work for another, this is not a general sweep.

QuoteThe Lake of Fire is a directly effective and efficient correction which is not unnecessary in nature if one is subject to it, but is the Lake of Fire is not necessary for those who have endured and overcome the trials and tribulations of life.

QuoteDid Jesus just stay in Jerusalem? Did he not go to the Samaritan and give her living water? Did he not go to the leper and he heal the sick? Those who are outside cannot come in until they are declared clean!

Now let us read Revelation 21-22 in context....

Do you believe what Scripture is saying? It says that those on the outside will be brought back in. Nothing unclean will ever enter the city because they will be made clean! We are not secluded to the city, we go out and heal the nations outside the walls (the Lake of Fire) with the leaves from the tree of life. The river of life flows out from the city, the river is not dammed! The doors are always open!

QuoteThe people described in Revelation 22, are not the same people of Revelation 7.

QuoteThose in Revelation 7 were never subjected to the Lake of Fire, but the people in Revelation 22 ere are those who were in the Lake of Fire and have been brought into the Kingdom.

QuoteWhatever happens in the Resurrection of the Dead, those who have kept themselves pure by the washing of the blood of Christ, will reign with God to heal those who did not. The wicked who died in their wickedness, the sinner who died in their sin, will be raised to life outside the City of God and there they will remain until they are healed.

QuoteSo quick recap, this life is not Second Death, this life is the Tribulation. There is two types of people who come out of the Tribulation those who were raised first and those who were raised last. Those who raised first were not subjected to the Lake of Fire and those who are raised last are in the Lake of Fire. The first shall serve the last. As those who reign with Christ in the first resurrection of the dead shall go out into the Lake of Fire and it will not hurt them, as they bring the Water of Life and the leaves to heal to those who are in the Lake of Fire. From there, they give life and heal them, and bring them into the Kingdom of God. The Lake of Fire literally is the Second Death that these people come out of.

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 03:32:14 AMThat is what saying this life is the Lake of Fire constitutes.

Quote from: bobf on August 23, 2008, 06:39:37 AM

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 03:32:14 AMThat is what saying this life is the Lake of Fire constitutes.

I hope you didn't think that's what I was trying to say.

Quote from: Nathan
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
This is, to me, pointing to the fact that our memory of pain will be transformed as well.  Our memory of the curse, sin, death . . our time here on earth is all included into that.

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 07:43:12 AM
If you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Quote from: SotwIf you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:20:59 AM

Quote from: SotwIf you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Craig, that whole post was beautiful.  You are describing the Melchizedek priesthood.  Well, you might not agree with me lol.  But, to me, that's what it is.

That priesthood, too, will be refined and purified as silver [by fire]--I'm thinking in this life--so that they will stand when he appears.




2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 07:43:12 AMMatthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Does everyone take the wide gate and broad road that leads to destruction? No. Few will find the gate and narrow road that leads to life. Those who take the gate to life, do not experience destruction. Do people believe that, or is that just something Jesus said to pass the time?

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:37:15 AM
Main Entry: re·fine
Function: verb
Pronunciation: ri-'fīn
Inflected Form(s): re·fined ; re·fin·ing
transitive senses
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : ELEVATE
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive senses
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
- re·fin·er noun


A priest is an appointed function that acts as a mediator between man and God.

But there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

This is why many of the current [unrefined] priesthood present themselves as Christ.

But only the Melchizedek priesthood could be this, a priesthood made by oath of God, eternal, a priest forever, the right hand of God.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:37:52 AM
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:37:15 AM
Main Entry: re·fine
Function: verb
Pronunciation: ri-'fīn
Inflected Form(s): re·fined ; re·fin·ing
transitive senses
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : ELEVATE
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive senses
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
- re·fin·er noun


A priest is an appointed function that acts as a mediator between man and God.

But there is only one mediator between man and God, the man Jesus Christ.

This is why many of the current [unrefined] priesthood present themselves as Christ.

But only the Melchizedek priesthood could be this, a priesthood made by oath of God, eternal, a priest forever, the right hand of God.


Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:45:48 AM
Yes, --

That is why he is perfecting us to be a living sacrifice wholly acceptable to God.

That is why we are translated to eternal as soon as we believe.

Maybe one could say we are priests in training...

I consider Moses a Melchizedek priest, as well as Joshua and the prophets.

We are becoming Benjamin, son of the right hand.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:51:59 AM
so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:54:49 AM

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:51:59 AM
so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Well, Craig doesn't want to call it the lake of fire--he is saying these priests will be the lake of fire I think.

But, someone earlier called it fiery trials--the trying of our faith--that is part of the refining process--like what someone called a spiritual stairmaster.  It is a type of fire, for sure.  James tells us to count it all joy when we experience this.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:37:52 AM
Hi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

QuoteJohn 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Quote from: bobf on August 23, 2008, 09:00:31 AM

QuoteJohn 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

That takes place when the redeemed of the Lord turn to the Lord with all their heart.  God circumcises their heart, God fashions them as His workmanship and ordains them to good works.  They enter the narrow gate that leads to life, and they never die.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 09:06:04 AM
Hi again bob

you have me thinking about you earlier post:  are you basically saying, all go through the wide gait to destruction (LOF), and then some from their build there house on the rock and receive reward, and some refuse, and go through LOF again?

as in two LOF's??

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 12:09:07 PM
THE WIDE GATE:

Psalm 9:13
Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:

14That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.



John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.




THE NARROW GATE:


24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

--Gen 3


Ezekiel 43:4
And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.


2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.



Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



John 10:2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.



John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.



John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.



"door"

G2374
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare "door"); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

QuoteHi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Quoteand what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Quote from: pneuma on August 23, 2008, 04:31:19 PM

QuoteHi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

Quoteand what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

QuoteYes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

Quote from: pneuma on August 23, 2008, 04:31:19 PM

QuoteHi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

Quoteand what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 04:51:56 PM

QuoteYes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

:thumbsup:

Its the Death of what causes Death ( M.O.D), and all those under IT,Through Death LIFE LIVES.

Each will HAVE THEIR""""""""""""PART""""""""""""""""""in the Lake, this part being the Flesh ...either way ALL Flesh( the carnality of Man) dies......

T

Quote from: LaurenHere's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 05:44:23 PM

Quote from: LaurenHere's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

It's for growing faith to perfection--



1From James, a servant of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ.
   Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered all over the world.

2My friends, be glad, even if you have a lot of trouble. 3You know that you learn to endure by having your faith tested. 4But you must learn to endure everything, so that you will be completely mature and not lacking in anything.

--James 1

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 05:31:41 PM
Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?



I think what some here are saying, is that to come to faith, is through fire; and that fire is the lake of fire/second death.   

Quote from: Nathan on August 23, 2008, 06:00:19 PM
. . .instead of seeing "people" going through the wide gate, it's my vain thoughts, my carnality, my fleshly nature that goes through the wide gate . . .and my spirit is what's called into the narrow gate . .but it's easier to cater to the flesh than take captive those thoughts by the Spirit.

Making any sense?

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 06:06:43 PM


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

Quote from: NathanIt's not what your mind understands . .it's what your spirit sees.  Walk in the spirit, it doesn't know how to read, it only hears the voice and sees the sound.  There is a sound beneath the passages we quote that only the spirit can hear . . .you see it all around you in the natural . .there are so many sounds your natural ears can't hear . . .even dogs can hear sounds we can't here . . .that should be humbling in and of itself.

Even Balaam's donkey could see things this great prophet riding him couldn't see . . .we can't trust what our eyes tell us, we need to let go of that stuff and listen for the sound of what Scripture is saying . . .it's beneath the noise of doctrine.

Making any sense?

Quote from: LaurenThe old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 06:30:36 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 06:06:43 PM


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

But, I don't think that was what Paul, John, Peter etc. were saying.  They imo, were seeing a destruction coming upon those in the flesh (those who were not willing to repent).  Paul was imo, was referring to those under law, stuck in the old mindest as "the flesh". 

Where I disagree with you is that you still see the old covenant as in place, using this verse

Joh 2:10  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I don't believe the "now" in that verse is the same as "now" today.  The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Hope I make sense Graham.


blessings friend

Laren

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:25:57 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:20:59 AM

Quote from: SotwIf you are fearful, you not recognize that the raging fire that consumes the enemies of God, are those who trust in the Lord and are raised up as the royal priesthood reigning with the Son of God. The first shall serve the last. Those who lost everything will be saved but as ones through fire.

Craig, that whole post was beautiful.  You are describing the Melchizedek priesthood.  Well, you might not agree with me lol.  But, to me, that's what it is.

That priesthood, too, will be refined and purified as silver [by fire]--I'm thinking in this life--so that they will stand when he appears.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

--Malachi 3

but there is a difference is there not between refiners fire, and destructive fire??

I believe there is.

I also think it would be intresting to study what a "priest/priesthood" does.  What is their function? 

refiner's fire, imo; is by grace through Faith

and destructive fire is based on "not believing", and having to perish.

whoseover believes on him shall not perish (go through LOF imo)

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 08:54:49 AM

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 08:51:59 AM
so do you see this training/becoming priests as the lake of fire??

Well, Craig doesn't want to call it the lake of fire--he is saying these priests will be the lake of fire I think, or at least be part of it.

But, someone earlier called it fiery trials--the trying of our faith--that is part of the refining process--like what someone called a spiritual stairmaster.  It is a type of fire, for sure.  James tells us to count it all joy when we experience this.

Quoteone leaves one clothed, not ashamed

Quoteone leaves one naked/shamed

Quotebut there is a difference is there not between refiners fire, and destructive fire??

I believe there is.

I also think it would be intresting to study what a "priest/priesthood" does.  What is their function?  

refiner's fire, imo; is by grace through Faith

and destructive fire is based on "not believing", and having to perish.

whoseover believes on him shall not perish (go through LOF imo)

QuoteRight Laren. That is how Scripture describes it.  

Quote from: craigWhether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2008, 07:07:10 PM
So--

The refiner's fire versus the lake of fire looks like this?

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 07:06:57 PM

Quote from: craigWhether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

I totally agree ,I was raised on the silver being REFINED,..the dross removed...,its a fact that the refiner knows exactly the right time its purified, because apparently ,HE SEES his OWN reflection while looking into it..( face to Face)....REFINED.

But what is Refined and what Is Destroyed Craig?

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 07:38:13 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 07:06:57 PM

Quote from: craigWhether the fire is from the same source does not matter, one purifies through faith and the other purifies through destruction.

I totally agree ,I was raised on the silver being REFINED,..the dross removed...,its a fact that the refiner knows exactly the right time its purified, because apparently ,HE SEES his OWN reflection while looking into it..( face to Face)....REFINED.

But what is Refined and what Is Destroyed Craig?

You keep thinking the dross is what goes into the Lake of Fire versus the silver which is being refined. That is not at all how it is. Whether the silver is being refined and the dross removed, is still part of the Refining Fire and at no time is part of the Lake of Fire.

Jeremiah 6:27-30
"I have made you a tester of metals and my people the ore, that you may observe and test their ways.
They are all hardened rebels, going about to slander. They are bronze and iron; they all act corruptly.
The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.
They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Not everyone is refined like silver, because they made of iron and bronze.

Isaiah 48:8-11
You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.
For my own name's sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off.
See, I have refined you, though not as silver;  I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another.

Once again, those who are treacherous and rebellious go through not Refining Fire, but a Furnace of Affliction...aka the Lake of Fire. Why? Because God cannot be defamed and He will not yield His glory to another.

So the question is, what makes you silver and what makes you iron and bronze?

Quote from: Taffyso maybe the question is...what Does His Blood purfify us of....well thats Sin isnt It?...so what SINS?...THE SPIRIT?

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 06:49:11 PM

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 06:30:36 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 06:06:43 PM


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:


Mat 3:12  Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ( is that not our FLESH)

But, I don't think that was what Paul, John, Peter etc. were saying.  They imo, were seeing a destruction coming upon those in the flesh (those who were not willing to repent).  Paul was imo, was referring to those under law, stuck in the old mindest as "the flesh". 

Where I disagree with you is that you still see the old covenant as in place, using this verse

Joh 2:10  And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

I don't believe the "now" in that verse is the same as "now" today.  The old covenant world was destroyed imo during the first century.  God made it known to "His people" that he was no longer in covenant with man via law, but now the world was reconciled through Jesus. 


But if we "now" continue to have a false/ignorant "mindset" of being under law; the inward/spiritual application is very much along the lines of what you have outlined.

Hope I make sense Graham.


blessings friend

Laren

I agree ont he first paragraph Laren, I think we touch on this a few weeks back , the the literal Destruction of the Temple 70AD etc...and I agree, but still shows a spirtual Understanding.


Im Not sure what ya mean By" I see the Old C still In Place"?...Both are to be Kept Laren as mentioned in an earlier post, where the two wines are presereved,, BUT LIFE is Truly found ONLY in the NEW,.CHRIST OUR VICTORY AND VICTORY FOR all in their appointed time....but ya cant be In both at the SAME TIME.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I Must admit bro, im not 100% sure what ya getting at...

I see the law very much for those Under the LAW , that God finds Them Guilty...which is everyone bar those in HIM,..

be now , then and to come....

again Im not sure what you think we are disagreeing on bro... :dontknow:

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 05:20:23 PM

Quote from: pneuma on August 23, 2008, 04:31:19 PM

QuoteHi bob,

do you see Jesus as having gone through the lake of fire wide gait first??

Hi laren, I know you asked Bob this , but I hope you don't mind if I answer it also.

Yes Jesus went through the lake of fire /2nd death but it had no power over Him and He was not hurt by it. But it may well be some will disagree with this, but if one sees the 2nd death as the law all these things fall into place. When one walks in the spirit as Jesus did the law has no power over them and cannot hurt them, but when one falls from grace the law has power to hurt, but it a power that leads one back to Christ. There is only one fire and it both refines and destroys, it a double edged sword. Walk in the spirit and you are refined, walk in the flesh and it destroys.

Quoteand what do you think of this verse?

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can you show me where in the lake of fire/2nd death it says people die?

For when I read about the lake of fire, those in it are alive and suffer torment.

Hi Scott again,

I just reread your post, and I really like the way you worded that.  I think after all these years of listening and participating in these second death/lof discussions; I all along misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying "all" need to be hurt by the LOF in order to be purified.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.   

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

but for those walking by the spirit, perfect love casts out all fear. 

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

"never die", to me; speaks of "never falling from grace" and experiencing being left unclothed in our shame.  We are clothed with His rightesouness.

Quote.will not enter into it because the cross has already done what the lake of fire does.

QuoteJesus IS the lake of fire!

QuoteDont put words in my Mouth Craig when Im Asking questions ...ill thanks you for that.

Quoteso maybe the question is...what Does His Blood purfify us of....well thats Sin isnt It?...so what SINS?...THE SPIRIT?

QuoteTHE old is no longer in effect.  The types and figues (temple, sacrifices, etc) were done away with.  God is no longer in old covenant with man.  it is finished.  The end of the age which vanished away imo.


So now,

if one still lives as under old covenant, it has no authority.  It imo, is done.  Man is living under a covenant that no longer exists. 

so i dont' see old and new preserved till now (meaning today) as it was done away with, vanished.

QuoteNow go back and read everything I had presented previously, to receive more answers to your questions.

Quote from: NathanJesus IS the lake of fire!

Quote from: pneuma on August 23, 2008, 08:36:35 PM

Quote.will not enter into it because the cross has already done what the lake of fire does.

Hi Nathan, I agree that the lake of fire does the same thing the cross does, thus the lake of fire is the cross. But what is the cross, it is not some stake Jesus was nailed to, the cross is the law, when the law manifests itself it shows itself as a double edged sword, it is ordained unto LIFE but is also a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ.

There is only one way God has designed for man to come unto Him by purification and that way is by the cross which is the law. The law is spiritual an if man fulfills the law death has no power over them, but when man falls from grace they walk again under the law and are thus hurt of it.

QuoteJesus IS the lake of fire!

Again I agree, because Jesus is the word/logos/debar, and the word/logos/debar are every commandment that comes from the mouth of God..

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 08:54:38 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 08:49:50 PM

QuoteNow go back and read everything I had presented previously, to receive more answers to your questions.

No thanks...for we are POLES APART.....

Craig ...the dross removed is the FLESH of all men....tis purified by the the Blood(silver) of Christ..i ya think silver is all mankind bro..well..i cant say anything more,...

whats also burnt in the LOF, is also the Flesh Craig....that to is purified......so all whats Left is us in HIM and mim In us....SPIRIT.


Forgive me Bro..im not going around the world with you to Cross the road....believe as you will
Peace

Since you refuse to go back and read through what I presented, you demonstrate you don't want to know the answers to your questions. Also, since you have no Scriptural support for your belief, you have not refuted anything either Laren or I have presented, you remain stubbornly in a believe not based on knowledge but on your own understanding. It is not difficult to notice this. You purposely oppose things you do not understand based on your own understanding since you have not taken either the time to demonstrate your understanding, nor have you been fair in this discussion.

QuoteThat is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

QuoteOk Taffy,

I got a few minutes.

the old covenant imo,is an agreement between God and man. God made the agreement.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

QuoteThe old was ready to vanish away. And it did imo; when Israel was judged.

QuoteThe old is no longer in effect.

QuoteThe types and figues (temple, sacrifices, etc) were done away with. God is no longer in old covenant with man. it is finished. The end of the age which vanished away imo.

QuoteSo now,

if one still lives as under old covenant, it has no authority. It imo, is done. Man is living under a covenant that no longer exists.

so i dont' see old and new preserved till now (meaning today) as it was done away with, vanished.

Quote from: laren on August 23, 2008, 05:31:41 PM
Here's a question to anyone,

is there anywhere in the bible that talks of coming to a point of having our ears opened, or coming to "believing" or coming to "faith in/of Christ" is by fire?

I think what some here are saying, is that to come to faith, is through fire; and that fire is the lake of fire/second death.

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 09:04:31 PM

QuoteThat is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

So what ya saying is Craigs FLESH no longer lives and has BEEN purified by the FIRE,,,,but the dross being tin brass etc..is not flesh?

QuoteAs demonstrated before, whether I give Scripture or not, neither WillieH, Pneuma or yourself will find every excuse to not take what I said and refute it. You still have not done so.

Quote from: SOtW on August 23, 2008, 09:19:00 PM

Quote from: Taffy on August 23, 2008, 09:04:31 PM

QuoteThat is not what Scripture says. The Silver does not purify the dross. The carnal nature of Craig has already been purified by the fire of Christ, not the Lake of Fire

So what ya saying is Craigs FLESH no longer lives and has BEEN purified by the FIRE,,,,but the dross being tin brass etc..is not flesh?

I explained this to you already, you are not seeing the details of the bigger picture. You are making generalities and not seeing how they correlate with each other. You are making hasty generalizations and concluding that similarities are not similarities but the same thing. Imagine if you were before the courts and you were accused of murder alongside a real murderer because you lived in the same building, you took the same bus, you knew the same people, and both put your garbage in the same trash can. Would you say that similarity has now made you the murderer? Why would apply this same logic to the things of God?

It is talking about all mankind, those who trust in the Lord and those who do not.  The Silver Ore, is the speaking of all mankind. Just like the wheat and the tares planted in a field, is speaking of all mankind. Those who trust in the Lord, the sons of the Kingdom are separated from those who did not trust in the Lord, sons of the enemy. Only the dross and the tares face the furnace of fire.

Now something similar happens with the individual, who now trusts in the Lord. They go through a process very similar but not the same. If you want to talk about the believer he is composed of two parts, the wheat and the chaff. The chaff is the stalk of the wheat and that is not separated through the furnace, that is separated by the threshing floor. The wheat is separated from the chaff prior to the chaff ever being thrown into the furnace of fire. After silver has been put into the fire and separated from the dross, it is then pounded out with a hammer to remove any further impurity within the silver itself. The silver never faces the furnace of fire.

Quote from: pneuma on August 23, 2008, 09:19:28 PM

QuoteAs demonstrated before, whether I give Scripture or not, neither WillieH, Pneuma or yourself will find every excuse to not take what I said and refute it. You still have not done so.

What! how the heck did I get dragged into your debate with Willie and Taffy?

All I have done so far is post what I see, I have not debated anyone, so please leave me out of it.

Quote
Not sure I grasped this the first time I read it, had to reread it a couple times, and it still sounds mixed. The cross is the law? Perhaps, but Jesus brought an end to the law. No man could ever fulfill the law . . .that's why Jesus did. And now that he did, we don't have to try anymore, we simply believe in the one who already did. That's why I love even more this realm of rest . . .the work is already done and accounted for.

QuoteFor the record, it seems to be assumed I believe the lake of fire happens now . . .I do not.

QuoteI believe tribulation happens now . . .but the lake of fire, in it's context of all the two times mentioned in Scripture, is referring to a spiritual experience, which happens after spirit and body are separated. . not a physical one. I believe if you come to Christ, the lake of fire has already been acknowledged and dealt with.

QuoteI also believe the original purpose for Revelation was for "that" generation for the things happening "physically" to that nation, including the lake of fire. You do realize that Israel burned, literally, for over a year after the slaughter began didn't you? It was common to smell smoke and see dead bodies bloating in that day. Our minds have created this little religious, self-consciousness atmosphere within the comforts of our home that it's all about "us".

That in their suffering, seeing their family members taken out into the streets and slaughtered, their mother's and wives raped, the bodies stacked as high as a horse's bridal . . . it got so out of hand that those who came in to bring peace to the civil wars within the nation, ended up killing until noone was left, save those that ran to the hills to hide in caves. In the midst of that, a cry goes out that the last living disciple, the one that they "tried" to kill also, but could not, this last disciple had a revelation from God . . .and the message of this wonderful visitation is . . . .that 2000 years from now, Jesus is returning . . .we are a selfish, selfish people.

QuoteI believe "this" generation "should" be taking things differently than those to whom Scripture was originally written to in the first place. So much has happened between now and then . . .we look at the natural world and how advanced we've become as mankind since the days when Jesus walked the face of the earth. We have no problem seeing that in these last few hundred years man has come so far . . .yet when we open our Bibles . . . we want to remain where they were 2,000 years ago and at the same time, claim that what was actually meant for then, is yet to happen now. How messed up is that??!!

QuoteThe truth is, regardless of your take on the lake of fire . . .there is only "one" truth to it. If we walk in the spirit, we'll walk in the truth. My mind doesn't have to understand or control every little thing. The mind does play a role . . .but not at the introduction, or the conception of life. The woman had to be removed from the man in order for God's good to manifest. Once she was removed from within Adam, she was presented back to Adam from without. Once without, Adam then planted the seed within her . . .and life was birthed as a result.

You want life to be birthed from your Eve . .from your mind? The leave the separating spirit from soul up to God . .let his Word separate your Eve from your Adam . . not because Eve is bad, but because Adam can't reproduce if Eve is out of order.

QuoteWhew . . . that's fun when that stuff happens. Don't ask me to quote the Scripture that says what I just said . . . you won't find it . .all you'll find is the pattern of it.

QuoteAnyway, the question was asked about your spirit . . . I don't see man having a spirit . . .I see man having God's spirit.

QuoteThis is probably going to be another point of argument . . .but I don't believe Adam passed on his spirit nature . .it was dead, remember? Separated from God?? I believe Adam obviously passed on the nature of sin, but not spirit, but soul.

QuoteThe spirit in me is Gods . . .and . ..here we go . .the spirit in . . .Hitler was also God's . . .the difference is, one is dorment and the other is alive.

QuoteWhen I walk according to my soul, I've taken captive my spirit . .. when I walk according to spirit, I've taken captive my soul. This is the vague explanation.

QuoteBut to answer the question up front . . I believe the spirit in me doesn't have the capacity to sin, anymore than the soul . .the ego in me, has the capacity to achieve righteousness of it's own virtue.

Ecclesiastes 12
7Then shall the dust return to the earth  as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



It was never my spirit . .it's always been God's from the beginning. I am a spirit, but I was never mine . . .I've always been his. I was born into dormancy, but when I invited Christ in, spirit and soul reversed their place in me and the true me has been manifesting ever since. The veil has been removed that held my spirit captive. But if I didn't come to Christ, that veil would have remained through this life and into the next . .until . . .God would purify it, not to it's destruction, but to it's salvation back to him.

Note in this verse, there is no mention of eternal damnation. Just a returning back to one's genesis.