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23 Minutes in hell, a witness or no?

Started by arcticmonster2003, August 18, 2008, 08:53:31 AM

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WhiteWings

#100
December 09, 2008, 09:24:56 PM
QuoteOh and if he was not judged to be there he would not have been there, for as Lazaras could not cross the gulf how did he.

I've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

Quoteand you should know by now from reading my rebuttal to Matt Slick
Matt who? Matt ערוּם  `aruwm  :mrflo:


Quotethat I don't beleive heaven is anymore eternal the hell.
For BOTH are said to be created.
Both created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.
I'm not meaning hell is eternally in use but stays eternally.
But I'm just not sure about that. Neither am I sure Heaven is eternally.
By that I don't mean the promised afterlife will end but that it 'moves on'  to something even bigger after a while.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

pneuma

#101
December 10, 2008, 02:28:28 AM
QuoteI've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

:laughing7: well if he was not on fire he wasn't really in hell. Just remember bro I'm looking at this from an ET perspective, no one can get out of hell. But as he is said to have been there and Jesus was with him and carried him back out of hell, actually goes to prove Universalim. :happygrin:


QuoteBoth created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.

I guess you would have to define what heaven means to you. Most seem to think heaven is when Jesus set up His everlasting/eternal kingdom, but as I have sown plenty of times already aionion ALWAYS refers to a limited time period and that Christ give up His throne to the Father show that His reign has come to an end.

QuoteI'm not meaning hell is eternally in use but stays eternally.
But I'm just not sure about that. Neither am I sure Heaven is eternally.
By that I don't mean the promised afterlife will end but that it 'moves on'  to something even bigger after a while.

if I read you right I agree for Jesus came to give us more the eternal life he also came to give us immortal life which is even greater then eternal life as immortal life never comes to and end.

WhiteWings

#102
December 10, 2008, 08:19:39 AM
Quote from: pneuma on December 10, 2008, 02:28:28 AM
QuoteI've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

:laughing7: well if he was not on fire he wasn't really in hell. Just remember bro I'm looking at this from an ET perspective, no one can get out of hell. But as he is said to have been there and Jesus was with him and carried him back out of hell, actually goes to prove Universalim. :happygrin:
I think the book has  slight ET feeling to it  :laughing7:
If I'm not confusing it with another book hell wasn't described as a lake of fire. More like veggie garden with narrow pathways between the carrots and cannabis (the stuff used in the annoiting oil..)
All had diffrent punishments. And that 23 minute guy just walked on the path together with Jesus.
Jesus is an outdoor man so he likes to go out for a walk  :laughing7:


Quote
QuoteBoth created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.

I guess you would have to define what heaven means to you. Most seem to think heaven is when Jesus set up His everlasting/eternal kingdom, but as I have sown plenty of times already aionion ALWAYS refers to a limited time period and that Christ give up His throne to the Father show that His reign has come to an end.
No idea how heaven looks. But indeed Jesus kingdom isn't (the final) heaven.
I think after the reign of Jesus things become as before creation (but with humanity). Not sure heaven existed before that. Think not.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

reFORMer

#103
December 10, 2008, 08:57:04 AM Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 06:49:00 PM by reFORMer
Though at 23 I was very little developed, only a disciple of Jesus for around four years, The Good Shepherd came in the night with a large ring of keys and said, "It is time to go now."  After experiencing Cheyne-Stokes respiration, as small vapor in the vast cavernous temple of my body, I was drawn out of my body, but I was being drawn down so I fought as hard as I could.  Then I saw my body across the room from me.  It was kneeling with folded hands at the window looking up with light from heaven shining down on its eyes.  The Spirit of God was in it interceeding.  When I found myself back in my body I realized Who had come for me was the Lord and I had wanted very much to go with Him, so I turned and hit the gates of death which were now closed to me.  Much more concerning this experience as well as a number of others I believe have given me some insight into certain things.

The popular traditional view of heaven and hell is that they are the extreme opposite realms for humanity's abode in death.  The simplistic cartoon version has everybody going to one of them when their spirit leaves their body.  While Scripture indicates bliss and torment for human spirits whose physical aspect is in the grave, it doesn't give much detail.  It seems the Potter continues to develop his charges while the body is dead or humanity is a very sorry lot indeed, impossibly far from the promise of the Divine ideal.  Paradise is the term for the place of blessing, accessible to the living overcomer, and the various words translators have pasted the word hell over refer to their respective meanings.  Denied by some who think the spirit never sleeps (cf., Song of Songs 5:2,) the possibility exists that we may have periods of sleep in our disembodied state.  There is no reason that such words of Scripture as, "The dead know nothing" must be understood to mean there is no consciousness for spirit apart from the body.  It is clearly in agreement with the corpse of a man being unresponsive to whatever may be said or done to it.  That man knows nothing.  Yet his spirit, being elsewhere, may be not in a death state.  Scripture says, Even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead." (James 2:26)  One may have a conviction concerning a conscious belief that goes unexpressed, so we may have a consciousness as spirit apart from the body. 

The spirit may be considered a kind of body.  This is clear from those things said of the Spirit of God.  It has wrongly been called error by some councils to teach that as God has expressed Himself as Son, so also He has expressed Himself as Spirit.  What is unknowable as the Father in expression is called Christ.  Though the agent of that expression is the Spirit, the Spirit itself has self-consciousness.  It is true spiritual substance as the Son is actual physical substance.  So, the spirit itself is a kind of embodiment.  It is more durable than the entirety of our present physical realm.  That is why a spirit may go through a wall.  The wall is insubstantial to it.  Since all will be resurrected "in their own order," all will come out of any abode that might be in death.  "Death will be abolished" is God's sure word, an inconceivably grand proliferation of life toward which we all are hurtling where all realms will become opened to us.

The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture.  There are 3 heavens according to 2 Cor 12.  They correspond to the 3 dimensions in which we exist: spirit (at least when regenerated,where peculiarly God's presence is,) soul (the psychical realm,) and body (earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.)  Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.

God's purpose for us is not a better place in death but victory over death.  The phrase "go to heaven" never occurs in the Bible in relation to anything.  According to Jesus, heaven and earth will pass away, though His word will remain.  God's purpose is to bring forth the image and similitude of God in humanity.  Whether apparently successful or a failure by man's reckoning, whether in enjoyable surroundings subject to our own wills or in horrible conditions as a prisoner, our identity is not to be determined by our circumstances which we rise above.  A jewel in the garbage remains beautiful and precious.  A piece of junk displayed on blue velvet is still ugly and worthless.   God existed without any environment and His sanctifying work is creating a man whose nature is not determined by where he is but arises from within, from that union with the Divine nature as we partake of Him, being progressively conformed to Him in all things.  Where we are headed is into The Perfect Man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.  In the light from The Unveiling of this Image all things will be revealed.  This Perfect Man is the inheritor of all things.


your brother, James M. Rohde

At peace

#104
December 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 10:55:25 AM by At peace
Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace

rosered

#105
December 10, 2008, 01:24:05 PM
Quote from: At peace on December 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM
Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace
Wow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   :icon_flower:

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure  :thumbsup:
  but if you had read all the posts you would see  Taffy apologized to all , for getting angry ?  even Paul , Paul accepted ?
  Forgiveness is just as Important repentance  with Jesus Christ's salvation

  being a mod on this forum , is a tough job , I would never attempt , there are things behind the scenes that go on , most never even have a clue about
  and If you have ever  been a mod you would also have more understanding in  this area
  we all suffer and we all have anger issues and feelings get hurt all the time 
but without room for  loving  forgiveness  what is the point of  trying to follow Christ in the first place ?   
  God bless ...
Jesus is the reward  !!

Taffy

#106
December 10, 2008, 02:45:03 PM
Quote from: At peace on December 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM
Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace
Hi At Peace :icon_flower:
By all means your entitled to veiw the situation as it seemed , but in truth very little is.

If you  Have noticed ,I have made an Open apology to all ,who may have well taken my comments personally, that too includes you

What you may not realise my comment wasnt Directly aimed at Paul , it was a Generalization of those who may be in the Minority being ousted by the Majority, as my friend , having  seen this happen on several occasions when some dont agree with others,  the Many out do the few, hence me noting , dont" some come from the Closet when the the Benchmark has been set by some others", Or didnt you notice that thread I closed concerning the on going Free will theme?

It was out hope to allow liberty to the utmost but

Since  , a New announcment has been made in the Hope it EASE all what goes On behind the scenes you may not even Understand.

May I suggest if you do have a Problem with me or any other mod , then please feel free to pm :icon_flower:


I for one are found wanting many times

Blessings
Taffy

Paul Hazelwood

#107
December 10, 2008, 03:59:10 PM

Hi  AtPeace,


For the record, it was not Nathans beliefs that was at issue, that seemed to have been missed completely by everyone, but I will take the blame for that.   For that misunderstanding I apologize. And I apologize to you AtPeace for acting in a manner that has caused you to see a problem that is not really there now either.

As requested I will from now on address an issue like this privately should it occur again.

At peace

#108
December 11, 2008, 12:31:00 PM Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:42:54 PM by At peace
QuoteWow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure   

Rosered, your comments were completely uncalled for and very hurtful. I find it amazing that when I first starting posting here, you sent me a very kind personal massege, and now you write this. I was simply and honestly expressing an opinion, without hurtful language, it is a shame that I misjudged your character.  :sigh:

Taffy, your response was very cordial and appreciated, by such a response, you truly show your maturity in christ. I obviously misjudged you.

Paul, you have nothing to apologize for.

When I first came to tentmaker, I did not read the forums much. I stuck to reading the articles, I see now that I should have continued doing so. I have recently read many of the past and current forum posts. Since I have not posted much, I think of myself as rather objective, choosing not to involve myself in any of the ongoing discussions, until now. It is a shame that a person cannot post their honest opinion without being attacted by a small minority of posters who believe themselves to be above the rest. What I have noticed is that this small group of people, who share a very esoteric and mystical view. Full of allegorizations and personal thoughts, will attack as a group anyone who dares to disagree with them. The attack can be very subtle, such as sarcasm or condensation, or very aggresive, at times.

It seems that anyone who wishes to share a more traditional view, is soundly demeaned.

This brings me to the matter of SOTW.

After only reading two posts, I came across a very disturbing post by SOTW. I immediately assumed him the culprit, due to what I percieved as very hurtful words by him. I interjected, hoping with respect, to show him his error, but after reading the majority of past and current posts, I now realize, he was a victim of the above mentioned bahavior.

His early posts were very calm and respectful, but met with very subtle and purposeful sarcasm and condensation. This behavior increased, and so did his responses. If you carefully read through his posts, you will see his frustration and disallusionment build up. His more traditional (and in my opinion solid views) were drowned in a sea sarcasm. He eventually lashed out at everyone, even the innocent, but that was brought to fruition in him, by a small group of posters, who appeared to take pleasure in their condensation of others.

This forum has the potential for greatness. There are many here, who I have learned a great deal from. But, in my opinion, as it currently stands, strife is the order of the day for anyone who wishes to honestly and respectfully disagree.

To quote the venurable scholar and historian Rodney King "Cant we all just get along."  :laughing7: :happygrin:

At peace

Edit: excuse the misspellings, I wrote this at 4 am.

rosered

#109
December 11, 2008, 01:39:06 PM Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:41:52 PM by rosered
Quote from: At peace on December 11, 2008, 12:31:00 PM
QuoteWow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure   

Rosered, your comments were completely uncalled for and very hurtful. I find it amazing that when I first starting posting here, you sent me a very kind personal massege, and now you write this. I was simply and honestly expressing an opinion, without hurtful language, it is a shame that I misjudged your character.  :sigh:

At peace
Hi At peace ,

  Look i am sorry  but I was  also being honest , what is wrong with the expessing truth as you know it ?

 
you say how you feel and I did as well  ,
you are blessed if you never become angry, 
for me I have anger  issues at times .
the Truth is not always some sweet  gooey  fluffy treat ,
  It is brutal  at times , but  as many times I have been chastened by the Lord I KNOW it is for my own good  or anyones for that matter .

  peace, at  Peace   I meant no harm , just being honest , I am not a vain flatterer  to anyone 
I hate that and hate seeing it anyone especially me   :thumbsup:
and that  is  the only one i can do anything about

  your opinion , got a response from me , thats all  :dontknow:

  you had mine and I am sorry it hurt you  but  we must express 
our thoughts ,


thoughts , they come and go ,  forgive me 
I have already let  mine go about this 
God love you at peace always .. :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

SpiritualLiberty

#112
December 22, 2008, 04:04:54 PM
Bill Wiese is a liar. He quotes numerous scriptures throughout his book, most of which are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about. He continually grabs short phrases and sentences out the Bible and quotes them without showing you the context of the phrase, which makes it easy for him to read his own assumptions into it (yes, I actually looked up every single scripture he cites). The majority of Christians in modern America do not diligently read their Bibles anymore, which makes them easy prey for this kind of con job. But his bizarre fantastic story outrightly contradicts the Bible many times. Luke 16:27-31 (the Lord's parable of the rich man and Lazarus) says, "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Our Lord Himself is very clear that if men reject the Gospel, and they refuse to listen to those who proclaim the Word of God, they will never be persuaded, even if someone came back from the dead to witness to them—something even more miraculous than Wiese's alleged experience. Wiese himself specifically says, "One thing I was sure of: if what I had experienced was true, then I should be able to find proof of it in the Bible"; and, "I discovered that there are approximately 150 verses that reveal some aspect of hell, together confirming everything I had experienced." However, he does not even attempt to back up many of his claims from Scripture, such as deformed reptilian demons and big rats and spiders in hell. He cites many scriptures about demons attacking people on earth, but he never provides a shred of proof that demons can torment people in hell. And Wiese himself states that if he can't prove it from the Bible, then it is not true. Please see my review of "23 Minutes in Hell" at www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html.

Andromeda_Organa

#114
December 23, 2008, 05:30:01 PM
OTTP? What does that mean?

firstborn888

#115
December 24, 2008, 10:58:26 AM
Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 23, 2008, 05:30:01 PM
OTTP? What does that mean?
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